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Originally posted by Kyleran
BTW, if you found yourself standing still for a minute in DAOC, you (or your groupmates) did something wrong, and should have learned how to avoid it in the future. It seems many didn't however......
This i agree with!
Originally posted by Zarkor What happens in zergs is an uncontrolable spamfest. Any other form of CC, like we are seeing today (short CC, knock-backs, ups, downs, rounds, unders, ... -.-) actually gain strength in numbers. Especially since the short duration on these forms of CC means that there is no Immunity timer.
This, omg this. More, shorter duration CC without immunity timers is so much worse than long duration AOE cc.
I do hope people realize this. You run into a zerg on zerg fight, at the end of it you will have been under the effects of CC for far less of a duration in daoc, than in WoW. In wow-age games PVP is pretty much all about CC, in daoc it is only part of the equation, still important though.
I completely agree DAoCs CC system was awesome. The specialized CC and "speed" classes made small group RvR viable even in a frontier full of zergs. (It's possible to get away, and/or keep your distance, from a zerg of you add these two things to your group.) Ofcourse the huge and completely "open" frontier landscapes was extremely important as well.
It's important to keep CC potent, but also limited to specialist classes. The recent trend in MMOs seems to be making all CCs supershort, and yet available to pretty much everyone and their dogs. It's just not working out.
I have yet to really dive into any information about this game, but I can already agree with you that CC will be important in this game in how it effects gameplay. Nameply PvP of course..
Not many games handle CC very well in the balance area and the one title that really took a serious counter to it that I played recently was SWTOR. Still had issues with CC and having the proper counter for it so that it doesn't become too faceroll..
PM before you report at least or you could just block.
Originally posted by Stiler I am not a fan of CC, in any way. To me CC, which locks your character up, where you can not defend, just takes away part of the skill and fun in combat. Games get buitl around CC, then counter abilities, thent his and that, instead of the game being buitl around combat itself it can become a huge mess of cc, interrupts, silences, all ways to take people "out" of fights, rather then giving them more tools to use during combat toa ctually fight. This is just my opinion, and I know there'll be CC in CU, I just hope it's on the lower end side and there aren't a ton of them and there are many ways to counter it. As a melee fighter in most rpgs CC's are a huge annoyance, and leads to balancing range vs melee a nightmare. I would rather that the archer/mage kill a melee fighter with good aim (IE if I'm running toward an archer and he headshoots me with perfect aim, then GREAT, I'd love that and the death would feel justified and apporaite), however to just get chain stunned, not be able to do anything about it, just sit there and watch yourself die, that's not fun, it's annoying, and it just doesn't feel good imo, for either side. Playing as a range character, I'd much rather win a fight because of my skill to hit, the combat abilities/skills I have, rather then stunning someone then dropping massive damage on them as usual.
I don't want to insult you but this sounds like "I don't want to think about anything than choping my enemy's head!".
CC and counter abilities like reducing your meele-character's CC duration in all cases provided tactic. I never experienced being "chain CCed" in Dark Age because there was a timer for about a minute. People had a inside their head for CCing that player again. It provided your brain in PvP pretty much.
Originally posted by aylwynn Originally posted by Stiler I am not a fan of CC, in any way. To me CC, which locks your character up, where you can not defend, just takes away part of the skill and fun in combat. Games get buitl around CC, then counter abilities, thent his and that, instead of the game being buitl around combat itself it can become a huge mess of cc, interrupts, silences, all ways to take people "out" of fights, rather then giving them more tools to use during combat toa ctually fight. This is just my opinion, and I know there'll be CC in CU, I just hope it's on the lower end side and there aren't a ton of them and there are many ways to counter it. As a melee fighter in most rpgs CC's are a huge annoyance, and leads to balancing range vs melee a nightmare. I would rather that the archer/mage kill a melee fighter with good aim (IE if I'm running toward an archer and he headshoots me with perfect aim, then GREAT, I'd love that and the death would feel justified and apporaite), however to just get chain stunned, not be able to do anything about it, just sit there and watch yourself die, that's not fun, it's annoying, and it just doesn't feel good imo, for either side. Playing as a range character, I'd much rather win a fight because of my skill to hit, the combat abilities/skills I have, rather then stunning someone then dropping massive damage on them as usual.
