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The culling bugs are worse than you think--and unlikely to ever receive anything more than a half-ba

124

Comments

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Once again, we have the 'pro-GW2' side attacking the poster rather than the post itself.

    Phrases like 'hes guessing', minor bugs that no one really cares about, his lack of experience'.

    Also notice how most of this post is filled with 'what I observed and experienced / my opinion' while the OP is all about factual information and technical knowledge?

    So youre saying hes not guessing? Really'

    Ii asked you for proof that what he actaully talks about matters and is, you know, problem AT ALL? have you? no? no wonder

    and from his post its evident that he didnt experience THE culling much, because he obviously didnt play Wv3 much.

    He also observed, experienced and gave his opinion.

    Really bro, get a grip lol

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
     

    So youre saying hes not guessing? Really'

    Ii asked you for proof that what he actaully talks about matters and is, you know, problem AT ALL? have you? no? no wonder

    and from his post its evident that he didnt experience THE culling much, because he obviously didnt play Wv3 much.

    He also observed, experienced and gave his opinion.

    Really bro, get a grip lol

    Now it is getting into the funny but sad territory.

    Yep, keep on attacking the poster in a technically slanted thread, I'm sure you'll convince anyone that can understand what the OP is saying.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,828Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by mikahr
     

    So youre saying hes not guessing? Really'

    Ii asked you for proof that what he actaully talks about matters and is, you know, problem AT ALL? have you? no? no wonder

    and from his post its evident that he didnt experience THE culling much, because he obviously didnt play Wv3 much.

    He also observed, experienced and gave his opinion.

    Really bro, get a grip lol

    Now it is getting into the funny but sad territory.

    Yep, keep on attacking the poster in a technically slanted thread, I'm sure you'll convince anyone that can understand what the OP is saying.

    A problem of the OP is that it ignore the simple fact Arenanet could just disable the culling optimizations (which would lead to other problems if by itself).

    The culling optimizations and the rendering delay are the causes of mass invisible armies, not any problems of collision detection or plane clipping. (fun how Anet word on this isn't dogma opposed to other times Anet talk)

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Now it is getting into the funny but sad territory.

    Yep, keep on attacking the poster in a technically slanted thread, I'm sure you'll convince anyone that can understand what the OP is saying.

    I dont have to convince anyone about anything since its obvius to anyone who reads OP (and the bombastic title) that he actually made a strawman.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    This thread reminds me of the Hero engine thread during the early swtor days.

    "Bludgeon your opponents with superior jargon and verbosity?"

    The nature of all graphics threads, pretty much.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
     

    I dont have to convince anyone about anything since its obvius to anyone who reads OP (and the bombastic title) that he actually made a strawman.

    Here's a question, how many times did you attack the poster rather than the actual post?

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by mikahr
     

    I dont have to convince anyone about anything since its obvius to anyone who reads OP (and the bombastic title) that he actually made a strawman.

    Here's a question, how many times did you attack the poster rather than the actual post?

    Looks to me like he pretty much can't argue against the post and it's similar in part to how people have reacted to the loot issues of the day. Someone comes up with an overview of what's happening to the community makes a logical explanation for how to fix it and suddenly the cognitive dissonance arguments come out of the woodwork, "let's argue about you personally instead of how the game really is or how to fixit" types. I get that alot as well.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by mikahr
     

    I dont have to convince anyone about anything since its obvius to anyone who reads OP (and the bombastic title) that he actually made a strawman.

    Here's a question, how many times did you attack the poster rather than the actual post?

    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Looks to me like he pretty much can't argue against the post and it's similar in part to how people have reacted to the loot issues of the day. Someone comes up with an overview of what's happening to the community makes a logical explanation for how to fix it and suddenly the cognitive dissonance arguments come out of the woodwork, "let's argue about you personally instead of how the game really is or how to fixit" types. I get that alot as well.

    Mmmm, why would anyone "attack" a strawman?

  • SonicTHISonicTHI -Posts: 149Member


    Originally posted by Quizzical

    I've seen characters vanish with <10 that were remotely nearby.  If that's caused by capping the number of characters that it will display at 50, it would have to be astonishingly bad at picking which 50.  I've even seen my own character get culled, and I'd think that would be the highest priority character to draw.

    In 6 months i ve never seen characters just vanish unless the display limit was reached.
    But once it is, yes the character culling really is that bad at choosing what data to send to clients. In WvW many guilds use(d) portals to get a whole group of people ported straight into the enemy ranks. They dont render for another ~3 seconds - enough time to decimate the opposition. Nowadays most organized groups can see this coming (since the portal is visible immediately) so its not used as much anymore.
    Also there is a very short fade in animation played when new characters are drawn which might also contribute to this.
    Finally i ve never seen my own character occluded except maybe when loading into a very busy area - client model/texture loading. So i really dont know where you got this idea of graphical culling being a part of this issue.

