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Free to play: The death of gaming?

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  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
    Originally posted by Mors.Magne

     

    In my opinion, WoW is the classic subsription-based game and the problem I find with this model is that I waste a bit of my subsription when I stop playing it.

     

    I see this argument all the time and never understand it.

    Do you have a cell phone? How much of your monthly fee is wasted because you're not talking on it 24/7?

    Do you have cable? How do you justify such an expense when every time you look away from the television you are wasting your sub fee?

    It just blows my mind that people have no problem paying $50+ a month on a cell phone and $100+ a month for cable, yet they'll bitch about $15 a  month for interactive entertainment.

     

    I do have an iPhone and I use pay-as-you go.  However, having a phone is essential these days (like heating and electricity) - it's a 'need' not a 'want', so you shouldn't be comparing it to a game.

    I use 'cable' every day for work. PCs are also used for business, you know!

    $15 doesn't seem like very much, but if you add together tiny expenses it can come to an awful lot - so you have to be careful - this is just good housekeeping. Particularly in this economic environment, and today the EU predicted a further period of economic downturn.

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

     

    1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

    2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

    3) P2W cash shops

    4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

    5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

    6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

    7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

    8) daily quests

    9) flying mounts

    10) culling

    11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

    12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

    This is a very interesting post. I'm reminded of WoW for some reason!

    I think "9) flying mounts" is the most interesting suggestion - on reflection, having a flying mount turns a quest list from an adventure into a shopping list.

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    I believe it is the other way around. F2P model has brought more players back to MMOS and actually gave a new life to MMOS which otherwise would have shut down.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,995Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

     

    1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

    2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

    3) P2W cash shops

    4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

    5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

    6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

    7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

    8) daily quests

    9) flying mounts

    10) culling

    11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

    12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

    As you state above, there's lots of reasons for the failure of the modern MMORPG to hold a large audience over the long term, (it might not actually be possible outside of WOW) and few can name a successful subscription MMORPGn (again, outside of WOW or EVE)  in recent years either.

    The payment model doesn't determine the success or failure of a game, though it certainly can influence the game design in such a way that may be viewed negatively by a portion of the gaming market.

    In fact, I recently came back to Aion just because it was now F2P and has a model that I can live with.

    (Actually I wish it had some items that I really valued, can't find anything I want worth buying to support the title)

     

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rhinotones
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

     

    1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

    2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

    3) P2W cash shops

    4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

    5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

    6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

    7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

    8) daily quests

    9) flying mounts

    10) culling

    11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

    12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

    Is what you're suggesting is that MMO's need a new model that addresses the points you've mentioned because what you've said is a very big statement considering many mmo's impliment a number of these points. Can you provide alternatives to your 12 point summation?

    Sure.

    1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

    2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

    3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

    4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

    5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

    6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

    7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

    8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

    9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

    11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

    12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • BjelarBjelar RullumpPosts: 384Member

    2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

     

    But we will have the game to ourselves :(

    Look at TSW's feeble attempt to be "punnishing" (yeah, right).

    People won't have it. 

    What happened to perma-death? If you die, how come you're back and kicking ten sec later?

    The problem as I see it is that people ask for things they don't actually want. Look at the sandbox people. Whenever a sandbox comes along, noone plays, and even fewer pays.

    Come to think of it, I'm no better. I kind of like to feel competent even if I'm not.

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member
    It is the players!
  • EdeusEdeus Stamford, CTPosts: 506Member

    I feel like the real argument here isn't FTP or P2P or P2W.... it's just hardcore players vs casual players (as usual).

     

    My Reasoning:

    It seems like Hardcore players prefer the P2P method because they have all the time in the world to play the game, and thus can achieve/succeed in a game where time is the only factor for success.  And Casual players prefer P2W and FTP because they aren't paying a monthly subscription, and can get ahead with 3 easy payments of 99 99 99!  Of course the guy who just spent 36 hours to be the best will hate the guy who just spent money to be the best, and vice versa.

     

    And thus, endless forum arguments ensue about FTP or P2P or whatever the new payment is, and endless discussions about casuals destroying the hardcore gamer's game, ruining the community, etc.  All this bitterness over who has time to pour into an MMO and who doesn't...

     

    PS: since hardcore gamers of course have all this time on their hands to play games, naturally they have time to endlessly troll forums whining about casuals, and payment methods, etc.

    image

    Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by Rhinotones
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

     

    1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

    2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

    3) P2W cash shops

    4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

    5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

    6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

    7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

    8) daily quests

    9) flying mounts

    10) culling

    11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

    12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

    Is what you're suggesting is that MMO's need a new model that addresses the points you've mentioned because what you've said is a very big statement considering many mmo's impliment a number of these points. Can you provide alternatives to your 12 point summation?

