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Longevity. Yes or No

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  • AkerbeltzAkerbeltz Vitoria-GasteizPosts: 161Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    [mod edit]

    Fair enough,I was too literal with the definition of instance I'm afraid: Where I said "instance", put "compartment" *rolls eyes*

    Just an expansion on your comment: "WoW clone" is just a quick way of referring to a very particular way of designing mmorpgs in which WoW is the maximum exponent. As I've tried to explain, many-many of us are tired of that model, especially when is applied to well-loved IPs that has stand out because of features and systems that are opposed to the aforementioned model.

     

     

    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Akerbeltz

    As I've tried to explain, many-many of us are tired of that model, especially when is applied to well-loved IPs that have stand out because of features and systems that are opposed to the aforementioned model.

     There is no point. To some there is no "box" because that is all they have known. To others they cannot imagine what open world faction combat could be like because its so far removed from more popular crapfests like WoW. Its hard to go against the norm...and for many, it seems to be harder to speak out against the druming down of a genre with the SAME CRAP OVER AND OVER AGAIN...better to remain silent and let it all continue.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Aker
    Seen people coming from the pve angle (e.g. swg/eq types) complaining that this game is a daoc clone. Now you yourself are more probably coming from a pvp angle thinking fantasy eve or something.

    Daoc released several years before wow, and has bugger all in common with it, what with daoc being all open world and wow being a sit in cities queueing to do instanced shit glorified lobby game. How can it be both a daoc clone and a wow clone? I'm confused?
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    The main advantage if daoc / planetside pvp over wow pvp is it has the potential for emergent behaviour. Not as much as a ffa, guild and ecconomy based pvp system like eve, but a dam site more than the let's have 2 fixed teams of ten people and pretend we are playing quake by having a MATCH of capturing the flag approach.
  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by Akerbeltz

    Well, lemme see:

     

    Sorry - I read your post, went back to the top and swiftly realised you didn't 'see' anything.

    I have my vocal criticisms of the game as currently exposed to us, but I woudn't in my wildest dreams be as 'negatively creative' as you are, no matter how much I wanted to flame something.

    I always find it is better to stick to the facts, people who do that tend not to look like fools or hopeless flamers...

  • AkerbeltzAkerbeltz Vitoria-GasteizPosts: 161Member Uncommon

    Hey Shaky:

    I think one the root problems may be the oversupply of "pure casual-themepark" biased mmos of the last 10 years has made that the ones of us waiting for a more sanbox, roleplaying biased mmorpg put all the themeparks in the same sack, ignoring the details and shades that distinguish each of those themepark mmos. To put an example: Daoc and WoW might be more themepark inclined, but the are huge differences between the two, DAOC being more open and, in certain sense, more sandboxy than WoW - especially after the post-vanilla "casualization" of the latter.

     

    In essence, I think the oversupply of a certain model - casual-themepark in this case- has made that a lot of us overlook the differences among those mmos and even get to the point of overreacting at the sight of ("oh no!") another casual-themepark, much so when an IP that, in our opinion, doesn't stick well with that design is used. If there was an alternative (ala UO, SWG, AC, EVE) I'm sure we wouldn't be having these heated debates.

     

    By the way, and just to answer your question: I consider myself a hardcore roleplayer that values interaction, immersion and realism above all - in this sense, open-world and player-created-factions run PvP is a must, as is player run economy and politics. Possibly, the main reason of my discontent is that the "so called" current mmos are way too distant from the rpg tabletop mechanics - which wasn't so in the early mmorpgs, quite the opposite indeed.

     

     Now, Calibur:

     

    I concede that the tone of my post might be way too passionate, emotional and even sensationalist, but there is a big difference between this and being "negatively creative" as you put it. My analysis comes from the features announced by the devs themselves, through their promotional videos and faqs. I have taken as a reference the list of features posted in Reddit. Another thing that I've taken into consideration are the devs' silences, the expected features that they haven't announced, that are quite eloquent.

    If you don't agree, that's cool, but please, show arguments and reasons for the points you think I've failed.

    And please, let's not start calling names, right?

     

    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    From the information available thus far, the game just sounds shockingly similar to GW2.  Thus I conclude that it will have no longevity for me.  No idea if it will do well or not from a financial standpoint.
  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    how can we tell it about game we never played?

    general meaning to me for long last game:

    - game must hook you,
    - game must be fun for everyone,
    - game must be regular updated,
    - IMO game must have separated PvE/PvP and not force you to PvP (here can be problem).

