I cannot believe you guys have been arguing the same points with mostly the same people for 7 pages. When do one of you decide... "ok my ego has had enough pontificating" and then just drop it ?
The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.
People give millions in blood and treasure to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.
I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter.
You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.
You have not a clue what you're talking about. This has nothing whatsoever to do with CU. Go back read the definition of the word donation. Use the entire definition. Don't just pick out individual words and ignore the rest.
You were wrong, you said they have no legal obligation but they do. You are wrong about everything.
Actually it is you who are wrong, again.
From the Kickstarter Website"
"Backing a project is more than just giving someone money, it's supporting their dream to create something that they want to see exist in the world."
So obviously it is giving them money.
"Some projects that are funded on Kickstarter may go on to make money, but backers are supporting projects to help them come to life, not financially profit."
So it is not an investment.
"Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it."
and finally:
"If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers."
So even kickstarter are pretty fuzzy about that return of money thing.
The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.
People give millions in blood and treasure to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.
I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter.
You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.
You have not a clue what you're talking about. This has nothing whatsoever to do with CU. Go back read the definition of the word donation. Use the entire definition. Don't just pick out individual words and ignore the rest.
You were wrong, you said they have no legal obligation but they do. You are wrong about everything.
It says they "may" be sued. Not by kickstarter, donors on their own there. Courts decide if there is a a legal obligation not internet crowdsourcing sites. That doesn't mean they ever have to actually complete the project or if they do that you'll own any part of it.
Own a part of it, when did anyone bring that up? You're just building strawmen now. They are legally obligated to complete it, your argument is predicated on the fact they don't. That is what you said. You are wrong. The fact that you don't know that, tells me you know nothing about KS.
The only reason for you to continue to trash KS is because you don't want CU to succeed. You don't understand KS, but that doesn't matter to you, you just want to trash it and be extension CU.
But I'm done with this thread I admit it your hatred for CU is more powerful than my love of Kickstarter.
Everyone else: Go to Kickstarter and learn for yourself.
If you want to refute the facts I've shown you, by all means do.
You did not present any facts, you just keep seeking the 3 people to agree with you...
Fact of the matter is Father_jack and Stanghugegigantorname do not want to provide an opinion they expect others to conform to what they want, and are very willing to argue adnauseum until we all capitulate. For this reason i am gonna go fund a KickStarter project in there honor.
The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.
People give millions in blood and treasure to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.
I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter.
You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.
You have not a clue what you're talking about. This has nothing whatsoever to do with CU. Go back read the definition of the word donation. Use the entire definition. Don't just pick out individual words and ignore the rest.
You were wrong, you said they have no legal obligation but they do. You are wrong about everything.
It says they "may" be sued. Not by kickstarter, donors on their own there. Courts decide if there is a a legal obligation not internet crowdsourcing sites. That doesn't mean they ever have to actually complete the project or if they do that you'll own any part of it.
Own a part of it, when did anyone bring that up? You're just building strawmen now. They are legally obligated to complete it, your argument is predicated on the fact they don't. That is what you said. You are wrong. The fact that you don't know that, tells me you know nothing about KS.
The only reason for you to continue to trash KS is because you don't want CU to succeed. You don't understand KS, but that doesn't matter to you, you just want to trash it and be extension CU.
But I'm done with this thread I admit it your hatred for CU is more powerful than my love of Kickstarter.
Everyone else: Go to Kickstarter and learn for yourself.
By all means go and learn about Kickstarter, and other crowd funding options. It is an excellent way of providing money for a creative person. When the project succedes, enjoy the satisfaction of having been part of it.
Just do not be conned by the Father_Jack s of the world. It is money you give, in a desire to see either the creator or the project succede. Not a deposit on a game, or a pre-purchase or an investment a simple gift, so moderate your giving to what you can afford to give and never ever hassle the creative person at the other end for your money back provided they make a genuine attempt at the project. Mark and his company will make a genuine attempt at CU, if you want to give money to the project go ahead, confident your money will be used for the purpose stated. But once given its gone no comebacks.
