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My Sandbox Concept

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  • coretex666coretex666 PragueMember Posts: 2,576 Rare
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by coretex666
    I know that Darkfall is a sandbox which may be somewhat close to what I describe. I personally have never forced myself to spend some more time in the game since it was just pain to play it for me. However, as people often mention, Darkfall is just a big PvP arena. I dont want the game to be just about PvP. Consequently, I am suggesting division of the land which would be guarded between the nations  and then have a common land. What level of specialization is there in Darkfall? I doubt it is anywhere near to what I have in mind. Is there the political system I described in place? I think that Darkfall in the end is just a big PvP arena. The game I tried to describe is much less about PvP. If it ressembles Darkfall, then I should make it more specific, hence longer :D  

    Three words not including these six.

     

    Age Of Wushu.

     

    Ill add this as well.

    Get yourself into the second western beta starting on the 20th December. They are allowing anyone who joins the site a ten hour beta session, after that you will need key. Ill have eight next monday and a few friends will have some we will post on the AOW section on this site.

    Two have already been claimed but the other eight ill just post in the beta thread, first come first served.

     

    AoW may be an interesting game. However, I did watch some videos and visually, it is not very attractive for me. I understand that MMOs are not so much about graphics, but the design seemed "too Asian" for me.

    I may give it a try to see if the game is so good that it will make me like it in spite of it.

  • ereyethirnereyethirn KaiapoiMember Posts: 79
    After reading through your suggestion I LOVE what you're saying about craftng, this is one thing that NO ONE  seems to get right in mmorpgs, (hoping for arche age) and I have always agreed woth what you said about the world map, however I feel realism in terms of having to eat sleep etc. ruins games, I am personally not fond of designers making games realustic for the sake of it being realistic. I just don't get the point. Although housing is really missing from mmorpgs currently. And I actually o agree with 2 fctions but they need to be warring (like you were stating) rather than being like hey I just saw a member of the horde (people understand wow referencs so they are the best to make), oh im on a pve server lets just run around killing stuff for our quests side by side despite the fact that we hate each other. Games should reward you for seeing a member of the opposite faction randomly in the wild and attacking them, as factions are meant to hate one another. This allows for a game to centre around the conflict while encouraging people to partake in pvp but not forcing them to..
  • coretex666coretex666 PragueMember Posts: 2,576 Rare
    Originally posted by Kuro1n
    Dont know if you are still around OP but there is a major flaw imo in your idea, why would anyone play the game to make planks. It might sound good when you write it but people wont enjoy logging into the game to make planks for a long period of time. Realism does not mean it's good game design and while I share some of your ideas I do not think you thought it through on a player level. Also locking players into factions will not work out well for you im quite sure because forcing players into factions is not something the sandbox community enjoys much. At least you should have a outlaw faction to let people fight anyone they want (ArcheAge style).

    The outlaw faction seems to be a good point. Maybe it would be good to give players the ability to attack players of their own faction / nation and have some sort of "penalty" for that. You may become a murderer and the players who choose to be guards (kind of like historical police :) ) would be getting experience and rewards from the city treasury for killing them.

    May be worth considering letting the players basically leave their nation and start a new one. However, it would be considered something like a rebellion and the nation would be after them, so that creating a new nation and keeping it in longer term would be very difficult.

    I will give it a thought and add it to the concept.

  • coretex666coretex666 PragueMember Posts: 2,576 Rare

    I am kind of surprised nobody likes the "must eat / drink" idea.

    Guess I should remove it :)

  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgMember Posts: 775 Uncommon

    Well seems you are still active OP, I'm currently working on a project has some of these aspects and yes locking players into something is generally quite bad.

     

    EDIT: and the eat and drink idea is something we use.

  • coretex666coretex666 PragueMember Posts: 2,576 Rare
    Originally posted by Kuro1n
    Well seems you are still active OP, I'm currently working on a project has some of these aspects and yes locking players into something is generally quite bad.   EDIT: and the eat and drink idea is something we use.

    I dont think the necessity to eat and drink has to be designed in such a way that it would annoy the players. However, the responses so far indicate that players do not like this idea.

    I was hoping it would contribute to the realism I was trying to achieve.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Northwest, INMember Posts: 5,035 Uncommon
    Originally posted by coretex666
    I am kind of surprised nobody likes the "must eat / drink" idea. Guess I should remove it :)

     

    I'm not uncomfortable with it.  As long as eating / drinking has a reason to exist in the game mechanics.