No, I understand it can add strategy and tactics, but a lot of those tactics usually revolve around cc's and such.
A lot of games (not talking about DOAC specifically here) end up being built around "cc's" in combat, breaking them, giving immunities, on long cd's usually, and a lot of them deaths arise from being stunned the entire duration of a fight in some instances of mmo's. you have to spend so much time balancing cc, giving classes abilities to break them, then combat ends up being focused a lot on cc's.
SW:TOR for instance was terrible about this.
I'd rather see combat itself less focused on cc's and interrupting cc's, and more on actual combat , in terms of dodging, blocking, specific weapon strategies for players and combat moves.
For example lets take an archer, in many mmo's the main way they try to balance archers vs melee is two fold, they giv ethe archer a type of "stun" or cc, so he can keep enemies at range and shoot them without being in threat of being hit. Then they give melee guys a type of charge or other abilities. Then they constantly balance and tweak around this, adding cc breakers, immunties,etc.
Instead, imagine if the archer had no direct hot-key cc ability, rather if his role in combat was less about hitting that hotkey to get his stun or slow off, and he actually had to aim for it? You want to slow someone as an archer? Aim for their leg, and depending if you hit them, what armour they are wearing, etc it has a % chance to slow them. A good headshot actually vital an dmajor damage, so archers are less focused on keeping range and constnatly widdling away at a "health bar" and more on actually aiming, hitting vital parts of enemies and other things. could even allow archers as part of their leveling up, to acquire skills to constract useful things, such as pavise(shields you could deploy to provide defense for you while you reload, etc) among spikes to protect from cavalry charging and other things.
As a melee user, you see an arrow coming at you? Try to be quick enough to move out of hte way, if you can't try to shield it with your shield, They could take this further by having shields actually block based on size, but at the cost of also having weight. This would add more elements to hav epeople play their characters.
For instance, a guy with a tower shield can block range attacks better, but naturally he's slower because of the size and weight of his shield, whereas a guy with a smaller shield is quicker and more nimble, but is easier to hit with ai range attack and would have to try and block a much smaller space if they can.
You talk about tactics, what would be bad about using more real world tactics? Instead of usual stuns, etc you had formations, and terrain based tactics you could employ. Such as pitch fires, traps, etc. I would LOVE to see keep sieges play out like how one might think they would, complete with pitch fires, battering rams, pits, moats, oil traps, ladder climbing, and all sorts of great tactics they used in such cases.
Severance is a game I throw around a lot for melee combat, because it had one of the best/most fun melee combat systems in a game i've played (it wasn't an mmo) but it had more depth and skill to it's combat then other melee combat systems in any game and its combat wasn't focused on cc's.
I don't want simple combat. I want in-depth combat that provides a use for a lower level player to play smart, use tactics they learn and strategy, and be able to kill someoen of a higher level based on that.
I LOVE collision detection but I assume its hell to program and creates was more lag.
I pray that the RPS design direction MJ has been talking about recently will mean that CC is on its way back, along with meaningful healing, sniping, etc. I agree wholeheartedly with the OP to the extent that CC is one of the first, best tools available to a small force to deal with the zerg. It's not the only tool, but when you give it up, you have to come up with a lot elsewhere to keep things in check, and we can see from most of the efforts since DAOC that, frankly, RVR isn't the same without consequential CC.
Moreover, personally, I just like the idea of CC being something you can choose for yourself as a role. It's a certain kind of specialization that most games either lack outright now or tend to just mash in with something else. I remember being able to be a dedicated CC bot--just as one could be a dedicated healer or tank--and if you were good at it, people knew.
