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Foundational Principle #7: Crafting
Tadder
Member Posts: 38
http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/foundational-principle-7/
Interesting ideas. I didn't quiet understand one aspect though. It sounds like the plan is to let people roll a "crafting class?" It sounds like there will be one basic crafter class that everyone roles and then they decide while playing that class which "trees" whether it be armorsmith, weaponsmith, furniture, etc that they go up?
Post-kickstarter, it would be great to see a list of crafting classes/professions that are envisioned for the initial funding, and what some might be for stretch goals. Architect!
Comments
I didn't get that impression. I got the impression that if you role one of these crafter classes, you will have access to armornsmith, weaponsmith, etc... The only limiting factor is the time investment, but NOT choosing a certain tree which locks you from others. Maybe I am wrong though. Maybe Mark will clarify it. However, How bad would it suck to roll a dedicated crafter class and then have to choose to lock yourself out of a HUGE portion of crafting for the sake or specializing. You've already locked yourself out of choosing one of the other RvR battle focused classes, so you should have the opportunity to craft any and everything (given the right time investment).
I dunno though. Let's hope he clarifies this "crafter class" for us.
I'm fairly certain you're right from the discussion he had on making it increasingly harder to advance to the next skill tier or master all the crafting skills? Hopefully the increasingly difficulty is enough that only the insane die-hard crafters master everything.
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I think thats the point of the whole thing, just because you're a dedicated crafter doesn't make you a walmart, and you'll want to form a real crafting community.
I hope its more like I specialize at making a particular type of weapon, but I can still make other weapons very well, just not as well as some other guy who specializes in them. And hopefully this can change over time based on what you actually craft.
Would be even neater if instead of applying to a finished product that it applied to a particular component. Idk, craftings not really my thing, but for someone to be a walmart just cause they chose crafter would not really encourage cooperation or competition.
This sounds like a very interesting system. Can't wait to see how well it is put into practice...crafing is a "throw away" dime-a-dozen thing in most MMO's but this type of system should really be something a bit more special.
One interesting thing i noticed was he said "spells will fade".....sounds like there should be a crafting tree for writing spells...
I like.
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I agree the crafting classes section is somewhat vague.
I like what I am hearing about only getting items from crafters and nowhere else, and good crafters getting recognition for their work.
I am a little concerned when he talks about magical items which sounds like gear tiers or time played = skill.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Maybe, I really don't know. He left it vague. However, it's not about being a walmart, it sounds to me like you're giving up your ability to be effective in RvR battles in favor of crafting. If that is true, then forcing specialization also excludes yet even more content to the point that you have a character that can make a certain sword, but can't make great armor, can't make great siege or whatever, can't fight very well in RvR. So... you sit in town and hope and pray to god that someone needs that one sword you can make? Yes... I am way over exagerating my point. I am just trying to show why i think that if it is a dedicated crafter class, they should have full access to all crafting (given that they put in a tremendous amount of time investment). Which this is what i understood from the article. Mark seems to come accross that they will have access to all crafts but it will take them as long to get to that point as it would take anyone else to reach an end of the line in some other combat class progression (which could be several weeks or months... maybe even years).
You would be correct. Because players can't easily level a crafter character by simply throwing money at it, I can design the system so it doesn't lock people out of additional skill trees like in most MMOs. Crafters will be able to specialize in multiple disciplines with time being the gating factor.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Like I said, crafting is not for me. I would not be the one sacrificing my combat capabilities, but I did know others who played daoc that were willing to and enjoyed it. I think mark is aiming for that lot.
He realizes that such sacrifices aren't for everyone, I think thats why he entertains the possibility of PvE items if there aren't enough crafters of sufficient power, because it really isn't for everybody.
I think we can count on crafting being a hell of a lot more satisfying than in other games, mark is clearly a crafting junkie. Hopefully crafters will also be out in the thick of it too, on the front lines. Take a keep, and crafting quests open up. Bring resources to the keep's strong box. Using resources from the keep's strongbox, forge improved items equipment for the guards. Build seige defenses. Integrating reactive and proactive crafting into RvR could make it very satisfying.