     

    After all, we stop at a crafter and repair our gear.  Why not stop at the Inn and grab a sandwich and a pint?

     

    From a conversation a long while back, a dev told me not to "punish" people for not doing something, but rather "reward" them for doing it.  Then it's their idea.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgMember Posts: 775 Uncommon
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by coretex666
    I am kind of surprised nobody likes the "must eat / drink" idea. Guess I should remove it :)

     

    I'm not uncomfortable with it.  As long as eating / drinking has a reason to exist in the game mechanics.

     

    After all, we stop at a crafter and repair our gear.  Why not stop at the Inn and grab a sandwich and a pint?

     

    From a conversation a long while back, a dev told me not to "punish" people for not doing something, but rather "reward" them for doing it.  Then it's their idea.

    Depends very much on what type of a game you are trying to make.

  • FindarielFindariel SomewhereMember Posts: 218 Uncommon

    1. Medieval light fantasy setting - lets say medieval with some basic magics
    I'm ok with this. Preferably without robots, guns and tanks. A mix of say 1000 AD and LoTR.

    2. Two nations
    As said before, 3 is better for balancing reasons.

    3. 20% of the map for one nation, 20% for the other one and 60% the common land
    Agreed with. Except divided into 3, so say 15% each.

    4. Realistic Drops
    Also agreed with. It makjes no sense for a maggot to drop a full scale armour :)

    5. Profession specialization
    I think harvesting professions wouldn't be that hard to levell - but crafting and repairing wil be. I always wondered why crafting would be done away with as an afterthought in most mmorpg's. Look at GW2: you can get master crafter within an hour and everyone is a max level crafter.

    The way to master crafter would take a very long time and you would improve in things like:
    Efficiency: craft things a) faster b) with a better chance of a better quality and b) needing less materials
    Quality: a master would be able to make some exceptional stuff an apprentice can't.
    So crafting something doesn't happen "on the fly" but will require some time. Perhaps you can be afk or even offline but I liked EVE's way of handling manufacturing. In a similar fashion, a good weapon may have to be in the forge for 2 days, a wooden sword may be made within 1 hour. A magic weapon may take days to complete and require erfforts from jewelcrafters, blacksmiths and such.

    Next to that, I don't agree with weapons that dissolve into nothingness after a while. Let's make them "broken" and let crafters be able to repair it, which will require time and some additional materials.
    It will give crafters additional work and options.

    Urbanisation: this will only work if people can't travel by waypoints and jumpgates, so you're basically proposing manual travel. Although I'd like that, it can also scare off a lot of players that don't have time to travel for 30 minutes. I know travel in EVE was a chore, although fgriffin travel in WoW was acceptable. One could also use the burden system from Elder Scrolls, so you're limited in what you can carry around.

    6. No character levels
    Not sure what to think of this. Although it could be fun if you have no idea how strong your oponent is and you can only make a rough estimate if you look at his/her gear.

    7. Realism - You have to eat, drink, sleep
    Basicallky ok with this. But again: if may scare off more casual players that don't have that much time. Although it would be fun if you haven't played for a week to find your character being starved and asking for food when you logon! :)

    8. Conflict - The nations would be in war
    No real opinion on this. I just want to emphasize that an average sandbox game often just revolves around PvP.

    9. Death penalty
    That's a major issue. The thing is that if people would have permadeath, they hardly would engage in PvP (except with low level characters). It would become a rather peaceful world where no-one would risk his/her life witout any good reason (like our daily life reality).
    If you don't want a PvP run world, you could increase DP by (as you suggested) losing all your gear, a 10% stat decrease for an hour after each death. And so on.     
     

    Not sure about the sandbox idea, really. I´d rather have it a mix of sanbox elements (making villages and such) and PvE (dungeons, open world quets) because a lot of people don't really like PvP that much. It should be possible to just be a PvE player and still have enough to do.

  • coretex666coretex666 PragueMember Posts: 2,576 Rare
    Originally posted by Findariel
    1. Medieval light fantasy setting - lets say medieval with some basic magics
    I'm ok with this. Preferably without robots, guns and tanks. A mix of say 1000 AD and LoTR.

    2. Two nations
    As said before, 3 is better for balancing reasons.

    3. 20% of the map for one nation, 20% for the other one and 60% the common land
    Agreed with. Except divided into 3, so say 15% each.

