No NPC guards or lords, for a better world.

skyexile · February 2013

So I must say, I hate PVE in my PVP and i dislike that so many fantasy MMO's resort to having NPC guards and a keep lord. I think by removing them totally you could add abit more flavour in keep taking.

here's some initial ideas for to process in switching control, the times obviously arnt solid or most haves, but the idea behind them is to add another layer of combat, instead of just charging in, killing the keep lord and defenders and having the tower switch all these ideas make it so you then have to hold it for abit so defenders have time to launch a counter attack.

Domination style:
circle on the ground, have people stand in for about 1-3min. pretty simple.

Channelling (makes the most sense)
players have to channel, preferably uninterrupted into an orb of control, more people could reduce the capture time, but id saying the minimum it can take would be 1 minute of uninterrupted channelling to change control of the keep.

Both the domination and channel style captures could be further augmented by then having a timer until the keep changes hands(slowly raising a flag or something) the attackers would need to stop the defenders from reaching the control points, players may perhaps be standing around from sometime waiting for the capture if no defenders come, but i don't think thats a bad thing, giving people some idle or downtime is good for building a community.

CTF/deliver the flag.
I think adding alternative capture methods is a great thing and sometimes theres no more adrenaline than chasing down a flag carrier or guarding one, Keeps again could spawn an orb of control, to capture that keep you would need to deliver it back to your keep or perhaps as a twist, deliver one from your keep. you could mix this with the channelling to spawn the orb of power for your realm but also have it so you need to split your defence and maintain control of the orb spawn point, so defenders don't come back and channel on it to de spawn the orb.

I know what you're gonna say though, whats to stop afew people from waltzing in and capping it easily? well nothing if no players turn up, its a PvP game though, players should want to turn up to defend their land. IMO the attackers should get NO reward for taking the keep(eg:np HERE HAVE 2000RP!!, CYA AT THE NEXT UNDEFENDED BATTLE OBJECTIVE!)...unless the defenders left something behind... the reward should come from owning it.

One other possibility to have, since people do like their boss fights at keeps is to have the lord be essentially player controlled...let a defender pickup the orb of power and transform into into something powerful, capable of taking on a small group of players, obviously it cant go out of the room,, and there would be a timer on it respawning, guild owned keeps could limit who picks it up) what people transform into could vary on faction, race or class. In any case it would add abit more spice in the taking and defending of a keep.

thats about it...obviously im under the assumption attacking a keep door or having enemy players in or near the keep would give defenders some sort of alert somehow.

Plastic-Metal · February 2013

Interesting suggestions, but the primary reason NPC guards and Lords have been used time and time again is simply because it represents actual real life hierarchy. If the keep is claimed by a guild, you can increase the difficulty of the NPC guards which would represent the resistance of the guild itself until reinforcements arrive.

"Stand-In-The-Circle" works, but it causes forces to stand idly while just trading objectives.

meddyck · February 2013

If there are no NPCs at keeps especially high level keep lords, then it would just be way too easy for solo players or small groups to take keeps. Plus it's more realistic for a keep to have guards. Having a huge castle with a fortified gate but nobody around defending it would be weird.

Heartspark · February 2013

Originally posted by meddyck
If there are no NPCs at keeps especially high level keep lords, then it would just be way too easy for solo players or small groups to take keeps. Plus it's more realistic for a keep to have guards. Having a huge castle with a fortified gate but nobody around defending it would be weird.

Yep, remember in daoc they put in towers (new frontiers) that let small groups take them (often able to do them with a single buff bot) if not upgraded. It would be weird, but they could do it in this game if keeps/towers or whatever they put it had to be controlled by a guild to have guards. I did like the idea in DAOC how you could have a few players knock down doors and kill all the guards (in not upgraded keeps), just when you wanted to take the relic you could just swoop in to kill lord real fast.

If they did the upgrade thing in this game, i can see how having just some weak guards and a lord could be fun.

I always thought they could expand on the keep/tower aspect, and have bridges that could be controlled over deep chasms. they could be upgraded based on wood/stone/steel/etc for more a stragetic advantage. LIke whoever owns it has faster access to a certain rvr area of important. It could be destroyed completely and took resources to rebuild. something along that lines.

Smorak · February 2013

Originally posted by skyexile
So I must say, I hate PVE in my PVP and i dislike that so many fantasy MMO's resort to having NPC guards and a keep lord. I think by removing them totally you could add abit more flavour in keep taking.

here's some initial ideas for to process in switching control, the times obviously arnt solid or most haves, but the idea behind them is to add another layer of combat, instead of just charging in, killing the keep lord and defenders and having the tower switch all these ideas make it so you then have to hold it for abit so defenders have time to launch a counter attack.

Domination style:
circle on the ground, have people stand in for about 1-3min. pretty simple.

Channelling (makes the most sense)
players have to channel, preferably uninterrupted into an orb of control, more people could reduce the capture time, but id saying the minimum it can take would be 1 minute of uninterrupted channelling to change control of the keep.

