Asian games vs western is a silly debate. Just like if you prefer a cheeseburger over sushi.
A korean game is in my top 3 MMORPGs of all time
1. Everquest 2. DAOC 3. Aion
The argument started as mr anonymous saying that EvE was only a minor success because MMORPGs make a killing in the east.
And the main point of the argument is that its stupid to compare because the demographics are so different. pay to win works there, and doesnt here. Thats a rather large difference that cant be ignored, neither can the cultural differences.
Im sure the top 10 games from the 35+ demographic (which is a huge demogrpahic in the west) are all western games. However people over the age of 30 generally dont play MMOs in the east.
Well if you think about it in a certain way Everquest and all the other games published by SOE are published by a Japanese Company (Sony the parent) so does that make them Western or Asian?
As to the 35+ demographic (of which I am a part) on what basis do you say it is huge? Please do not quote that general gaming suvey that only broke down gamers by age for the whole categorey of games and not specificaly MMORPG players.
There are multiple studies done by Nick Yee, the recent ones seem to be offline now. But his findings were the average age of a US WoW player is 33 (I think China was somewhere around 23). Was a definitel bell curve (much like the EQ2 link).
Im sure some games skew younger (TERA, for instance) and some skew older (EQ1), but its fairly safe to assume the average age of an MMORPG player is somewhere in the early 30s Which would make the 35+ crowd a fairly significant portion. Not a majority, but at least a 3rd.
Yee's study showed their were a higher percentage of 50+ yr old US WoW players than 30+ yr old Chinese WoW players. Its a shame its offline now, it was pretty fascinating.
His studies over the years have shown the biggest demographic growth is women. Women are close to 40% of WoW players now. He also found that women tend to be collectors more than males. Which makes the whole pokemon addition to MoP (and its big success)make more sense.
Originally posted by Mortemia The thing is... When you have a homepage from the 90s, it makes me wonder what kind of games you are doing. Just some healthy skeptism.
wow really...yeah worthy point guy. because big ol fancy 2013 technology websites equals a great game. You must be the guy that buys all products with fancy packaging.
Well, I'd just call it basic understanding of marketing. If you ask money from people, why not try to make yourself seem more credible since it is 2013 afterall. Webpage is probably the easiest thing to do and the 1st choice of information for everyone interested about the game and company.
But then again, you obviously don't understand it because you're too busy on getting all butthurt and defensive about shit you don't even own.
Hardly butthurt over some random internet guys opinion, sry to disappoint. My point is the website could be designed by a retarded monkey that happenstanced upon a computer. If I log into the actual game and its good , what it's wrapped in hardly matters. The words on the CU website are what matters, their meaning.
3. Game developing is important in all places. If you dont make a game to suit the market, you fail. In America for example, with it being a melting pot, the market is very very diverse, one player will have no issues with cute characters, others want realism and HATE cute, some want ugly but couldnt care either way so it can be extremely hard to make a game to target a large portion of the consumer base...in Asia, ugly player character games rarely do well unless they offer some beautiful ones as well, and the ugly ones dont get played.
Gotta love our melting pot culture. It's why our entertainment (movies, tv shows, games, etc.) transcend borders whereas all other countries struggle to appeal outside of their own borders.
Asian games vs western is a silly debate. Just like if you prefer a cheeseburger over sushi.
A korean game is in my top 3 MMORPGs of all time
1. Everquest 2. DAOC 3. Aion
The argument started as mr anonymous saying that EvE was only a minor success because MMORPGs make a killing in the east.
And the main point of the argument is that its stupid to compare because the demographics are so different. pay to win works there, and doesnt here. Thats a rather large difference that cant be ignored, neither can the cultural differences.
Im sure the top 10 games from the 35+ demographic (which is a huge demogrpahic in the west) are all western games. However people over the age of 30 generally dont play MMOs in the east.
Well if you think about it in a certain way Everquest and all the other games published by SOE are published by a Japanese Company (Sony the parent) so does that make them Western or Asian?
As to the 35+ demographic (of which I am a part) on what basis do you say it is huge? Please do not quote that general gaming suvey that only broke down gamers by age for the whole categorey of games and not specificaly MMORPG players.
