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Mark Jacobs/CU - Please read - Stealth mechanics like DAOC please

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  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 490Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cronius77
    if this game has stealth classes make it in like DAOC with perma stealth and 9 second stuns like infiltrators or left axe shadowblades you can keep it I wont touch it. I played a infiltrator to realm rank 7 and I never lost a 1 on 1 if I hit dragonfang no matter the class or realm rank. Thats called a I win button and I have no interest at all in that sort of gaming again. Even in Warhammer a high renoun rank witchunter was way over the top pistol whip and in less than 3 seconds before you got back up you were dead even shield tanks. That mess was a piss poor design decision sorry but its the truth.

    As Tumble pointed out Stealth is not an I-win button.  I've never stealthed someone to death in any game.  So stealth in and of itself is not an I-win.  You could say for example, Dragonfang is an I-win button.  But this thread isn't about Dragonfang, so don't lump it in with stealth.  So, what I'm trying to say is, your point is invalid for this thread.  Now if we were having a thread about, ok should stealthers get stun, then your point would be valid.  And yes i also mentioned Left Axe as a reason why people have in their mind stealthers are OP.  It took years for them to nerf Left Axe.  But again, if you look at core mechanics, you will see, Left Axe or Dragon fang, are not a core mechanice for stealthers. Non-timed stealth is a core mechanic that should be kept in this form.  So when you think about stealthers for CU, dont think about non-timed stealth + buffs bots, dragon fang, or left axe, or uber dots + sick evades, + etc etc.  This is just about stealth so don't say, I could pwn everyone in a fight etc etc.  Your stealth wasnt killing them.  You weren't spamming stealth on people to kill them all.  It was your buffbot or dragon fang, or left axe, or PA that was killing them easily.

     

    Though we are here to explain this issue, so I don't mind explaining it out.

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  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by tlear
    You do not need stealth for patrolling or scouting. If game has no stealth people will still scout and patrol anyway but now they wil actually be able to spot other side scout/spatrols and fight them.

    No you do not need steath for scouting, or patroling, but steathers can fill that bracket, as well  as be used for such patrols or recon like into cities or bases that are heavily guarded an so a non-stealthed scout or partroler would be hard pressed to get worthwhile info on that area. Also camo/steath has been used for quite a long time even in rl for reconing for info in high-security areas. Steath could also be more like you take on the look of being an ally, such as being un-targetable by the other side till you make an action against them or are discovered in some fasion. 

     

    Also have both steather an non-stealther recon oriented classes, with them playing in ways a cat and mouse game, of both the non-steather recon having methods of locating/identifing steathers would add more to the game. Such as having hunter or even ranger (pet-using huters) that would have various stealth detection options/utilities in thier skill-set. 

  • OutisOutis Birchwood, TNPosts: 105Member
    Originally posted by Thupli
    In the spirit of rock paper scissors, if we can't have a predator style skill based stealth, then I think it would be logical to have a hard counter class (scout) that can see them at 50% transparency, but no mini map tracking, and no tab-to targeting, but make them clickable, like critters in wow.  Make them use their eyes.  Mj is all about counters, and this would provide a non op counter.

    I like this idea. A scout can snipe assasins. So non-stealth has to watch out for stealthers and stealther have to watch out for archers.

     

    As a former infi I would say that trade off would be fair.

     

    50% transparency could be the max at scout (archer) progression in CU.

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  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common

    For one, the good news is that if someone wants something completely different from what made DAoC a very fun game for a lot of folks - you can go and get your own kickstarter and team going.  Barring that, Mr. Jacobs will and has already dealt with a plethora of folks who (good intentioned) have their ideas as to how he should construct his game.

     

    Common sense should kick in at this point and remind the audience that it seems folks are looking and flocking at and toward this title because of its relationship to Dark Age of Camelot.  Therefore, simply applying some Occom's Razor level of sense would dictate that the simplest choice in the matter of decision making for class construction in CU - would be to make a valid attempt at retaining a lot of what we did enjoy with Dark Age of Camelot.

