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Just going to say it: I wish they had made the game 'dumber'

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Comments

  • Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Roxtarr

    I admit that I got pretty confused as far as what to do.  In order to try new weapons/combos I spent a crap ton of time in the starting zone.  Finally when I thought I was ready to move on, I got my arse handed to me by every other mob.  I hate to say it, but this game needed levels.  (not every game needs them, but this game does).  Even at Q level 4, I felt massively under powered with nearly any weapon combo.  

    I did like the first dungeon though.

    build, build and build.  I had the same issue....got out of the first area and got mowed down.  Deleted that toon, went back to the drawing board and came back to the 2nd area with a vengeance....

    Great avatar, wish more people read Bastiat.

     

    Yeah I spent quite a bit of time I guess you could call it grinding but really I was testing things our for my own curiosity and wind up with a decent spread of skills and good builds.  I killed alot of those water zombie guys near the shaodw bug things right before entrance to the next zone.  So  I went in the next zone having kicked the tires on my skills and had both a heavy defense and heavy offense and a build with a bit of both using a few different startegies (passive heals from procs, active heals from rifle, avoidance from chaos, crit procs etc.).

    I both looked for good synergies and also had various things I wanted to figure out.  I settled on a build that synergized with have as many attacks possible to get my procs working quickly.  It took me a number of hours searching through the skill tree etc to settle on chaos/rifle but I also had stuff from a number of other sections and had starts chaos/blade.

    It made the rest of the game way less problematic than for many people.  But it was like I dunno a good 5-10 hours of extra work and my motivation was mostly curiosity.  Simply power hungeriness would not have gotten past 1 or 2 hours.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    TSW addesses this to some degree with nightmare mobs but in this case since its a 50% solution its no real solution.  To kill nightmare mobs you must adjust your rote actions, your rote pre-planned build.  But the gameplay itself is still just as rote.  Once you have determined an appropriate build its business as usual.  Thus you cannot use the same skill build on all  content so the game is not completely rote.  You must occasionally say "Hold on what is this mob types syngery profile?".  But the answer is select build XYX then hit 1 2 3 1 2 3 5 1 2 3 during combat and you just run around and do the same standard MMO tactics you always do while in that area.  You may have 5 sets of rote actions but it still all rote actions. 

    I still disagree that you need to do rote actions with a particular mob -- simply because someone has determined build X works in this case doesn't mean it's the only answer to that scenario.  I regularly use all 7 of my abilities in combat, so I'm still puzzled why so many of these examples show only 3-4 selections in these rote rotations.  And given the number of possible builds (77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 in TSW -- see: http://karl3d.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tsw-builds-final/), I think that perhaps it's lack of player imagination (coupled with narrow-minded leet nightmare group demands) rather than some shortcoming of the ability wheel system.  

    That said, cookie-cutter rotations are a disease of most MMOs, and if TSW has been infected with it (I don't think that it has), it is in good company.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    I'm looking for information on Crawl, gestalt, and not finding anything. Can you give a link?

    dev site

    http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/

    wiki

    http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Crawl_Wiki

    online webtiles (shared player ghosts)

    http://crawl.akrasiac.org:8080/#lobby

    LearnDB

    http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html

    I warn you this game is not for the faint of heart.  I used it for comparison only, most MMO players would run away crying from the game.  Here are some learndb entries:

    Thanks for those -- seriously old school -- I love it!  :)  Somehow all these older games seem to do much, much more, with so much, much less....

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Roxtarr

    I admit that I got pretty confused as far as what to do.  In order to try new weapons/combos I spent a crap ton of time in the starting zone.  Finally when I thought I was ready to move on, I got my arse handed to me by every other mob.  I hate to say it, but this game needed levels.  (not every game needs them, but this game does).  Even at Q level 4, I felt massively under powered with nearly any weapon combo.  

    I did like the first dungeon though.

    build, build and build.  I had the same issue....got out of the first area and got mowed down.  Deleted that toon, went back to the drawing board and came back to the 2nd area with a vengeance....

    Great avatar, wish more people read Bastiat.