You know guys, it IS actually OK to quote someone, but remove some of the middle quotes...there is no point in leaving the quotes of 4+ people there other than to take up the entire page.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
By all means go and learn about Kickstarter, and other crowd funding options. It is an excellent way of providing money for a creative person. When the project succedes, enjoy the satisfaction of having been part of it.
Just do not be conned by the Father_Jack s of the world. It is money you give, in a desire to see either the creator or the project succede. Not a deposit on a game, or a pre-purchase or an investment a simple gift, so moderate your giving to what you can afford to give and never ever hassle the creative person at the other end for your money back provided they make a genuine attempt at the project. Mark and his company will make a genuine attempt at CU, if you want to give money to the project go ahead, confident your money will be used for the purpose stated. But once given its gone no comebacks.
I don't disagree with this at all. Go ahead, find a worthy kickstarter and support it. But, if its an MMORPG, realize the odds of it resulting in a completed, well made game that YOU enjoy is pretty miniscule. DOn't do it because you think it means the players have a say in the project, they don't. Just because you pledge doesnt give you *ANY* right at all to be in the decision making process. And a good developer will listen to the players very sparingly in the development process anyway, because the best way to make a great game is to make a game that YOU, the developer, want to play. This is why WoW vanilla was so great and its gotten worse and worse, because they initially made the game they wanted to play and have switched philosophies since.
I personally wouldnt support a guy like Jaobs doing a kickstarter. Not because of his past projects themselves, but because he has the ability to secure funding through normal means but is instead taking advantage of people that will pledge for the wrong reasons (like thinking the only option other than crowd funding is going to a place like EA that will put their fingerprints all over the game). While its not a scam in the sense that I believe Mark will try to make a good game, I dont like passing the risk on to your customers when you dont have to, especially since the majority of them dont even understand the risks.
I also don't like the fact that he is requiring such a large amount of money in order to even try to make the game. It signals he isnt as passionate about making CU as he should be, because if he was that passionate about it he would make it regardless.
Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones.
True.
The Kickstarter doesn't start until March.
They can't find conventional funding because every time this formula has been tried it's been a financial failure. If your definition of good is a MMO that never made any money I suppose it's true.
I'm sorry, but what fantasy land do you live in?
It's the WoW clones that have all been huge flops. They usually flop so hard they take the company that made them with them. Two of Funcom's partners went bankrupt after Age of Conan flopped. SWTOR destroyed most of Bioware and Mythic, and crippled EA for a couple of months too.
The only MMOs that have done really well over the years, post WoW, are the ones that do unique things, with solid execution, then build on it. See: Eve, Darkfall. Those games have grown over time, while all WoW clones have died within weeks of launch.
Publishers don't know jack all about MMOs. Hence why we've been in an MMO dark age for almost 8 years now.
Darkfall was a dismal financial failure.
Stopped reading there. You obviously have no clue about the industry.
Darkfall is one of the only MMOs in the last 8 years to grow after launch.
The dev team went from about 20 devs, on a one million dollar budget, making a game over the course of 5 years.
They've since, started selling boxed copies, opened a second server, hired 40 more developers, moved into a bigger office. Released 3 expansions AND a sequel.
How do you do that if you're a dismal financial failure?
And never exceeeded 50k subscribers ( a very generous overestimation) or paid back the multi million dollar loans and investments taken out over a period of years. The sequal is an even worse disaster. Do you know anything about the history of Aventurine?
Exceeding 50k subscribers is not important. Growth and profit is important. SWTOR exceeded 1 million subs, yet its a total disaster and the company behind it crumbled into dust. Aventurine though, has flourished with their under 50k subs.
They never had multi million dollar loans.
The sequel isn't even out yet, so good luck trying to convince anyone its a disaster.
Do you know anything about... the world?
Would you care to tell me what the Chinese investors, Trond Heier, banks in Norway, and Greece were doing giving Razorwax/Aventurine money during Darkfall's development? Making donations? Million went into making that disaster. None of it was paid back. The sequal failed it's launch. It's failing it's beta. An MMO with less than 50k subscribers isn't a sucessful MMO. Hell it's not even a decent bargain bin game. When are you people going to quit denying Darkfall never actually met any of it's financial goals?