    It's sure general, so hope ESO will be fast/exciting enough to hook us into. Hope PvP will not affect PvE game experience and game will not born outdated (after 6 years of dev).
    It looks great but, unfortunately, I know too many great looking / hyped games with low success.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • TheHamartiaComplexTheHamartiaComplex saratoga springs, NYPosts: 2Member

    I think (mostly hope, really) that it will indeed have legs to stand on for some time. The IP itself, and the professionalism and veteran team they have, I think will carry through and make it great.

    The question for me will be, simply, is the game fun? All of the factors that MMO's bring to the table can play into this. Charm is important in that conclusion, not just how the features work together.

    We know the game will have an amazing soundtrack, giants to kill, some real time combat elements, loads of other features that sound awesome. 

    Will it translate to fun? That much we have yet to find out.

    What are we running from?
    There's a distant sound of a melody...

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    I think 3-6 months it will be fun after that it will be like all the rest of the stuff we had over the past 3 years.  At that point it will wain just like evrything else. 

    I really don't hold out much hope for this game. 

     

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 761Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by redcapp
    From the information available thus far, the game just sounds shockingly similar to GW2.  Thus I conclude that it will have no longevity for me.  No idea if it will do well or not from a financial standpoint.

    This would be a good thing for me. I'm still playing GW2 after 6 months. Not as much as I did at launch, but I'm playing other games as well at the "same time".  Also Risens, I'm tired of Risens, but with the downscaling I don't have to fight them all the time...

    Longevity is linked to how much you can immerse yourself in a game. It define how long you will stay around. I don't play game to be competitive (in PvE), so the carrot on the stick doesn't work on me. In fact, it actually turn me off.  I feel like the game is trying to shovel me into a specific path of progression and it piss me off. This is also why GW2 is fun to me, I can return to lower level areas with my max level character and be rewarded for my actions. I don't have to do dungeons. I don't have to PvP.

    If TESO can achieve the feeling of freedom that GW2 gives me, I will be playing it for a long time. If it doesn't, it will end up where SWTOR ended up. I stopped playing after 3 months, a maxed a single character. I returned when it became F2P and didn't play for long (new characters on the other faction so content was all new). The game is too linear for me.
  • TibbzTibbz Houston, TXPosts: 619Member
    Originally posted by erictlewis

    I think 3-6 months it will be fun after that it will be like all the rest of the stuff we had over the past 3 years.  At that point it will wain just like evrything else. 

    I really don't hold out much hope for this game. 

     

    I probably agree.  The games that keep a large community "hooked" were those that take some time to level up and had a robust AA tree.  (EQ/EQ2/WoW eamples).  everything jsut seems to Blow through levels and content till you get to the "everyone can do it" end game.  

    BAH, gotta keep that carrot dangeling out there.  The games are getting worse than the we dont keep scores and everyone is a winner generation...

     

    bah

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Tibz, wow has an AA tree these days? I thought it was just levels followed by wtfpwnepix.

    Anyway I agree non gear based advancement after max level is a must like in EQ ......... AND DAOC
  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon

    I'd like it if TES could keep me playing, but from everything I've been reading. It's looking more and more like it won't.

    Phasing and instancing, the pve, no housing.....the only thing I can see for me is the RvR zone, and that even looks kinda iffy with the one mega server with instances for it. I suppose we have to wait and see.

    At worse, it's like the past few years, I buy the game, play it through the 30 days and don't subscribe, or find out it's a crappy buy to play game with cash shop and uninstall if after I feel like I've beat it with one character. One thing that will kill it for me fast though is a gear grind. I did that in WoW for years, just won't do it again. Just have to wait and see.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • TibbzTibbz Houston, TXPosts: 619Member
    Originally posted by Tayah

    I'd like it if TES could keep me playing, but from everything I've been reading. It's looking more and more like it won't.

    Phasing and instancing, the pve, no housing.....the only thing I can see for me is the RvR zone, and that even looks kinda iffy with the one mega server with instances for it. I suppose we have to wait and see.

    At worse, it's like the past few years, I buy the game, play it through the 30 days and don't subscribe, or find out it's a crappy buy to play game with cash shop and uninstall if after I feel like I've beat it with one character. One thing that will kill it for me fast though is a gear grind. I did that in WoW for years, just won't do it again. Just have to wait and see.

     

    Hmmm I may just be going off into a back in my day rant but nevertheless a gear grind, so to speak, is not a bad thing.  What I think made the “MMO” a very interactive entity was the down time and group grind.  I remember sitting around KC in old EQ1 camping a corer by the stables and pulling mobs into kill with our Monk.  50% of it was whacking away at the mob and grumping at the rouge to stop stealing agro because the clerics mana is low.  The other 50% you sit “medding” and just chit chatting with your group mates…. You then get the message from the monk “NAMED” inc and pray for that ultra rare drop.  The game was fun because you had community friend. LOL don’t even get me started on the Epic Weapons or EQ2’s original Prismatics etc.  . Now most MMOs are just chat boxes and people get annoyed if they have to group up.  