    Sure.

    1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

    2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

    3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

    4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

    5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

    6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

    7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

    8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

    9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

    11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

    12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

    But it doesn't sell. 

    See, the problem is not F2P or P2P. The problem is MMOs are designed with the market as it is nowadays, several years after WoW release. Back before that happned MMOs maybe had 100-300k players, the really popular ones had up to 500k, but mention such number these days (except EVE) and you get called a failure. 

    The very same community that asks for all those "old school" features is the community that calls a game with less than million players a complete and utter waste of internet space basing it purely on the playerbase numbers. 

    Games are made for large crowd because that's where the money is, that's where you can get "decent" playerbase at, and that's why they are more player friendly than challenge oriented. 

    Then also comes the sheer volume of choice you have. MMOs are forced to compete one with eachother because if do not like the features of game A you can just go to game B or C or all the way up to Z. 

    Bottom line is If you want a game that is clsoer to pre WoW-era MMOs you should be ready and willing to accept smaller community, possibility of visuals not being on par with big AAA titles and overall hate from the rest of the gaming community  because no companyw ill throw unlimited resources at something that won't bring huge profits in long term. 

  • PertobiPertobi Alamo, TNPosts: 2Member

      Well as a long time mmorpg subscriber starting with Eq for many years, then WoW, I was kind of at a mmorpg standstill, until EQ2 went to FTP, I had played EQ2 when it first came out and it didnt catch me, but logging in to try  it again when they went FTP, I was shocked and amazed what an amazing game EQ2 had become for my taste anyways.

     Within two weeks I had subscribed to a Gold membership so I had complete access and the game still has me hooked almost a year later. So from a marketing standpoint the FTP got me to try there game again and I ended up a subscriber, smart business model. I have even purchased two expansions. So anyone who liked  EQ or any mmorpg for that matter and has not tried EQ2 for a while I would recommend at taking a look with the FTP model and see what you think.

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member


    Originally posted by Edeus
    I feel like the real argument here isn't FTP or P2P or P2W.... it's just hardcore players vs casual players (as usual). My Reasoning:It seems like Hardcore players prefer the P2P method because they have all the time in the world to play the game, and thus can achieve/succeed in a game where time is the only factor for success.  And Casual players prefer P2W and FTP because they aren't paying a monthly subscription, and can get ahead with 3 easy payments of 99 99 99!  Of course the guy who just spent 36 hours to be the best will hate the guy who just spent money to be the best, and vice versa. And thus, endless forum arguments ensue about FTP or P2P or whatever the new payment is, and endless discussions about casuals destroying the hardcore gamer's game, ruining the community, etc.  All this bitterness over who has time to pour into an MMO and who doesn't... PS: since hardcore gamers of course have all this time on their hands to play games, naturally they have time to endlessly troll forums whining about casuals, and payment methods, etc.

    totally agree!

    may be the fact that devs can't make hardcore only / casual only games can "kill" community.
    game itself gonna die only it has many fails /not attractive to any of these groups.

    I keep telling: each game need to have at least 1 hardcore server with endless grind, no hints, no mounts, no portals, tons of aggressive mobs, highly skilled Bosses and other horrors. Just one, as I doubt about it's huge popularity.

    PvP can be buy to win, why not? it FREE game after all = FREE choice for you not to PvP or pay for it.
    need cheap PvP game equal to all: try GW2. Boring?
    then or pay sub, or buy might or grind for it, or loose PvP.

    buy-to-win games, are few of these, seems to be less attractive to players at least as they cost pretty too much.

    f2p is great model for casual players, that why they have such great success. Beside after few bad boxes, I rather try free then buy hype.

    and last thought: p2p kills community way faster as the day you can't pay you'r out.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • VyethVyeth Fayetteville, NCPosts: 1,459Member

    I feel like it's only the death of gaming because it gives players the ability to effortlessly jump in and out of a game without offering up one single penny of support to the developer.. Even if they like the game enough to play for 2 months until the next "big" F2P releases, they can just hop ship without any donation or support to keep the game alive. People claim to dislike P2W, but even when the shop is cosmetic only, they complain that there is nothing "good" to buy so again they refuse to help keep the game above water..

    F2P is a sleazy, no commitment way for a player to use a game as a stone until another new F2P launches and they can simply just leap to the next stone. This isn't in the spirit of competition either, competition is when they have options based on what is offered however in the MMO space it all depends on release dates and hype trains which may or may not be based on factual information just blind faith and fandom.

