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"US free-to-play audience outnumbers pay-to-play 6 to 1"

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  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    I know no one's gonna listen to what I say now but meh... worth a try:

    15 dollars a month isn't the only way to pay for a game gents, in F2P games where cash shop currency can change hands you can, as a player, pay in a sense for the game via your time spent earning things to trade for the cash shop currency thus providing demand for said currency and in turn fueling the desire of people with less time and more money to spend their real world cash on cash shop currency and trade it in. Simple system, simple logic, works bloody well and it's why I keep going back to STO form time to time ^^.

    I listened to you. Being reasonable is apparently not an option on this subject. Calling everyone that enjoys F2P ten year olds in order to make themselves feel better about who they are and the decisions they make is more important to most people apparently. They're just so damned insecure.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    ok, what did I miss?

    Short version: Everything.

    What you just described is a crappy F2P game which doesn't have any emergent player driven economy and is as bad as a gear treadmill/static themepark P2P game.

     

    My strong advice: Go out there and play some F2P games without paying a dime for em, see how far you get, what sort of people you meet, etc,etc. You might just be surprised by what you find if you give it a chance (I will freely admit you will find games who will play exactly like you said but there are gems out there).

    you people...

     

    give us titles of these f2ps to try. stop telling us we're not looking in the right place but without telling us where the right place is.

     

    "go paly some f2p games"...okay, which? there's hundreds of them. which of them should be try ?

    Shot answer: All of em, you need to know what to look for, I've played... dozens of F2P games, hell almost hundreds, most I can't even remember because they were a cookie cutter as the much bemoaned WoW clones of the P2P world.

    Some games worth a try though (F2P, not neccesarily MMOs but at least have some persistent elements to em):

    League of Legends

    World of Tanks

    World of Warplanes

    Star Trek Online (past experience does not count, reroll a fed toon and get cracking)

    Wurm Online

    Age of Wushu (grindy as fuck but still fair)

    Firefall (if you want I got some invites to spare)

    Navyfield 1 (some call it pay to win... they don't have enough neurons to know you can trade for every cash shop item in the game with credits with other players, I got a full elited, vetted crew on a Andrea Doria on the US NF 1 to prove it ,2 is coming out in a few month's time but it is a vastly different beast so I donno what changes have been made)

    EVE-Online (laugh if you want but if you want but I've only paid 50 euros for that game in the years I've played it, since I got up to level 4 missions I've bought my time with ISK :) so the game can be classed even as a B2P/F2P hybrid)

    Entropia Universe (this is a job MMO, it is brutal and the only job you can do without having to invest first is sweating, it's basically sweatshop level stuff but, F2P game, you can earn your way forward and I did, took me 6 months but I did manage to become a miner and get some manufacturing skills up before Real life stole me away, high-school leaving exams)

     

    I can state more if you want but these games cover most of the spectrum from totally free to play (with a large or huge time investement) to partially free to play (but the items offered in the cash shop are not pay to win, they offer early to mid game advantages but no advantage in the late game).

     

     

    image
  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member

    Man ... really so many of you are that poor that you must complain about 15 bucks per month? For real? Just dont go to KFC/MC every day and you will be ready to go :)

     

    15 bucks heh.. I spent about 500-600 euro on Guild wars 2 already.

     

    P2P/B2P > F2P.

     

    P2P will always have better community and will always be taken as better game because it can afford the model. F2P games cant afford to be B2P or P2P ... simple as that.

     

    Even the fact that you see soooooo many garbage F2P games that nobody wants to play proves it. The worst part of F2P games is that its FREE to everyone. Every troll, every reta*d, every noob without any other requirements than download and registartion. Half of these playes just download game and troll because they dont care, they got baned? Whatever I create new account and troll again :D Or how many of them just play the game and spam the chat about how shitty the game is and that everyone who enjoy the game is retarded :D

     

    F2P .. No thank you :D

     

     

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    ok, what did I miss?

    Short version: Everything.

