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Please no GCD in Camelot Unchained

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  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Common
    Originally posted by skyexile

    How will melee be handled then? by weapon swing speed or animation or something else?

    also if you make melee abilities stand you still while they animate...like aion...i will find you and DESTROY you!...it makes for terribly clunky bad melee play.

    If it is like daoc:

     

    cast speed will depend on base cast speed of the spell and the players' dex.You will be able to queue spells so you don't have to spam buttons. The spells feel really good and meaty when they land, especially pbaoe with a fully buffed luri :)

     

    melee attack speed will depend on weapon speed + the player's quickness. Again you can queue melee styles (melee skills) and combine them (for example queue an after parry skill first and a normal attack second. If you parry the after parry skill will get used, if you don't the normal one will get used). You can move around (no skills root you in daoc, the spells just get cancelled if you move).

     

    Overall it was the best/most fun combat system in any MMO I have played with an extremely high skill ceiling. I hope they just copy paste it with as few changes as possible.

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by Hokibukisa

    Originally posted by skyexile How will melee be handled then? by weapon swing speed or animation or something else? also if you make melee abilities stand you still while they animate...like aion...i will find you and DESTROY you!...it makes for terribly clunky bad melee play.
    Calm down dude, install daoc trial and all will be clear to you my son.

    lol i did ages ago...was trying to setup key binds and couldn't get it so right click makes a and d straif, so pass on that.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,923Member Uncommon

    GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place.

    It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    It isnt a GCD issue, its a lack of sequenced attacks that is.

    Anyone with a melee weapon should have chained attacks. One attack leads into another...much like in Age of Conan. Its more realistic and its smooth, can do away with GCDs as well as insta dumping...you end up with games like that because of old combat mechanics that were actually created with NON-3D games in mind, thats how OLD they are, Meridian 59, the Realm and Ultima Online HAD that kind of combat!

    If game makers would just break the...chains...of the past we could actually get MMOs that arent bogged down in incredibily old ideas and game mechanics and end up with something at least CLOSE to new.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • SyrixIISyrixII Loris, SCPosts: 43Member
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place.

    It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.

    Maybe you need to go back and read about 8 or so posts above yours...

     

    Mark Jacobs just posted and said CU will NOT have a GCD. That means we're probably getting combat very similar to DAOC. YAY!!!!!! 

     

    With that being said, I am sure they will have a spell queue that allows you to preselect what spell will start casting once the spell you currently are casting completes. That is the latency fix for not having a GCD. It also as Mark said will indicate that we will not see any instant cast spells or combat abilities.

     

    again... YAY!!!!!

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,469Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kraiden
    Originally posted by MidHealer

     

    As the title says, no GCD, pretty please :)

     

    Such abomination as GCD is maybe good for WoW and whatnot, but it will only ruin CU experience.

     

    On the similar note, please reduce the number of instant, timed abilities - this leads only to people waiting for timers to recycle, and then dumping (almost) all of the instant abilities at once at the beginning of the fight, thus often ending the fight in the first 2 seconds.

    Some instant abilities should, of course, still be implemented, but having too many of them, either as spells or as item abilities is only serving to ruin the fun of tactical fighting, what with fights being over in few seconds.

     

    i for one dont want 9 spells being cast per seconds. think about it, daoc didnt have a global cooldown but every spell had a cast time and all melee abilities had a delay timer based on the weapon speed. 

    But I agree with you on one point, there should be almost zero instant abilities in the game and the ones in the game should be about as powerful as rank 0 cantrips in D&D.

    example 5 sec cast heal would restore 90% health. 2.5 sec cast heal would restore 30% a  2 sec cast HoT resotres 60% health over 15 sec. but a cantrip insta cast hot restores 10% health over 10 seconds.

    it made me so angry when i played WoW that a mage could take you from 100% to dead and never actually STOP to cast a single spell. a game where casters didnt cast just dosent sit well with me. but having a game without global cooldowns only works for me if we use weapon delays and cast times. if you want "faster i press the button the faster i attack" then im not for that at all.

    I want my pvp to be determined by what i press WHEN, not by my twitch skills.