    4. Realistic Drops
    Also agreed with. It makjes no sense for a maggot to drop a full scale armour :)

    5. Profession specialization
    I think harvesting professions wouldn't be that hard to levell - but crafting and repairing wil be. I always wondered why crafting would be done away with as an afterthought in most mmorpg's. Look at GW2: you can get master crafter within an hour and everyone is a max level crafter.

    The way to master crafter would take a very long time and you would improve in things like:
    Efficiency: craft things a) faster b) with a better chance of a better quality and b) needing less materials
    Quality: a master would be able to make some exceptional stuff an apprentice can't.
    So crafting something doesn't happen "on the fly" but will require some time. Perhaps you can be afk or even offline but I liked EVE's way of handling manufacturing. In a similar fashion, a good weapon may have to be in the forge for 2 days, a wooden sword may be made within 1 hour. A magic weapon may take days to complete and require erfforts from jewelcrafters, blacksmiths and such.

    Next to that, I don't agree with weapons that dissolve into nothingness after a while. Let's make them "broken" and let crafters be able to repair it, which will require time and some additional materials.
    It will give crafters additional work and options.

    Urbanisation: this will only work if people can't travel by waypoints and jumpgates, so you're basically proposing manual travel. Although I'd like that, it can also scare off a lot of players that don't have time to travel for 30 minutes. I know travel in EVE was a chore, although fgriffin travel in WoW was acceptable. One could also use the burden system from Elder Scrolls, so you're limited in what you can carry around.

    6. No character levels
    Not sure what to think of this. Although it could be fun if you have no idea how strong your oponent is and you can only make a rough estimate if you look at his/her gear.

    7. Realism - You have to eat, drink, sleep
    Basicallky ok with this. But again: if may scare off more casual players that don't have that much time. Although it would be fun if you haven't played for a week to find your character being starved and asking for food when you logon! :)

    8. Conflict - The nations would be in war
    No real opinion on this. I just want to emphasize that an average sandbox game often just revolves around PvP.

    9. Death penalty
    That's a major issue. The thing is that if people would have permadeath, they hardly would engage in PvP (except with low level characters). It would become a rather peaceful world where no-one would risk his/her life witout any good reason (like our daily life reality).
    If you don't want a PvP run world, you could increase DP by (as you suggested) losing all your gear, a 10% stat decrease for an hour after each death. And so on.     
     
    Not sure about the sandbox idea, really. I´d rather have it a mix of sanbox elements (making villages and such) and PvE (dungeons, open world quets) because a lot of people don't really like PvP that much. It should be possible to just be a PvE player and still have enough to do.

     Thanks for the review.

    Some interesting thoughts there.

  • ikcinikcin AmberMember Posts: 703 Uncommon
    But you don't like Black Desert? I mean it has everything you want from MMORPG.

    image

  • TalinguardTalinguard Winchester, VAMember Posts: 676 Common
    Let me start by saying I havent' visited this forum in a while;.  I enjoy challenging peoples ideas and try to get everyone thinking.  I'm not going to sugar coat my comments, but they are not indented to be destructive, they are intended to constructive.  I have spent a LOT of time understanding game economies.  When you understand the economy of a game, which should be the foundation of any MMORPG, you understand peoples motivations and goals.  To often the way the economy works runs contrary to the fun that people should be having when playing a game.
     
    Originally posted by coretex666
      4) Drops - I would normally mention this later, but I want to state this before I get to economy and professions. It would be possible to obtain full drops from monsters. However, the drop rates would be really low (like e.g. Lineage 2 early chronicles). Instead of that, the monsters would be dropping mats. Realistic mats, so that if you kill a wolf you mayuse its skin for leather armor, you can use its teeth for some kind of tool, you can use its meat.

    I can see you've given your idea some thought.  I'm going to challenge you in the areas I'm familar with.....

    Obtaining drops from monsters means that people are motivated to kill monsters?  Correct?  If the drop rate is too low players won't find the game fun because only players with an enormous amount of time will have good stuff.....

    What about player made items you say?  Well it depends, which items are better, player made or drops?  If drops are better then players will obsess about obtaining them, making player made items inferior and of little value, if player made items are best, players will do whatever tasks they must do to collect the raw mats to make them

    So your economy is driven by....Killing NPC's?

    All the stuff that players bring into the world, how will you prevent saturation of items in the world?  Will you have decay?  Players hate decay, not because there items break, but generally because of what they have to do to fix it....

