Not D&D

pmaura · February 2013

This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

BitterClinger · February 2013

Originally posted by pmaura
This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

You are correct. This is a problem with Wizards of the Coast, not Neverwinter. Video game revenues have surpassed music and movie industry revenues combined. WotC prefer to be a little fish in a big pond rather than be a big fish in a little pond, I suppose. I hate what has happened to the D&D ruleset, but you can see it in other games as well (e.g. Blizzard stripping the Talent system out of WoW).

JaggaSpikes · February 2013

D&D is many things to many different people. even back then at the beginnings, there were people that played highly tactical games with miniatures and game boards. while i'm not that fond of 4E board game, i'm quite interested in MMO incarnation. i would be even more interested in single-player turn-based variant

Souldrainer · February 2013

Originally posted by pmaura
This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

Did you mean defiantly or definitely? Anyway, I hate 4th edition. Really, 3.0 was my favorite. I didn't like 3.5 (too much push for balance and too much of a push for combat) and I hate 4th edition. I just started playing a Pathfinder game a few weeks ago, and I like it, but don't love it yet. I might love it at some point, but already I am having mixed feelings about certain things with the system. IMO, they should change spell durations back to hours per day like in 3.0, because with the new 3.5/Pathfinder durations it's now "I IGNORE all those NPCS and blow past them.... I've only got two more rounds of Bull's Strength, so I need to hunt for something to KILL." Design FAIL.

At least 3.X and D20 are part of the Open Gaming License. 4th Edition, by closing off the license, really lost me.

Lanessar · February 2013

Originally posted by pmaura
This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

While I feel your pain on this title, I remember the exact same discussion happening in regard to 3RD ED when it came out, from the 2ED crowd. "It's not D&D!"

Fast forward, and here we are: anything not 3.5ED "isn't D&D". By your example, 1ED and 2ED aren't D&D.

In 1/2ED, there were no "feats". No "character builds". If you wanted to dual-wield, you paid 3g for another axe or 5g for another sword. If you wanted to "tank", you kept a shield on you and pulled it out for the +1 to AC (+2 for large shields, I believe).

I personally abhor the lack of choice when leveling in NWO, as of BWE1. However, it doesn't make it "not a fun game" and it's certainly not a "WoW clone", unless you qualify that to mean:

1. Anything with set level progression and attainment of powers.

2. Instanced dungeons.

3. Gear or treasure to obtain.

And honestly, 1ED AD&D fails by all of the above criteria. But it was D&D.

Criticising the game because of lack of character customization, I can get behind. That's the game's failing, not the D&D moniker. And as far as a game having this lack of individuality (many things are so generic, even vanilla WOW feels like you have more customization options), yes, that needs to change to make it more interesting past a playthough, and more connection to your avatar.

pmaura · February 2013

Originally posted by Lanessar
Originally posted by pmaura
This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

While I feel your pain on this title, I remember the exact same discussion happening in regard to 3RD ED when it came out, from the 2ED crowd. "It's not D&D!"

Fast forward, and here we are: anything not 3.5ED "isn't D&D". By your example, 1ED and 2ED aren't D&D.

In 1/2ED, there were no "feats". No "character builds". If you wanted to dual-wield, you paid 3g for another axe or 5g for another sword. If you wanted to "tank", you kept a shield on you and pulled it out for the +1 to AC (+2 for large shields, I believe).

I personally abhor the lack of choice when leveling in NWO, as of BWE1. However, it doesn't make it "not a fun game" and it's certainly not a "WoW clone", unless you qualify that to mean:

1. Anything with set level progression and attainment of powers.

2. Instanced dungeons.

3. Gear or treasure to obtain.

And honestly, 1ED AD&D fails by all of the above criteria. But it was D&D.