     I remember back in the 80s in the lab when people were experimenting with game systems.  There was this day when a guy fired off a thousand abilities in a second with some code he wrote to loop an action.   Well, needless to say, a system without a timer to limit the frequency of abilities will kill a game.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2

     I remember back in the 80s in the lab when people were experimenting with game systems.  There was this day when a guy fired off a thousand abilities in a second with some code he wrote to loop an action.   Well, needless to say, a system without a timer to limit the frequency of abilities will kill a game.

     Unless abilities are chained instead of button mashing...GCDs were created for a weak combat design.

    Isnt it time to stop making games that are nothing more than hitting button 1,2,4,5,3,1,6,2,4,5,3,1,6?

    Anyone with a G-series keyboard or the like just hit a single macro button and grabs some freakin doritos as they run in a circle with their gaming mouse and oooh, once in a while may use macros 2 -8. and that is providing the combat is even decent, otherwise its only 1 or 2 macros to faceroll everything.

    Unchain the genre...from old game design and create something thats actually NEW and DIFFERENT. Hell, even though Age of Conan actually had chained combat, another MMO doing it could still be called new because nobody else has done it since. Throw it in with other actual NEW game designs and make a UNIQUE game....a DaoC clone with a few ideas sure as hell isnt going to be new, just more of the same since its already been cloned by Warhammer...oh wait, thats right...Jacobs again. Sticking with the exact same theme because he actually hasnt changed dispite what he says in his posts. At least Koster made 3 vastly different games and that man is full of himself beyond belief, but he evolved his game designs.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member

    Do games even need cooldowns for many skills?

    I often wonder, would it not be more fun, for ht eplayer, to have all of his abilities  to not be on cooldown, but instead simply tie the skills/spells into the stamina/mana pool?

    So skills that are more powerful, cost more stamina/mana, and if you try to "spam" them, after one or two you'll be exhausted and it affects your character in terms of slower speed/movement, etc.

    A lot of action games use this kind of system. It allows for more player freedom (being able to make the choice to cast two higher costing abilities vs casting more lower cost onese, etc) but at the price of exerting yourself more. You have a layer of strategy to this because you have to make the choice, and it can backfire if you use an ability, miss and are left wide open because you ran out of stamina and can't protect yoruself as well.

    To me getting rid of cooldowns would be interesting to see in CU if done correctly, and add a new layer of depth to combat that most mmo's haven't tried.

  • VyethVyeth Fayetteville, NCPosts: 1,459Member
    Originally posted by SyrixII
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place.

    It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.

    Maybe you need to go back and read about 8 or so posts above yours...

     

    Mark Jacobs just posted and said CU will NOT have a GCD. That means we're probably getting combat very similar to DAOC. YAY!!!!!! 

     

    With that being said, I am sure they will have a spell queue that allows you to preselect what spell will start casting once the spell you currently are casting completes. That is the latency fix for not having a GCD. It also as Mark said will indicate that we will not see any instant cast spells or combat abilities.

     

    again... YAY!!!!!

    You do understand that having spell casting speeds and such IS actually a form of GCD right? He said that there will be very few insta-cast spells meaning even without a GCD you will not be spamming skills.. In Vanguard you have a GCD but also chained skills and skills that worked instantly and off of the GCD like kick that allowed you to chain any other skill from it.. I fail to see why that idea is so frowned upon as it gives a pace to combat anyway..

    You are still going to be limited on actions per minute whether by a GCD or casting timer..

    image

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by Vyeth
    Originally posted by SyrixII Originally posted by Purutzil GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place. It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.
    Maybe you need to go back and read about 8 or so posts above yours...   Mark Jacobs just posted and said CU will NOT have a GCD. That means we're probably getting combat very similar to DAOC. YAY!!!!!!    With that being said, I am sure they will have a spell queue that allows you to preselect what spell will start casting once the spell you currently are casting completes. That is the latency fix for not having a GCD. It also as Mark said will indicate that we will not see any instant cast spells or combat abilities.   again... YAY!!!!!
    You do understand that having spell casting speeds and such IS actually a form of GCD right? He said that there will be very few insta-cast spells meaning even without a GCD you will not be spamming skills.. In Vanguard you have a GCD but also chained skills and skills that worked instantly and off of the GCD like kick that allowed you to chain any other skill from it.. I fail to see why that idea is so frowned upon as it gives a pace to combat anyway..