    What you just described is a crappy F2P game which doesn't have any emergent player driven economy and is as bad as a gear treadmill/static themepark P2P game.

     

    My strong advice: Go out there and play some F2P games without paying a dime for em, see how far you get, what sort of people you meet, etc,etc. You might just be surprised by what you find if you give it a chance (I will freely admit you will find games who will play exactly like you said but there are gems out there).

    you people...

     

    give us titles of these f2ps to try. stop telling us we're not looking in the right place but without telling us where the right place is.

     

    "go paly some f2p games"...okay, which? there's hundreds of them. which of them should be try ?

    Shot answer: All of em, you need to know what to look for, I've played... dozens of F2P games, hell almost hundreds, most I can't even remember because they were a cookie cutter as the much bemoaned WoW clones of the P2P world.

    Some games worth a try though (F2P, not neccesarily MMOs but at least have some persistent elements to em):

    League of Legends

    World of Tanks

    World of Warplanes

    Star Trek Online (past experience does not count, reroll a fed toon and get cracking)

    Wurm Online

    Age of Wushu (grindy as fuck but still fair)

    Firefall (if you want I got some invites to spare)

    Navyfield 1 (some call it pay to win... they don't have enough neurons to know you can trade for every cash shop item in the game with credits with other players, I got a full elited, vetted crew on a Andrea Doria on the US NF 1 to prove it ,2 is coming out in a few month's time but it is a vastly different beast so I donno what changes have been made)

    EVE-Online (laugh if you want but if you want but I've only paid 50 euros for that game in the years I've played it, since I got up to level 4 missions I've bought my time with ISK :) so the game can be classed even as a B2P/F2P hybrid)

    Entropia Universe (this is a job MMO, it is brutal and the only job you can do without having to invest first is sweating, it's basically sweatshop level stuff but, F2P game, you can earn your way forward and I did, took me 6 months but I did manage to become a miner and get some manufacturing skills up before Real life stole me away, high-school leaving exams)

     

    I can state more if you want but these games cover most of the spectrum from totally free to play (with a large or huge time investement) to partially free to play (but the items offered in the cash shop are not pay to win, they offer early to mid game advantages but no advantage in the late game).

    LotRO

    DDO

    Planetside 2 - not rpg

    SWTOR

    AION

    DC Universe

    Path of Exile - not massive

    GW2 and TSW - B2P

     

    Many upcoming games are going this route. There is a lot of solid competition out there right now.

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    Originally posted by Tazlor
    I would rather pay a sub. If you actually want to get into any F2P game you'll eventually have to shell out a few hundred bucks.

    not the ones which also offer an oldschool sub

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
    .


    .
    The Return of ELITE !
    image

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    deleted
  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member

    Age of Conan has the best F2P model.

    They don't reduce your XP or credits gain.

    They don't force the ingame store in your face every 30 seconds in every gui window.

    After 30 levels you just WANT to buy something from the store or subscribe, because the game is simply cool.

    That is a F2P model to like

     

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
    .


    .
    The Return of ELITE !
    image

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member

    Anyway :) This dicussion wont have winner ... Ever. Everyone has different priorities and oppinions. so yeaaa

     

     

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon

    I can't believe people take this seriously knowing that they are including Farmville in numbers.

    So, who actually paid 700 bucks to read their study, all the people that won't pay for a measly 15 sub, yeah, I buy that.

    OP you have linked this study or one like it before, I remember that site.

     

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    Man ... really so many of you are that poor that you must complain about 15 bucks per month? For real? Just dont go to KFC/MC every day and you will be ready to go :)

     

    15 bucks heh.. I spent about 500-600 euro on Guild wars 2 already.

     

    ...

    F2P .. No thank you :D

    You spent 500+ euro on GW 2 and then you say no thank you to F2P? You do realise that GW 2 is using the F2P model with the only difference that they charge for the box?

    I mean, people who spend like you do is the reason why F2P is a success.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    ok, what did I miss?