     

    Yeah I spent quite a bit of time I guess you could call it grinding but really I was testing things our for my own curiosity and wind up with a decent spread of skills and good builds.  I killed alot of those water zombie guys near the shaodw bug things right before entrance to the next zone.  So  I went in the next zone having kicked the tires on my skills and had both a heavy defense and heavy offense and a build with a bit of both using a few different startegies (passive heals from procs, active heals from rifle, avoidance from chaos, crit procs etc.).

    I both looked for good synergies and also had various things I wanted to figure out.  I settled on a build that synergized with have as many attacks possible to get my procs working quickly.  It took me a number of hours searching through the skill tree etc to settle on chaos/rifle but I also had stuff from a number of other sections and had starts chaos/blade.

    It made the rest of the game way less problematic than for many people.  But it was like I dunno a good 5-10 hours of extra work and my motivation was mostly curiosity.  Simply power hungeriness would not have gotten past 1 or 2 hours.

    thanks!  I wish the same man, trust me.  The guy was just awesome...loved "The Law"

    yeah, I had to tinker a bit to get  great build, but in the end I felt pretty powerful as well.

    image
  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    This game has many, many problems,  It's too bad because it could have been so much more than it is.

    The biggest disappointment about the skill system is that you will still end up building the same character everyone else does if you want the best build for your class and faction.  I would have prefered they took all the extra skills no one uses and made them alternative skills with different animations and visual effects so people could make a more custom character rather than have a bunch of skills no one uses.

    The first thing that turned me off about this game when I got far enough was the elitism for people looking for dungeon groups.   So many people were unwilling to take new players along that it became hard for new players to advance in the dungeon tiers.  This is what happens when your whole game becomes about grinding dungeon runs for the sake of getting gear. 

    I just can't believe this game is a themepark.  This could have been a fantastic hybrid or sandbox with world PvP and it would have been ten thousand times more interesting than it is now.  Intead we get quests and dungeon gear grind.  What a waste.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    TSW addesses this to some degree with nightmare mobs but in this case since its a 50% solution its no real solution.  To kill nightmare mobs you must adjust your rote actions, your rote pre-planned build.  But the gameplay itself is still just as rote.  Once you have determined an appropriate build its business as usual.  Thus you cannot use the same skill build on all  content so the game is not completely rote.  You must occasionally say "Hold on what is this mob types syngery profile?".  But the answer is select build XYX then hit 1 2 3 1 2 3 5 1 2 3 during combat and you just run around and do the same standard MMO tactics you always do while in that area.  You may have 5 sets of rote actions but it still all rote actions. 

    I still disagree that you need to do rote actions with a particular mob -- simply because someone has determined build X works in this case doesn't mean it's the only answer to that scenario.  I regularly use all 7 of my abilities in combat, so I'm still puzzled why so many of these examples show only 3-4 selections in these rote rotations.  And given the number of possible builds (77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 in TSW -- see: http://karl3d.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tsw-builds-final/), I think that perhaps it's lack of player imagination (coupled with narrow-minded leet nightmare group demands) rather than some shortcoming of the ability wheel system.  

    That said, cookie-cutter rotations are a disease of most MMOs, and if TSW has been infected with it (I don't think that it has), it is in good company.

    No its not necessary, but its effective especially when you get a chain of syngeries going which is typically the optimal in effectiveness.  Its not truly necessary for 80% of normal world content.

    The issue is not the you HAVE to do it.  The issue is that its always effective.  Doing the same sequence over and over should get you killed eventually.   Like the game should actively try to kill you if it figures out you keeping doing the same thing over and over.  If for no other reason than simply to preserve fun.  That way sound backwards because its kind of a sadistic thing to say, but its true because unpredictability is a major aspect of fun.

    And yes this is true of almost every MMORPG currently its just that since TSW encourages such freeform building and essentially creating your class (which is a good thing IMO) its more apparent in  a sort of ironic way.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    This game has many, many problems,  It's too bad because it could have been so much more than it is.

    The biggest disappointment about the skill system is that you will still end up building the same character everyone else does if you want the best build for your class and faction.  I would have prefered they took all the extra skills no one uses and made them alternative skills with different animations and visual effects so people could make a more custom character rather than have a bunch of skills no one uses.