The game is Western or Asian by who did the programming, designing etc...publishers just distribute the finished product and maintain it. Unfortunately sometimes publishers also put their untalented two cents into the product and make it worse.
3. Game developing is important in all places. If you dont make a game to suit the market, you fail. In America for example, with it being a melting pot, the market is very very diverse, one player will have no issues with cute characters, others want realism and HATE cute, some want ugly but couldnt care either way so it can be extremely hard to make a game to target a large portion of the consumer base...in Asia, ugly player character games rarely do well unless they offer some beautiful ones as well, and the ugly ones dont get played.
Gotta love our melting pot culture. It's why our entertainment (movies, tv shows, games, etc.) transcend borders whereas all other countries struggle to appeal outside of their own borders.
Yep but just remember this little tidbit though, South Korea has been HEAVILY influenced by American Culture for the last 50 years as can be seen in K-pop, their movies, TV shows and even much of their MMOs. Lineage 2 actually had a heavy mideval flair to it and the upcoming ArcheAge and Black Desert look Western made.
The stuff I spoke about, the cute characters is actually due to many Asians believing they are NOT good looking and want an avatar that is...the FFE PvP is from their view of life needing to be a struggle, because it makes you stronger.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Asian games vs western is a silly debate. Just like if you prefer a cheeseburger over sushi.
A korean game is in my top 3 MMORPGs of all time
1. Everquest 2. DAOC 3. Aion
The argument started as mr anonymous saying that EvE was only a minor success because MMORPGs make a killing in the east.
And the main point of the argument is that its stupid to compare because the demographics are so different. pay to win works there, and doesnt here. Thats a rather large difference that cant be ignored, neither can the cultural differences.
Im sure the top 10 games from the 35+ demographic (which is a huge demogrpahic in the west) are all western games. However people over the age of 30 generally dont play MMOs in the east.
Well if you think about it in a certain way Everquest and all the other games published by SOE are published by a Japanese Company (Sony the parent) so does that make them Western or Asian?
As to the 35+ demographic (of which I am a part) on what basis do you say it is huge? Please do not quote that general gaming suvey that only broke down gamers by age for the whole categorey of games and not specificaly MMORPG players.
The game is Western or Asian by who did the programming, designing etc...publishers just distribute the finished product and maintain it. Unfortunately sometimes publishers also put their untalented two cents into the product and make it worse.
1. SoE is American
2. They generally don't even publish their games in the east
And I think the main differentiation is who the target audience is. EQ, DAoC, Rift, even WoW: all targeted to the west. WoW's eastern success is kind of an anamoly. Its one of two games with crossover success, the other being FFXI (on a much smaller scale) which s more due to the IP than anything.
3. Game developing is important in all places. If you dont make a game to suit the market, you fail. In America for example, with it being a melting pot, the market is very very diverse, one player will have no issues with cute characters, others want realism and HATE cute, some want ugly but couldnt care either way so it can be extremely hard to make a game to target a large portion of the consumer base...in Asia, ugly player character games rarely do well unless they offer some beautiful ones as well, and the ugly ones dont get played.
Gotta love our melting pot culture. It's why our entertainment (movies, tv shows, games, etc.) transcend borders whereas all other countries struggle to appeal outside of their own borders.
Yep but just remember this little tidbit though, South Korea has been HEAVILY influenced by American Culture for the last 50 years as can be seen in K-pop, their movies, TV shows and even much of their MMOs. Lineage 2 actually had a heavy mideval flair to it and the upcoming ArcheAge and Black Desert look Western made.
The stuff I spoke about, the cute characters is actually due to many Asians believing they are NOT good looking and want an avatar that is...the FFE PvP is from their view of life needing to be a struggle, because it makes you stronger.
You have no idea of realm pride you are speaking of here since apparently you have never been in a realm that could actually be attacked and you successfully defended it...DaoC had false realm pride because the fighting was all taking place in set places OUTSIDE the realm in controlled enviorments created to MAKE you want to go there. Realm pride, actual REALM pride comes from victory, from the want of protecting JUST TO PROTECT and not for a carrot, for being BETTER, defeating the ENEMEY...this bogus idea of having to have races different in each faction has nothing to do with PRIDE, it has to do with making sure dumb gamers dont get all confused...and the rest of what you said smacks more of racism than pride...and your ending smacks of not knowing the industry, longevity has nothing to do with it as The Realm, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, Asherons Call and Anarchy Online are OLDER and all still running and dont have those limitations. Points negated.