    5) Professions - This is where I think the game would be different. I would attempt at making it realistic. An individual player would not be a walking manufacture. There would be specialization.

    Specialization is good but there are pitfalls, what your describing can better be called the division of labor, the problem with this idea is that people who need other people to do what they want generally don't like not being able to find other people they need when they want them.  They will get frustrated very quickly if they have to wait.

    There are many resources in the world. For instance, you would have wood, stone, iron, silver, gold, diamonds, sand, cole, etc... Similar to minecraft lets say. I would like to have many levels of each resource in terms of quality. It would be harder to obtain better mats since they would either be in a location where the monsters are tougher or they would be in a common land where the PvP for resources takes place and where the monsters would also be harder anyway, also you would need tools of better quality to collect the mats.

    Who guards these raw mats?  I mean I assume this isn't simply a game of gathering.

    What your describing is a game where you trade time playing the game world to earn raw mats so that you can do what? 

    Those with more item to collect raw mats win?

    With respect, its sounds boring.  What do you say to players who play MMORPG's to play other players and not just the game?

    E.g. you will have location where you just cannot kill monsters with a wooden sword in order to get e.g. titanium which would make a sword 10 tiers higher. You would not be able to mine titanium with mining pick made of stone. It would be a very long process to go through all the tiers of resources, items and it would not be possible for an individual or a single guild. The whole nation has to cooperate and have a working economy in order to proceed and to surpass the other faction and control the unique resources in the common land. There would still be a very little chance of getting a full drop (it would still be a nice carrot sort of, imo). It would not be easy to make full items / final products. You would not be fighting dragons one day after you start playing. You will be glad to kill the most basic wolf a week after you start.

    I was talking about specialization. I think it is a key to bring the community together. It is why I used term Nation to label the faction. One person cuts the trees. Other person makes planks. Other person builds house. One person mines iron. Another person is a blacksmith making edges for weapons or agricultural / industrial tools. These people would have their houses / industry buildings where they can be approached by someone asking them to make a weapon, to build them a house, to make them some agricultural tools, etc.

    Again, the division of labor isn't a bad idea, but one must understand the problems associated with it.

    Simply put, every person will have their role in the economy similar to how it probably used to be in medieval times. As I mentioned, I would like the game to be realistic.

     

    7) Realism - You have to eat, drink, sleep where it is safe. How well you eat, sleep would influence your stats.

    Items have limited durability and when they break, they perish. You can have only limited amount of items on you. For instance, some sort of doctor can cure wounds, heal, cure diseases, etc. They could also make a bandage / potion / ointment which player can purchase and carry on them. However, it would not be like in most current games that you just buy 80 of these and you are fine. You could carry only a few of those for your adventures into the wilderness.

    Why do you want realism....I'm not being snarky...Think about it.  Does realism make it more fun?  Do you thank that it's more immersive?  People value fun over immersion.  I promise.  Nothing spoils a game faster than tedious actions performed in the name of immersion.

    Sleeping and eating are boring and people won't like it, period.  People want to PLAY a game not WORK it.

    Don't get me wrong.  I'm all about immersion, but again this is another pitfall you need to be careful of.

    As far as durability (decay).  This is simply a  to remove stuff from the world.  period, that's all it is.  Now because players are constantly bringing stuff and money into the world stuff has to be taken out, so I see decay as a necessary part of the game, however, the problem is, how to people cure decay?  Is it to farm mobs and endless hours of gathering...Boring, people won't like it.

    If your going to have decay, which I think you should, overcoming it has to be fun, otherwise people will hate it.

    Don't get realism confused with fun.  If you have a mechanism in the game like sleep or eating, that's ok, but don't do it because its "realistic", do it because there is some other necessary mechanism in the game tied to it.  For example in an effort to create consumption of the millions of items players drag into the world, perhaps players can avoid sleep if they use raw mats combined to make a potion that allows players to avoid sleep.  This is a simple mechinism to encourage consumption and increase demand for mats that might otherwise build up.

    Basically:

    Fun>Realism

     

    8) Conflict - The nations would be in war. Which nation has the upper hand would be to a large extent influenced by the economy. An army of soldiers with wooden swords and shields would get easily destroyed by army geared with iron stuff. It would also motivate the nation to work together as one big team.