    The first thing that turned me off about this game when I got far enough was the elitism for people looking for dungeon groups.   So many people were unwilling to take new players along that it became hard for new players to advance in the dungeon tiers.  This is what happens when your whole game becomes about grinding dungeon runs for the sake of getting gear. 

    I just can't believe this game is a themepark.  This could have been a fantastic hybrid or sandbox with world PvP and it would have been ten thousand times more interesting than it is now.  Intead we get quests and dungeon gear grind.  What a waste.

    Well, you were wanting a sandbox and got a themepark instead, which is going to cause some disappointment no matter what.  That said, for a themepark, it does what it does in the PvE space very, very well.  The missions are challenging, you have to think, both in the investigations and in figuring out combat builds.  The community is friendlier than most, I think in part due to the learning curve of the game and the different approach (modern day, class-free, level-free, investigation missions, the ability wheel); lots of people there to help out newbies.  The RP community is also pretty active, and the progression is surprisingly horizontal at high levels (only 10.5 levels of gear), and the ability wheel emphasizes flexibility over pure power progression.

    Not everyone decides to go for the gear grind either, though it is there for the people who want it.  Even so, some folks in the community started newbie paths for doing the elite dungeons -- specifically NOT requiring an special build.  

    Yeah, would love to see more sandbox elements -- flagged open world PvP is coming, perhaps an expanded crafting system and player housing.  Some talk of adding more metagame elements.  We'll see, but from what I tell, the devs are thinking in the right direction, it's just gonna take some time.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    TSW addesses this to some degree with nightmare mobs but in this case since its a 50% solution its no real solution.  To kill nightmare mobs you must adjust your rote actions, your rote pre-planned build.  But the gameplay itself is still just as rote.  Once you have determined an appropriate build its business as usual.  Thus you cannot use the same skill build on all  content so the game is not completely rote.  You must occasionally say "Hold on what is this mob types syngery profile?".  But the answer is select build XYX then hit 1 2 3 1 2 3 5 1 2 3 during combat and you just run around and do the same standard MMO tactics you always do while in that area.  You may have 5 sets of rote actions but it still all rote actions. 

    I still disagree that you need to do rote actions with a particular mob -- simply because someone has determined build X works in this case doesn't mean it's the only answer to that scenario.  I regularly use all 7 of my abilities in combat, so I'm still puzzled why so many of these examples show only 3-4 selections in these rote rotations.  And given the number of possible builds (77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 in TSW -- see: http://karl3d.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tsw-builds-final/), I think that perhaps it's lack of player imagination (coupled with narrow-minded leet nightmare group demands) rather than some shortcoming of the ability wheel system.  

    That said, cookie-cutter rotations are a disease of most MMOs, and if TSW has been infected with it (I don't think that it has), it is in good company.

    No its not necessary, but its effective especially when you get a chain of syngeries going which is typically the optimal in effectiveness.  Its not truly necessary for 80% of normal world content.

    The issue is not the you HAVE to do it.  The issue is that its always effective.  Doing the same sequence over and over should get you killed eventually.   Like the game should actively try to kill you if it figures out you keeping doing the same thing over and over.  If for no other reason than simply to preserve fun.  That way sound backwards because its kind of a sadistic thing to say, but its true because unpredictability is a major aspect of fun.

    And yes this is true of almost every MMORPG currently its just that since TSW encourages such freeform building and essentially creating your class (which is a good thing IMO) its more apparent in  a sort of ironic way.

    Hmm, I'm not sure I want a game that simply changes the rules to make itself harder.  I see where you are coming from, though.  Not knowing exactly what to expect everytime you encounter a mob would make for a challenging game for sure.

    But I would think that most mobs are going to have cultural/biological aspects to them that keep them fighting using a particular style and using similar abilities, magic and weapons.  There's lots of room for variation with the bosses and elite mobs, of course, who are more likely to switch up their tactics.  Giving a boss completely different abilities every time or switching out the boss each time would be challenge to program, but more again, you also have to think about the game from a lore aspect; I don't know that I'd want a completely random set of traits each time.  