    You are still going to be limited on actions per minute whether by a GCD or casting timer..


    yea, I'm really not seeing much of a difference.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by MarkJacobs
    Folks,   Just poking my head in while I take a break from the Lost Levels (1 more to go). Sorry about no blog post today but here's a few things to talk/argue about in regards to this thread (and then I'm vanishing again).1) No GCD for CU. It makes sense in some games but I don't want to have one in CU.2) There *might* be a very limited set of instant cast spells but please keep the words "limited" and "might" in mind as you continue your discussions. I could see some spells that could be useful in non-combat situations being insta-cast but I believe we really need to limit the insta-cast spells/abilities quite heavily in the combat portion of our RvR game. No matter what, there will not be a lot of insta-cast skills in combat, that part has already been decided on. I just want to reserve the possilibility of some insta-casts for very unique combat situations and/or out of combat spell casting.3) I also believe that we don't want a lot of players running around as fast as they can while casting spells, using abilities, etc. if we want to have a successful combat system so expect that casting & moving is not going to be a core component of the system.Okay, back to work, Boss level here I come.Mark

    Get back to work on the game and stop wasting time on here! Wait...Im about 2 years early on this one...but in 2 years I'll be a trend setter ;) Seriously here, Im very happy with what Mark is saying here.

  • SyrixIISyrixII Loris, SCPosts: 43Member
    Originally posted by Vyeth
    Originally posted by SyrixII
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place.

    It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.

    Maybe you need to go back and read about 8 or so posts above yours...

     

    Mark Jacobs just posted and said CU will NOT have a GCD. That means we're probably getting combat very similar to DAOC. YAY!!!!!! 

     

    With that being said, I am sure they will have a spell queue that allows you to preselect what spell will start casting once the spell you currently are casting completes. That is the latency fix for not having a GCD. It also as Mark said will indicate that we will not see any instant cast spells or combat abilities.

     

    again... YAY!!!!!

    You do understand that having spell casting speeds and such IS actually a form of GCD right? He said that there will be very few insta-cast spells meaning even without a GCD you will not be spamming skills.. In Vanguard you have a GCD but also chained skills and skills that worked instantly and off of the GCD like kick that allowed you to chain any other skill from it.. I fail to see why that idea is so frowned upon as it gives a pace to combat anyway..

    You are still going to be limited on actions per minute whether by a GCD or casting timer..

    Do you even finish reading the posts you reply to?

    I plainly said almost the same thing you did, yet you act as if i have no clue. Of course i realize there will probably be no instant cast spells. I said that exact same quote. And yes, it would take a moron not understand that you can't spam spells just because there isn't a GCD. Iplayed a lot of DAOC and this sounds very similar.

     

    Come on man, Quit thinking the world has lost it's mind. Some of us still have a little bit of intelligence left. I'm just uber excited about the slower more methodical playstyle that no GCD brings. I never cared for the jumping around and spamming instant spells while running into the mix of a group. I died a little bit inside when that playstyle became common.

     

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member

    oh yea were the spells in daoc qued on the server then or just the client? if its only the client, that does nothing much to help fix latency issues.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • SyrixIISyrixII Loris, SCPosts: 43Member
    Originally posted by skyexile

    oh yea were the spells in daoc qued on the server then or just the client? if its only the client, that does nothing much to help fix latency issues.

    I honestly can't answer this, but it would make little sense to queue something client side. That would make it half as useful as it should be.

  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Common
    Originally posted by skyexile

    oh yea were the spells in daoc qued on the server then or just the client? if its only the client, that does nothing much to help fix latency issues.

    It hast to be server side because they weren't affected by lag at all. I was playing with a ~300 ping (56k modem) the first few years and the queued spell always started casting immediately and not after 300 ms.