And NO, open world PvP does not = FFA. FFA = FFA. Open world PvP means PvP can take place ANYWHERE in the world and yes, you CAN have factions and open world PvP as many games have already shown including some of the older ones listed above.The only reasons that remain to keep faction areas closed is the inability to program a game that can handle the load of an open world (open world means NO LOADING ZONES) and action taking place all over it.
I am speaking of realm pride through team spirit and the feeling of being part of something greater. This is something else than the pride after an actual victory. From your perspective I understand that you feel that daoc has false realm pride, since it is no true victory or loss if you win or loose in a separated zone.
I don't know if you played daoc in those days, but for me there was definitly a strong feeling of being part of a nation which was in war with other nations, I do believe that this feeling was amplified by having distinct pve zones, distinct lore and distinct pvp zones, which you can consider as home front. Yes you can even call me a racist in daoc, since there were races and i liked the humans more than other races. In RL, since we are all one race, I would consider racist as a very bad insult.
But I am sure, the least you want to do is insulting me, since this is below your level.
MMO's played so far: UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen
I am speaking of realm pride through team spirit and the feeling of being part of something greater. This is something else than the pride after an actual victory. From your perspective I understand that you feel that daoc has false realm pride, since it is no true victory or loss if you win or loose in a separated zone.
I don't know if you played daoc in those days, but for me there was definitly a strong feeling of being part of a nation which was in war with other nations, I do believe that this feeling was amplified by having distinct pve zones, distinct lore and distinct pvp zones, which you can consider as home front. Yes you can even call me a racist in daoc, since there were races and i liked the humans more than other races. In RL, since we are all one race, I would consider racist as a very bad insult.
But I am sure, the least you want to do is insulting me, since this is below your level.
Your starting sentence proved my point.
The part of being something greater was given to you, it wasnt earned. There was nothing to gain or lose, winning gave your side nothing, losing took nothing away. If your side kept losing, it didnt get someone that did not want to take part in the fight to suddenly step up and fight for the cause which he would with REAL PRIDE...because this cause, is to fight in this magical place between everyone, and we all want it...even though having it really doesnt mean anything other than having it, and it really isnt yours when you do. A game that gives pride in a cause, doesnt have to try to force it on you, it allows it to be earned.
I dont know if you played OTHER PvP games in ANY days, but for me there is only a sense of feeling being part of a nation at WAR with other nations when that WAR is an actual WAR where there is a threat of attack at home. I do believe the feeling is amplified by having no distinctions like, oh...real life...where you can not only be attacked, distinct lore can still be there between factions when the game maker isnt so small minded that he locked himself into a REALLY TINY LITTLE BOX.
I mean, the very idea that a faction can only have distinct lore if they are locked away in their own corner of the world is...laughable seeing as how MANY MMOS there are that have open world factions with their own lore(not to mention in REAL LIFE where every nation has their own history and you can WALK right into their country). As for the insult, I didnt call YOU a racist, I said the idea you put forth to defend the game were ideas based on racism, not pride. You basically said that part of the games pride was the factions racial differences. Its a very limiting "pride" they setup when you look at other games that allowed open race in open factions where people had pride in their faction, because it was their faction, leaving out seperation of races or locked areas. Its already been done, proved to be possible, to argue you need them closed off is nuts.
So again, I call it fake pride because there are games without those massive limitations that had pride, since the pride was there without those game limitations the way this game maker says it has pride BECAUSE of those limitations...I call it fake, because its forced.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I am speaking of realm pride through team spirit and the feeling of being part of something greater. This is something else than the pride after an actual victory. From your perspective I understand that you feel that daoc has false realm pride, since it is no true victory or loss if you win or loose in a separated zone.
I don't know if you played daoc in those days, but for me there was definitly a strong feeling of being part of a nation which was in war with other nations, I do believe that this feeling was amplified by having distinct pve zones, distinct lore and distinct pvp zones, which you can consider as home front. Yes you can even call me a racist in daoc, since there were races and i liked the humans more than other races. In RL, since we are all one race, I would consider racist as a very bad insult.