I don't think casting on the move is necessarily a bad thing, but I'm also not convinced it's ever been done properly. I'm not even sure what it would look like done right; I like the idea of there being more variety in terms of class identity, but someone would have to think long and hard about what should be castable on the run, and by whom (i.e., "everything by everyone" is a horrible idea).
Peace and safety.
People who don't like being CC'd probably greatly outnumber those who need CC to be effective, but you guys should still get it.
Just use the CC we had in the first 1-5 years of DAOC before it got nerfed. I think it was done well then. Yes it was a pain for a lot of people and highly controversial, but on the other end, i want to see ZERO knockback, ZERO punting skills, ZERO shoot and fly backwards escape B.S.
So thats why I say just use the DAOC style from the olden days, because what it has evolved into like in Warhammer for example is geared toward a FPS. CC is something so old school, like in D&D books where a dragon will give dragonfear and people can't move for almost the entire fight.
Thats what we need to go back to, not this twitch type of crowd control we have nowadays. The old school CC is best imho.
I mean will everyone agree that these types of things we had in the original DAOC were great and what we long for? Most of the evolution we have seen hasn't been great. Again to the OP, yes I agree this really helps 8-mans and can help stop a zerg.
Edit: To the OP, the only thing i disagree with, is your statement of "it makes or breaks the PVP experience for a game" While yes, it will make it less fun or harder on a certain player type, this type of thing won't make hordes and hordes of people just quit the game. I agree with your post and I am on your side, but when you say make or break, you turn into one of those guys who in my other post are always saying, if this game has non-timed stealth I'm not going to play it". so its the same thing here, try to shy away from using those terms where you say, its a dealbreaker or something for the entire gaming population (you didnt use those exact words, but that is how it came off to me, sorry). But I agree its a deal breaker for Sorc & Mins type classes yes. So I'm on your side, but don't go into, how can i put it "tea party mode" where you say you won't play the game or the game will fail if XYZ isnt there. I could see if you were like a sorc, and your livelihood depended on speed and CC, then you could say, "if we don't have long term CC like old school DAOC, then this is going to greatly impact sorcerors to the point that we will be toast in RVR.
And yes, if you remove long term CC, you are going to hurt Minstrels, Sorcs, Clerics, etc to the point of making them so ineffective that removing old school CC just to satisfy the ragequit types that don't like being mezzed/CC'd isnt worth it.
maybe they could do something like a chaining CC, EG cast polymorth at one player but it chains to any enemy within 1-5m of that target....and so on...no target limit...moral of the story: dont zerg blob...
i had thought about an abilty where they could CC unlimited targets with no cooldown, but it would be too powerful when 2 small groups are fighting eachother. poly chain would have to have a longish cooldown and obviously break on any damage.
SKYeXile TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc... Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
Originally posted by Stiler Originally posted by aylwynn Originally posted by Stiler I am not a fan of CC, in any way. To me CC, which locks your character up, where you can not defend, just takes away part of the skill and fun in combat. Games get buitl around CC, then counter abilities, thent his and that, instead of the game being buitl around combat itself it can become a huge mess of cc, interrupts, silences, all ways to take people "out" of fights, rather then giving them more tools to use during combat toa ctually fight. This is just my opinion, and I know there'll be CC in CU, I just hope it's on the lower end side and there aren't a ton of them and there are many ways to counter it. As a melee fighter in most rpgs CC's are a huge annoyance, and leads to balancing range vs melee a nightmare. I would rather that the archer/mage kill a melee fighter with good aim (IE if I'm running toward an archer and he headshoots me with perfect aim, then GREAT, I'd love that and the death would feel justified and apporaite), however to just get chain stunned, not be able to do anything about it, just sit there and watch yourself die, that's not fun, it's annoying, and it just doesn't feel good imo, for either side. Playing as a range character, I'd much rather win a fight because of my skill to hit, the combat abilities/skills I have, rather then stunning someone then dropping massive damage on them as usual.