Both the domination and channel style captures could be further augmented by then having a timer until the keep changes hands(slowly raising a flag or something) the attackers would need to stop the defenders from reaching the control points, players may perhaps be standing around from sometime waiting for the capture if no defenders come, but i don't think thats a bad thing, giving people some idle or downtime is good for building a community.

CTF/deliver the flag.
I think adding alternative capture methods is a great thing and sometimes theres no more adrenaline than chasing down a flag carrier or guarding one, Keeps again could spawn an orb of control, to capture that keep you would need to deliver it back to your keep or perhaps as a twist, deliver one from your keep. you could mix this with the channelling to spawn the orb of power for your realm but also have it so you need to split your defence and maintain control of the orb spawn point, so defenders don't come back and channel on it to de spawn the orb.

I know what you're gonna say though, whats to stop afew people from waltzing in and capping it easily? well nothing if no players turn up, its a PvP game though, players should want to turn up to defend their land. IMO the attackers should get NO reward for taking the keep(eg:np HERE HAVE 2000RP!!, CYA AT THE NEXT UNDEFENDED BATTLE OBJECTIVE!)...unless the defenders left something behind... the reward should come from owning it.

One other possibility to have, since people do like their boss fights at keeps is to have the lord be essentially player controlled...let a defender pickup the orb of power and transform into into something powerful, capable of taking on a small group of players, obviously it cant go out of the room,, and there would be a timer on it respawning, guild owned keeps could limit who picks it up) what people transform into could vary on faction, race or class. In any case it would add abit more spice in the taking and defending of a keep.

thats about it...obviously im under the assumption attacking a keep door or having enemy players in or near the keep would give defenders some sort of alert somehow.

Seriously?! Mini games? Is there a VIP mission, too?

Apparently you didn't play AoC where attacking undefended guild towns was the rage. Nothing better than burning a town to the ground that they spent months building all at 4am on a Tuesday. Woohoo... Those were the days.

skyexile · February 2013

Originally posted by Smorak
Seriously?! Mini games? Is there a VIP mission, too?Apparently you didn't play AoC where attacking undefended guild towns was the rage. Nothing better than burning a town to the ground that they spent months building all at 4am on a Tuesday. Woohoo... Those were the days.

The only people who played Aoc for more than a short period were morons, which is evident in your post...thinking I was talking about minigames... wtf...

Satarious · February 2013

I'm going to have to side with the folks who believe there needs to be NPC guards. Sitting on keeps and towers and automatically claiming it is more of a MOBA than an MMORPG, to me. There definitely needs to be some toughness to Keeps that aren't defended, and it shouldn't be time alone.

Asleep · February 2013

Originally posted by Xobdnas
I always thought it was odd to fight through players to take a keep in PVP just to be met with a Elite NPC. Usually by the time you reach the NPC the players move on anyway so the fight always felt sort of pointless.

See, I'm one of those who enjoyed the system Aion had, you had this raid boss inside, with elite gaurding it, and several different strategic entry points. When the fights were best, you easily risked getting wiped trying to kill the boss, especially if they activated surrounding artifacts along with big pushes at the right times.

I'm not saying a system without lords couldn'tbe better, just that some systems utilize the lord very well, and make it so the fight can continue even if you are outmatched by numbers.

FromHell · February 2013

so, more or less you want an Age of Conan Blood&Glory server?

bcbully · February 2013

Originally posted by Satarious
I'm going to have to side with the folks who believe there needs to be NPC guards. Sitting on keeps and towers and automatically claiming it is more of a MOBA than an MMORPG, to me. There definitely needs to be some toughness to Keeps that aren't defended, and it shouldn't be time alone.

I disagee If you make your game correctly there will be reason for players to do the job. NPC guards are a tack on to a none working system.

Karteli · February 2013

Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Satarious
I'm going to have to side with the folks who believe there needs to be NPC guards. Sitting on keeps and towers and automatically claiming it is more of a MOBA than an MMORPG, to me. There definitely needs to be some toughness to Keeps that aren't defended, and it shouldn't be time alone.

I disagee If you make your game correctly there will be reason for players to do the job. NPC guards are a tack on to a none working system.

Alterac Valley was wonderful in the day .. are you saying that people who loved Alterac Valley didn't know their heads from their ass? :P

I found the "tacked" on guards in AV a challenge, along with my enemy.

AV was better back then.

skyexile · February 2013

Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by bcbully Originally posted by Satarious I'm going to have to side with the folks who believe there needs to be NPC guards. Sitting on keeps and towers and automatically claiming it is more of a MOBA than an MMORPG, to me. There definitely needs to be some toughness to Keeps that aren't defended, and it shouldn't be time alone.

I disagee If you make your game correctly there will be reason for players to do the job. NPC guards are a tack on to a none working system.

Alterac Valley was wonderful in the day .. are you saying that people who loved Alterac Valley didn't know their heads from their ass? :P

I found the "tacked" on guards in AV a challenge, along with my enemy.

AV was better back then.

AV was better back then but it wasn't because of the guards...its because people fought eachother.

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