But I am sure, the least you want to do is insulting me, since this is below your level.
Your starting sentence proved my point.
The part of being something greater was given to you, it wasnt earned. There was nothing to gain or lose, winning gave your side nothing, losing took nothing away. If your side kept losing, it didnt get someone that did not want to take part in the fight to suddenly step up and fight for the cause which he would with REAL PRIDE...because this cause, is to fight in this magical place between everyone, and we all want it...even though having it really doesnt mean anything other than having it, and it really isnt yours when you do. A game that gives pride in a cause, doesnt have to try to force it on you, it allows it to be earned.
I dont know if you played OTHER PvP games in ANY days, but for me there is only a sense of feeling being part of a nation at WAR with other nations when that WAR is an actual WAR where there is a threat of attack at home. I do believe the feeling is amplified by having no distinctions like, oh...real life...where you can not only be attacked, distinct lore can still be there between factions when the game maker isnt so small minded that he locked himself into a REALLY TINY LITTLE BOX.
I mean, the very idea that a faction can only have distinct lore if they are locked away in their own corner of the world is...laughable seeing as how MANY MMOS there are that have open world factions with their own lore(not to mention in REAL LIFE where every nation has their own history and you can WALK right into their country). As for the insult, I didnt call YOU a racist, I said the idea you put forth to defend the game were ideas based on racism, not pride. You basically said that part of the games pride was the factions racial differences. Its a very limiting "pride" they setup when you look at other games that allowed open race in open factions where people had pride in their faction, because it was their faction, leaving out seperation of races or locked areas. Its already been done, proved to be possible, to argue you need them closed off is nuts.
So again, I call it fake pride because there are games without those massive limitations that had pride, since the pride was there without those game limitations the way this game maker says it has pride BECAUSE of those limitations...I call it fake, because its forced.
You prefer a WoW type sytem, I prefer a DAoC type system. CU and TESO is for me and not for you. Simple as that. Don't tell others what "real pride" is that makes no sense. People had real "pride" of their realm in DAoC and I am sure they did with WAR. It doesn't matter if you were restricted, it just felt like you were living in a different country.
Enemy states that don't let people across, like you know, real life.
You prefer a WoW type sytem, I prefer a DAoC type system. CU and TESO is for me and not for you. Simple as that. Don't tell others what "real pride" is that makes no sense. People had real "pride" of their realm in DAoC and I am sure they did with WAR. It doesn't matter if you were restricted, it just felt like you were living in a different country.
Enemy states that don't let people across, like you know, real life.
I, for one, definitely prefer the DAoC type system. The community in WoW was always pretty horrible. And Blizzard just didn't give a damn as long as the Benjamins kept rolling in.
I remember a time when open world pvp was hoppin' around that one undead town (forget the name of it). People seemed to love it. Then what does Blizzard do? They absolutely KILL IT by opening up these dumbed down BG pvp instances with huge rewards (little effort). It was almost like digging a couple of huge ditches and allowing the water (the players) to flow down into it. Ever since then, WoW held no appeal for me.
Originally posted by Father_JackIt's not a donation. It's not a gift. A gift or donation means you expect nothing in return. When you fund a kickstarter you do expect something in return. You give them money and you get something back. Not financial not equity I never said you get money back, you get something non-monetary that you want.
No legal or accounting system care about YOUR expectations.
Investment means putting money into something with prospect of gain - either monetary or in form of assets generating gain in the future.
There is no gain or profit for you to make when you throw money on KS. None.
In fact, you are not recieving anything for KS money you donated. When company receive money from KS funding, it will be listed as donation in their accounting books because there is no return consideration. Company is not obliged to give you anything from money they received but if/when they do, the rewards for pledging will be listed as promotional merchandise or simply gifts.
You prefer a WoW type sytem, I prefer a DAoC type system.
Enemy states that don't let people across, like you know, real life.
The fact that you said WoW speaks volumns about your limited MMO experience...and that you used enemy states not allowing people to cross their border speaks volumns of what you know about war...you know, the thing that has armies invading their enemies lands.
