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The culling bugs are worse than you think--and unlikely to ever receive anything more than a half-ba

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  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    On a technical focused thread like this, always look for who attacks the poster rather than the tech information / facts. If you know your stuff you don't have to attack just post the knowledge and see the other side squirm and try to attack you.

    I love that the pro-gw2 is classifying culling as a 'minor bug'. I guess Anet is lying then.

    Arenanet didn't classify it as a bug but as a problem.

    Arenanet also said the culling is server-side, not client side.

    Arenanet also said that the number of characters the server report to the client is limited.

    That is where the OP started from.

    There is also the delay related to loading assets that mean the enemies will take time to be drawn and might be on top of you durinf the interval between the server reporting the enemy and your client render it.

    All this is said in the OP and what is said by Anet.

    Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".

    In sPvP there also used to be problems with enemies popping after you were dead and that doesn't happen now.

     

    So it is a question of believing Anet or not. I see no advantage of giving specifics that are lies - they could just be vague and they said they were fixing it.

     

     

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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
    And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

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  • FARGIN_WARFARGIN_WAR New York, NYPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     


    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
    And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

     

    Well since you seem to be the expert here on the culling issue then, can you please explain its exact cause and give us the steps to rectify the issue and an ETA on how long such a fix should take?

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  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    Sorry if this has been addressed, I didn't read the entire thread.

    Umbra. GW2 uses Umbra 3 occlusion culling in GW2. Any discussion of the culling problems in GW2 that doesn't focus on Umbra 3 seems to be missing the biggest piece of the puzzle.

    Umbra 3 handles visual and auditory culling for GW2 by modeling a virtual representation of the game world using propriatary algorithms and systems.

    I don't know if the problems here are flaws in Umbra 3, or flaws in the way Arenanet has integrated Umbra 3 into GW2, or both, but examination of the Umbra 3 tech is crucial for understanding the culling issues in GW2.

    I hope Quizzical will do a bit of digging on Umbra 3 and then do a new analysis of the possible causes/solutions for the culling issues in GW2.

    During beta, you could turn off Umbra and use GW2s original culling solution. Performance hit, for me, was about 10% to FPS, but I ran with Umbra off during most of the beta events and with it off, I never had culling issues in WvW or elsewhere. Near the end of Beta, they removed the shortcut command line toggle and the game fully transitioned to the use of Umbra for culling. At the switch, there were massive problems with culling in the game, with entire landscapes vanishing under certain conditions. These issues seem to have been manually fixed, for the most part, in time for launch, but the remaining issues have been persistant or have even become worse since launch.

    Even during the first month after launch, WvW culling seemed to be an infrequent issue, despite the fact that the queues were full almost 24/7. At around the same time culling started to become a bigger and bigger issue in WvW, sound culling and load time issues for certain locations, most notably Lion's Arch, also started to become constant.

    The smoking gun has Umbra 3 branded on it's side, but I'd have to ask people with more knowledge of the technical details to tell me why exactly it's smoking so profusely!

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
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  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    This link may give a little insight on the integration of Umbra 3 into GW2.

    http://www.umbrasoftware.com/clients/case-studies/guild-wars-2-case-study/

    A possible clue here:

    2 Brand Wire

    About dynamic objects…can you talk a bit about how the culling of dynamic objects was integrated into your engine’s rendering pipeline? How much work and issues did this bring along?

    Guild Wars 2 typically has thousands of dynamic objects active at any given time. These include characters, spell effects, particles, lights, etc… Each has variable lifetimes, complicating interaction with Umbra 3. To simplify this, we added a new management system to track object lifetime and bounding volume data. This system serves as the primary culling interface to the rest of the renderer.

    At a high level, we first process static object results from a Tome query at the start of our render pass. This generates a small depth buffer used to cull dynamic objects. The object manager provides lists of dynamic objects to test against this buffer, along with any supporting data. Objects that pass the culling test are queued for render.

    Our greatest challenge was developing this system within the framework of a large, mature code base relatively late in production. The results were worth it! The Guild Wars 2 client regularly processes tens of thousands of unique renderable objects while maintaining high frame rates on a wide range of hardware.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     


    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
    And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

     

    Well since you seem to be the expert here on the culling issue then, can you please explain its exact cause and give us the steps to rectify the issue and an ETA on how long such a fix should take?

    Without access to the code no one can.