     

    I am probably a minority for wanting some of that back 

     

    image
  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    I kind of regret that when devs decide to use character levels in their game, they usually make the max level easily attainable.

    I remember back in Lineage II early chronicles, it took months or maybe even years for casual gamer to reach max level. It has always been a nice "passive reward". You can be engaged in various activities and you are still getting that "passive reward" in form of experience. The same thing worked in Diablo II (I know it is not an MMORPG, but just for illustration...) where you were grinding gear, but even if you did not get anything that day, you knew you at least made some percentage of your next level.

    Nowadays, most games just let you hit max level in a week and then let you progress in terms of gear, so that they become gear treadmill like WoW for example. Or there are games that take any kind of after level cap progression out of equation, like GW. I dont even consider these games MMORPGs anymore.

    Something tells me that in ESO, max level will also be quite easily reached as they mentioned that "after hitting max level, the game really opens up". I am quite curious how will the after level cap progression be like because for me, it is the make it or break it aspect of the game.

    Character progression is very important for me in a MMORPG. If they just let us hit max level and then grind dungs for gear and pvp in a predetermined area, I would be quite disappointed. This game does have the potential to be special. It all depends on the execution. On the other hand, there may be many people who would enjoy what I just described as negative. Considering how popular a game like GW can be...

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 761Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by coretex666

    I kind of regret that when devs decide to use character levels in their game, they usually make the max level easily attainable.

    I remember back in Lineage II early chronicles, it took months or maybe even years for casual gamer to reach max level. It has always been a nice "passive reward". You can be engaged in various activities and you are still getting that "passive reward" in form of experience. The same thing worked in Diablo II (I know it is not an MMORPG, but just for illustration...) where you were grinding gear, but even if you did not get anything that day, you knew you at least made some percentage of your next level.

    Nowadays, most games just let you hit max level in a week and then let you progress in terms of gear, so that they become gear treadmill like WoW for example. Or there are games that take any kind of after level cap progression out of equation, like GW. I dont even consider these games MMORPGs anymore.

    Something tells me that in ESO, max level will also be quite easily reached as they mentioned that "after hitting max level, the game really opens up". I am quite curious how will the after level cap progression be like because for me, it is the make it or break it aspect of the game.

    Character progression is very important for me in a MMORPG. If they just let us hit max level and then grind dungs for gear and pvp in a predetermined area, I would be quite disappointed. This game does have the potential to be special. It all depends on the execution. On the other hand, there may be many people who would enjoy what I just described as negative. Considering how popular a game like GW can be...

    If you are talking about GW1, character progression continued well pass max level. You received skill points required to buy skills each "new level" after 20 you just did not go to 21. You had to do the content to unlock skills, the best one dropping from champion boss. Or you could buy them if you have the money and skill point available. You also received character points through some of the main story quests.  Nightfalls and Eye of the North added another form of skill improvement through the titles: improving faction specific skills through completing content for them.  Also GW1 is not a MMO. GW2 is totally different though.

    As for ESO, the dev also said that max level  (50) was only 1/3 of the character progression. No explanation beyond that.

  • TibbzTibbz Houston, TXPosts: 619Member
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by coretex666

    I kind of regret that when devs decide to use character levels in their game, they usually make the max level easily attainable.

    I remember back in Lineage II early chronicles, it took months or maybe even years for casual gamer to reach max level. It has always been a nice "passive reward". You can be engaged in various activities and you are still getting that "passive reward" in form of experience. The same thing worked in Diablo II (I know it is not an MMORPG, but just for illustration...) where you were grinding gear, but even if you did not get anything that day, you knew you at least made some percentage of your next level.

    Nowadays, most games just let you hit max level in a week and then let you progress in terms of gear, so that they become gear treadmill like WoW for example. Or there are games that take any kind of after level cap progression out of equation, like GW. I dont even consider these games MMORPGs anymore.

    Something tells me that in ESO, max level will also be quite easily reached as they mentioned that "after hitting max level, the game really opens up". I am quite curious how will the after level cap progression be like because for me, it is the make it or break it aspect of the game.

    Character progression is very important for me in a MMORPG. If they just let us hit max level and then grind dungs for gear and pvp in a predetermined area, I would be quite disappointed. This game does have the potential to be special. It all depends on the execution. On the other hand, there may be many people who would enjoy what I just described as negative. Considering how popular a game like GW can be...