    Short version: Everything.

    What you just described is a crappy F2P game which doesn't have any emergent player driven economy and is as bad as a gear treadmill/static themepark P2P game.

     

    My strong advice: Go out there and play some F2P games without paying a dime for em, see how far you get, what sort of people you meet, etc,etc. You might just be surprised by what you find if you give it a chance (I will freely admit you will find games who will play exactly like you said but there are gems out there).

    except I have.

    I've played Aion and I've played LOTRO.

    Since I don't believe in getting something for nothing I usually look for something to buy if I'm enjoying myself.

    So go ahead, if there are gems out there other than Aion and Lotro that you think are worth it I will gladly look into them. But be forwarned I've tried just about every game that's out there. What do I see? The same thing that I've described.

    Tried Age of Conan,

    Currently playing Tera, log into Vanguard from time to time, currently playing The Secret world and I log into Guild Wars 2 from time to time though that is a buy to play game so it functions "a little" differently.

    Of course played some of the crappy asian games like perfect world or Shaiya.

     

    edit: ok just saw your list. Really? Really?

    League of Legends (I was told by a coworker that I would not like this game because of the community and my feeling on commnity. Not even interested in this type of game play and this is not an mmo)

    World of Tanks (don't care about tanks)

    World of Warplanes (dont' care about warplanes)

    Star Trek Online (past experience does not count, reroll a fed toon and get cracking) (this is one I played prior to f2p and it didn't hook me, especially because they made the combat easier than launch)

    Wurm Online (looked at it not interested.

    Age of Wushu (grindy as fuck but still fair) grinds don't bother me, this one is one I've considered but the jury is out on whether one needs to buy things to be competitive)

    Firefall (if you want I got some invites to spare) (don't care, don't like pseudo sci-fi or at least I won't stick with sci-fi. I will watch it though.)

    Navyfield 1  (not interested in "real" war like the other tanks/warplanes games)

    EVE-Online (this is the game I should like but for my taste I think it would tale alot of my time to get isk when I really hate making money in these games. Making money to buy plex to play free isn't my idea of fun. I don't care about paying a sub so for all intents and purposes this is a sub game)

    Entropia Universe (lol no sorry. I looked into this game, not to my taste). And from what I can see it is about spending money to be competitive).

     

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by twrule

    I'm sorry, but your analogy to the Cello teacher is flawed. Of course a teacher would rather have a small handful of dedicated students - but in an mmo, developers (and players) do want more traffic, even if a good portion of it is 'transient'. Players want to feel like they are in a populated world, and devs want publicity and potential direct income from those players. And since you'll have both the dedicated tight-knit community and the transient population anyway, the fact that p2p keeps transients down is no coherent argument for those who seek a tight-knit community to want a p2p game.

    Thta's true it is flawed but the thrust of that and my point was "engaged and serious people will pay for quality and be very invested in what they pay for".

    Of course if I can have a house without paying money or a car or eat out every night then I'd take advantage of that. Of course if I can play a game for free why wouldn't I? But the reality is that developers aren't doing this out of the goodness of their heart, they need money.

    I do agree that it's up to the developers or game companies to be mindful of how they work the monitization of the game.

    But the reality is that they want, need, people to buy things. So they throw in some stuff that they hope is going to lure people to spend a few bucks. This is B.S. Look at Aion, not making the bucks. And it's a decent game. One of the few games that I think is even worth a sub.

    Instead, maybe developers they can actually work on a game that players want to play and are willing to pay their sub because they see value. But developers have been short on value lately.

    What f2p has done is to create a weird sort of pyramid scheme. people come in, some will pay a bit here and there and they will leave and the cycle continues.

    And it's true, people who don't pay become the "content" for the paying players. Some might be serious about the game, some might just be passing through but in the end it becomes a diluting of the community where one has to actually search out for the players who are invested in the game.

    I've seen it in LOTRO and the same with Aion. I used to know people in both games. now if I meet someone in either game they are usually not there when I come back. It's a constant adding and deleting to my friend list.