     

    Simple.

     

    Stealth was its own option RvR game - and there were mechanics that affected that particular game as well.  Let's hope that Mr. Jacobs considers traditional DAoC stealth as a viable option for rogue lovers who have to play WoW to get any sense of rogue these days.

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  • cd3925cd3925 Spokane, WAPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by Kreedz

    I think its quite typical of the people who are pro-stealth to take such a childish stance of "You are bad" or "Nah uh!" when it comes to counter arguements.

    Fits the Stereotype perfectly, doesn't it?

    Kreedz.... you never even tried to give me some tips? Your coming here and saying the very thing that you say we are saying. Chip in and give some real feed back.

  • OdamanOdaman Satesboro, GAPosts: 194Member

    I'd like to see stealth in game since it tends to encourage solo play a bit more. That said it isn't make or break for me since I loved soloing on visible toons much more than my stealthers. Mostly because stealth classes tend to be weaker outside of stealth ( and in most cases an alpha strike). The only thing I don't want to see again is in combat stealth. In daoc vanish was as far as I'd ever want to see in combat stealth go. GW2 is probably the worst offender... they decided to avoid out of combat stealth, and ended up making the most obnoxious stealther I've ever seen.

     

    TLDR My only request would be to avoid the in combat stealth as much as possible if you do decide to put stealth in this game.

  • BenezettaBenezetta Wakeman, OHPosts: 84Member Uncommon

    This thread is fascinating!  It reminds me of the old days of DAoC on the VN boards when we all fought over every little nuance, real or imagined.

    I was primarily a rejuv cleric and honestly, stealthers didn't have much of an effect on my gameplay.  If I joined a group they'd swing by and pick me up.  Or I'd wait until another group formed up and tag along until I got to where I was going.  No way would I just go trotting out all by myself in the frontier - that was just plan stupid for a rejuv cleric!  I also knew that stealthers had their own brand of rvr amongst themselves; but it didn't affect me and at the time I never thought much about it.

    There have been some great ideas in this thread.  I hope CU gets the stealth wars figured out.  It was an integral part of DAoC and I'd hate to see it missing from CU.

    But I'm not going to get up on a soapbox and start yipping about stealth.  I don't know much about it so it's better to leave it to the experts.  Besides, I need to save my battle lines for the cleric/healer threads LOL!

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by Benezetta

    This thread is fascinating!  It reminds me of the old days of DAoC on the VN boards when we all fought over every little nuance, real or imagined.

    I was primarily a rejuv cleric and honestly, stealthers didn't have much of an effect on my gameplay.  If I joined a group they'd swing by and pick me up.  Or I'd wait until another group formed up and tag along until I got to where I was going.  No way would I just go trotting out all by myself in the frontier - that was just plan stupid for a rejuv cleric!  I also knew that stealthers had their own brand of rvr amongst themselves; but it didn't affect me and at the time I never thought much about it.

    There have been some great ideas in this thread.  I hope CU gets the stealth wars figured out.  It was an integral part of DAoC and I'd hate to see it missing from CU.

    But I'm not going to get up on a soapbox and start yipping about stealth.  I don't know much about it so it's better to leave it to the experts.  Besides, I need to save my battle lines for the cleric/healer threads LOL!

    Nice post.  Great to see someone who understood that running through the frontier solo was very dangerous... just like it probably was in medieval times. 

    I actually hope the Stealth Wars DON'T return in CU.  Stealth Wars were a direct consequence of the design flaws of the Stealth classes: they simply offered NOTHING to the group dynamic.  This created a kind of "ghetto-ization" of Stealthers where they were relegated to living and playing amongst themselves.

    I fear that if we see a return of the Stealth Wars, it will again be due to the inability of Stealthers to add anything to the group dynamic.  I sincerely hope that is not the case.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    A) Utilize DAoC stealth but allow it while weakening other aspects of character development. Rogues in DAoC had five friggin spec lines. Make spec lines a static number maybe?