    As for the people "attacking" people and not opinions. Anyone that bashes another person for apparent bashing is just as bad if not worse since they contribute nothing at all to the actual topic discussion.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
     

    Mmmm, why would anyone "attack" a strawman?

    I don't know. Just look at your post history, I'm sure it'll come back to you.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    I don't know.

    Thank you.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Let me get this straight cause this is absolutely hilarious.

    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard And that's exactly how it sounds - like someone who has read about 3D computing theory but has little practical knowledge.

    is your post. Right?

    So you are saying this quote isn't 'ad hominem attacks' and it isn't a personal attack?

    I mean... wow.. the irony..

    I love that Quizzical is just dropping technical knowledge after technical knowledge to back his statements up while the other side is saying 'that's not a personal attack!' to the quoted post above.

    Dropping tecnical terms =/= dropping knowledge.

    And one (well more) big flaw with his OP:

    1. hes guessing he dosent have access to code or inner workings of GW2 and his guess is as good as anyones

    2. in fact he also doesnt talk about THE culling, but on some minor bugs that noone really cares about. Give me one complaint about "OMG being able to peek through specific shape rock formation is making me quit" In fact i can only applaud ANet for lack of "terrain issues" which is best ive encounterd so far.

    3. THE culling is not a bug, its actaully system they used, and while that system was working good with PvE it was (is) not suitable for PvP

    So yah, i would say that his lack of adressing THE culling that is actual issue people complain about is lack of experience of actually experiencing THE culling because he obviously didnt do much Wx3 where it was actually visible. In fact most people didnt even know there was (they had) culling in LA for example. They only started noticing THE culling recently where they changed some things about it.

    4. IMO, and from what i observed and experienced issue with THE culling is completely different bag of marbles that they are trying to solve and solutions well get is actually peformance related (the way they attacked the problem with fallback models first) on lower end machines (read mid min and below min spec machines) and using separate method for PvE and PvP

    Some bugs have more obvious causes than others.  Suppose that you notice that if you download a movie from Netflix while playing a game, your character sometimes warps back a bit.  If you shut down Netflix, the rubber banding stops.  Would you be able to deduce that it's an Internet lag problem caused by using too much bandwidth for something other than the game?  Or would you insist that without access to the source code, there's no way to take an educated guess at it and anyone who suggests closing Netflix while gaming is just taking a wild guess?

    A lot of the technical details that I've given on this thread are "this is how 3D graphics works", and not unique to Guild Wars 2.  Knowing that Guild Wars 2 uses DirectX 9.0c (or for that matter, OpenGL or OpenGL ES or WebGL or any other 3D graphics API) tells you a decent amount of what is going on under the hood, as APIs are set up to do things in particular ways.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Once again, we have the 'pro-GW2' side attacking the poster rather than the post itself.

    Phrases like 'hes guessing', minor bugs that no one really cares about, his lack of experience'.

    Also notice how most of this post is filled with 'what I observed and experienced / my opinion' while the OP is all about factual information and technical knowledge?

    So youre saying hes not guessing? Really'

    Ii asked you for proof that what he actaully talks about matters and is, you know, problem AT ALL? have you? no? no wonder

    and from his post its evident that he didnt experience THE culling much, because he obviously didnt play Wv3 much.

    He also observed, experienced and gave his opinion.

    Really bro, get a grip lol

    If you wanted to talk about WvW and not culling bugs, then why did you click a thread that promised to talk about culling bugs plural?  If you clicked a thread promising to talk about the NFL and 90% of the discussion was about teams other than your favorite one, would you complain that too much of the thread wasn't talking about your favorite team?

    Personally, I find graphical glitches annoying, whether flickering, drawing lines where they shouldn't be, culling things that ought to be drawn, or whatever.  The glitch in Champions Online where it would draw a very long line from your character to a particular spot in the Desert got me to turn off comic outlining and leave it off everywhere.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by mikahr
     

    I dont have to convince anyone about anything since its obvius to anyone who reads OP (and the bombastic title) that he actually made a strawman.

    Here's a question, how many times did you attack the poster rather than the actual post?

    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Looks to me like he pretty much can't argue against the post and it's similar in part to how people have reacted to the loot issues of the day. Someone comes up with an overview of what's happening to the community makes a logical explanation for how to fix it and suddenly the cognitive dissonance arguments come out of the woodwork, "let's argue about you personally instead of how the game really is or how to fixit" types. I get that alot as well.

    Mmmm, why would anyone "attack" a strawman?