    But someone with access to the code, Arenanet already pointed the general cause and an estimate to have fixes in place.

    Of course it is convenient to try to make Anet incompetent (not the OP btw) since it is cool it to bash it since it has no sub and all while ignoring the complexities inherent to having a physic engine like the one GW2 use, have such a huge amount of players per map in WvW and each character have a ton of customization (for example PS2 another MMO with a pretty sturdy physics engine has less charracter customization) opposed to the large majority of the MMORPGs that simply lack collision detection and projectile physics.

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,978Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     


    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
    And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

     

    This discussion in this thread is a bit above my head, but I will say that over the years Quiz has proven himself to be a very knowledeable poster with no real hidden agenda for or against any particular game.

    Now you on the other hand, not so much.

     

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  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     


    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
    And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

     

    Well since you seem to be the expert here on the culling issue then, can you please explain its exact cause and give us the steps to rectify the issue and an ETA on how long such a fix should take?

    Without access to the code no one can.

    But someone with access to the code, Arenanet already pointed the general cause and an estimate to have fixes in place.

    Of course it is convenient to try to make Anet incompetent (not the OP btw) since it is cool it to bash it since it has no sub and all while ignoring the complexities inherent to having a physic engine like the one GW2 use, have such a huge amount of players per map in WvW and each character have a ton of customization (for example PS2 another MMO with a pretty sturdy physics engine has less charracter customization) opposed to the large majority of the MMORPGs that simply lack collision detection and projectile physics.

    Pretty much this ^

    The main issue with Culling (and Anet has NOT been shy about explaining this), is how the game prioritizes it's data. There are definitely some optimization issues with the game engine (i.e. getting only 20 buddies to display at once, is not impressive), but without knowing exactly and all variables the game is checking for and processing, no one but Anet can know that much detail. And it would be unreasonable to ask them for such.

    I have my own doubts about Anet's ability to fix the issue, but they've only ever promised they'd work on it. Which they have been. Furthermore, there is a lot more going on in this game than most. When you look at any other MMO, what goes on under the hood is very stripped down by comparison, in favor of being able to process more data. This is why the older games tended to be more 'massive'. They had less variables to compute at any given time, so they could process a lot more of them. There may come a time when Anet decides to reduce / remove some minor feature in favor of performance, but for now I don't think that'll happen.

  • SonicTHISonicTHI -Posts: 149Member

    The culling "bug" talked about in GW2 is an entity based thing. Its not about rendering but about what the server is limited to send to the clients. AFIK that is 50 entities: NPCs, players, mobs.

    But.
    Graphical culling or rather the bad implementation of it might be one of the reasons why they are not just upping that number. Other reasons being bandwidth and server cycles of course.

    With current max of 50 visible players/foes even the best CPUs OCed to the max cannot run the game at 60 FPS. Older quads like my Q6600 at 3.2 drop to 10.
    Whether that is due to bad graphical culling, client side calculations of movement, bad optimization etc. is hard to tell without seeing the code but from what i ve seen the biggest problem is in the engine not using more than 2 CPU cores effectively.

    The game simply doesnt scale well for lower or mid end rigs. Till they fix that they might as well leave the entity culling in the game.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,261Member Uncommon

    This thread reminds me of the Hero engine thread during the early swtor days.

     

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,770Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SonicTHI

    The culling "bug" talked about in GW2 is an entity based thing. Its not about rendering but about what the server is limited to send to the clients. AFIK that is 50 entities: NPCs, players, mobs.

    But.
    Graphical culling or rather the bad implementation of it might be one of the reasons why they are not just upping that number. Other reasons being bandwidth and server cycles of course.

    With current max of 50 visible players/foes even the best CPUs OCed to the max cannot run the game at 60 FPS. Older quads like my Q6600 at 3.2 drop to 10.
    Whether that is due to bad graphical culling, client side calculations of movement, bad optimization etc. is hard to tell without seeing the code but from what i ve seen the biggest problem is in the engine not using more than 2 CPU cores effectively.

    The game simply doesnt scale well for lower or mid end rigs. Till they fix that they might as well leave the entity culling in the game.

    Culling is a performance optimization.  For bad culling to harm performance, you'd have to be not culling enough things--such as by not bothering to cull anything at all.  Problems with culling are only obvious when it does the opposite:  culling things that it should draw.