    Now I could see bosses using very different TACTICS every time, intelligently switching up their abilities to match the challenge of the party.  Not blindly attacking the tank every time, when it's obvious the dps'ers are causing the worst damage.  Or intelligently targeting healers.  That's something I could get on board with.

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    No its not necessary, but its effective especially when you get a chain of syngeries going which is typically the optimal in effectiveness.  Its not truly necessary for 80% of normal world content.

    The issue is not the you HAVE to do it.  The issue is that its always effective.  Doing the same sequence over and over should get you killed eventually.   Like the game should actively try to kill you if it figures out you keeping doing the same thing over and over.  If for no other reason than simply to preserve fun.  That way sound backwards because its kind of a sadistic thing to say, but its true because unpredictability is a major aspect of fun.

    And yes this is true of almost every MMORPG currently its just that since TSW encourages such freeform building and essentially creating your class (which is a good thing IMO) its more apparent in  a sort of ironic way.

    One of TSW's problems is that it can be compared to Guild Wars 1. Unfortunately for TSW, GW1 has superior combat and deck customization for a few reasons, some of which you already mentioned:

    1) Less synergy. Synergy is great, but having to do X in order to trigger Y that willl cause Z and let you trigger SSS leads to 1234 rotations. A 1234 rotation might as well be a single skill. GW1 avoided this by making most combos only require two skills, although it did have some problems with excesive synergy, too.

    2) Enemies' actions triggering skills. "If your target is moving, it's knocked down." "If your target is casting a spell, that spell is interrupted and target starts bleeding." Skills like this make combat more fun by letting you interact with your opponent on another level.

    3) Situational skills. "Attack 50% faster, but receive twice as much damage." "Interrupt target's action, but give him 5 energy." Skills like this make combat smarter and more rewarding.

    4) Strategic skills. "Place a Ward at your current location that lasts 20 seconds. Enemies move 50% slower in this Ward." Skills like this let you affect the battlefield in a lasting way and force your opponents to rethink their strategy.

    I haven't unlocked the entire skill wheel yet, but at least my character doesn't seem to have any abilities of this kind. All of my abilities do damage, cause Conditions, buff me, give me Resources or benefit from Resources/Conditions in some way. They're boring. When I see another ability that does +25% damage if its target is Hindered, I don't get excited about unlocking it.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scalpless
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    No its not necessary, but its effective especially when you get a chain of syngeries going which is typically the optimal in effectiveness.  Its not truly necessary for 80% of normal world content.

    The issue is not the you HAVE to do it.  The issue is that its always effective.  Doing the same sequence over and over should get you killed eventually.   Like the game should actively try to kill you if it figures out you keeping doing the same thing over and over.  If for no other reason than simply to preserve fun.  That way sound backwards because its kind of a sadistic thing to say, but its true because unpredictability is a major aspect of fun.

    And yes this is true of almost every MMORPG currently its just that since TSW encourages such freeform building and essentially creating your class (which is a good thing IMO) its more apparent in  a sort of ironic way.

    One of TSW's problems is that it can be compared to Guild Wars 1. Unfortunately for TSW, GW1 has superior combat and deck customization for a few reasons, some of which you already mentioned:

    1) Less synergy. Synergy is great, but having to do X in order to trigger Y that willl cause Z and let you trigger SSS leads to 1234 rotations. A 1234 rotation might as well be a single skill. GW1 avoided this by making most combos only require two skills, although it did have some problems with excesive synergy, too.

    2) Enemies' actions triggering skills. "If your target is moving, it's knocked down." "If your target is casting a spell, that spell is interrupted and target starts bleeding." Skills like this make combat more fun by letting you interact with your opponent on another level.

    3) Situational skills. "Attack 50% faster, but receive twice as much damage." "Interrupt target's action, but give him 5 energy." Skills like this make combat smarter and more rewarding.

    4) Strategic skills. "Place a Ward at your current location that lasts 20 seconds. Enemies move 50% slower in this Ward." Skills like this let you affect the battlefield in a lasting way and force your opponents to rethink their strategy.