    Charging a price to get in not only increases the value of your product (EVERY P2P game that has gone F2P after at least a year has seen a 200% increase n population at least for a few weeks after launch, meaning that there WERE people really wanting to play the game and seen value in it somewhere), but I think it offers up a sense of commitment of support at least so if they play it at all, then they have told the developer "ya know, here is what you may be due for your time however I may or may not continue to pay you"

    BUY2PLAY is where the industry needs to be.. TSW and GW2 are very good models on where the industry should take it's development. You buy the box and you OWN the content contained in the MMO. No need to nickel and dime for content supposed to be included in the software at purchase like SWTOR has done, I feel that was wrong and it was the wrong way to go with the game.

    There would still be a barrier to entry which most of us are use to, well if you've purchased ANY game in your life time (got to throw that out because some people simple torrent everything and literally have no respect for any industry or commerce at all), and I feel that it would alow games to stay afloat longer than they been having a chance to.

    People smile when they see a game sink into the water and a company fade away, but thats like calling yourself a pet lover and celebrating when an animal is sent to the kill-shelter down the road.. It defeats the purpose of calling yourself a fan.. We need to find a way to support our industry and stop proving why this genre should just melt away into proven sellers like Call of Duty and Gears of War..

    image

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAPosts: 1,593Member Uncommon

    So, lets look at how software as a service has worked for prior products..

     

    How many of you here have emails? How many of you pay for your email accounts? Hmm.. Free has worked pretty well.

    How many of you search for stuff on the web? How many of you pay for this? Hmm.. Free has worked pretty well.

    How many of you have a social media account (facebook, etc)? How many of you pay for this? Hmm.. Free has worked pretty well.

     

     

    Video games have progressed from a product you buy, to a service that you use. They are following a pattern that has worked well for other services, and will most likley have the same results. There is nothing new here...

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,485Member Uncommon

    Free 2 Play has it's advantages and disadvantages...

    First off, it's free which means more people are likely to at least try it versus a P2P model with a smaller community. Secondly, F2P doesn't make you feel forced to play because you're not paying for the time your playing. Lastly, F2P allows games to actually utilize cash shops without players feeling like they are being ripped off.

    As for the downside to F2P, the fact pretty much anyone can play it without financial contribution means you'll most likely see a lot of cheaters or basically a poor community with foul mouthed immature individuals debunking the whole immersion factor. You will also see F2P games that aren't doing so well with their "fluff cash shops" converting to a "Pay to Win" model instead. Lastly, your not going to see a lot of player dedication to groups or guilds as I mentioned above, no one will feel financially obligated to play the game.

    What do I personally think about F2P games vs. P2P? Well, unless games like WoW which still utilize the P2P model actually use some of that funding to stop cheaters or gold farmers from plaguing the community, I'll just play F2P games which offer the same thing at no cost to me.

    image

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by Rhinotones
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

     

    1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

    2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

    3) P2W cash shops

    4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

    5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

    6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

    7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

    8) daily quests

    9) flying mounts

    10) culling

    11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

    12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

    Is what you're suggesting is that MMO's need a new model that addresses the points you've mentioned because what you've said is a very big statement considering many mmo's impliment a number of these points. Can you provide alternatives to your 12 point summation?

    Sure.

    1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

    2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

    3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

    4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

    5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

    6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

    7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

    8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

    9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

    11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

    12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

     Brilliant! I agree with everything you've said!   :)

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Bjelar
    Originally posted by boxsnd Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs: 1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots) 2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers" 3) P2W cash shops 4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...) 5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though) 6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing 7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids) 8) daily quests 9) flying mounts 10) culling 11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies 12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)
    1) But most players are obnoxious (worse than me, even,) no wonder people will rather go solo :D

    2) Agreed. The obnoxious lot likes it easy. (Gimme-gimme-gimme a purple b'fore midnight).

    3) Because the cheap obnoxious guys want it all for free. Someone has to pay.

    4) The obnoxious guys have a short attention span. Give them a proper world to explore, and they will be off to GW2 before you know it (flame intended).

    5) I have no idea what any of that means, but I don't like the look of "AH"s for sure.

    6) I'm not sure why this is killing gaming, but I'll take your word for it.

    7) I have already forgotten about the empty or overcrowded non-instanced games. Don't remind me of it.

    8) Play a game as a substitute for the job you haven't got. Fun is for losers.

    9) Dragons shouldn't be pink. That's just wrong.

    10) There's nothing like a surprise.

    11) They are trying to offset the obnoxious guys on a personal vendetta of hate because the developers care about other things then their own private requests. Did I say requests? I ment demands.

    12) Paying players. What an abomination.


    ROFL, hilarious. Reply 5, in particular, cracked me up.