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • OutisOutis Birchwood, TNPosts: 105Member
    Originally posted by Raagnarz
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Folks,

       Just poking my head in while I take a break from the Lost Levels (1 more to go). Sorry about no blog post today but here's a few things to talk/argue about in regards to this thread (and then I'm vanishing again).

    1) No GCD for CU. It makes sense in some games but I don't want to have one in CU.

    2) There *might* be a very limited set of instant cast spells but please keep the words "limited" and "might" in mind as you continue your discussions. I could see some spells that could be useful in non-combat situations being insta-cast but I believe we really need to limit the insta-cast spells/abilities quite heavily in the combat portion of our RvR game. No matter what, there will not be a lot of insta-cast skills in combat, that part has already been decided on. I just want to reserve the possilibility of some insta-casts for very unique combat situations and/or out of combat spell casting.

    3) I also believe that we don't want a lot of players running around as fast as they can while casting spells, using abilities, etc. if we want to have a successful combat system so expect that casting & moving is not going to be a core component of the system.

    Okay, back to work, Boss level here I come.

    Mark

    I agree with all of that. I personally prefer no global cooldown but have cast times on spells. I'm not a fan of instant cast unless, like in daoc, as soon as a melee hits a caster he can no longer cast. I'm not a fan of that system either. Let a caster cast, but not move while doing so, and there is no reason to have insta casts. Melee weapon styles I wouldn't consider insta spells. They have animations associated with them as well which can work as a buffer to not make them instant. But melee styles should be quicker to fire off as melee's gotta cover ground to get to a caster.

     

    But all in all this is music to my ears. It means no more run at full skald speed and drive by aoe mez/root the first thing you see and win.

    That was the only thing i hated about playing a caster. I did not mind that I could/would die in 1-3 hits but when I was in melee range I was SOL if insta-cast was down. If it was up you were always tring to root or mezzzzzz. Same went with the bow for a scout. I hope that will not carry over to CU. I am fine with the must stand in one place for both play styles. Please just make it were i can still use abilities or have a higher rate of fizzle when using said ability if in melee range.

    image
    image
  • CyborWolfTKCyborWolfTK anywhere, AKPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by Teh_Axi

    I'd rather have combat closer too vanilla WoW then DAoC snail paced combat personally.

     Snail paced? good god have you even played the end game in daoc lately? It's anything but slow.

     

     

     

     

     

    ANd GDC is not for latency, it's so pleople won't dump 10 abilities /spells all at once. It's a way to create a flow to combat in a game.

     

  • alexisevicalexisevic Rochester, NYPosts: 41Member
    Originally posted by CyborWolfTK
    Originally posted by Teh_Axi

    I'd rather have combat closer too vanilla WoW then DAoC snail paced combat personally.

     Snail paced? good god have you even played the end game in daoc lately? It's anything but slow.

     

    I know right. Casters can kill eachother faster then people die in Call of Duty  lol.  Some people just have no idea :/

  • Teh_AxiTeh_Axi HalifaxPosts: 380Member
    Originally posted by CyborWolfTK

     Snail paced? good god have you even played the end game in daoc lately? It's anything but slow.

    Yes its a slow pace game, getting nuked by multiple players doesnt change that.

  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Toronto, ONPosts: 263Member

    I'm not a fan of the combat system in WOW, but I came from DAOC so naturally I preferred that sort of setup.

    I was a bit bothered by the setup in WAR because of that, but I got over it.

    I still think the DAOC method flows more naturally and hope a good hard look is being taken at it. You don't need a GCD to "create flow"

     

     

    Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
    Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
    Healer, Warrior, Skald

  • JithakJithak MunsterPosts: 9Member
    Originally posted by Outis
    That was the only thing i hated about playing a caster. I did not mind that I could/would die in 1-3 hits but when I was in melee range I was SOL if insta-cast was down. If it was up you were always tring to root or mezzzzzz. Same went with the bow for a scout. I hope that will not carry over to CU. I am fine with the must stand in one place for both play styles. Please just make it were i can still use abilities or have a higher rate of fizzle when using said ability if in melee range.

    The problem with that is you would have to make casting a low weaker, possibly to a point where it is not that much fun anymore because you don't feel like doing much. Or casting would be o strong that there would be no point of playing aything else.