    Because you get credit for a renown heart completion if you kill enough straw men.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Some bugs have more obvious causes than others.  Suppose that you notice that if you download a movie from Netflix while playing a game, your character sometimes warps back a bit.  If you shut down Netflix, the rubber banding stops.  Would you be able to deduce that it's an Internet lag problem caused by using too much bandwidth for something other than the game?  Or would you insist that without access to the source code, there's no way to take an educated guess at it and anyone who suggests closing Netflix while gaming is just taking a wild guess?

    A lot of the technical details that I've given on this thread are "this is how 3D graphics works", and not unique to Guild Wars 2.  Knowing that Guild Wars 2 uses DirectX 9.0c (or for that matter, OpenGL or OpenGL ES or WebGL or any other 3D graphics API) tells you a decent amount of what is going on under the hood, as APIs are set up to do things in particular ways.

    As you may have noticed i talk about THE culling, THE issue that 99,9% people talk about when they mention culling in GW2.

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    If you wanted to talk about WvW and not culling bugs, then why did you click a thread that promised to talk about culling bugs plural?  If you clicked a thread promising to talk about the NFL and 90% of the discussion was about teams other than your favorite one, would you complain that too much of the thread wasn't talking about your favorite team?

    Personally, I find graphical glitches annoying, whether flickering, drawing lines where they shouldn't be, culling things that ought to be drawn, or whatever.  The glitch in Champions Online where it would draw a very long line from your character to a particular spot in the Desert got me to turn off comic outlining and leave it off everywhere.

    Because i knew that with your sensationalist thread name certain bandwagoners would jump on. And i was right. You cannot make such threads without context of very hot issue in GW2 and then wonder "but i didnt really want to talk about issue 99,9% people talk about when they mention culling in GW2 but about something completely different"

    And THE culling was (is) present in the whole game, its not just matter of Wv3. Most noticable is that most people didnt notice it at all in PvE and thought culling was "thief spamming non existant skill every 3 seconds to stealth whole armies".

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,172Member Uncommon

    Culling is half the reason I stopped doing WvW. The other half would be that guesting was finally implemented. Before we used to use WvW for 1v1 dueling. Then they added the cooldown.

    I could only imagine how bad the game would be if there was object collision physics and player collision.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Some bugs have more obvious causes than others.  Suppose that you notice that if you download a movie from Netflix while playing a game, your character sometimes warps back a bit.  If you shut down Netflix, the rubber banding stops.  Would you be able to deduce that it's an Internet lag problem caused by using too much bandwidth for something other than the game?  Or would you insist that without access to the source code, there's no way to take an educated guess at it and anyone who suggests closing Netflix while gaming is just taking a wild guess?

    A lot of the technical details that I've given on this thread are "this is how 3D graphics works", and not unique to Guild Wars 2.  Knowing that Guild Wars 2 uses DirectX 9.0c (or for that matter, OpenGL or OpenGL ES or WebGL or any other 3D graphics API) tells you a decent amount of what is going on under the hood, as APIs are set up to do things in particular ways.

    As you may have noticed i talk about THE culling, THE issue that 99,9% people talk about when they mention culling in GW2.

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    If you wanted to talk about WvW and not culling bugs, then why did you click a thread that promised to talk about culling bugs plural?  If you clicked a thread promising to talk about the NFL and 90% of the discussion was about teams other than your favorite one, would you complain that too much of the thread wasn't talking about your favorite team?

    Personally, I find graphical glitches annoying, whether flickering, drawing lines where they shouldn't be, culling things that ought to be drawn, or whatever.  The glitch in Champions Online where it would draw a very long line from your character to a particular spot in the Desert got me to turn off comic outlining and leave it off everywhere.

    Because i knew that with your sensationalist thread name certain bandwagoners would jump on. And i was right. You cannot make such threads without context of very hot issue in GW2 and then wonder "but i didnt really want to talk about issue 99,9% people talk about when they mention culling in GW2 but about something completely different"

    And THE culling was (is) present in the whole game, its not just matter of Wv3. Most noticable is that most people didnt notice it at all in PvE and thought culling was "thief spamming non existant skill every 3 seconds to stealth whole armies".

    So basically, your stance is that if you and some other people want to talk about some particular topic, then no one else is allowed to start a thread about other particular topics?  This thread is what the title says it is:  a thread about culling bugs.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    So basically, your stance is that if you and some other people want to talk about some particular topic, then no one else is allowed to start a thread about other particular topics?  This thread is what the title says it is:  a thread about culling bugs.

    As you may have also noticed i didnt adress you in the post i quoted (in my first post) but usual suspect(s) that interpreted your thread as something it wasnt.

    Why would you even object that?

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    (mod edit)

    Wow just...*facepalm*

    No point to eleborate but if I must I will.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    Now that Quizzical is back on this thread, notice how the 'he is guessing / strawman' crowd is silent?

    Always look for who is attacking the poster and who is attacking the actual post.

