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Tab-Targetting PLEASE...

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  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by kryllen
    Call me crazy - but I want to play an MMO not an FPS - so please keep the FPS crap out of the game. FPS's are horrible skill-lite at best. Usually it boils down to map knowledge and ability to see the guy before he sees you....oh and whoever can spray and pray faster.

    don't forget rocking the OP shit!

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • VindicarVindicar ParisPosts: 134Member

    Very nice topic,  one that could divide a whole game community.

    Gratz .

     

    Gameplays evolves and changes, mostly.

    Gameplays are easely 50 to 80% responsible for enjoying or not a game. And enjoyement in a MMO is really subjectiv !

    In my opinion , old school tab-targetting-attacking is getting very old. I can enjoy it only in very smooth and fast-paced MMOs.

    Actionish gameplay are the future , get used to it.

    I am personnaly glad of what gameplays game editors are trying to manufacture since let's say... AoC... even if AoC failed I liked what FC tryed there.

     

    Imagine SWTOR with actionish-FPSish gameplay ? A la Jedi Knight ! Would no longer be the same crappy boring game we all know  and most of us get really tired of tab-=targetting since EQ and the others firsts complete MMOs.

    And YES of course I understand how tab-targeting does better with lag... BUT THIS IS PROBABLY THE ONLY PROS FOR IT !

    Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.

    I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
    Recently known as "Vindicar" (Aion (EU), SWTOR (EU), WoW (EU).
    Actually Known as "Wundicar" in Age of Wushu (US)

  • AselliaAsellia Salem, MAPosts: 154Member Uncommon

    First of all, I do prefer a more twitch-based/free aim system over one where you simply have to hit tab, and use some skills. While I am going to try not an argue "skill-level" itself, I do feel having to memorize a bunch of skill descriptinos is not exactly a difficult thing. Nor is aiming at people, really.

     

    In my opinion, a hybrid system could be quite good. Targeting can be fun, but perhaps make it so rather then make attacks home in; targeting will make it so you simply fire/aim/swing in their general direction. On top of this, having cover (That you can use), actual blocking (With directions), and so on could be a lot of fun. I know Chivalry, Mount and Blade, ect, all have great melee combat, that isn't as simple as "lol spam attack" unless the target is very new. You need to block in certain directions if parrying, and the environment plays a humungous part.

     

    Seeing a system where for example, you could set an area on fire, to make an enemy route around; or take cover for awhile, then they cast a ice storm over you, making you have to get out, and so on, could be a lot of fun. Having to think does NOT require 20000 skills to be memorized. That isn't exactly thinking either, just memorization. Strategy comes in MANY forms.

  • QallidexzQallidexz Austin, TXPosts: 253Member
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

    I don't think the people that are asking for true action combat mechanics understand the system at all in a game designed for very large scale PvP.  The system might work fluidly in a PvE game, but when there's 100 plus people are all moving, casting, attacking, and jumping..  do you guys HONESTLY think an action based system is going to work?  Answer truthfully.

    Each action has to be translated from server to client and back to server.  Each individual player's computer has to draw the polygons, display the spell effects, and communicate to the server in relationship with other player clients.  It's a recipe for disaster, even if this is 2013. 

    I'd be surprised if more than 50% of the people asking for true action "aiming" combat played Dark Age of Camelot back when the average user had an 800mhz with 512mb of ram and a video card that is on average as powerful as the most mediocre low end 'gaming ready' laptop that doesn't have an actual video card inside it.

    It truly boggles my mind.  I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.

    It's also important to note that the primary MMO that people are referencing, TERA, was originally a South Korean MMO.  What specifically differs in South Korea compared to North American style games across practically all genres types?  APM.  If you've never heard of it, it's called Action Per Minute.  

    Here's a video:  

    Sure, it's a video showing Starcraft APM .. but it's still rather relevant.  Korean ported MMOs typically play completely different verse North American alternatives.  Is it a 'wrong' format?  Absolutely not, but it heavily supports the 'run around like an idiot circle strafing' style of play.

    This discussion truly boggles my mind.  I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.  But, I really, really feel that the same people that are asking for aiming systems have no clue on how game development/programming or network infrastructures even work.  I really, really hope Mark Jacobs makes an announcement regarding specifics on the combat engine soon.

     

    Yea, this guy nailed it. +1

  • VoiidiinVoiidiin Barrow, AKPosts: 817Member

    I am an active PvP and RvR player in GW2 and TSW, was in Tera but that was really boring. I live in Barrow Alaska, the fastest internet here has a ping of 550-600 its very stable but its still really high. With that said i prefer the hybrid combat that GW2 uses, when i am in RvR lock on targeting allows me to still be competitive, in SPvP i can actually compete with action based combat.