The company behind SWtoR crumbled into dust? When did EA cease to exist? I must have missed that news report. Even now SWtoR has more subscribers than Darkfall and it's F2P.
Wow. You must be the worlds largest retard.
There were no Chinese investors for Darkfall. The money AV got for Darkfall is well documented, it did not exceed 1.2 million dollars. And if it was never payed back, as you claim, how is AV not only still in business, but bringing on more develpers? And how does a game that hasn't even launched get considered a failure?
A growing MMO, in a genre that hasn't seen a growing MMO company since the launch of WoW, is a success.
And yes, the Mythic/Bioware branch responsible for SWTOR lost a huge chunk of its devs, the two founders of Bioware "retired" together, and EA had one of its worst fiscal years in the history of its company, shutting down multiple branches.
Little basic math... 300 million to make, no subscribers, firing developers = a BIGGER success than 1 million to make, a modest number of subscribers, and a growing company/hiring developers?
A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?
It doesn't compute. If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.
But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back. The whole thing seems off to me.
Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed. If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.
Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing. For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.
The line highlighted proves you don't know how kickstarter works...
If they dont' meet the goal they return the cash, and if you pay into Kickstarter its not a donation, you are getting something for that money. Nothing about it is free.
Edit: If you think people will buy into a kickstarter for a "buggy mess" then sure continue to think that. The rest of us will think that you are pretty much entirely off base.
You are acting like this is some sort of snake oil salesman. Try having an open mind.
Exactly. The OP doesn't understand Kickstarter, nor does s/he understand that once you take on investors, you slowly but surely lose control of your proejct, company, etc. It's pretty simple.
Also, if the OP is so against Kickstarter and apparently has no intention of supporting this game, why bother with this thread at all?
I don't disagree with this at all. Go ahead, find a worthy kickstarter and support it. But, if its an MMORPG, realize the odds of it resulting in a completed, well made game that YOU enjoy is pretty miniscule. DOn't do it because you think it means the players have a say in the project, they don't. Just because you pledge doesnt give you *ANY* right at all to be in the decision making process. And a good developer will listen to the players very sparingly in the development process anyway, because the best way to make a great game is to make a game that YOU, the developer, want to play. This is why WoW vanilla was so great and its gotten worse and worse, because they initially made the game they wanted to play and have switched philosophies since.
I personally wouldnt support a guy like Jaobs doing a kickstarter. Not because of his past projects themselves, but because he has the ability to secure funding through normal means but is instead taking advantage of people that will pledge for the wrong reasons (like thinking the only option other than crowd funding is going to a place like EA that will put their fingerprints all over the game). While its not a scam in the sense that I believe Mark will try to make a good game, I dont like passing the risk on to your customers when you dont have to, especially since the majority of them dont even understand the risks.
I also don't like the fact that he is requiring such a large amount of money in order to even try to make the game. It signals he isnt as passionate about making CU as he should be, because if he was that passionate about it he would make it regardless.
Don't like it, don't play. Where's the confusion? Why are you whining and complaining about something you are clearly not going to support? What do you care?
Also, Mark is being very up front about the "Founding Principles" of the game, and if someone doesn't like them, they aren't going to give any money via Kickstarter.
As for the Kickstarter debate, often people do in fact get something out of the money pledged. It's called a ROI.
Comments
QFT you clearly don't.
WOW !
I cannot believe you guys have been arguing the same points with mostly the same people for 7 pages. When do one of you decide... "ok my ego has had enough pontificating" and then just drop it ?
HOLY COW
Lolipops !
No, you! geesh. support it or dont, no one cares.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
Actually it is you who are wrong, again.
From the Kickstarter Website"
"Backing a project is more than just giving someone money, it's supporting their dream to create something that they want to see exist in the world."
So obviously it is giving them money.
"Some projects that are funded on Kickstarter may go on to make money, but backers are supporting projects to help them come to life, not financially profit."
So it is not an investment.
"Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it."
and finally:
"If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers."
So even kickstarter are pretty fuzzy about that return of money thing.
You did not present any facts, you just keep seeking the 3 people to agree with you...