Criticising the game because of lack of character customization, I can get behind. That's the game's failing, not the D&D moniker. And as far as a game having this lack of individuality (many things are so generic, even vanilla WOW feels like you have more customization options), yes, that needs to change to make it more interesting past a playthough, and more connection to your avatar.

to be honest I prefered 2nd edition as I was a huge fan of the different level requirements for classes and I still love 18/00 for strength but I completly see why they changed attributes system and the leveling to a degree, as the 3rd addition really made character custumization awesome. But the 4th edition as far as I am concerened sucks donkeys. I actually would really like DDO except dont lke the ebberon setting.

alkarionlog · February 2013

I also liked the 2E better, I can understand the 3E to make things more easy to calculate and keep it easyer for the less smart people, but it also make stats who are not even useless, because you only get a next bonus on even numbers, it also cut all the pre req for classes, but that most of time we let it go, but really I did play magic and D&D when younger but after sometime it just lost it appeal to me be it by the changes and by a lack to find people willing to play

StMichael · February 2013

Was D&D a ruleset? Or was it an outlet for creative minds that were not content to entertain themselves the way mere mortals did?

Dungeons and Dragons has always ever been a game of the mind. No more, no less. And because of that, it is what you choose to make of it.

David_Lopan · February 2013

Originally posted by StMichael
Was D&D a ruleset? Or was it an outlet for creative minds that were not content to entertain themselves the way mere mortals did?

Dungeons and Dragons has always ever been a game of the mind. No more, no less. And because of that, it is what you choose to make of it.

Spot on +1

Slampig · February 2013

Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by pmaura
This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

You are correct. This is a problem with Wizards of the Coast, not Neverwinter. Video game revenues have surpassed music and movie industry revenues combined. WotC prefer to be a little fish in a big pond rather than be a big fish in a little pond, I suppose. I hate what has happened to the D&D ruleset, but you can see it in other games as well (e.g. Blizzard stripping the Talent system out of WoW).

That always makes me laugh. When every single person was using the exact same talents, what difference did it make? The new system, they are all useful, now you just choose what you want, granted it doesn't get rid of the universal build but if you do not want to be another sheep at least you are not handicapped because of it.

Akulas · February 2013

You can make up your own rules with a guide of the rules in mind or even your own classes for that matter.

itgrowls · February 2013

It is based on the D&D ruleset they have out now. Just because they changed the ruleset functions in 4E and you don't like it doesn't make this game any less D&D. WotC has had a heavy hand in the design of this game.

I actually like it because of how they handle the abilities for combat tho i do find myself missing the abilities the Tome of Magic offered in 2.5E like priest quest spells for example.

MadDemon64 · February 2013

Originally posted by emperorwings
You can make up your own rules with a guide of the rules in mind or even your own classes for that matter.

^ this.

A lot of people seem to be ignoring this fact, that D&D has multiple ways of being played, and that no two people are entirely in agreement as to how to play it. Some people prefer to play D&D by the book (literally) and use only the rules stated in the books. Some people prefer to use 3rd edition or 3.5, some prefer 4th edition, and some prefer pathfinder. Some people will only use the races, classes, weapons, and mobs from the books, and some go crazy with them and prefer to use homebrew races, classes, weapons, and mobs (heck, I once read a D&D homebrew mob entry for a Dark Belra, my favorite enemy monster of all time from Phantasy Star Online).

When it comes right down to it, the rules don't make the game of D&D what it is; its the story, setting, characters and how they impact/feed off of the imagination of the players that makes D&D what it is.

golgo28 · February 2013

Originally posted by MadDemon64
Originally posted by emperorwings
You can make up your own rules with a guide of the rules in mind or even your own classes for that matter.

^ this.

A lot of people seem to be ignoring this fact, that D&D has multiple ways of being played, and that no two people are entirely in agreement as to how to play it. Some people prefer to play D&D by the book (literally) and use only the rules stated in the books. Some people prefer to use 3rd edition or 3.5, some prefer 4th edition, and some prefer pathfinder. Some people will only use the races, classes, weapons, and mobs from the books, and some go crazy with them and prefer to use homebrew races, classes, weapons, and mobs (heck, I once read a D&D homebrew mob entry for a Dark Belra, my favorite enemy monster of all time from Phantasy Star Online).

When it comes right down to it, the rules don't make the game of D&D what it is; its the story, setting, characters and how they impact/feed off of the imagination of the players that makes D&D what it is.

Who actually said they prefer 4th edition?I'm hoping cryptic doesn't go solely by the book with the game.cause homestly 4th edition is too watered down for any serious rpgers.My 6 year old nephew prefers 3rd edition over 4th.me personaly i prefer 2nd but don't mid 3rd.but 4th feels like wotc is trying to be condecending to palyers.