    Maybe others need to have blazingly fast to feel like they are doing it well, but maybe i have just adapted to my lag ?

    I would be a fat liar if i did not have some days where my latency affected my gameplay, but 9 times out of 10 i do really well.

    TLDR: Hybrid combat simmilar to GW2 is my preference.

    Lolipops !

  • erkzulerkzul Thunder Bay, ONPosts: 16Member

    I don't think action based combat like Warband would work in an MMO.

    I love Warband, and have almost 700 hours played in it, most of that being multiplayer.

    However, multiplayer is only playable on one server for me, because I have a ping lower than 50. Anything over 50 breaks the game. It's way too laggy. This server is a small siege map, with 90 people max. 

    Imagine a full persistent world map, with thousands of players, it would be a nightmare.

     

    My vote is for 'tab-target' combat.

    I'm not sure why we are calling it that, I don't use tab to target enemies usually but I guess thats what we are going with.

    I'm not sure what the proper name for it would be.. strategic combat, timing based combat, classic RPG combat? I have no idea.

    I think 'tab target' combat is a bit misleading though and some people are misunderstanding how the combat works.

     

     

    Edit: Grammar

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member

    iv been calling it tab or traditional combat, tab is just shorter.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • VindicarVindicar ParisPosts: 134Member
    Originally posted by Qallidexz
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

    I don't think the people that are asking for true action combat mechanics understand the system at all in a game designed for very large scale PvP.  The system might work fluidly in a PvE game, but when there's 100 plus people are all moving, casting, attacking, and jumping..  do you guys HONESTLY think an action based system is going to work?  Answer truthfully.

    Each action has to be translated from server to client and back to server.  Each individual player's computer has to draw the polygons, display the spell effects, and communicate to the server in relationship with other player clients.  It's a recipe for disaster, even if this is 2013. 

    I'd be surprised if more than 50% of the people asking for true action "aiming" combat played Dark Age of Camelot back when the average user had an 800mhz with 512mb of ram and a video card that is on average as powerful as the most mediocre low end 'gaming ready' laptop that doesn't have an actual video card inside it.

    It truly boggles my mind.  I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.

    It's also important to note that the primary MMO that people are referencing, TERA, was originally a South Korean MMO.  What specifically differs in South Korea compared to North American style games across practically all genres types?  APM.  If you've never heard of it, it's called Action Per Minute.  

    Here's a video:  

    Sure, it's a video showing Starcraft APM .. but it's still rather relevant.  Korean ported MMOs typically play completely different verse North American alternatives.  Is it a 'wrong' format?  Absolutely not, but it heavily supports the 'run around like an idiot circle strafing' style of play.

    This discussion truly boggles my mind.  I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.  But, I really, really feel that the same people that are asking for aiming systems have no clue on how game development/programming or network infrastructures even work.  I really, really hope Mark Jacobs makes an announcement regarding specifics on the combat engine soon.

     

    Yea, this guy nailed it. +1

    He didn't nail crap...

     

    This is a completely narrow minded point of view.

    I have no problem with the next great MMO requiring hardcore hardware. If the experience requires it so be it.

    20 years ago online gaming did not exist. Then you mention DAoC... 10 years ago... Now go try planetside2 if you wanna see what is today's online massive gaming...

    I'm not a hard fan of the game at all but the technical prowess is very very inspiring for the future.

     

    So now... about the APM part... oh no nvm... I don't feel like feeding the troll anymore...

     

    EDIT : re-reading I'd also like to point out how this guy finishs his thread saying that, anyway, poeples thinking differently got no ideas what they are talking about...

    Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.

    I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
    Recently known as "Vindicar" (Aion (EU), SWTOR (EU), WoW (EU).
    Actually Known as "Wundicar" in Age of Wushu (US)

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member

    SOE's tech is light years ahead of anybody else's when it comes to MMO server technology, you wont see anybody replicating that for years to come and if you;re advocating that technology for this game, then you dont understand it.

    Forgelight is a client server hybrid or serverside hit prediction, all physics and what not are calculated by the client to reduce strain on the server but what the server does it keep a buffer of previous data with a timestamp, when you send a hit packet you all send it with a timestamp, the server rolls back its data to confirm that hit was possible. all well and good in an FPS, though you will see the occasional american QQing that they were killed around a corner by a lager and its not fair....thats the engine, what does it mean for an MMORPG though?

    well when me, mr Australian charge and stun you, even though on your screen you blocked, it rolls back the data and says you were in that spot at that time, you weren't blocking so i can hit and then stun you ....if you were moving it will warp you back to either where i say i stunned you or where the server says you were at that time, sounds fun huh?...may aswell leave it to random chance.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • VindicarVindicar ParisPosts: 134Member
    Originally posted by skyexile

    SOE's tech is light years ahead of anybody else's when it comes to MMO server technology, you wont see anybody replicating that for years to come and if you;re advocating that technology for this game, then you dont understand it.