    B) Change the name of the skill to Invisibility, a dark art taught only by secret cabals. Apparently the semantics piss some people off.

    C) Utilize a different stealth mechanic that is in line with what many posters here have suggested.

    D) Scrap stealth.

    I will play CU no matter which option is implemented... And I was a career Nightshade. A few points, though:

    It is unwise to apply one's opinion of "stealth" to a game who's creators are still conceptualizing it. We know it is RPS. So we need Scissors. Whether that's a stealth role or a skirmish-ey dps role, there will be scissors.

    Let's not lose sight of the fact that Mr. Jacobs is kindly giving us a chance to directly influence this game. That is awesome. However, given the dissent in regard to features (like stealth), do any of us really want him to obssess on catering to particular tastes? I say this man is poised to make the game of his career, and we needn't freak out over prognosticated minutae.

    If there is no stealth, I am sure rogues will still be viable.
  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 490Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    Originally posted by Benezetta

    This thread is fascinating!  It reminds me of the old days of DAoC on the VN boards when we all fought over every little nuance, real or imagined.

    I was primarily a rejuv cleric and honestly, stealthers didn't have much of an effect on my gameplay.  If I joined a group they'd swing by and pick me up.  Or I'd wait until another group formed up and tag along until I got to where I was going.  No way would I just go trotting out all by myself in the frontier - that was just plan stupid for a rejuv cleric!  I also knew that stealthers had their own brand of rvr amongst themselves; but it didn't affect me and at the time I never thought much about it.

    There have been some great ideas in this thread.  I hope CU gets the stealth wars figured out.  It was an integral part of DAoC and I'd hate to see it missing from CU.

    But I'm not going to get up on a soapbox and start yipping about stealth.  I don't know much about it so it's better to leave it to the experts.  Besides, I need to save my battle lines for the cleric/healer threads LOL!

    Nice post.  Great to see someone who understood that running through the frontier solo was very dangerous... just like it probably was in medieval times. 

    I actually hope the Stealth Wars DON'T return in CU.  Stealth Wars were a direct consequence of the design flaws of the Stealth classes: they simply offered NOTHING to the group dynamic.  This created a kind of "ghetto-ization" of Stealthers where they were relegated to living and playing amongst themselves.

    I fear that if we see a return of the Stealth Wars, it will again be due to the inability of Stealthers to add anything to the group dynamic.  I sincerely hope that is not the case.

    Again, here is another extreme statement that is wrong.  Stealthers provded nothing to the group dynamic?  Do you feel the same way about mercs?  What about minstrels?  Scouts?

     

    This is simply not true.  I know its not logical to say that, because your view that stealthers in the group dynamic is wrong, so is you view on non-timed vs. timed stealth.

     

    But really, scouts cann pull mobs in a PVE setting.

    Stealthers can scout out keeps in a RVR setting.  Can climb into keeps and report numbers.  They could kill the oil guys inside which i routinely did.  I wasnt a zerger, but i always grouped with my guild groups and was always being told to do all kinds of crap that no one else could do.  And this was just in RVR. 

     

    I know this game won't have PVE, but even so, there is a DPS role in PVE and in RVR.  Just a flat out DPS role, not even considering all the stealth tasks that your group or raid leader will assign.

     

    So this kind of fringe statement is again, part of the flawed logic where the people who want stealth taken away are completely wrong.  I don't see how Mark would listen to these biased statements and have them effect him. 