    Course, if you are smart enough to understand that giant technical post (feels like I'm back in my Uni days hehehe) you wouldn't need convincing.

    Quizzical, do you think it is possible for ANet overhaul it for the expansion? We are suppose to get one this year so..

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    (mod edit)

    Oh I'm glad you gave me the opportunity  to do such a thing.

    Quizzical isn't wrong on the issues, in fact I don't disgree at all, though I believe the title is wrong an that another flaw is that the issues where all tied together, now I'll be honest if I haven't read all the posts in this thread I wouldn't even understand anything, but I did, Jean Luc seems to have quite a bit of knowlegde to this as well, now I don't care about the whole name calling or attacking stuff that might of been bad in itself so, now that is that, Quiz isn't wrong I actually believe he knows what he's talking about even if it sounds negative on my "precious" GW2 lol, I also think it's a major issue but some of these "gw2 fanboys." actually had a point TsaboHavoc.

    It actually makes sense if you look at everything, I mean I myself wouldn't challenge Quizzical to a "tech." off that would be like digging my own grave, but umm the way you come off he is apparenly "God" when it comes to this and there is no such person who can match his knowlegde, which is wrong in itself.

    See I'm smart enough not to be biased, I'm also smart enough to know when and when not to post, I've seen this topic since it's creation but I'm not going to argue something I have no clue of so, I decided to take notes and learn but I don't sit here and choose sides, like you in fact, you act as if only Quizzical is right, and any who oppose him are wrong, rather than using some common sense and actually reading what some of the others where talking about and seeing if it makes sense, in which it does.

    So let me guess...you are a "GW2 hater?" Welcome to a reality check.

    Enjoy life and peace.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Now that Quizzical is back on this thread, notice how the 'he is guessing / strawman' crowd is silent?

    Always look for who is attacking the poster and who is attacking the actual post.

    Course, if you are smart enough to understand that giant technical post (feels like I'm back in my Uni days hehehe) you wouldn't need convincing.

    Quizzical, do you think it is possible for ANet overhaul it for the expansion? We are suppose to get one this year so..

    Since your pointing the finger. There really isn't more to say. He actually has stated the fact that he is guessing. He feels his guess is in the very educated range. It maybe, I don't know him or his work. Even so he still can be wrong. So, why the "sky is falling" post? White Knighting him doesn't make him more crediable? What ever the case, and I don't know or understand your motives either, everyone needs a hobby I guess. You believe what he has to say great. I'm sceptical of him and ANET until there is a more definitive answer. There is time the game is still young yet in MMO years. 

     

    and Amen RizelStar

  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by RizelStar
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    (mod edit)

    Oh I'm glad you gave me the opportunity  to do such a thing.

    Quizzical isn't wrong on the issues, in fact I don't disgree at all, though I believe the title is wrong an that another flaw is that the issues where all tied together, now I'll be honest if I haven't read all the posts in this thread I wouldn't even understand anything, but I did, Jean Luc seems to have quite a bit of knowlegde to this as well, now I don't care about the whole name calling or attacking stuff that might of been bad in itself so, now that is that, Quiz isn't wrong I actually believe he knows what he's talking about even if it sounds negative on my "precious" GW2 lol, I also think it's a major issue but some of these "gw2 fanboys." actually had a point TsaboHavoc.

    It actually makes sense if you look at everything, I mean I myself wouldn't challenge Quizzical to a "tech." off that would be like digging my own grave, but umm the way you come off he is apparenly "God" when it comes to this and there is no such person who can match his knowlegde, which is wrong in itself.

    See I'm smart enough not to be biased, I'm also smart enough to know when and when not to post, I've seen this topic since it's creation but I'm not going to argue something I have no clue of so, I decided to take notes and learn but I don't sit here and choose sides, like you in fact, you act as if only Quizzical is right, and any who oppose him are wrong, rather than using some common sense and actually reading what some of the others where talking about and seeing if it makes sense, in which it does.

    So let me guess...you are a "GW2 hater?" Welcome to a reality check.

    Enjoy life and peace.

    thats what im saying, a lot of ppl are trying to dismiss his points in a biased form, he right until a non-biased argument shows up proving he is wrong, until that happens he is king in my eyes. enjoy life and peace amen.

  • nbtscannbtscan Phoenix, AZPosts: 781Member Uncommon
    I'm not sure what's to be expected from a game with no subscription base.  Things get fixed whenever the devs feel like it pretty much.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon

    Interesting post Quizz.  I think your thread title and some of the conclusions (millions to fix it) are a bit dramatic and rely on some questionable assumptions.  They do seem to present a real problem, but I don't see them as insurmountable unless they spend millions.

    Your original post didn't really include their culling engine in the problem or the conclusions.  How do you feel that factors into the entire problem.

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