Like you know, real life, where warring factions dont have invisible walls protecting their lands and they all fight in neverland.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
It's not a donation. It's not a gift. A gift or donation means you expect nothing in return. When you fund a kickstarter you do expect something in return. You give them money and you get something back. Not financial not equity I never said you get money back, you get something non-monetary that you want.
No legal or accounting system care about YOUR expectations.
Investment means putting money into something with prospect of gain - either monetary or in form of assets generating gain in the future.
There is no gain or profit for you to make when you throw money on KS. None. Therefore you donate money.
Look if you and others have an axe to grind with CU or MJ, and you want to hate on them ,I don't really care. I'm not defending them, but you are attacking KSer and spreading a bunch of misinformationa and that is wrong. It's like you are not even reading my posts or you have serious reading comprehension issues. It also seems like you still haven't even bothered to check out the site. I've beeninvolved with dozens of KSers on both sides and I'm telling you have it wrong.
Donate, verb, 1. to make a gift, esp. a sum of money.
Gift, noun 1. Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.
So from the definition of the words a donation is something that is freely given with no expectation of compensation. If you give someone something and you expect something in return that is not a donation. It's crystal clear. It doesn't matter what the reciever of the donation thinks or does. Donate is a verb it is the action of the subject , the subject is the person donating they are taking the action so what thier intent is is reflected int he verb it doesn't matter what the reciever thinks of the situation.
You are toally WRONG there is gain to be made when funding a KS you get something in return if its successful. I've told you that half a dozen times. I've recieved stufff from KS I've backed and given stuff to people from KS I have helped launch. What you are saying is just totally false. Some KSrs don't end up fulfilling thier part of the deal I'm sure, but this is such a small percentage, it is the exception not the rule. But there is risk in any investment. Go out and buy some stocks if the stocks tank and the buisness goes bankrupt, does your investment suddenly retroactively become a donation? Do you have any legal recourse? No.
Invest Verb 1. Expend money with the expectation of achieving a profit or material result by putting it into financial schemes.
You give money to KS project with the expectation of a receiving something in return. That is the whole point of KSer.You are motivated by self intereast you want something they are offering. You are again the subject you are taking the action, it is what is in your mind that is important. This is how language works. If for what ever reason you don't recieve anything back then the person you gave money to broke the contract, it doesn't change what you intended with the money. Your lack of legal recourse after the action has been done doesn't matter. You can't go back in time and change the intent of your action.
The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.
No real point in talking about it anymore Father_Jack. The word donation has a broader meaning now thanks to the laws of most countires giving tax write-offs based on donations and so many charities giving out "gifts" or "privileges" to donators, even when not asked.
I almost wish some would stop...nothing like continually getting beads, drawings, shirts and other things in the mail for donating to the native american foundation...its like, damn, use that money for them not me!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
No real point in talking about it anymore Father_Jack. The word donation has a broader meaning now thanks to the laws of most countires giving tax write-offs based on donations and so many charities giving out "gifts" or "privileges" to donators, even when not asked.
I almost wish some would stop...nothing like continually getting beads, drawings, shirts and other things in the mail for donating to the native american foundation...its like, damn, use that money for them not me!
And this is MUCH closer to how kickstarter works.
The pledge tier rewards are gifts for your contribution. Infact, the word 'pledge' is freequently used, and that is exactly what kickstarter is: a pledge drive
The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.
People give millions in blood and treasure to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.
I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter.
You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.
The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.
People give millions in blood and treasure to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.
I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter.
You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.
Except that the ToS isnt a guarantee. If the money is spent, the money is spent. It sounds good, but in practice getting your money back will be difficult (impossible if the creator bankrupts).
You dont 'expect'. You hope. If you expect something from a MMORPG kickstarter, you are a fool. MMORPGs have a very high failure rate.
How many kickstarter funded MMORPGs have launched?
No real point in talking about it anymore Father_Jack. The word donation has a broader meaning now thanks to the laws of most countires giving tax write-offs based on donations and so many charities giving out "gifts" or "privileges" to donators, even when not asked.
I almost wish some would stop...nothing like continually getting beads, drawings, shirts and other things in the mail for donating to the native american foundation...its like, damn, use that money for them not me!