     

    "stealth is archaic"

    "stealth is broken and should be removed"

    "stealthers offered nothing to the group dynamic"

    "stealthers are OP"

    "stealth is an i-win button"

    **Edit - Another common mistake - confusing stealth alts with career stealthers. We don't stealth zerg and our patterns and playstyle are clearly misunderstood even though we have 18 pages of us posting on how we play.  Untimed stealth doesn't create uber stealth zergs or any ghettoization. FOTM upgrades and uberfying of skills creates tons of stealth who in turn group together causes this issue.  No one will play a stealth unless its a FOTM that can kill other classes easily.  How do they get this capability without hard work, simple, you roll a stealth alt, find out he's a gimp, and spam the developers to make him stronger.  But that isnt us career stealthers spamming these guys to make us more uber.  We just want our core mechanic and thats it.  Its the mainstream FOTM players who want all this extra crap ontop of non-timed stealth because they can't kill anything, cuz they don't know how to play their alt and don't invest anytime in him.

     

    I'm glad this is all being written down because it makes for a very good case that non-timed stealth is viable, since the other party is clearly just wanting to nerf a class period.  This issue is a very complex one, but not on the anti-stealth end, with them its just lets nerf it.  So there is a clear misunderstanding of stealthers that I am happy is being exposed on this thread.

     

    People who don't understand stealthers  should not be allowed to nerf our core mechanic of nontimed stealth for the reasons i just posted above.  You have stealthers here posting very intricate and complex reasoning of why it should be kept, then you have the anti side just baseing their entire arguement with the statements above. 

     

    Sort of like tea partiers vs. democrats for healthcare.  One side is saying crazy statements like "you are nazis", "this is leading to communism", and the other side has a very detailed arguement as to why we need a healthcare overhaul.

     

    Well you know who wins?  The loudest group in most cases.  You know who gets the most attention?  The loud group with the extreme statements.  So yeah, in this case im making an analogy.  You guys are the tea party nuts making extreme statements that are clearly wrong and don't deal with the issue.  We on the other hand are making very detailed explanations that probably won't be read completely. 

     

    ********Edit - You put stealther wars instead of stealth classes.  But in the end, those stealth wars were played out by alts.  Those stealth zergs were not career stealths.  Those were just a group of friends who got bored with the game, wanted to roll FOTM's and just camp their own realm's bridge.  yes camping your own bridge is lame and the ensuing stealthers who came after them were just lone wolves who were attacking the other realm's bridges and killing their reinforcements.

     

    So yes killing the other sides reinforcements does help the group dynamic.  But you are just seeing that side of stealth alts who were RR3 who decided to camp their own bridge. 

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  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member

    Whoa, Time007,

    I'm on your side.  I definitely want Stealth in the game.  I just want it to be useful and balanced.  What I meant when I said "Stealthers add nothing to the group dynamic" is in terms of the 8-man group.  The only Stealther who could contribute to an 8 man group was a Minstrel... and a grouping Minstrel would usually spec very low in Stealth.  Otherwise, there were rare Hunters, Rangers and Scouts who may run with 8 man groups, but they never specced into Stealth, either.

    As a LONG time Ranger, I scouted a ton for the Realm.  But, again, that's not a group skill, that's a realm skill... in other words, I don't need to be in a group to do that.  I certainly couldn't DPS like a caster, I couldn't tank like a Hero, I couldn't CC, I couldn't heal, I simply could do NOTHING to benefit a group... or at least I could do nothing that some other class couldn't do better.

    That was fine in the early days, but as the days of the uber 8man leet dewdz progressed, I was further and further relegated to playing only with other Stealthers... and fighting only other Stealthers.  Hence, my comment about the Stealth Ghetto.

    Don't get me wrong, the LAST thing I want to see in CU is another 8man/"Quit F*cking Adding, *sshole!" mentality crop up.  Likewise, I don't want another 1v1/leet Solo/"Quit F*cking Adding, *sshole!" mentality crop up, either.  If anything will chase me away from the game, these things will.

    I want to see REALM PRIDE!  And I want to be able to contribute to the greater good of the realm as a Stealther... not just run around and gank other Stealthers.  Does that make sense?