Own a part of it, when did anyone bring that up? You're just building strawmen now. They are legally obligated to complete it, your argument is predicated on the fact they don't. That is what you said. You are wrong. The fact that you don't know that, tells me you know nothing about KS.
The only reason for you to continue to trash KS is because you don't want CU to succeed. You don't understand KS, but that doesn't matter to you, you just want to trash it and be extension CU.
But I'm done with this thread I admit it your hatred for CU is more powerful than my love of Kickstarter.
Everyone else: Go to Kickstarter and learn for yourself.
Fact of the matter is Father_jack and Stanghugegigantorname do not want to provide an opinion they expect others to conform to what they want, and are very willing to argue adnauseum until we all capitulate. For this reason i am gonna go fund a KickStarter project in there honor.
Lolipops !
By all means go and learn about Kickstarter, and other crowd funding options. It is an excellent way of providing money for a creative person. When the project succedes, enjoy the satisfaction of having been part of it.
Just do not be conned by the Father_Jack s of the world. It is money you give, in a desire to see either the creator or the project succede. Not a deposit on a game, or a pre-purchase or an investment a simple gift, so moderate your giving to what you can afford to give and never ever hassle the creative person at the other end for your money back provided they make a genuine attempt at the project. Mark and his company will make a genuine attempt at CU, if you want to give money to the project go ahead, confident your money will be used for the purpose stated. But once given its gone no comebacks.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I don't disagree with this at all. Go ahead, find a worthy kickstarter and support it. But, if its an MMORPG, realize the odds of it resulting in a completed, well made game that YOU enjoy is pretty miniscule. DOn't do it because you think it means the players have a say in the project, they don't. Just because you pledge doesnt give you *ANY* right at all to be in the decision making process. And a good developer will listen to the players very sparingly in the development process anyway, because the best way to make a great game is to make a game that YOU, the developer, want to play. This is why WoW vanilla was so great and its gotten worse and worse, because they initially made the game they wanted to play and have switched philosophies since.
I personally wouldnt support a guy like Jaobs doing a kickstarter. Not because of his past projects themselves, but because he has the ability to secure funding through normal means but is instead taking advantage of people that will pledge for the wrong reasons (like thinking the only option other than crowd funding is going to a place like EA that will put their fingerprints all over the game). While its not a scam in the sense that I believe Mark will try to make a good game, I dont like passing the risk on to your customers when you dont have to, especially since the majority of them dont even understand the risks.
I also don't like the fact that he is requiring such a large amount of money in order to even try to make the game. It signals he isnt as passionate about making CU as he should be, because if he was that passionate about it he would make it regardless.
Wow. You must be the worlds largest retard.
There were no Chinese investors for Darkfall. The money AV got for Darkfall is well documented, it did not exceed 1.2 million dollars. And if it was never payed back, as you claim, how is AV not only still in business, but bringing on more develpers? And how does a game that hasn't even launched get considered a failure?
A growing MMO, in a genre that hasn't seen a growing MMO company since the launch of WoW, is a success.
And yes, the Mythic/Bioware branch responsible for SWTOR lost a huge chunk of its devs, the two founders of Bioware "retired" together, and EA had one of its worst fiscal years in the history of its company, shutting down multiple branches.
Little basic math... 300 million to make, no subscribers, firing developers = a BIGGER success than 1 million to make, a modest number of subscribers, and a growing company/hiring developers?
Go home.
coming from someone that thinks a game with a total development time of TWELVE YEARS only cost 1.2 million to make...
It's the newest rage. All the cool kids are doing it.
^^
Darkfall was in development for five years under Aventurine.
Check your facts kid.
Exactly. The OP doesn't understand Kickstarter, nor does s/he understand that once you take on investors, you slowly but surely lose control of your proejct, company, etc. It's pretty simple.
Also, if the OP is so against Kickstarter and apparently has no intention of supporting this game, why bother with this thread at all?
Don't like it, don't play. Where's the confusion? Why are you whining and complaining about something you are clearly not going to support? What do you care?
Also, Mark is being very up front about the "Founding Principles" of the game, and if someone doesn't like them, they aren't going to give any money via Kickstarter.
As for the Kickstarter debate, often people do in fact get something out of the money pledged. It's called a ROI.