    I haven't unlocked the entire skill wheel yet, but at least my character doesn't seem to have any abilities of this kind. All of my abilities do damage, cause Conditions, buff me, give me Resources or benefit from Resources/Conditions in some way. They're boring. When I see another ability that does +25% damage if its target is Hindered, I don't get excited about unlocking it.

    The aux weapons and wheel seem to be where TSW is doing these sorts of things -- the new weapons come with all sorts of special abilities, and it looks like the whip is the latest addition (Issue 6):

    "The vicious Whip can be used for great area damage, but also for buffing your team or sneaky crowd control. Use the Whip to encourage your team mates to run faster or snare tricky opponents and pull them towards you."

    This nice thing about the wheel model is that the wheels can be expanded with lots of new abilities and weapons.  And given that the wheels are simply the pools of abilities, the progression is more horizontal.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,783Member Uncommon
    when i play TSW i really dont care about the skill builds. I get the active skills that i like and add the passives that directly impact my active ones. I just hope that theres no cookie cutter flavor of the month builds in order to join groups because that would suck... i play what i want not what others need.

    image
  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    when i play TSW i really dont care about the skill builds. I get the active skills that i like and add the passives that directly impact my active ones. I just hope that theres no cookie cutter flavor of the month builds in order to join groups because that would suck... i play what i want not what others need.

    Many leet nightmare groups will try to force you into a cookie cutter, but there are also groups that tackle the nightmares without all the critiera, and experiment with builds.

  • BjelarBjelar RullumpPosts: 384Member
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    when i play TSW i really dont care about the skill builds. I get the active skills that i like and add the passives that directly impact my active ones. I just hope that theres no cookie cutter flavor of the month builds in order to join groups because that would suck... i play what i want not what others need.

     

    I am terribly sorry, but you won't find a group. The elitist will let you play the way you like - in Kingsmouth, not in his NM group :(

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bjelar
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    when i play TSW i really dont care about the skill builds. I get the active skills that i like and add the passives that directly impact my active ones. I just hope that theres no cookie cutter flavor of the month builds in order to join groups because that would suck... i play what i want not what others need.

    I am terribly sorry, but you won't find a group. The elitist will let you play the way you like - in Kingsmouth, not in his NM group :(

    Ignore the elitists and find one of the other groups doing nightmares:

    http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62768

  • Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    TSW addesses this to some degree with nightmare mobs but in this case since its a 50% solution its no real solution.  To kill nightmare mobs you must adjust your rote actions, your rote pre-planned build.  But the gameplay itself is still just as rote.  Once you have determined an appropriate build its business as usual.  Thus you cannot use the same skill build on all  content so the game is not completely rote.  You must occasionally say "Hold on what is this mob types syngery profile?".  But the answer is select build XYX then hit 1 2 3 1 2 3 5 1 2 3 during combat and you just run around and do the same standard MMO tactics you always do while in that area.  You may have 5 sets of rote actions but it still all rote actions. 

    I still disagree that you need to do rote actions with a particular mob -- simply because someone has determined build X works in this case doesn't mean it's the only answer to that scenario.  I regularly use all 7 of my abilities in combat, so I'm still puzzled why so many of these examples show only 3-4 selections in these rote rotations.  And given the number of possible builds (77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 in TSW -- see: http://karl3d.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tsw-builds-final/), I think that perhaps it's lack of player imagination (coupled with narrow-minded leet nightmare group demands) rather than some shortcoming of the ability wheel system.  

    That said, cookie-cutter rotations are a disease of most MMOs, and if TSW has been infected with it (I don't think that it has), it is in good company.

    No its not necessary, but its effective especially when you get a chain of syngeries going which is typically the optimal in effectiveness.  Its not truly necessary for 80% of normal world content.

    The issue is not the you HAVE to do it.  The issue is that its always effective.  Doing the same sequence over and over should get you killed eventually.   Like the game should actively try to kill you if it figures out you keeping doing the same thing over and over.  If for no other reason than simply to preserve fun.  That way sound backwards because its kind of a sadistic thing to say, but its true because unpredictability is a major aspect of fun.

    And yes this is true of almost every MMORPG currently its just that since TSW encourages such freeform building and essentially creating your class (which is a good thing IMO) its more apparent in  a sort of ironic way.