    Forgelight is a client server hybrid or serverside hit prediction, all physics and what not are calculated by the client to reduce strain on the server but what the server does it keep a buffer of previous data with a timestamp, when you send a hit packet you all send it with a timestamp, the server rolls back its data to confirm that hit was possible. all well and good in an FPS, though you will see the occasional american QQing that they were killed around a corner by a lager and its not fair....thats the engine, what does it mean for an MMORPG though?

    well when me, mr Australian charge and stun you, even though on your screen you blocked, it rolls back the data and says you were in that spot at that time, you weren't blocking so i can hit and then stun you ....if you were moving it will warp you back to either where i say i stunned you or where the server says you were at that time, sounds fun huh?...may aswell leave it to random chance.

    Sure SOE are not the least and Yep have to agree, you perfectly sum' up the actual limitation.

    But this only applys to very long distance servers... Uniques worldwide servers have long time gone anyway and every decent game has servers all across the world. So not so much of an issue to me.... I mean sure if you're from australia it suck cuz you guys hardly get a region dedicated server... and I'm really sorry about that... And if mister Australian has to be region locked to avoid to both him and his opponent such a bad experience as you describe it ... so be it !

    And I'm pretty sure any decent develloper/prog could come out with decent tweaks to at least only disavantage the lagger.

    Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.

    I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
    Recently known as "Vindicar" (Aion (EU), SWTOR (EU), WoW (EU).
    Actually Known as "Wundicar" in Age of Wushu (US)

  • SysFailSysFail LondonPosts: 375Member
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

    I don't think the people that are asking for true action combat mechanics understand the system at all in a game designed for very large scale PvP.  The system might work fluidly in a PvE game, but when there's 100 plus people are all moving, casting, attacking, and jumping..  do you guys HONESTLY think an action based system is going to work?  Answer truthfully.

     

    Yes it works, take a look for yourself, there was around 400 involved in this siege. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te4P_1GPQ7w

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Sure as long as if it's a quasi-Tab targetting game similar to GW2.  If its gonna be like WoW then it would be a huge mistake, jsut like ArcheAge releasing with tab targeting is a mistake.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Sure as long as if it's a quasi-Tab targetting game similar to GW2.  If its gonna be like WoW then it would be a huge mistake, jsut like ArcheAge releasing with tab targeting is a mistake.

    id take wow's combat over GW2, smoothness > style. GW2 is the clunkiest POS iv ever played on.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,916Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rogue187
    you feel u should be swinging at what your faced?holy epiphony...like it isn't logic..i vfully support you previous poster...guesss what..u lazy , auto attack and go off to make a  sandwich in real life so why would anything made to mimic it allow it?  lazy ppl rts guru is calling...stop posying and hindering progress danke ;)

    I play RTS's for the experience they offer, I play BF3 or other FPS's for those experiences. I play TES games for their experience, and I played MMO's beginning in 2002 for the experience they offered.The latter is the only genre people want to change into something else entirely. Why not create a new genre for that or expand an existing one that was intended to offer that to begin with? Progress has killed what made this genre great to begin with IMO.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by Canan
    I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

    I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

     

    because basket weaving is just as skill based as juggling chainsaws on a tightrope.

    EVERYTHING IS EQUAL!

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • TorgenTorgen MoenchengladbachPosts: 154Member

    Okay.. the OP is complaining about "chaotic" combat in free target games and wants the combat system to be like the old DAoC. 

    Don't you remember "Your target is out of sight" or using positional styles on an enemy that is facing you?!

    There is no tab target game that I played in which people were abusing strafe and jump as much as in daoc. It was so fkin annoying because I usually stick to the rules and concept of a game but those strafemorons deemed it skill if you were able to strafe around in an epileptic way to land your backstun on an enemy that had /face activated.

     

    Conclusion: Even in tab target games people strafe and jump around like morons

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by Smorak
    Originally posted by dethlord
    Originally posted by Canan
    Please use tab targeting. Action based games, in my experience, just turn into mashing buttons over and over.

    same with tab targetting games, it just has you hit tab before you begin mashing.

    What tab targetting does is relieve you of tracking your target and lowers the skill required to maintain a focus on the same target.  

    It makes the games easier for people who have a hard time keeping track of a target WHILE ALSO keeping track of all the other apects of gameplay. 

    Tab targetting lowers the potential skill cap in a game and the only reason to do that is to make the game more accessible to the lowest common denominator.

     

    If you notice, none of these non "tab targetting" games ever use more than a handful of skills.