And this is MUCH closer to how kickstarter works.
The pledge tier rewards are gifts for your contribution. Infact, the word 'pledge' is freequently used, and that is exactly what kickstarter is: a pledge drive
That is not how it works. The reason they call it a pledge, isyou pledge to give that money if it reaches its funding goal. If it doesn't reach its goal you give nothing. It's so people understand they give no money until it reaches it's goal, but they pledge to give it if it does. It's not a pledge drive.
Originally posted by Father_JackThe biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.
People give millions in blood and treasure to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.
I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter. You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project? Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.
Except that the ToS isnt a guarantee. If the money is spent, the money is spent. It sounds good, but in practice getting your money back will be difficult (impossible if the creator bankrupts).You dont 'expect'. You hope. If you expect something from a MMORPG kickstarter, you are a fool. MMORPGs have a very high failure rate.How many kickstarter funded MMORPGs have launched?
Of course it's not a guarantee there are no guarantees in life about anything. Go try and invest in the stock market and ask about their guarantee program.
It's up to each person to decide if they think the risk is worth it for them. You're right a $2mill MMO KS is probably more risky than a a $5k comis KS. But it is up to each person to decide what they want to do with their money.
But that is no reason for people in this thread to say KS is a scam, or that its free money people don't have to deliver on or aren't legal responsible for. Those things are just not true.
The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.
People give millions in blood and treasure to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.
I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter.
You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.
You have not a clue what you're talking about. This has nothing whatsoever to do with CU. Go back read the definition of the word donation. Use the entire definition. Don't just pick out individual words and ignore the rest.
You were wrong, you said they have no legal obligation but they do. You are wrong about everything.
We "all" are not trolling, you are just the lost soul that is being wrong here.
If there is a troll, it's you.
If you want to refute the facts I've shown you, by all means do. But just stating the same thing over and over again with no evidence doesn't make you right. You can say the sun goes around the earth and find 3 people to agree with you. Doesn't make it true.
Comments
For starters, there is this:
http://www.gamespy.com/dor/articles/963943/gamespy-infographic-1-title/images/gamespy-infographic-1-title-20090318025509629.html?page=mediaFull
There are multiple studies done by Nick Yee, the recent ones seem to be offline now. But his findings were the average age of a US WoW player is 33 (I think China was somewhere around 23). Was a definitel bell curve (much like the EQ2 link).
Im sure some games skew younger (TERA, for instance) and some skew older (EQ1), but its fairly safe to assume the average age of an MMORPG player is somewhere in the early 30s Which would make the 35+ crowd a fairly significant portion. Not a majority, but at least a 3rd.
Yee's study showed their were a higher percentage of 50+ yr old US WoW players than 30+ yr old Chinese WoW players. Its a shame its offline now, it was pretty fascinating.
His studies over the years have shown the biggest demographic growth is women. Women are close to 40% of WoW players now. He also found that women tend to be collectors more than males. Which makes the whole pokemon addition to MoP (and its big success)make more sense.
Hardly butthurt over some random internet guys opinion, sry to disappoint. My point is the website could be designed by a retarded monkey that happenstanced upon a computer. If I log into the actual game and its good , what it's wrapped in hardly matters. The words on the CU website are what matters, their meaning.
Gotta love our melting pot culture. It's why our entertainment (movies, tv shows, games, etc.) transcend borders whereas all other countries struggle to appeal outside of their own borders.
The game is Western or Asian by who did the programming, designing etc...publishers just distribute the finished product and maintain it. Unfortunately sometimes publishers also put their untalented two cents into the product and make it worse.
Yep but just remember this little tidbit though, South Korea has been HEAVILY influenced by American Culture for the last 50 years as can be seen in K-pop, their movies, TV shows and even much of their MMOs. Lineage 2 actually had a heavy mideval flair to it and the upcoming ArcheAge and Black Desert look Western made.
The stuff I spoke about, the cute characters is actually due to many Asians believing they are NOT good looking and want an avatar that is...the FFE PvP is from their view of life needing to be a struggle, because it makes you stronger.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
1. SoE is American
2. They generally don't even publish their games in the east
And I think the main differentiation is who the target audience is. EQ, DAoC, Rift, even WoW: all targeted to the west. WoW's eastern success is kind of an anamoly. Its one of two games with crossover success, the other being FFXI (on a much smaller scale) which s more due to the IP than anything.