     

    EDIT: You couldn't possibly be more wrong about the Stealth Wars.  They were NOT alts.  In fact, on Percival, the overwhelming majority of Stealthers were career Stealthers.  I know... I was one of them.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 490Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz

    Whoa, Time007,

    I'm on your side.  I definitely want Stealth in the game.  I just want it to be useful and balanced.  What I meant when I said "Stealthers add nothing to the group dynamic" is in terms of the 8-man group.  The only Stealther who could contribute to an 8 man group was a Minstrel... and a grouping Minstrel would usually spec very low in Stealth.  Otherwise, there were rare Hunters, Rangers and Scouts who may run with 8 man groups, but they never specced into Stealth, either.

    As a LONG time Ranger, I scouted a ton for the Realm.  But, again, that's not a group skill, that's a realm skill... in other words, I don't need to be in a group to do that.  I certainly couldn't DPS like a caster, I couldn't tank like a Hero, I couldn't CC, I couldn't heal, I simply could do NOTHING to benefit a group... or at least I could do nothing that some other class couldn't do better.

    That was fine in the early days, but as the days of the uber 8man leet dewdz progressed, I was further and further relegated to playing only with other Stealthers... and fighting only other Stealthers.  Hence, my comment about the Stealth Ghetto.

    Don't get me wrong, the LAST thing I want to see in CU is another 8man/"Quit F*cking Adding, *sshole!" mentality crop up.  Likewise, I don't want another 1v1/leet Solo/"Quit F*cking Adding, *sshole!" mentality crop up, either.  If anything will chase me away from the game, these things will.

    I want to see REALM PRIDE!  And I want to be able to contribute to the greater good of the realm as a Stealther... not just run around and gank other Stealthers.  Does that make sense?

     

    EDIT: You couldn't possibly be more wrong about the Stealth Wars.  They were NOT alts.  In fact, on Percival, the overwhelming majority of Stealthers were career Stealthers.  I know... I was one of them.

    Ok, I see your post was more bent toward stealth wars.  Apologies.

     

    Yeah, i normally grouped just with 1 other guy and we attacked stealthers and non stealthers alike.  We didnt really start stealth wars, we ended them.  I suppose that was just on the classic servers we had it easy.  I guess on the non classic servers towards the 5+ year of DAOC buff bots got ridiculous.  I guess I can't comprehend how crappy it was.

     

    But man, if you take out buff bots, those stealth zergs would get buried everytime like they did on the classic servers.  We routinely had heretics and reavers routinely wiping them out either alone or in pairs.

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  • versulasversulas None of your damn business, WAPosts: 286Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Alders

    Stealth is a crutch.  Perma stealth is absurd with todays gamers/pvpers.  Looking at this from what worked 10 years ago is the wrong direction to take.

    Stealth is not a crutch, it's a playstyle... I loved to appear in front of solo runners, /bow, then start the fight once they'd caught sight of me. I wasn't looking for an unfair advantage. What I WAS looking to do was avoid the roaming 8-mans that hunted down runners like a pack of dogs.

     

    Stealth had a legitimate use in siege warfare. Not only did it cut off reinforcements, but you could climb the walls and pick off those defenders nuking down on the attackers so the melee/ram could move forward and start taking down the doors.

     

    Stealth was far from OP in any instance besides lowbie twink shadowblades perfing people with a 2h'er and one-shotting them. There were mechanics in place to help those caught by surprise, blade turn, those little pets that took damage for you, detection turrets, cooldowns to instantly heal and reset the fight, cooldowns to get distance or to CC, etc. Despite the disadvantages, some  people liked having a class that allowed them to make a meaningful contribution while running solo.

    EVERY other class is more efficient receiving heals, sharing buffs, providing or getting peels, or w/e the case may be. Stealth is a godsend for those of us that don't want to be forced into those roles.

    -

    At the very least, give us some sort of camouflage ability to look like a broken-down wagon or something in the middle of a wartorn area where it requires some skill and a good deal of luck to be convincing enough to get the drop on someone, in an ever-changing environment so people don't memorise where the debris is XD

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