I know how your words worked out in GuildWars 2 ... Dodging, weapon switching, weapon based skills, no longduration CC. It is terrible and I always feel playing without using my brain.
Its logic that your enemy will get stunned if your character uses a "shieldbash" or the "hammer crush"-skill. Thats CC. Even crippling/snaring the enemy by slashing his knee is part of CC ...
Using "real world tactics" in an MMORPG is a bad idea. Its a game not the real world. Even in "real world combat" there are lame tactics which are unbalanced - Let's don't talk about it. Its a game with classic mages, classic healers, warriors with shields, greatswords and some rangers with a pet, daggers and bows. There is no place for absolute realism.
CC is one big part of mage classes to guarantee that they are not just about "spamming simply all damage skills". Its even not just about ganking/killing somebody while he is chainstunned. While my grouphealer gets attacked I will CC the attacking foe for sure to create some more space between my healer and the enemy to avoid damage.
Bear "replicant" Powell"I am Shaolin-Style!"
Originally posted by aylwynn
.... no longduration CC. It is terrible and I always feel playing without using my brain.
My thoughts exactly. DAoC was the only system where I actually had to use my brain. It was because it had interupts and CC. Every other game sence just came down to button mashing and luck.
Originally posted by aylwynn Actually I agree with you Zarkor. Long duration CC/Buffs/Debuffs and rupts forced you to think about your positiong, movement and target picking. By the way ... Here we meet again if you're the one from Uthgard
I agree with you guys
There is no place for CC when it comes to world pvp. that shit needs to stay in arenas when its even teams and it can be used as strategy. but out in the world CC is very stupid.
When your out in the world questing or grinding what ever it may be and multiple people decide to jump you, there is nothing worse than being cced till death. its bad enough its 3v1 or 4v1 but if you cant even control your character to try and at least get away then why even play?
people complain about being ganked all the time, well my friends this is why your crying your eyes out. your rooted, stuned, knocked down, and mezzed the entire fight. not to mention some douchebag is probably standing next to you invisible waiting to burst damage on your ass from behind while you fight a mob. These are very CHEAP mechanics, and sadly some how they have become the norm in MMOs.
best world pvp game i played was Asherons Call darktide server. NO CC, NO invisible crap. and because of it, you could fight and beat multiple people at once. i have seen good players fight and kill 5 people at once, but if there was CC involved then that would never be possible.
I think a lot of people had bad experiences with CC, or aren't thinking things through, here's my point of view on CC.
DAoC IMO has it in a sweet spot. Sure the CC CAN be long, but that's honestly your fault for not having a counter or two available. With RR's, abilities, and most importantly, friends to cure your mez, i've never been out of a fight in DAoC for longer then maybe a 9 second Zephyr (which you can't do anything, but also can't take dps).
Games like GW2 have it wrong for "open world" (open field combat).
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
CCs were put in PvP to get carebears to take part in it and was one of several ideas that dumbed down PvPing to PvE levels. The developers are still saying it today as can been seen on the TESO website, they believe thier players to be so dumb that they need races to be in closed off factions so they will know what the enemy looks like.