    I'd rather have a small dedicated community but sadly developers need more and more money to fund these games.

    I understand that but there is a noticiable difference between the game communities of my early years of these games and the large transient communities that have become the norm with f2p games.

  • DrevarDrevar College Station, TXPosts: 156Member Uncommon
    So basically the OP is on about 400+ f2p games have more players and made more money than a couple handsfull of P2P games...um...congrats?

    “If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it.”
    -Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming

    "In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
    -Raph Koster

  • SharessSharess Victoria, BCPosts: 271Member Common

    6-1 is a good ratio of people that don't want to pay for quality.

    Though having a purchase game with a microtransaction cash shop (no 15$ for mounts, like 6 would be great) would work a LOT better.

    image

    Sharess Dragonstar - Midgard
    Grievance is recruiting.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sharess

    6-1 is a good ratio of people that don't want to pay for quality.

    Though having a purchase game with a microtransaction cash shop (no 15$ for mounts, like 6 would be great) would work a LOT better.

    Which P2P game is quality to you?

  • taus01taus01 MunichPosts: 1,352Member

     

    This so called satistic tries to suggest that the F2P market is bigger and more successful. Well, thats actually complete rubbish. Of cause there are more players on F2P games but that has nothing to do with success or failure. Both models are equally successful in terms of money made.

    What you have to look at is the REAL numbers in terms of MONEY made from games in both revenue models.

    In 2012 the US had roughly 50 Million players of which 23 million payed in some form, be it monthly fees or item shops. The top countries had a total revenue of $3.1 billion for P2P and $3.4 billion for F2P. This is 50% of the global market.

     

    Check your facts people.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,636Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

    "If you were to look at the growth of the audience alone, the market for F2P games is substantially larger than that for pay-to-play. Six times larger, in fact."

    "Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012."

    "So, yes, it would appear that F2P may be a viable revenue model, partly because of the large number of gamers it attracts. But traffic alone is not a definitive measure of success. Overall spending may follow a very different trend depending on a game’s life cycle, player base and genre.

    The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

     

    So the news is that 'F2P' apparently fleeces the consumer base for more cash than a sub... is this news? Remind me why paying more for less as consumers, for a worst user experience overall, is something to be celebrated again? It seems to me the only people that should be cheering this kind of apparent info are the investors and shareholders. There is nothing to suggest here that the sub isn't profitable, only that cash shops are maybe *more* profitable (which we kind of knew).

    The questions every gamer should be asking themselves though is at who's expense, and at what real cost?

     

    This all aside... I would be interested though in knowing how much providing a service for those '6 times' as many users actually works out in terms of profit... what does 'made more' mean? Is that gross? It's all very vague and murky without paying for the actual report.

     

    The quotes used here by the OP also seem to be taken from the F2P market at large, and not just MMORPGs, meaning that games like Farmville etc have been included.

     

    They also use the term 'revenue estimates', leading me to question their hard numbers and who openly participates in their data collection. Their phrasing leads me to believe they make guesses with regards to what isn't publically available.

     

    To be honest, we would really need to see the actual reports they are selling to talk about this in any real sense in regards to MMORPGs. Anyone willing to pony up and repost it here? :P

     

  • BrooksTechBrooksTech Canton, ILPosts: 163Member

    Captain obvious... Free games have more players than paid ones?  Is this news or common sence?

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    This so called satistic tries to suggest that the F2P market is bigger and more successful. Well, thats actually complete rubbish. Of cause there are more players on F2P games but that has nothing to do with success or failure. Both models are equally successful in terms of money made.

    What you have to look at is the REAL numbers in terms of MONEY made from games in both revenue models.

    In 2012 the US had roughly 50 Million players of which 23 million payed in some form, be it monthly fees or item shops. The top countries had a total revenue of $3.1 billion for P2P and $3.4 billion for F2P. This is 50% of the global market.

     

    Check your facts people.