Thanks jtcgs, I find all that facinating.
I am speaking of realm pride through team spirit and the feeling of being part of something greater. This is something else than the pride after an actual victory. From your perspective I understand that you feel that daoc has false realm pride, since it is no true victory or loss if you win or loose in a separated zone.
I don't know if you played daoc in those days, but for me there was definitly a strong feeling of being part of a nation which was in war with other nations, I do believe that this feeling was amplified by having distinct pve zones, distinct lore and distinct pvp zones, which you can consider as home front. Yes you can even call me a racist in daoc, since there were races and i liked the humans more than other races. In RL, since we are all one race, I would consider racist as a very bad insult.
But I am sure, the least you want to do is insulting me, since this is below your level.
MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen
Your starting sentence proved my point.
The part of being something greater was given to you, it wasnt earned. There was nothing to gain or lose, winning gave your side nothing, losing took nothing away. If your side kept losing, it didnt get someone that did not want to take part in the fight to suddenly step up and fight for the cause which he would with REAL PRIDE...because this cause, is to fight in this magical place between everyone, and we all want it...even though having it really doesnt mean anything other than having it, and it really isnt yours when you do. A game that gives pride in a cause, doesnt have to try to force it on you, it allows it to be earned.
I dont know if you played OTHER PvP games in ANY days, but for me there is only a sense of feeling being part of a nation at WAR with other nations when that WAR is an actual WAR where there is a threat of attack at home. I do believe the feeling is amplified by having no distinctions like, oh...real life...where you can not only be attacked, distinct lore can still be there between factions when the game maker isnt so small minded that he locked himself into a REALLY TINY LITTLE BOX.
I mean, the very idea that a faction can only have distinct lore if they are locked away in their own corner of the world is...laughable seeing as how MANY MMOS there are that have open world factions with their own lore(not to mention in REAL LIFE where every nation has their own history and you can WALK right into their country). As for the insult, I didnt call YOU a racist, I said the idea you put forth to defend the game were ideas based on racism, not pride. You basically said that part of the games pride was the factions racial differences. Its a very limiting "pride" they setup when you look at other games that allowed open race in open factions where people had pride in their faction, because it was their faction, leaving out seperation of races or locked areas. Its already been done, proved to be possible, to argue you need them closed off is nuts.
So again, I call it fake pride because there are games without those massive limitations that had pride, since the pride was there without those game limitations the way this game maker says it has pride BECAUSE of those limitations...I call it fake, because its forced.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
You prefer a WoW type sytem, I prefer a DAoC type system. CU and TESO is for me and not for you. Simple as that. Don't tell others what "real pride" is that makes no sense. People had real "pride" of their realm in DAoC and I am sure they did with WAR. It doesn't matter if you were restricted, it just felt like you were living in a different country.
Enemy states that don't let people across, like you know, real life.
I, for one, definitely prefer the DAoC type system. The community in WoW was always pretty horrible. And Blizzard just didn't give a damn as long as the Benjamins kept rolling in.
I remember a time when open world pvp was hoppin' around that one undead town (forget the name of it). People seemed to love it. Then what does Blizzard do? They absolutely KILL IT by opening up these dumbed down BG pvp instances with huge rewards (little effort). It was almost like digging a couple of huge ditches and allowing the water (the players) to flow down into it. Ever since then, WoW held no appeal for me.
No legal or accounting system care about YOUR expectations.
Investment means putting money into something with prospect of gain - either monetary or in form of assets generating gain in the future.
There is no gain or profit for you to make when you throw money on KS. None.
In fact, you are not recieving anything for KS money you donated. When company receive money from KS funding, it will be listed as donation in their accounting books because there is no return consideration. Company is not obliged to give you anything from money they received but if/when they do, the rewards for pledging will be listed as promotional merchandise or simply gifts.
Therefore you donate money on KS.
The fact that you said WoW speaks volumns about your limited MMO experience...and that you used enemy states not allowing people to cross their border speaks volumns of what you know about war...you know, the thing that has armies invading their enemies lands.