    Yep, you are both right. Brilliant summation, boxsnd.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,747Member Uncommon
    The pricing model has nothing to do with the death of gaming....Companies have to make money to survive and for many that is the best model...Its also the best model for most of us gamers......With 581 games listed here alone (and there are more than that) I'm not wanting to pay to try out every MMO......I like having the f2p option and then when I find something I like I will pay......
  • EsLafielEsLafiel Radford, VAPosts: 92Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by Rhinotones
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

     

    1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

    2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

    3) P2W cash shops

    4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

    5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

    6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

    7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

    8) daily quests

    9) flying mounts

    10) culling

    11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

    12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

    Is what you're suggesting is that MMO's need a new model that addresses the points you've mentioned because what you've said is a very big statement considering many mmo's impliment a number of these points. Can you provide alternatives to your 12 point summation?

    Sure.

    1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

    2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

    3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

    4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

    5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

    6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

    7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

    8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

    9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

    11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

    12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

    I pretty much agree with everything you said,,,

     

    However number 4 where you talk about gw2, only the basic stuff is mark.  All of the really hard locations or the best locations are never mark.  So yes it be cool if none of it was mark, however at lest they made the coolest places, where ya gotta find them.

  • WalderalWalderal MünsterPosts: 8Member

    In fact, I recently came back to Aion just because it was now F2P and has a model that I can live with.

     

     

     

     

    Because of the same reason I do not play in AION anymore ...

    Before all were in the same position, now sure all people do not want to pay when it is possible not to pay. But the disadvantages of free game are so awful that killing all interest to the game.

     

    Also I have heard that the fees to play have no commection with quality of support or game, anyways 80-90% of money going on advertising.

    But anyways I prefer P2P because I do not want to pay when it is possible. In F2P appear people who pay and I feel not comdortable because they have advantage, so they will be better in pvp or trade or crafting. In Aion such model isolates you, you cannot use trade, so you have to sell all by yourself, in guilds I am not going because I do not like to be forced to play when I do not want and to visit game just like a job.

    Never complain
    image

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Souldrainer

    Over at the Grim Dawn forums, there is also a thread about this.  It pointed out the many perils of FTP models and what happens when people play these types of games.  I grew curious as to what gamers at large would have to say of this.  So, what say you?

     Sounds like the people over at Grim Dawn know nothing about the genre. The first F2P game came out BEFORE Ultima Online.

    Nexon Co, was built on F2P games over the last 15 years and they spent over 400 million dollars last year buying out companies and investing in others....like NCsoft, which they now own 15% of. F2P is not new, you are just seeing it recently because western studies have been behind the game...mostly because they thought screwing customers was the best way to make money, and being the closed minded fools they are, it took a while to actually learn better.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

    If it needs to be forced, what is the fun? If i want to social, i will type in a chat channel. I don't play games to social.

    2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

    "Challenging" is different for everyone. Make a difficulty option like in D3. Problem solved.

    3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

    What is wrong with P2W? If someone is subsidiing your game, isn't it fair that they have some advantage? Plus, there is no "W" in pve.

    4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

    I don't play game to be a cartographer. I have done that in the original Might & Magic. It is trivial, easy, not challengning and boring.

    5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

    Most games have trade channels. They are not as efficient as AH. Won't play a game without an AH.

    6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

    Most game still have /lfg channels. Why would you want to take 1-button cross-server away from those who like it? Don't use it if you don't like it. I don't play games to spend 20 min in chat channel before going into a dungeon.

    7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

    I love instances. No more camping. More more other groups interfering with your gameplay. Better design of mechanics for known composition. Can do scripted stories much better.

    8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

    This i agree.

    9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

    Does not matter in what form, as long as there is fast travel.

    11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

    No that is only ONE of the reason. Other reasons include no comittment gaming, and easy game hopping. Oh, and competition. If i can have fun at zero cost, why should i pay a sub.

    12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

    As long as a F2P game is fun, there is no reason not to at least try.

     

  • nottunednottuned st.paul, MNPosts: 92Member
    free to play crowd needs to be cut from mmo's like a bad cancer. if you an call them mmo's, these games play like a single player game on easy mode with  a chat room. cut them and the tears loose, dont look back
  • EtherignisEtherignis philadelphia, PAPosts: 246Member
    Originally posted by Rhinotones

    I believe the old saying is true, that you get what you pay for. A decent portion of the MMO community would expect regular updates, patches, hotfixes, expansions etc as a part of the service of a quality game. 

    To be able to continue to provide these quality services costs $.

    I believe that there's room for all but the ones that want the shiney new toys will happily pay for them and the ones that don't want to pay may not get them.

    Rhino.

    This^

  • ElectricWizardElectricWizard Chicago, ILPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Bad games are bad games it doesn't matter how their payment set up works. Statments like " the death of gaming " are just for the drama queens out there.

    exactly this.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ElectricWizard
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Bad games are bad games it doesn't matter how their payment set up works. Statments like " the death of gaming " are just for the drama queens out there.

    exactly this.

    I'll second that. imageimage

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

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