Love what I'm hearing so far, nailed it on many points (How the AH in modern mmo's detracts from community, etc) and the need for items to decay and eventually buy new ones.
Also REALLY hoping visual customization for crafters gets it into the game. The best system for this I would think would be a "layering" system.
Basically where the crafters can choose from various models/textures for the "base" look of the weapon (IE sword hilts, pommel or no pommel, crossguards/handles, blade shape, etc) and then once they pick those choices it creates the "base" model of the weaapon.
Then once you have this model allow the players to "layer" things onto the model via decals, from colors/materials, to etchings and other little designs onto the blade, and then things like jewels, etc on the hilt and what not.
For armour it's the same basic thing, allow different textures/models to be selected and pieced together, then allow the "layering" of things on top of this base model, such as colour of the armour, painting on the armour (many armours were painted historically, but over time it was lost/cleaned and people don't realize how colourful armor could really be), to etching, gilding, embossing, etc.
I don't know if anyone here played it, but the mmo action game, APB (All points bulliten) had an AMAZING customization system that used this kind of detail, from the clothing which you could add "decals" to, to tattoo's, and then on your vehicle. It had the most in-depth and customizible system of any game I've played to make something truly unique. If CU could even get close to that for weapons/armour it would be amazing.
Here are some videos showing it off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmBrrrzSuWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exTIcI0n2P4
stiler: custom visuals have one more slight problem then usual programming/resources one - you have to make sure that people dont create visuals with things like copyrighted things (e.g. superman symbol), racist/offensive signs/inscriptions etc.
Also consider what steam's TF2 is doing, where players are allowed to make models and sell them to other TF2 players, and steam make's a cut of the profits.
By no means make it f2p, just saying it would add a lot to the economy and longevity of the game. Imagine if a system like that were set up in daoc, after 10 years of tens of thousands of possible item model creators, daoc might be the best looking mmo of all time if this were set up.
Could do the same thing with animations, faces, hair styles. Just not hats. Fucking draw the line at hats.
Such a system would have to be loremaster regulated so as to not have some bronies screw up the feel of the game.
And before you start doubting if something like this would work, well its no longer a debate based on theory. Gabe Newell has openly admitted defeat to player made content creation.
If an MMO could find a way to harness such a thing, the players themselves could make the game self-propelling and the devs could just lean back and reap the profits like valve is currently doing. :P
win/win/win
Yeah, I've spent a fair amount of time crafting in other games and looking at their systems. Your description of the action around a keep (or perhaps a dungeon, hmmm?) is one of the ways I want to integrate crafting into RvR.
Thanks, as always, for the compliments.
APB is actually one of the games I haven't checked out, I'll have to do so. That amount of customization sounds like fun but, as always, the key for us is going to be the effect on FPS. Nothing is more important than that to us. Thanks for the tip.
Thanks. The artisan stuff is pretty cool too. I really am eagerly awaiting player reaction to that one, it should be interesting to say the least.
Yep, that's a major problem if the system is too free-form along with the FPS problem. Stuff like that can really add up in large-scale battles which is why we have to be both careful and clever.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I like the plans. I've been lurking several weeks reading about the plans and like them.
As a crafter that's tried and gotten frustrated at many of the MMORPG systems, I agree that there needs to be some sort of methodology that makes the top gear needed (more than once). I don't think it needs to be as drastic as Eve's, and what I read sounds about right. The problem I always ran into with crafting either weapons or armor or the like, was the top end gear was better than what I had and once someone got the piece of armor, and it was never needed again. I almost always turned to crafting consumable as those were really the only things in demand at high level. It is/was very frustrating to level my crafting to find out that I can't really make things that people don't really need. I'm glad that will be addressed even if it makes some upset that their gear wears down over time.
I would like to see my "house" that is a shop, and even npcs or an order board (could be at the shop and not server wide) where they can sell my inventory if I'm not on or place orders. I think my trusty secretary, order manager, or assistant could help that aspect of my business out.
I saw that shops in guild areas were TBD, and would really encourage that being there.
