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Do we really need totall class balance?

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  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,149Member Uncommon

    It's a directly proportinal relationship: the more unblanced the classes are, the more grouping is required.

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    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon
    There is no such thing as total class balance, but the differences between classes today is so watered down there is not much between them,
  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Roxtarr This is a perfect example of where in 'theory' gamers say one thing, but in practice do another.
    Yup. Class balance is fine, as long as the unbalance lies in my favor. Otherwise, time to QQ.

    Later today: "Why do we have to have nerfs, why can't we just always have buffs?" (The Monty Haul Theory of Class Balance)



    Talk is cheap afterall.


    People can say on these forums that they dont want "balance" what they really want is "flavor".


    But the second they get destroyed in game in PvP or kicked from a dungeon because they were a certain class the issue suddenly becomes a nerd rage storm.


    But, not here of course, on the official forums. Have to keep up the pretension of "hardcore" here.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Apparently I'm "to stupid to care" because the other answers don't fit either.

    So ironic.

    Anyways, most of the time class balance is just something bads whine about.

    PvE or PvP, makes no difference.

    People are all like... "You need a DK tank MT w/ a Paly Healer or you'll never do Sarth 3D 25."

    We said, F that, realm first, Warrior MT and not a Paly healer in sight. Even when DK/Druid were the only quote "viable" hard-mode progression tanks according to bads.

    In PvP, balance is a lie.

    Hybrids ruin any chance of acheiving class balance.

    Also rock/paper/scissors is an awful design choice unless you can gaurantee all PvP is going to be equal group vs. equal group - which you can only do in something like Arena.

    Add in how OP Stealth and Healing usually are in MMOs, especially in OWPvP and even Battleground style, and PvP balance is even more of a joke than PvE balance - which PvE balance is at least partially attainable if you don't make PvE changes due to PvP imbalances (because there will always be PvP imbalance!)

    Skill based is no answer either, as skill based + PvP = short list of "viable" OP builds everyone uses, at which point you might as well just have classes and stop pretending.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Hate devs who try to balance, especially balance in a vacuum.  Its partly why I quit WoW, got tired of the nerf/buff cycle.  Look at the latest patch notes for petes sake its the same shit every patch and its obnoxious as hell.  Love games like Asheron's Call which are close to 14 years old and the skills themselves have had few nerfs or buffs because not everything is meant to be equal.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • LIOKILIOKI Igloo, ABPosts: 175Member

    Class balance is boring. It's the dynamic of the different classes strengths and weaknesses that kept groups together back in the old days. What devs need to focus on instead of balance is viability. Rift has it right with the soul system as there are different tank/dps/heal builds that are all viable and all play a little differently. I said it before and I'll say it again, the no retard left behind mentality doesn't work, GW2 proved that. 

    If your talking class balance as in obvious OP one shot skills and abilities, then yeah that needs to be dealt with. My ShadowKnight in EQ2 for example was OP pre SF and deserved a good smack with the nerf bat.

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

  • BrianshoBriansho Woodbridge, VAPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    Who doesn't like watching a priest/healer take on 4 mobs in full cloth armor and a wand?

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    There's no such thing as perfect mmo class balance.
  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,149Member Uncommon

    It goes to the heart of what kind of game are you playing. An MMORPG is an RPG, meaning you play a "role" in the world, and if everyone's roles are the same, it is boring. Much better to have different, un-balanced roles to pick to play.

    If you are playing an MMO Shooter type game, it might make sense for all the players to be roughly equivalent.

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    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by LIOKI

    Class balance is boring. It's the dynamic of the different classes strengths and weaknesses that kept groups together back in the old days. What devs need to focus on instead of balance is viability. Rift has it right with the soul system as there are different tank/dps/heal builds that are all viable and all play a little differently. I said it before and I'll say it again, the no retard left behind mentality doesn't work, GW2 proved that. 

    If your talking class balance as in obvious OP one shot skills and abilities, then yeah that needs to be dealt with. My ShadowKnight in EQ2 for example was OP pre SF and deserved a good smack with the nerf bat.