    The F2P market IS bigger. And it appears to be slightly more successful from a revenue standpoint based on the information you provided. And it's rate of growth has been much faster than P2P games which are actually in decline.

     

    I mean, I'm not sure why you would call it complete rubbish when the stuff you linked only helps support that F2P makes slightly more than P2P.  

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    Poor pleople outnumbers rich people like 1000(made up) to 1 :D but yea ...

     

    Every mmorpg wishes to be P2P or B2P but usually they cant :)

     

    + say what you want. B2P or P2P communities are 1000x better than ANY F2P games. They dont last /stick with the games, they are not loyal and most of  these F2P players are just looking for FREE fun, they like to troll, etc.

    I couldnt help but read hearing Glenn Becks voice...

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • SharessSharess Victoria, BCPosts: 271Member Common
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Sharess

    6-1 is a good ratio of people that don't want to pay for quality.

    Though having a purchase game with a microtransaction cash shop (no 15$ for mounts, like 6 would be great) would work a LOT better.

    Which P2P game is quality to you?

    ATM none of them.

    AA looks like it will have enough quality to have both cashshop and subscription.

    UO, EQ, EQII, WoW, TERA, on release all those games had enough quality to be P2P.

    image

    Sharess Dragonstar - Midgard
    Grievance is recruiting.
  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    This so called satistic tries to suggest that the F2P market is bigger and more successful. Well, thats actually complete rubbish. Of cause there are more players on F2P games but that has nothing to do with success or failure. Both models are equally successful in terms of money made.

    What you have to look at is the REAL numbers in terms of MONEY made from games in both revenue models.

    In 2012 the US had roughly 50 Million players of which 23 million payed in some form, be it monthly fees or item shops. The top countries had a total revenue of $3.1 billion for P2P and $3.4 billion for F2P. This is 50% of the global market.

     

    Check your facts people.

     About those facts, how much of the P2P market was World of Warcraft...oh yeah, turns out only a few P2P games are making money, turning to F2P and making MORE of it...which will turn a larger portion of that market share even higher for F2P.

    Remove SWTOR, TSW and TERA from the P2P field for last year, games that are now F2P. P2P is losing ground just like it has been for 5 straight years.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • infiniti70infiniti70 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 61Member
    Is their a AAA title released recently that was F2P?

     

     

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sharess
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Sharess

    6-1 is a good ratio of people that don't want to pay for quality.

    Though having a purchase game with a microtransaction cash shop (no 15$ for mounts, like 6 would be great) would work a LOT better.

    Which P2P game is quality to you?

    ATM none of them.

    AA looks like it will have enough quality to have both cashshop and subscription.

    UO, EQ, EQII, WoW, TERA, on release all those games had enough quality to be P2P.

    I might be misunderstanding what you were trying to say with your first post. It looked like you were saying that 6/7 people don't want to pay for quality. But here you are saying that there are zero games in existence that justify a subscription.

     

    Wouldn't that mean that 1/7 people are currently getting ripped off because they are paying a sub for a game that is of low quality? The other 6/7 actually want to get a solid deal on what is being offered.

     

    But then then you go on about Archeage, a game that has not been released, to try to explain that there is indeed only one game in the universe that will be worth a sub (plus a cash shop, no less). I just don't see it. Maybe it does ok, but I expect another example of P2P gone F2P in 6 months. It just keeps happening over and over again.

     

    I mean, where are all these higher quality P2P games? WoW and EVE maybe, but after that? Nothing. You don't get quality for a sub. That's just a myth. You get the same or better quality from F2P right now.

     

    I also don't buy into the "better community" argument. The biggest asshats I've ever met were in WoW and EVE. And I love both of those games. But certainly the sub did not reduce the rate of asshats.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by infiniti70
    Is their a AAA title released recently that was F2P?

     

     

     Is there a AAA title released recently that was P2P?

    Or should I say, is there a title that was claimed ot be AAA that was even a B title recently that was P2P?

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

This discussion has been closed.