    P.S. "Tab targetting" is not a system of a game.  It is an option, a tool, for the player.

     

    wrong.   to be really effective in Darkfall 1 you needed at least 5 hotbars (many players had closer to 10) full of abilities/spells, and you had to do the whack-a-mole thing SIMULTANEOUSLY along with the Quake thing.

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by kryllen
     Usually it boils down to map knowledge and ability to see the guy before he sees you....oh and whoever can spray and pray faster.

     

    yeah.  and thats a lot more skill based than who can roll his dice harder than the other guy.  8)

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • CananCanan Wedowee, ALPosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by corpusc
    Originally posted by Canan
    I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

    I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

     

    because basket weaving is just as skill based as juggling chainsaws on a tightrope.

    EVERYTHING IS EQUAL!

    Yes, tab targeting based games are to twitch based games as basket weaving is to juggling chainsaws on a tightrope. I'll give you points for originality but the facts are still the same - the skills (again you are making me use the term skill) which both games require are unique and should not be compared. So, stop, collaborate and listen: both genres are fun and require relatively low to average thinking and motor skills to excel. Please stop being condescending just because you prefer a particular average-level thinking process over someone else's.

  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 494Member Uncommon

    Just keep the targetting system like DAOC. 

     

    I mean does anyone wanna go on the record as saying that Tera is more awesome than DAOC in this regard?  Again, get your FPS out or my RPG!!!

    image
  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by Canan
    Originally posted by corpusc
    Originally posted by Canan
    I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

    I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

     

    because basket weaving is just as skill based as juggling chainsaws on a tightrope.

    EVERYTHING IS EQUAL!

    Yes, tab targeting based games are to twitch based games as basket weaving is to juggling chainsaws on a tightrope. I'll give you points for originality but the facts are still the same - the skills (again you are making me use the term skill) which both games require are unique and should not be compared. So, stop, collaborate and listen: both genres are fun and require relatively low to average thinking and motor skills to excel. Please stop being condescending just because you prefer a particular average-level thinking process over someone else's.

     

    completely wrong, from top to bottom.  

    hint: everything is not equal 

     

    here's an example that you might possibly be able to understand, since the other one confused you.

     

     

    "brain surgery is no more complicated than finger painting"

     

     

    now, lets try to avoid getting hopelessly confused here.  

    i'm NOT saying tab target is finger painting.

    i'm NOT saying that action combat is brain surgery

     

    i'm making a point that you said something completely wrong.

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • ChakaCanChakaCan San Antonio, TXPosts: 22Member
    Originally posted by time007

    Just keep the targetting system like DAOC. 

     

    I mean does anyone wanna go on the record as saying that Tera is more awesome than DAOC in this regard?  Again, get your FPS out or my RPG!!!

    I loved Daoc better than any game to date.  BUT Tera's combat system is better than Daoc.  There.

  • erkzulerkzul Thunder Bay, ONPosts: 16Member
    Originally posted by ChakaCan
    Originally posted by time007

    Just keep the targetting system like DAOC. 

     

    I mean does anyone wanna go on the record as saying that Tera is more awesome than DAOC in this regard?  Again, get your FPS out or my RPG!!!

    I loved Daoc better than any game to date.  BUT Tera's combat system is better than Daoc.  There.

     

    I haven't played Tera but if its anything like GW2 combat, I don't want to see anything like that in CU.

    I have to side with time007, I would like to see something similar to DAoC combat.

  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 494Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ChakaCan
    Originally posted by time007

    Just keep the targetting system like DAOC. 

     

    I mean does anyone wanna go on the record as saying that Tera is more awesome than DAOC in this regard?  Again, get your FPS out or my RPG!!!

    I loved Daoc better than any game to date.  BUT Tera's combat system is better than Daoc.  There.

     

    Yeah, your right Tera's combat system is better than DAOC's if you like first person shooters.  If you like RPG's then you should be leaning toward DAOC's side of the spectrum away from the MMOFPS/RPG blend crap we've seen in recent years.

    image
  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by ChakaCan
    Originally posted by time007

    Just keep the targetting system like DAOC. 

     

    I mean does anyone wanna go on the record as saying that Tera is more awesome than DAOC in this regard?  Again, get your FPS out or my RPG!!!

    I loved Daoc better than any game to date.  BUT Tera's combat system is better than Daoc.  There.

    A good rule of thumb when making a spiritial successor to a game is to not tranform that game into a different genre.  Making a traditional MMRPG into an action MMORPG will just alienate a large portion of the core audience who doesnt want it.  

    There are some good suggestions in this thread, like the notion of cover.  ANother thing I am shocked no one has ever used since is VGs dual targeting sytem where you can have an offensive target and a defensive target.

    TERA did prove one thing: combat without a good context for it is worthless.

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