Dreamo84 · February 2013

They're homestly being conecending to the palyers?!?

Sorry I couldn't resist ;p

RelGn · February 2013

Originally posted by pmaura
This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

Thats why it will suck balls.No character customization means everyones the same.

2ndly bad combat style.The free aim is the worst part

McGamer · February 2013

Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by pmaura
This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

You are correct. This is a problem with Wizards of the Coast, not Neverwinter. Video game revenues have surpassed music and movie industry revenues combined. WotC prefer to be a little fish in a big pond rather than be a big fish in a little pond, I suppose. I hate what has happened to the D&D ruleset, but you can see it in other games as well (e.g. Blizzard stripping the Talent system out of WoW).

You both are missing the real issue here with Neverwinter.

No game ever is going to be D&D 100% so people need to stop splitting hairs over the fact that just like when a book is made into a movie it will not be the same because of one major reason. Imagination. D&D (and books) are only as popular as they become because people are able to add their imagination into the story to fit their idea of what is "fun".

As far as Neverwinter goes, it captures the idea of D&D well enough I belive and a heck of a lot better than DDO that doesn't even allow for players to step in as DMs like Neverwinter will.

Lastly, there is absolutely nothing "WoWish" about Neverwinter. Saying that really shows a lack of experience in games if someone is seriously going to try to use that as a arguing point. WoW did not invent the hotbar, nor the quest log, nor anything it currently uses in its game.

Its sad how often new gamers try to label something based on WoW, but unfortunately they still need to be reminded that WoW did not invent anything new to the genre.

McGamer · February 2013

Originally posted by golgo28
Originally posted by MadDemon64
Originally posted by emperorwings
You can make up your own rules with a guide of the rules in mind or even your own classes for that matter.

^ this.

A lot of people seem to be ignoring this fact, that D&D has multiple ways of being played, and that no two people are entirely in agreement as to how to play it. Some people prefer to play D&D by the book (literally) and use only the rules stated in the books. Some people prefer to use 3rd edition or 3.5, some prefer 4th edition, and some prefer pathfinder. Some people will only use the races, classes, weapons, and mobs from the books, and some go crazy with them and prefer to use homebrew races, classes, weapons, and mobs (heck, I once read a D&D homebrew mob entry for a Dark Belra, my favorite enemy monster of all time from Phantasy Star Online).

When it comes right down to it, the rules don't make the game of D&D what it is; its the story, setting, characters and how they impact/feed off of the imagination of the players that makes D&D what it is.

Who actually said they prefer 4th edition?I'm hoping cryptic doesn't go solely by the book with the game.cause homestly 4th edition is too watered down for any serious rpgers.My 6 year old nephew prefers 3rd edition over 4th.me personaly i prefer 2nd but don't mid 3rd.but 4th feels like wotc is trying to be condecending to palyers.

Splitting hairs about what edition D&D is used is pointless. A mustang is still a mustang regardless of the year of the model. It's simple, either you like mustangs or you don't. If you don't, then a person finds something else to drive. Problem solved.

alkarionlog · February 2013

Originally posted by Czanrei
Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by pmaura
This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

You are correct. This is a problem with Wizards of the Coast, not Neverwinter. Video game revenues have surpassed music and movie industry revenues combined. WotC prefer to be a little fish in a big pond rather than be a big fish in a little pond, I suppose. I hate what has happened to the D&D ruleset, but you can see it in other games as well (e.g. Blizzard stripping the Talent system out of WoW).

You both are missing the real issue here with Neverwinter.

No game ever is going to be D&D 100% so people need to stop splitting hairs over the fact that just like when a book is made into a movie it will not be the same because of one major reason. Imagination. D&D (and books) are only as popular as they become because people are able to add their imagination into the story to fit their idea of what is "fun".

As far as Neverwinter goes, it captures the idea of D&D well enough I belive and a heck of a lot better than DDO that doesn't even allow for players to step in as DMs like Neverwinter will.

Lastly, there is absolutely nothing "WoWish" about Neverwinter. Saying that really shows a lack of experience in games if someone is seriously going to try to use that as a arguing point. WoW did not invent the hotbar, nor the quest log, nor anything it currently uses in its game.