    GW2 is not the 'no retard left behind game' besides retard is an inflammatory term. GW2 just proved you don't have to have the Trinity in a game to make it fun, in my opinion.

     

    Rift's soul system is plagued by players who only want to play one way not try other ways. GW2 and Rift are proof that you can give gamers EXACTLY what they want and they still complain and whine.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Briansho
    Who doesn't like watching a priest/healer take on 4 mobs in full cloth armor and a wand?

    Hardc0 mang, hardc0. The mobs snicker at the guy chasing them in the dress, right up until the Wand of Trivial Damage comes out! "Oh Noes, iz a Wand", they sez, then raise their hands and hand over the lewt.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    I think poor devs spent ages on try to find said balance asked by some players (not always sure if it class problem or someone don't know how to play it too), each time they make change next class will be left behind etc until they destroy whole game mechanic (like with some wise updates at GW1).

    I guess we can't make class balance, accept it like it is, play class you think to be OP, be happy!

    from my other point of view dual class (GW1, RoM) or free choice of ability (Rift), let you make your own balance.

    nothing can be perfect though as it obvious: when you heal you deal like no damage etc.

    each advantage brings it's own inconvenient, so I guess let's stop dreaming about perfect balance and give devs time to do something better for game.

    sure exception can be made if game X has, for example, heavy class with great dps and good healing, I would call it Boss class, but so far I never met it.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

    play class you think to be OP, be happy!

    And if it doesn't work out, there's always a faction, server, race, class transfer ($Kaching$ for Uncle Bliz).

    Too bad skill transfers haven't made the list yet.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Briansho
    Who doesn't like watching a priest/healer take on 4 mobs in full cloth armor and a wand?

    Hardc0 mang, hardc0. The mobs snicker at the guy chasing them in the dress, right up until the Wand of Trivial Damage comes out! "Oh Noes, iz a Wand", they sez, then raise their hands and hand over the lewt.

    Ummm...

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_09-1_TXF3BQ/TJV17UCLanI/AAAAAAAAAMI/-fRCKZjYOKM/s1600/Gandalf-Glamdring.png

    Dude's like.. blowing up Orcs and Goblins and Balrogs left and right.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Briansho
    Who doesn't like watching a priest/healer take on 4 mobs in full cloth armor and a wand?

    Hardc0 mang, hardc0. The mobs snicker at the guy chasing them in the dress, right up until the Wand of Trivial Damage comes out! "Oh Noes, iz a Wand", they sez, then raise their hands and hand over the lewt.

    Ummm...

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_09-1_TXF3BQ/TJV17UCLanI/AAAAAAAAAMI/-fRCKZjYOKM/s1600/Gandalf-Glamdring.png

    Dude's like.. blowing up Orcs and Goblins and Balrogs left and right.

    Hahaha, I love it, great post. Anyone remember when they added Warlocks to DAoC, reminds me of gandalf.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Ummm...

     

    Dude's like.. blowing up Orcs and Goblins and Balrogs left and right.

    Ummmm...Dude's not a Priest. And according to his GF, that ain't exactly no wand.

    (Wizards r mad op yo.)

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Yeah, I mean armor is only useful when you get hit by something. Pro-tip - Don't get hit, don't need armor.

    And magic > metal in fantasy.

    Hence, class balance is ridiculous is MMOs because everyone can choose to be a wizard type.

    But wizards are supposed to be VERY rare and totally OP.

    In a MMO, everyone gets to the be hero so everyone gets to be OP... which means no one is really OP and everyone kind of sucks.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Yeah, I mean armor is only useful when you get hit by something. Pro-tip - Don't get hit, don't need armor.

    And magic > metal in fantasy.

    Hence, class balance is ridiculous is MMOs because everyone can choose to be a wizard type.

    But wizards are supposed to be VERY rare and totally OP.

    And in some systems, they wear plate. We just call them Pallies.

    WoW really is an odd duck, in a whole lot of ways.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member


    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Lovely_Laly play class you think to be OP, be happy!
    And if it doesn't work out, there's always a faction, server, race, class transfer ($Kaching$ for Uncle Bliz).

    Too bad skill transfers haven't made the list yet.