I would probably prefer if my character could be both a crafter and warrior, but requires the time to grow as discussed (similar to Eve I suppose), but it isn't a deal breaker for me. I might have read it wrong, but I go the impression that the crafting class was separate from the fighting classes. The way I see it is it is either way it would be time spent on an alt or on the character that can do both. Since it is the time and skill being spent, I don't see it needing to be a whole separate class. Again, I see the other side of making it just a crafting character.
Thanks for the update, and I look forward to reading the detailed artisan one also.
Burgy
Yes, he did say that Crafting would be a separate class. He also said that all classes will be able to get up to "Journeymen" level in crafting, but only the Crafting class can master the art. Personally, I think that's reasonable. If every class can master crafting, it would just become some useless profession that everybody knows like you would find in any other MMO.
I'm against crafting in guild shop and I know mine is a very unpopular stance. :x
1) Crafting stations everywhere splits up the playerbase and puts crafters out of sight. (not dy-no-mite)
2) They could put tiered crafting stations in the frontier areas which would be awwwesoooome. The ring of power wasn't forged in Frodo's livingroom, it was forged in a very specific, special place. Now imagine those places being a contestable resource. Or imagine (mixing skyrim and daoc here, bear with me) each realm has a "Sky Forge", and midgard's is in bledmere, hib's is in DC, etc. That would be fkn badass. Where are the crafters? In their front lawns hitting an anvil with a hammer? No! They're at bledmere repairing the doors, cause they like their skyforge!
It would be an awesome way to move people from the safe areas, and put them on the front lines. Eve sort of did this with having the labs and bays at destructibe POS being both more efficient and faster.
I guess it all depends really. If they find a way to make player/guild homes work in RvR areas and they aren't spammed all over the g'damn map, I suppose it could work. But could you imagine how fucking awesome they could make a special forge look? Could have like a statue of a god with his mouth open, lava flowing out of it into a sort of forge commode, and the lava flowing down to different tiers of forge commodes.
A giant forge that goes up like a stair case. You go to the level that you can craft at. Noob don't go to the top. Grand master smiths at the top, near the more glorious top where the lava is spewing out, illuminated with an aura, glowing like gods themselves, sparks flying, no, more like minature bombs going of when they pound out that steel.
The lower tiered crafters quite literally looking up to them, awe-inspired by what they have to look forward to. On display to everyone that comes through the most high-traffic area in the realm, that realm's forwardmost base. In this case bledmere.
I don't want tons of crafting stations littering world because.. you could do things that are so much cooler, it'd be a waste imo.
Love what I am hearing about this. I knew crafting was going to be a focal point, but to have a crafter class is an amazing thing. To think how someone who is a crafter could help with the RVR war at keeps building defenses or offenses while ground troops keep them safe makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
Its nice that crafters get love in the form of what they make being desired/ And I love that the social part will come back with a lack of an auction house. I despise them despite the fact that I typically get rich off of them.
Me too!
That's one reason they are not in my game design. If CU is to succeed, realm pride and Community will be a big part of it. That's one of the reasons I have been damping down expectations for the subscriber numbers; I just don't know how many people are really interested in this type of game today. We need players who actually want to play, interact and truly be part of the same server as other gamers and not simply solo their way to success. It's really quite amusing that as the rest of the world got more social and networked, most MMOs went in the opposite direction. They may have had more subs than EQ, UO, DAoC but IMO, the people who played those games had deeper ties to each other. Maybe I'm looking through this with rose-colored glasses but I do believe that.
It will certainly be an interesting 6 or so weeks.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I really like the idea once you max out a particular craft of being able to put your "makers mark" on the item the way that swordsmiths, etc have always done. Do you think that will be possible? Maybe a guild emblem?
Also if you have time please check out this post Mark: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/377771/Things-from-UODAOCWARGW2-I-hope-make-it-into-CU.html
The pure crafters probably wont see tons of combat, but I had an Idea for giving them some kind of small damage bonus, the higher up the crafting skill is the bigger the damage bonus (it would still be small to prevent being overpowered, and wouldn't bring them up to the damage level of a normal fighter).
It could be something like this: "Your armor crafting skill has allowed you to notice how crappy your opponent's armor is, and you strike at the weakest spot doing 15 extra damage."
Maybe it could be just a once in a while thing, kind of like an extra crit attack.
Anyway, just an idea I had.