    Hmm, I'm not sure I want a game that simply changes the rules to make itself harder.  I see where you are coming from, though.  Not knowing exactly what to expect everytime you encounter a mob would make for a challenging game for sure.

    But I would think that most mobs are going to have cultural/biological aspects to them that keep them fighting using a particular style and using similar abilities, magic and weapons.  There's lots of room for variation with the bosses and elite mobs, of course, who are more likely to switch up their tactics.  Giving a boss completely different abilities every time or switching out the boss each time would be challenge to program, but more again, you also have to think about the game from a lore aspect; I don't know that I'd want a completely random set of traits each time.  

    Now I could see bosses using very different TACTICS every time, intelligently switching up their abilities to match the challenge of the party.  Not blindly attacking the tank every time, when it's obvious the dps'ers are causing the worst damage.  Or intelligently targeting healers.  That's something I could get on board with.

    Yes  I understand and my statement wasn't mean to be a good design or implementation so much as to make a point.  I don't know that the best way to get a decent effect of this in the context of a single shared static world.  It may not really even be practical.   But you get the main overarching point.

  • drakaenadrakaena Posts: 488Member Uncommon
    I only played TSW for about 1 hr during one of their beta's, so obviously my opinion isn't based on any in-game experience, but seriously, how hard is it to type "TSW (perferred build) PvE/PvP" into Google. Done and done.
  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    Originally posted by Bjelar
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    when i play TSW i really dont care about the skill builds. I get the active skills that i like and add the passives that directly impact my active ones. I just hope that theres no cookie cutter flavor of the month builds in order to join groups because that would suck... i play what i want not what others need.

     

    I am terribly sorry, but you won't find a group. The elitist will let you play the way you like - in Kingsmouth, not in his NM group :(

    Actually i run with a cabal that encourages changing builds up and finding new things. and we have cleared every nightmare run in the game with Master Planner aswell.

     

    The only requirement we have is to be on vent and listen to us on Boss Mechanics. In terms of build we will tell you how well its doing and maybe give ways to improve it. however cookie cutter isnt how we do things.

     

    This isnt a advertisement so i wont give out our cabal name unless absolutely nessessary.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    TSW addesses this to some degree with nightmare mobs but in this case since its a 50% solution its no real solution.  To kill nightmare mobs you must adjust your rote actions, your rote pre-planned build.  But the gameplay itself is still just as rote.  Once you have determined an appropriate build its business as usual.  Thus you cannot use the same skill build on all  content so the game is not completely rote.  You must occasionally say "Hold on what is this mob types syngery profile?".  But the answer is select build XYX then hit 1 2 3 1 2 3 5 1 2 3 during combat and you just run around and do the same standard MMO tactics you always do while in that area.  You may have 5 sets of rote actions but it still all rote actions. 

    I still disagree that you need to do rote actions with a particular mob -- simply because someone has determined build X works in this case doesn't mean it's the only answer to that scenario.  I regularly use all 7 of my abilities in combat, so I'm still puzzled why so many of these examples show only 3-4 selections in these rote rotations.  And given the number of possible builds (77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 in TSW -- see: http://karl3d.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tsw-builds-final/), I think that perhaps it's lack of player imagination (coupled with narrow-minded leet nightmare group demands) rather than some shortcoming of the ability wheel system.  

    That said, cookie-cutter rotations are a disease of most MMOs, and if TSW has been infected with it (I don't think that it has), it is in good company.

    No its not necessary, but its effective especially when you get a chain of syngeries going which is typically the optimal in effectiveness.  Its not truly necessary for 80% of normal world content.

    The issue is not the you HAVE to do it.  The issue is that its always effective.  Doing the same sequence over and over should get you killed eventually.   Like the game should actively try to kill you if it figures out you keeping doing the same thing over and over.  If for no other reason than simply to preserve fun.  That way sound backwards because its kind of a sadistic thing to say, but its true because unpredictability is a major aspect of fun.

    And yes this is true of almost every MMORPG currently its just that since TSW encourages such freeform building and essentially creating your class (which is a good thing IMO) its more apparent in  a sort of ironic way.