    LOL I meant if you don't like said class - delete char and restart.
    Beside I think you need to try them all or most (no need to do these which has no appeal at all) before pick up main class to play.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Yeah, I mean armor is only useful when you get hit by something. Pro-tip - Don't get hit, don't need armor.

    And magic > metal in fantasy.

    Hence, class balance is ridiculous is MMOs because everyone can choose to be a wizard type.

    But wizards are supposed to be VERY rare and totally OP.

    And in some systems, they wear plate. We just call them Pallies.

    WoW really is an odd duck, in a whole lot of ways.

    Well the reason it still works in D&D is that you have what, maybe 4-6 player characters in a game max?

    Reason is doesn't work in MMO is because you have hundreds/thousands/millions of players so no one gets to be special.

    Magic and magic use in MMOs is mostly ridiculous and a complete joke.

     

  • AsariashaAsariasha Somewhere inPosts: 218Member Uncommon

    In my opinion, an overall balance is quite important especially when it comes to MMORPGs featuring PvP. However, I love differentiated classes and synergies between classes. Examples:

     

    Lineage 2:

    Orc Destroyer - Bladedancer dances + Swordsinger songs + Buffs

    => Destroyer becomes a devastating lifeleeching I stomp hordes of monsters at once machine. Benefit for the other classes: Great exp and a fun time hearing a destroyer always saying: "Oh my god! I was so close to die!" 

     

    DAoC:

    DAoCs classes shared the same ability pool. Abilities were a bit tweaked for certain realms and the given ability combinations to differed. Here, the fun thing in my opinion is the realm ability system. It includes powerful timed abilities. 

    Albion groups featuring 2 Bunker of Faith (Old RA system) clerics were a freaking hard nut to crack. Your group was forced to adapt to the active realm ability.

     

    Bottomline: Powerful unbalanced abilities spice up the gameplay, as long as everyone has got a unique super ability AND as long as the ability is set to a tough timer.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Magic and magic use in MMOs is mostly ridiculous and a complete joke.

    Rember old fashioned notions of rare archwizards making a handful of magic items in their lifetime?

    (As opposed to the mass production auto assembly plants required by MMOs? Why don't we get a raid together and just go after that?)

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 581Member Uncommon

    I'd love to see a system like shadowbane, where even if there is imbalance and a certain class is powerful, because of multiple layers of subclassing, you have lots and lots of permutations to explore to develop a counter to a build that may be OP.  Granted, I still want SOME balance if one class could one-shot someone.

     

    Another point is that I really, really think they need to get rid of combat logs and the numbers.  Better to not let players number crunch.  By limiting how much people can min-max, they'll be forced to more qualitatively decided if a build is better than something else.

     

    Just my 2 cents.

  • KendaneKendane Las Cruces, NMPosts: 225Member
    Bah the third option was too tempting to pick. Anyways even for PvP games I don't think there should be balance in a way. I think in general it should be people need to work together in PvP as a team. If classes aren't balanced that means the warrior can help make up for what the caster is lacking in and vice versa. But maybe in general a rogue shouldn't be able to three shot a guy in full plate, and casters should have trouble with rogues, and so on. Then again, it might just be Rogue > Everything else lol.
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Balance is crucial for a PvP games, but if the game focuses on co-op play, then balance is somewhat less important but still very important. For example, games like Dungeons and Dragons and all its videogame incarnations don't have to be all that well balanced because they don't have PvP in them. Infact D&D is extremely poorly balanced for PvP. The best team builds would almost always make heavy use of arcane spellcasters. All but lower level group builds.

    Single-player-game-spellcasters are often outrageously overpowered. Especially in the late game. Not to mention, jedi in the Star Wars universe. Sometimes it is very hard to justify playing anything else, unless you're looking to make the game more challenging by playing with a handicap.

     

    Game balance should always be a primary focus in design, especially if the game has PvP. Without it, the builds and metagame become homogenous even if the amount of possible builds is high. Game depth is best measured in the amount of viable builds, not in the total amount of different builds (common mistake). Balancing is about making the most out of all the available builds and making the number of viable builds as high as possible.

    Good balance is essential for a deep game.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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