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Help me understand this...

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  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PyrateLVThey might play a bit differently, but they are still basically the same "style".

    Yes Korn and Dark Tranquility sound/play different, but they are more the same when you compare them to the likes of Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift.

    Redguard sucking might be opinion, but its opinion of a good majority of ES fans and gaming sites. Its the lowest rated ES game. So that kinda makes it a fact.

    I agree. Zenimax is making some major aspect changes of ES to make it work and thats the problem.

    To me, its like taking Korn (ES) and changing the aspects of their style to be more like Bieber (Themepark) to get it to "work" in the industry.

    You dont see a problem with that? To you thats a good idea?

    Hmm. maybe thats why the music and gaming industry has gone the way it has.

    The public is willing to accept mediocrity

     

    Well, IMO new Korn and Bieber are the same thing. :)

     

    I've heard a fair few TES fans say that the series has been getting dumbed down with every new release.

    If your implying TES games are more challenging than themepark games I have to disagree with you.

    image
  • crasset15crasset15 TallinnPosts: 183Member

    For years, people have whined about how all new MMOs are the same-ole-same-ole.

    Then TESO comes along, and does something different, not just setting wise, but game design wise, and the same people are here complaining about it being different.

     

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Mael no I disagree

    Planetside is a mmofps
    Daoc is a mmorpg
    Dragon age is a rpg
    Left 4 dead is a fps.

    Planetside and daoc have more in common than they do with the other 2.
  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    I kinda disagree with you there azza

    I would still be interested in the game if it played like Pyrate wants. As I've said I imagined a tes mmo playing like a fantasy eve, but I think that would scare away the carebears and with the budget of TESO they can't afford to do that. So I'm glad they've gone all daoc as that was a good mmo too, and it's not copying bloody wow for a change.

    The "rvr on the cheap" ideas used by funcom and arenanet aint much good though and the no pvp at all people are living in a fantasy land.

    But a heck of a lot more other people wouldn't.

    Yea I understand you there, we all have our own notions as to what an TES MMO would look like.  Mine would be a whole continent open world with no factions and no PvP with many a thousand of dungeosn to explore with msot of them offering bosses that droped powerful loot that a solo or 2 man team could take on but seeing as I am not getting my perfect TES MMO either I will settle for the road less travelled and that being the DAoC model.  At least the PvE zones still offer most of the things I want (minus the dynamic loot system of an AC)

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Mael no I disagree

    Planetside is a mmofps
    Daoc is a mmorpg
    Dragon age is a rpg
    Left 4 dead is a fps.

    Planetside and daoc have more in common than they do with the other 2.

    I agree, SWTOR proved you can't take an RPG and slap MMO on it and have it be part of the MMO genre.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    All you guys opposed to using a daoc pvp model.

    What would you do?

    From what I gather.....

    Pyrate would want a darkfall type setup
    Jtcgs would want a swg setup
    Mael & sapphen would want a "fudged" rvr setup, akin to anarcy online and tsw
    Others want no pvp at all.


    Now can you see why zenimax picked a middle ground. You anti rvr guys couldn't agree on a pvp system.

    Where do you get that I would prefer a Darkfall style? I F'n hate DF/MO and the FFAPvP Gankfest style.

    I like Open World Exploration. I like a PvE sandbox more than PvP.

    A SWG system might be more along the lines of what I would prefer.

     

    However. Im not opposed to the 3way DAOC style. Im fine with 3 warring Factions fighting over control of a single landmass (Cyrodiil)

    What I am opposed to is locking those 3 warring Factions to Racial Nations and making it a World War with 4 segregated zones (3PvE,1PvP) instead of a Territorial War with 3 seperate Non-Racial Factions fighting over 1 (PvP) segregated zone.

     

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    No problem at all with them taking a single player game, extrapilating that out into an MMO form while staying true to the single player game and adding in possibly the best MMO feature thats been done exactly ONE other time with great success. You in turn would rather they take the game and stay true to the TES game but extrapalting that out into MMO form and making it jsut like every other MMO released in the last 8 years.  That is what I call an idiotic and surefire fail.