    Hmm, I'm not sure I want a game that simply changes the rules to make itself harder.  I see where you are coming from, though.  Not knowing exactly what to expect everytime you encounter a mob would make for a challenging game for sure.

    But I would think that most mobs are going to have cultural/biological aspects to them that keep them fighting using a particular style and using similar abilities, magic and weapons.  There's lots of room for variation with the bosses and elite mobs, of course, who are more likely to switch up their tactics.  Giving a boss completely different abilities every time or switching out the boss each time would be challenge to program, but more again, you also have to think about the game from a lore aspect; I don't know that I'd want a completely random set of traits each time.  

    Now I could see bosses using very different TACTICS every time, intelligently switching up their abilities to match the challenge of the party.  Not blindly attacking the tank every time, when it's obvious the dps'ers are causing the worst damage.  Or intelligently targeting healers.  That's something I could get on board with.

    Yes  I understand and my statement wasn't mean to be a good design or implementation so much as to make a point.  I don't know that the best way to get a decent effect of this in the context of a single shared static world.  It may not really even be practical.   But you get the main overarching point.

    I do, and it's something I wish more games would take to heart.  The more the game can remove mindless repetition in any form, the better; that said, it can't be so difficult that it pisses enough people off that not enough people are playing your game.  

    I do like the idea of boss/elite "intelligent strategy" that can size up a party, make some decisions about the weak points of the group, and use abilities effectively to make it hard on the team.  Different party mixes, of course, call for the boss to do something different -- this way, not so easy to just post a YouTube for everyone to copy.  Find ways to counter Google!  This, by the way, might also allow for some non-trinity mixes in the party as well -- bring in the special teams.  :)

    I remember when we first ran the slaver series of dungeons in the original AD&D campaigns, and everyone was amazed that the monsters were acting intelligently and using real tactics.  One of the most fun at tabletop we ever had.

     

  • PrimernovaPrimernova Muncie, INPosts: 7Member

    What holds TSW back is it's terrible preformance. No one is going to try for end game if they are running at 30 FPS in a backyard, with a 3570k and a GTX670 or better. Even with those specs, the graphics look terrible in DX11 to put that much strain on a new PC.

    This is classic Funcom, bad coding. I dealt with this in AO, years ago. An amazing game but FML, even after playing for 4 years and upgrading 10X past the recommended specs, I still ran at 10-30 fps...

    Smoothness is required for an MMO, gameplay will be ignored if this is not put forth first.

  • DrowNobleDrowNoble Trenton, MIPosts: 1,296Member
    Originally posted by Bjelar
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    when i play TSW i really dont care about the skill builds. I get the active skills that i like and add the passives that directly impact my active ones. I just hope that theres no cookie cutter flavor of the month builds in order to join groups because that would suck... i play what i want not what others need.

     

    I am terribly sorry, but you won't find a group. The elitist will let you play the way you like - in Kingsmouth, not in his NM group :(

    Not true, especially if you're a healer or tank build. If that NM group really needs a tank they'll take you.  As long as you're doing your tanking job correctly I don't think they will care what your build is.  Same with a healer.  My tank is Chaos/Fist with Chainsaw and tanks just fine.

  • platonicxplatonicx CBPosts: 21Member

    You people seem to use the term elitist too much here.

    Its not just about the builds. You also need to have experience with the dungeon.

     

    I looked for/ founded learning groups for The ankh.

    I spent about 20 hours of wiping learning the dungeon mechanics in The ankh over the course of 5 days. 

    I suffered (although strengly enough thats fun for me) and i learned how to do it to the point where i almost dont make mistakes in that dungeon anymore.

    Now when i look for a group or for members i look for pll who are past the same point as i am.

     

    If you arent experienced with a dungeon u make a learning group.

    Thats not elitism thats common sense.

     

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    Wow make the game dumber.  Look  if you get stuck there is always google.  If your really stuck there is a site unfair.com that has a walkthough guide for every quest. 

    Honestly the one thing I liked about the game is it made you think. 

     

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ashleymorrow

    I wish they had a "dumb mode"

    No this is whats bad about MMORPGS these days they are too dumbed down..

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