    If you are talking about GW1, character progression continued well pass max level. You received skill points required to buy skills each "new level" after 20 you just did not go to 21. You had to do the content to unlock skills, the best one dropping from champion boss. Or you could buy them if you have the money and skill point available. You also received character points through some of the main story quests.  Nightfalls and Eye of the North added another form of skill improvement through the titles: improving faction specific skills through completing content for them.  Also GW1 is not a MMO. GW2 is totally different though.

    As for ESO, the dev also said that max level  (50) was only 1/3 of the character progression. No explanation beyond that.

    there was "kind of" and explanation.  Pretty much said you can continue to skill up you.. well skills.  so you potentially could max out each sckill available to toy with your build or just to be anal lol.  I hope there is even more avaialbe though.  

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Aker
    Yes I find it very amusing when people go "dont copy that themepark daoc", then bang on about "copy that sandbox EQ" instead.

    Both are open world themeparks (as opposed to modern day glorified lobby games like swtor). In pve they are nigh identical, except daoc has more inclusive less elitist raiding. The other main difference is daoc equivelent of AA comes from pvp not pve.

    In many ways daoc is the most "sandboxy" themepark of the lot, with the zoned (rather than instanced) housing, the lack of any instances whatsoever (until catacombs), the emergent behaviour you get from rvr and the importance of its crafting.

    Themepark / sandbox is a sliding scale, not a binary one or the other. If you take swtor as the ultimate in themepark and eve or uo as the ultimate in sandbox, daoc would fit somewhere between EQ and a hybrid game like swg or ac1.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Azar
    They have alliance ranks which sound like renown ranks from daoc.

    They also have continuing to skill up weapons and learn new abilities after level cap (member you equip a subset from a pool)
  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon

    Longevity has become a niche.  

    Only a small number of people play the same MMO for years while everyone else jumps around when a new one is released.  It's just the way it is now.

    In order to go back to playing the same MMO for 5-8 years, they would need to stop developing more options.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Aker
    Yes I find it very amusing when people go "dont copy that themepark daoc", then bang on about "copy that sandbox EQ" instead.

    Both are open world themeparks (as opposed to modern day glorified lobby games like swtor). In pve they are nigh identical, except daoc has more inclusive less elitist raiding. The other main difference is daoc equivelent of AA comes from pvp not pve.

    In many ways daoc is the most "sandboxy" themepark of the lot, with the zoned (rather than instanced) housing, the lack of any instances whatsoever (until catacombs), the emergent behaviour you get from rvr and the importance of its crafting.

    Themepark / sandbox is a sliding scale, not a binary one or the other. If you take swtor as the ultimate in themepark and eve or uo as the ultimate in sandbox, daoc would fit somewhere between EQ and a hybrid game like swg or ac1.

    I dont agree. Sandbox vs ThemePark is an either or. You can have ThemeParks inside a sandbox but the game would still be a sandbox because of its inherent open world and player generated content.

    ThemeParks on the other hand cannot have sandboxes in them because they are linear by nature. Just like you go from ride to ride in a a real theme park, in ThemePark MMOs you go from quest hub and/or level bracketted zone to other. It is not possible to have a sandbox inside a ThemePark because the framework cannot support it.

    DAoC was a ThemePark as it was zoned with clear level brackets and you went from one bracket to the other in a linear fashion. More over it was heavily class and level based which was strongly tied to the level bracketted zone, making it virtually impossible to effectively advance your character in a higher level bracket zone.

    Finally its PvP was highly controlled and structured which against goes against the open-world sandbox PvP where the players drive it forward. You even had NPC guards patrolling the RvR zones and keeps hardplaced by the devs.

    Just because DAoC did not have some of the features of modern ThemeParks does not make it not a ThemePark. It was one of the first one's as the world was highly dev. controlled with little impact you had as a player, except flipping keeps back and forth which coincidently is exaclty what you do in modern ThemePark PvP as well.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I never said daoc wasn't a themepark.

    I said it had the most sandbox features of any themepark to date.

    Which it did.
    Non instanced housing.
    No instancing at all until very late in its life.
    No wtfpwnepix style gearing.
    Very important crafting.
    And say what you like about rvr, but its decidedly less themeparky than 10 minute matches of capture the flag in an instance.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Everquest is more themeparky than daoc too. Gear gated content, relative unimportance of crafting etc..
  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member

    I am hoping something hold me over until Archeage or EQNext...I like depth in a MMO, and unfortunatley, the newer ones have not had much of it imo.

     

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