    TES games are open world and non linear. I don't care what PvP systems they use, remove those 2 elements and it isn't a TES game. TES games are sandbox in nature and while some might argue that they should have FFA PVP or full loot they are options. By using DAOC as a framework for the PvP they have removed the fundamentals of what makes a TES game a TES game.

    You could go either way with PvP but the open world, non linear design of TES isn't open to negotiation. THAT is where they have failed.

     

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by Teala
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Teala
    Originally posted by muffins89

    yes

    yes

    yes

    Why?

    because the games lead designers are stuck in the past and cannot come up with any new ideas. They have on rose colored glasses and actually believe the game they are basing it off of was great...so great it seems they think it will apply successfully to anything even though history proves them wrong.

    ::sigh::  Tamriel is huge, and there are lots of places a person can travel and explore, but we're going to be forbidden to explore the land becuase the developers want to recreate DAoC?   This maybe the one reason I will not even look at this game now.   Stupid.

    you'll just need to make more than one character.  think of it as 3 ES games in one.

     Or we could look at it for what it is, a game being made by designers choosing to use old outdated piss poor game design.

    Why should we settle for crap when we know full well an MMORPG can be made open world and allow us to chose the faction WE WANT TO CHOSE, WITH THE RACE WE WANT TO PLAY and be able to go where we want, when we want? Especially when they are usingan IP that IS MADE JUST LIKE THAT!

    What do you mean by old?  By that logic almost every game design choice is "old".  I think it is refershing, we don't need to see the same thing over and over and over and over again.  Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

    It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    One good thing azza.

    Daoc pve ain't that different to tes pve. Just wander off and find stuff, non instanced dungeons, very few but big quests. This is a reason I find the ac / EQ fans stuff so funny, as daoc pve was sorta in the middle of those 2. I remember when playing Morrowind thinking wow this rpg reminds me of playing daoc, although them using the same engine was probably a factor too.
  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Mael no I disagree

    Planetside is a mmofps
    Daoc is a mmorpg
    Dragon age is a rpg
    Left 4 dead is a fps.

    Planetside and daoc have more in common than they do with the other 2.

    Disagree all you want, they are industry standards for a reason.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
     Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

    It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

    There might be reasons not many tried it.

    And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    No problem at all with them taking a single player game, extrapilating that out into an MMO form while staying true to the single player game and adding in possibly the best MMO feature thats been done exactly ONE other time with great success. You in turn would rather they take the game and stay true to the TES game but extrapalting that out into MMO form and making it jsut like every other MMO released in the last 8 years.  That is what I call an idiotic and surefire fail.

    TES games are open world and non linear. I don't care what PvP systems they use, remove those 2 elements and it isn't a TES game. TES games are sandbox in nature and while some might argue that they should have FFA PVP or full loot they are options. By using DAOC as a framework for the PvP they have removed the fundamentals of what makes a TES game a TES game.

    You could go either way with PvP but the open world, non linear design of TES isn't open to negotiation. THAT is where they have failed.

     

    I disagree. TES can be whatever the hell the developers want it to be. They've deviated from the open world format before.

     

    You give the impression that a TES game can never fail if it's open world and non linear which is absurd.

    Look at SWG's for a prime example.

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Mael
    Tes isn't a sandbox unless you get heavy on making your own stuff with the construction set.

    It's a hybrid game.

    It still has quest chains, it still has content that opens up as you level (dont believe me look up daedric quests on the skyrim wiki), mobs and npcs don't steal your stuff etc.. you can't build anywhere, you can't go and kill a jarl and take over his town, you can't go setup a farm or mine, you can't clear a dungeon then decide to make it your home.

    It has most in common with ac of any mmo I've come across. - and that is a hybrid mmo

    Sure it has bugger all in common with modern quest hub grinding linear themepark, e.g. just about everything post and including wow/eq2/coh

    But it has a fair bit in common with old school open world themeparks like EQ and daoc. More than it does sandboxes like eve anyway.
  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
     Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

    It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

    There might be reasons not many tried it.