Like you know, real life, where warring factions dont have invisible walls protecting their lands and they all fight in neverland.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Look if you and others have an axe to grind with CU or MJ, and you want to hate on them ,I don't really care. I'm not defending them, but you are attacking KSer and spreading a bunch of misinformationa and that is wrong. It's like you are not even reading my posts or you have serious reading comprehension issues. It also seems like you still haven't even bothered to check out the site. I've beeninvolved with dozens of KSers on both sides and I'm telling you have it wrong.
Donate, verb, 1. to make a gift, esp. a sum of money.
Gift, noun 1. Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.
So from the definition of the words a donation is something that is freely given with no expectation of compensation. If you give someone something and you expect something in return that is not a donation. It's crystal clear. It doesn't matter what the reciever of the donation thinks or does. Donate is a verb it is the action of the subject , the subject is the person donating they are taking the action so what thier intent is is reflected int he verb it doesn't matter what the reciever thinks of the situation.
You are toally WRONG there is gain to be made when funding a KS you get something in return if its successful. I've told you that half a dozen times. I've recieved stufff from KS I've backed and given stuff to people from KS I have helped launch. What you are saying is just totally false. Some KSrs don't end up fulfilling thier part of the deal I'm sure, but this is such a small percentage, it is the exception not the rule. But there is risk in any investment. Go out and buy some stocks if the stocks tank and the buisness goes bankrupt, does your investment suddenly retroactively become a donation? Do you have any legal recourse? No.
Invest Verb 1. Expend money with the expectation of achieving a profit or material result by putting it into financial schemes.
You give money to KS project with the expectation of a receiving something in return. That is the whole point of KSer.You are motivated by self intereast you want something they are offering. You are again the subject you are taking the action, it is what is in your mind that is important. This is how language works. If for what ever reason you don't recieve anything back then the person you gave money to broke the contract, it doesn't change what you intended with the money. Your lack of legal recourse after the action has been done doesn't matter. You can't go back in time and change the intent of your action.
The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.
No real point in talking about it anymore Father_Jack. The word donation has a broader meaning now thanks to the laws of most countires giving tax write-offs based on donations and so many charities giving out "gifts" or "privileges" to donators, even when not asked.
I almost wish some would stop...nothing like continually getting beads, drawings, shirts and other things in the mail for donating to the native american foundation...its like, damn, use that money for them not me!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
And this is MUCH closer to how kickstarter works.
The pledge tier rewards are gifts for your contribution. Infact, the word 'pledge' is freequently used, and that is exactly what kickstarter is: a pledge drive
I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter.
You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.
Except that the ToS isnt a guarantee. If the money is spent, the money is spent. It sounds good, but in practice getting your money back will be difficult (impossible if the creator bankrupts).
You dont 'expect'. You hope. If you expect something from a MMORPG kickstarter, you are a fool. MMORPGs have a very high failure rate.
How many kickstarter funded MMORPGs have launched?
That is not how it works. The reason they call it a pledge, isyou pledge to give that money if it reaches its funding goal. If it doesn't reach its goal you give nothing. It's so people understand they give no money until it reaches it's goal, but they pledge to give it if it does. It's not a pledge drive.
Sorry, you don't.
We "all" are not trolling, you are just the lost soul that is being wrong here.
If there is a troll, it's you.
Sorry, but i agree to Father_Jack.
However... why are you discussing about definitions. I think, everybody knows what kickstarter is.
If not, go and RTFM!
...apparently not.
Of course it's not a guarantee there are no guarantees in life about anything. Go try and invest in the stock market and ask about their guarantee program.It's up to each person to decide if they think the risk is worth it for them. You're right a $2mill MMO KS is probably more risky than a a $5k comis KS. But it is up to each person to decide what they want to do with their money.
But that is no reason for people in this thread to say KS is a scam, or that its free money people don't have to deliver on or aren't legal responsible for. Those things are just not true.
You were wrong, you said they have no legal obligation but they do. You are wrong about everything.
If you want to refute the facts I've shown you, by all means do. But just stating the same thing over and over again with no evidence doesn't make you right. You can say the sun goes around the earth and find 3 people to agree with you. Doesn't make it true.