    I'm not for a full interrupt system. Being interruptet even when attacked by a lvl1 pet  or even be interrupted when your opponent is not hitting is just stupid. But a major setback would be nice.

  • Daimonion69Daimonion69 RegensburgPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by Jithak
    Originally posted by Outis
    That was the only thing i hated about playing a caster. I did not mind that I could/would die in 1-3 hits but when I was in melee range I was SOL if insta-cast was down. If it was up you were always tring to root or mezzzzzz. Same went with the bow for a scout. I hope that will not carry over to CU. I am fine with the must stand in one place for both play styles. Please just make it were i can still use abilities or have a higher rate of fizzle when using said ability if in melee range.

    The problem with that is you would have to make casting a low weaker, possibly to a point where it is not that much fun anymore because you don't feel like doing much. Or casting would be o strong that there would be no point of playing aything else.

    I'm not for a full interrupt system. Being interruptet even when attacked by a lvl1 pet  or even be interrupted when your opponent is not hitting is just stupid. But a major setback would be nice.

    I think its like always, the balance that is important. For the melee, it would be frustrating, if he can not interrupt the caster and the caster needs a chance to get rid of a melee. The hard thing is to find the right numbers and chances for this (depends on damage output and resistances etc...).

    Imho, this is a good issue for skills in the character development. The caster trains "concentration", that represents the chance, not to get interrupted by damage. The melee has special interrupt skills like shield bash and a a "disturb" skill, that opposes "concentration". I also liked the daoc quickcast skill, as "panic button". Oh yes and please keep the endurance consuming sprint skill!

    Back on topic. CD is needed, but a GCD is only a simplyfied CD. A more distinguished CD (cast time, swing time, etc), will add more strategic depth imo. For example, you could swing at the enemy and shout at the same time.

  • MidHealerMidHealer StuttgartPosts: 15Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Folks,

       Just poking my head in while I take a break from the Lost Levels (1 more to go). Sorry about no blog post today but here's a few things to talk/argue about in regards to this thread (and then I'm vanishing again).

    1) No GCD for CU. It makes sense in some games but I don't want to have one in CU.

    2) There *might* be a very limited set of instant cast spells but please keep the words "limited" and "might" in mind as you continue your discussions. I could see some spells that could be useful in non-combat situations being insta-cast but I believe we really need to limit the insta-cast spells/abilities quite heavily in the combat portion of our RvR game. No matter what, there will not be a lot of insta-cast skills in combat, that part has already been decided on. I just want to reserve the possilibility of some insta-casts for very unique combat situations and/or out of combat spell casting.

    3) I also believe that we don't want a lot of players running around as fast as they can while casting spells, using abilities, etc. if we want to have a successful combat system so expect that casting & moving is not going to be a core component of the system.

    Okay, back to work, Boss level here I come.

    Mark

     

    Excellent image

     

    Thanks, Mark! Finally someone in the industry who actually understands the issues imageimage

     

     

    Birger, Galahad, Healer
    Midgard forever

  • Kryptonite_HiloKryptonite_Hilo Phoenix, AZPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by CyborWolfTK
    Originally posted by Teh_Axi

    I'd rather have combat closer too vanilla WoW then DAoC snail paced combat personally.

     Snail paced? good god have you even played the end game in daoc lately? It's anything but slow.

     

    Thank you, CyborWolf. I'm so glad that somebody said this... Dude, if you want vanilla WoW then stay there. Your absence in CU won't bother me any, but please don't bash on the best RvR system created. Snail paced, HA!

  • Teh_AxiTeh_Axi HalifaxPosts: 380Member
    Originally posted by Kryptonite_Hilo
    Thank you, CyborWolf. I'm so glad that somebody said this... Dude, if you want vanilla WoW then stay there. Your absence in CU won't bother me any, but please don't bash on the best RvR system created. Snail paced, HA!

     

    Yeah I'll just stay in a game that doesnt exsist, not that its even relevant as I was talking about the pacing of gameplay. I never said I want the game to be vanilla WoW or even mentioned RvR. Fact is DAoC biggest weakness has always been its combat, even if you fanboys refuse to accept it.

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