    What your creating is a situation where players have to play the game to get stuff.  Then they use that stuff to play against other players.  So my success in battle has more to do with how much and how well I play against the game rather than how well I do against other players.  

    Be original, this has been done sooooo many times.

    As mentioned before, each nation can access the land of the other nation. I would suggest having guards in the cities.

    They could either be NPCs (although I want to keep minimum number of NPCs in the world. Maybe even eliminate them completely.)

    Eliminating NPC's, while a fresh and innovative idea, is going to be tough.  Monsters are NPC's right?  

    the number of which would depend on city defense expenses. I can imagine having basic financial statements for each city / or even province into which the nations land can be divided (by players) accessible for view in a city hall. (Something really simple like Revenues from taxes, Expenses on defense, investments to infrastructure, etc, so that players could see how well the city government is doing and probably not vote for them next time if the city is running out of money or is investing money inefficiently).

    You havent established your coin-of-the-realm, where it comes from and how to plan to prevent inflation, so it's had to comment on the aspects that involve money.

    Or they can be player professions. It would require making a reward system for this profession as the professions would be main source of players' income (next to material drops from monsters and very rare full drops which definitely cannot be considered as source of stable income. You would get 1 full drop in several months of playing. Like I said, similar to L2 C1). Due to the fact that the cities probably would not be under constant attacks of other nation, it would require monsters to attack the city. Not sure if it is possible, but I would like to have randomly attacking animals e.g. pack of wolves zerging the city as well as well organized attacks of humanoid monsters e.g. a group of thieves approaching carefully the city and picking some strategic target for their invasion. The player guards would then be rewarded for every monster killed or invasion stopped. There would be many various types of mobs attacking the city in a unique random way.

    Nothing more frustrating then being zerged by random NPC mob....

    The progress in the profession of guards could be done through hyerarchy. Getting experience for defeating invasions, protecting others, etc would increase your rank once in a while.

    9) Death penalty - I personally do not have anything against perma death. However, in this game, I would suggest not to go with perma death. In a game in which you "invest" time and energy, you should not be able to lose everything you worked for in a blink of an eye. I would go with full loot for sure. You drop everything you are carrying with you.

    Full loot is another bad idea in a game where items have so much influence.  It punishes people who are new and casual and in my experience the communities are filled with greifing 16 year old's who like to ruin the experiences of other players.  Again, this is been done, there are other innovative alternatives to full loot and meaningless death....

    This is an area open to innovation and original thinking.

    I know I am not addressing some aspects of the game. As I said, it is just a concept and I have not dedicated so much time to it yet. But I would like to know if this may the kind of game people are asking for when they say "We want worlds, not games".

    Any thoughts?

    I wanna know, being an economist, where your money comes from? 

    How would you prevent inflation?

    Would you have action markets that are global or localized?

    What about travel. how easy is it to travel in your world?

    How much can a player carry, or bank?

    How would you prevent hording (if at all)?

     

    Just a few things to get you started.  I apologize if you've answered some of this already in the thread, it's long and I didn't read it all.  Feel free to point me to a post if you've answered or addressed my questions.

    Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  • nerovergilnerovergil klMember Posts: 372 Uncommon

    Eat and drink is fine.

    Make like GW2 where the food give buff to players for some time

  • jaaz75jaaz75 HelensburghMember Posts: 4 Uncommon
    Good ideas OP . I have a few ideas to add as well:

    1. Missile weapons should be manually aimed with the mouse.

    2. The chance to hit should be calculated by the server using the laws of physics.

    3. The chance to penetrate armour should be calculated in the same way and be dependent on armour type , speed of missile etc.

    4. Taking an arrow to a vital area of the body should kill instantly. To the legs should slow the victims movement etc.

    5. Movement of the characters should be realistic like in the Batman Arkham game not like in Darkfall which is jerky all over the place. The laws of physics apply here too.

    6. The game should require you to wee and poo which will be funny as hell. Seeing a dragon up close might cause either or both natural functions to occur.

    7. Swinging your melee weapon should be realistic. A bit like Skyrim but with added complexity or types of attack and defensive moves.

    8. There should full collision detection implemented for all objects which will allow for interesting tactics to be tried like shield walls (roman/spartan origin), or forcing enemy over a narrow bridge (battle of stirling bridge origin)

    9. When you Stab or slice into someone or some monster then you should get blood on your blade. It will be educational to people and teach them the horrors of violence.

    So what would the cost be to develop this game?
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