Its sad how often new gamers try to label something based on WoW, but unfortunately they still need to be reminded that WoW did not invent anything new to the genre.

I think the main thing here is not like the game really feel 100% like D&D but feel like D&D, neverwinter nights and the NWN 2 did that, you played in a D&D world and know how it was, thing is till now from what I saw it won't be like a D&D jsut a generic hack and slash game I think it is the problem.

Gloreindl · February 2013

I gave 4E a decent shot, playing in a campaign for over a year, and our gaming group all agreed that no matter what we did, 4E sucked. We switched to Pathfinder as soon as it hit the market, and retrofit one of the two campaings back to the 2E version of AD&D. Most of us either were WoW players or former ones (I'll be honest I only lasted a mere month and a half playing WoW before the cartoonish graphics and dumbed down gameplay made it impossible for me to play such a crappy game). We didn't want to play a WoW-esque version of D&D. That said I had high hopes for Neverwinter, that was, until I heard it would be using 4E as its basis. Soured me on ever playing it. From what I have seen, D&D Next (AKA 5E) isn't much better than 4E, as it is a mix of various iterations while keeping some 4E aspects (I droped out of the playtest because of thie). So even had they chosen to use 5E as a basis, it still has no appeal. Shame, as I have fond memories of the original Neverwinter Nights SPI did for AOL. DDO is passable, if barely, but Neverwinter is just not D&D, just like 4E and thus no longer of any interest to this gamer with 33+ years exp. WotC keeps making mistakes with the franchize, and that saddens me. At least Paizo has made a concerted effort to fix many of the ills of D&D 3E and 3.5E. WotC could have learned a lot from them, but has chosen to take a different path. Some like it, but most people I know (I belong to a large 500+ RPG community that generally dislikes what WotC has been doing by a factor of 8 out of every 10 players). That should, but doesn't, make WotC sit up and take notice.

akiira69 · February 2013

Originally posted by pmaura
This game is not the D&D I grew up to love the new rules have defiantly changed it into a more WoWish clone.

All I can think of is that there is no need for a guardian fighter, why, well in 3.5 you can just a spec a fighter that way to be a sword and shield expert, theres also no need for a great weapons fighter becuase you can just spec a fighter to be a specialist in that as well.

In general it feels you lose control of class design and custumization.

Granted this game is good for the 4.0 ruleset but man I think this complaint actually is levied at wizards of the coast and there revamp of the rules then anything else.

A nice opinion but you got the clone part wrong. D&D didnt become a "WoW Clone", WoW is a D&D Clone. The 3.0e & 3.5e rule sets came out before WoW. In fact all CRPG's both offline and online to date are clones of D&D in one facit or another. Did WotC kill D&D with the release of 3.0e 3.5e and 4.0 rule sets? Yes Did they make it a clone of WoW? No. Is there a true "WoW Clone" out there in the world of CRPG's? No and there never will be until Blizzard releases WoW 2: the Search for More Money.

r3dl4nce · February 2013

For who think that D&D is good untile 3.0 / 3.5 ed (eventually Pathfinder), Neverwinter will never have the D&D feeling.

You can't do a lot of customization like in 3.5: no multiclass in NWO, classes have fixed MMO trinity roles tank-heal-dps (trinity roles in a RPG? and tied strictly to a class? WTF????!?!?!), paragon/heroic paths are just a copy of the skill trees like in WoW / Rift, equipment tied to the class (I wanna do a devoted cleric fighting with 2 sword, why I can't?) and so on.

For who like the WoW-ization of the D&D 4th ed., well, you'll love NWO,you have all the theme park wow-clone standards that you like a lot!

Sadly, Cryptic, a wasted opportunity to bring back D&D in the MMO world (I'm still hoping one day we'll have the DDO spiritual heir)

Purutzil · February 2013

It is D&D as its backing, but its 4th edition which isn't really the traditional D&D style most are accustom to which in part plays to why a lot of people don't like the 4th edition as it tends to go for a more 'droned down' system which in my opinion and that of many others weakens the game more then it provides any real strength.

Neverwinter can't really be blamed when its not like they are changing it completely. Its there in the background as much as a game can allow, its just the rule set in 4th edition just pulls away many of those elements that people enjoy about D&D for a much less detailed experience.

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