    And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

    Just because someone cant design or build a automobile from the ground up doesnt mean they dont know how to drive one or what goes in to making a great car.

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    Originally posted by muffins89
    • unsolicited PvP, and enhance replayability.(TF1)
    • Each alliance’s home area is unique, and the distinct identity of a alliances native provinces helps to foster realm pride amongst players and enhance the meta-conflict which fuels the social side of a three alliance realm war. For prolonged success of the AvA meta-game within the fan community, it is very important that

    This is golden, the most enjoyable pvp systems utilzes this.

    Why people are asking about ESO pvp seems odd. ESO's issue are combat classes/character development and possibly pve. its Pvp seems to be more on track then most... if any question it should be about the choke points and barriers fuction in pvp.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Jet
    Yeah I thought more people would be Hung up on the game having classes.

    That said a skyrim progression system where skills improve on use doesn't work.in.a mmo, witness all those afk macroers in DF and mo.

    But I thought they would have gone with an eve style setup rather than classes to be honest.
  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
     Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

    It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

    There might be reasons not many tried it.

    And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

    The reason not many tried it is because the MMO market was small back them.  WoW brought the genre more towards the mainstream yet it still stays niche.

    About the game design comment.  Calling the DAoC model "piss poor" design is baseless.  There is nothing that backs up that comment.

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
     Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

    It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

    There might be reasons not many tried it.

    And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

    Just because someone cant design or build a automobile from the ground up doesnt mean they dont know how to drive one or what goes in to making a great car.

    Some people might love a car and others might hate the same car.  So at the end of the day its all subjective.

  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Jet
    Yeah I thought more people would be Hung up on the game having classes.

    That said a skyrim progression system where skills improve on use doesn't work.in.a mmo, witness all those afk macroers in DF and mo.

    But I thought they would have gone with an eve style setup rather than classes to be honest.

     

    Could also do it similar to pre nge swg. kinda of a inbetween.  or just make mob ai super hard. hehe but yeah i don't really get whats going on here.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    About the game design comment.  Calling the DAoC model "piss poor" design is baseless.  There is nothing that backs up that comment.

    lol where did I say that?

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Mael
    I've never met a game designer who can't do some code.

    Now ones I've not met, the genius that is Jeff Hickman springs to mind :D

    put it this way, I would have way more confidence working for a designer that had some experience of coding. I've come up against non coders put in charge on non games projects and they want the moon on a stick.
  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    About the game design comment.  Calling the DAoC model "piss poor" design is baseless.  There is nothing that backs up that comment.

    lol where did I say that?

    You quoted me for calling out a  person that  said DAoC model was "piss poor" design.  Please read it again.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by immodium

     

    I disagree. TES can be whatever the hell the developers want it to be. They've deviated from the open world format before.

     

    You give the impression that a TES game can never fail if it's open world and non linear which is absurd.

    Look at SWG's for a prime example.

    It isn't about trying to guess if TESO will fail or not. No one knows.

    But I can 100% state for a fact that if the current design of TESO being neither Open world (this just means nothing resticted and FFPA PVP as a lot of stupid people seem to think)  or non-linear (if you can do any story any time and don't ahve to complete any quest to level up then that is fine but that is not the case atm from available info) is acurate then it is not a TES game in anything but name.

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
     Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

    It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

    There might be reasons not many tried it.

    And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

    You are correct.  Knowing how to program is not really needed to design a game; however, I bet 99% of those that complain about old game designs have absolutely no idea what is required in designing a game or anything else for that matter.  I'd love to see many of these nay Sayers put into a position of authority and have to make these same decisions.  It's easy to say that they would make differing decisions, but when your faced with cost, schedule, & performance parameters, the choices aren't as clear cut as the average gamer thinks.  

    image
  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    About the game design comment.  Calling the DAoC model "piss poor" design is baseless.  There is nothing that backs up that comment.

    lol where did I say that?

    You quoted me for calling out a  person that  said DAoC model was "piss poor" design.  Please read it again.

    5 pages and counting still can't see it. What post number? I will appologise if you are correct.

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