Tells a lot when a game maker admits publicly that their target audience are not to bright when it comes to PvP.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by Wolvards I think a lot of people had bad experiences with CC, or aren't thinking things through, here's my point of view on CC. CC is a "50 second mez" break-able by ANYTHING (a 1 dps spell breaks it, a debuff, any action taken against you breaks it). Or a 45 second root broken by a cure, or dps (but you are still able to make actions). A few to most of 9 second stun (I think anything over 10 is going a bit far, but there ARE counters). Cureable by an instant use ability, but has a re-use timer longer then the immunity (this way you can't NOT ever be stunned, but you commonly have a cure ready). This kind of CC also helps with large warfare as well. Because it hinders the zergs, but doesn't register them obsolete. Say you're running 80 people attacking stuffs. The defenders have... 60. Obviously the defenders should have the element of surprise. That's where this CC comes in. They can take the zerg from the side, and effectively hinder them just enough to give a crippling blow. Very rarely in DAoC does a first time counter work unless it was executed that spot on. Normally the defenders re-coupe and hit a 2nd time for an overwhelming effect. CC in DAoC is not so much of a "render them useless for 30 seconds", but more of a "I bought us that 10 seconds we need to get in their faces with melee so we don't get eaten up by ranged". In the actual open world fights, like an open field, CC isn't going to do much of anything. There is so much AoE's going on that if you get mez'd it will get broke. Unless you're a ninja and positioned yourself somewhere that AoE's aren't hitting you. I guess I see CC differently then most. I only consider DAoC having CROWD CONTROL, and every other game i've played having PLAYER CONTROL. Being able to keep 1 person, or any amount of people out of fights via cheap stuns and crap, is not fun. But being able to use that mez situationally and change the tide of a fight, is why I love my Bard in DAoC. Sure this new Camelot game should change up CC a bit, but saying the CC in DAoC is done wrong, or even bad, just makes me think those people haven't really experienced how the CC works in that game, but have rather heard the horror stories of RR1 people with no purge getting mez'd, and being stuck. One last thing (I know, long post), i'm not talking about DAoC pre-2007ish, i'm talking about the past 3-5 years of DAoC, where they had the counters to all this CC. I agree, early DAoC CC was stupid dumb. But they worked with it, and made it what it is now, and i'm very happy with the way it turned out. It's effective but counter-able. And to anyone who says CC in open world doesn't work, go look what the combat in GW2 is like. Cause that game has no proper CC. It's not a bad game, just a different open world fighting style, and NOTHING like DAoC.
First you have to realize is that most players left DAoC pre-2007, so what the state of the game is today is irrelevant for most. Our memories are from the time we played the game, not today.
If this game is going to attract players who are not into the hardcore/elite category, then they need to tone down CCs. Some classes had plenty of counters, and finely tuned groups could work out of situations where someone got the jump on them, but most players did not run with a specific group which was fine-tuned. As a hunter I soloed a lot, but joined sieges when Midgard was under attack, and too often I found myself mezzed, nearsighted, stunned, and with only Purge2 I had to be careful about when to use it. I did not have a group backing me with counters and heals if I got caught, and for long periods of time I had to just hide while I waited for nearsight to expire or Purge to come back up and I felt useless.
And that brings me to the big key: How does the average player feel? Like we are in a fight, or mostly stand around feeling useless?
People can say all they want about how there are counters and this and that, but for many players, perhaps even most, those are not available due to class restrictions or group composition. I am not saying that there should be no CCs in the game, but don't make them the key feature. Don't let the 8mans defeat 50 people over and over.
I liked the principles behind melee stuns, most classes had them available in some form. Granted, the 9sec shieldbash felt like easymode compared to the rear-positional spear stun, but most players worked through it. Personally I felt 9 seconds was too long for a stun and it could easily be max 5 secs; enough time to pull of one positional or two, but no more.
Caster CC was harder to balance, especially with the buffed casting times and availability. It didn't help that Midgard's primary CC class was the Pac-healer (which I also played). We had the insta-CCs, but shorter range and the other realms ability to recast quicker once immunity was over. I don't mind casters getting some CCs as well; they should get some, but it needs to be balanced in a better way. Perhaps higher chances of resisting the spells are the way to go? That way the "winning" side gets an advantage, but not total control of the field.
CSE needs to decide if they want to have RvR or 8vs8. If they go for RvR, then massive CCs available cause massive frustrations. Personally, I hope this game won't cater to only the hardcore players, but find a balance where more casual players can enjoy it too.