    I've seen characters vanish with <10 that were remotely nearby.  If that's caused by capping the number of characters that it will display at 50, it would have to be astonishingly bad at picking which 50.  I've even seen my own character get culled, and I'd think that would be the highest priority character to draw.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     

    Originally posted by jpnz
    On a technical focused thread like this, always look for who attacks the poster rather than the tech information / facts. If you know your stuff you don't have to attack just post the knowledge and see the other side squirm and try to attack you.

    I rather look for those who shout "ad hominem attacks" when someone just challenges their knowledge. When you really know what you're talking about, you don't have to cry wolf when someone challenges it. But to each his own agenda, I guess.

    .

     

    Let me get this straight cause this is absolutely hilarious.

    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard And that's exactly how it sounds - like someone who has read about 3D computing theory but has little practical knowledge.

    is your post. Right?

    So you are saying this quote isn't 'ad hominem attacks' and it isn't a personal attack?

    I mean... wow.. the irony..

    I love that Quizzical is just dropping technical knowledge after technical knowledge to back his statements up while the other side is saying 'that's not a personal attack!' to the quoted post above.

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,770Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Try reading the original post. There are at least three entirely separate classes of culling bugs in the game with totally different causes.  Completely fixing one of them would probably leave the others unaffected entirely.  You seem to want to focus on just one particular culling bug, and then argue that any discussion of other culling bugs in the game is automatically wrong because it doesn't apply to the particular culling bug that you have in mind.

    That's precisely what's wrong with your original post. You mix up several different "problems".

    There is only ONE noteworthy "culling problem" in GW2, even though there definitely are several minor display bugs like in most if not all other 3D games. It's the "invisible entities" problem, notably in World vs World. Everything else is totally unrelated and only technical blah blah, in my country we say "trying to drown the fish". And that's a pure, 100% distance culling related problem, the order at which incoming entities are told being "in visible range" to the various clients in range and then loaded and displayed by those clients. There's no visibility culling involved, no camera clipping or collision either, no entity collisions either. Visibility culling due to obstacles between the viewer and the target only happen after the distance culling... and the distance culling bug (aka "invisible armies") happen even on totally flat terrain without any building or other object or entity blocking the sight.

    From the sound of your OP, one may think all the problems are related and therefore cannot be fixed. I call Shannanigans on that. The ANet guys actually gave some hints in their posts which confirm that.

    To make it short... you make a long post with an alarming title saying "culling bugs are bad and unlikely to ever be completely fixed". I don't agree at all. Those minor bugs most if not all games have, like the camera culling/collision problems, will most likely never get fixed because they are only a minor annoyance not worth developer time. But pretending that because of those minor bugs, the major problem can't be fixed is... nonsense.

    Many games will have some minor issues with near clipping plane culling making small, nearby objects look all wrong.  That's nearly intrinsic to how clipping is done, and it would take some major sacrifices to avoid it entirely--such as using an isometric viewpoint.

    Guild Wars 2 takes this much further, however, and can make entire mountains completely vanish.  It routinely lets you see straight through solid walls.  I don't recall seeing any other released game do anything like that.  And that's just one of the classes of culling bugs.

    There are also more distant objects that mysteriously don't draw.  In some cases, whether something draws or not depends on your camera angle.  This is for objects not close to any of the clipping planes, whether the near plane or otherwise.  Furthermore, the object abruptly vanishes, rather than getting sliced up as it crosses a clipping plane.  When it happens to terrain, it's not network code.  And I don't think I've ever seen this happen in any other released game.  In Guild Wars 2, it happens in quite a number of places.

    Maybe you think they're minor bugs, but I think they're distracting--and they're definitely culling bugs.  Just like I think it's distracting how the camera jumps around when you're up against a wall--even when you're standing still.  Guild Wars 2's graphics are very impressive in screenshots, but substantially less so when you try to play the game, due to the graphical glitches.  It's hardly game-breaking, but it's still a nuisance.

  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    this is what i do not get about this issue though. Warhammer online used the game byro engine which is a crappy engine by far but there was PLENTY of times you had well over 100 people on screen fighting. That game is not that much older than the engine they used for gw2 yet you cant even have more than 30 people on screen sometimes and culling toons begins.  DAOC was the same way I remember having many epic relic raid battles and that engine got laggy but that was about it , you could see everyone.
  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by cronius77
    this is what i do not get about this issue though. Warhammer online used the game byro engine which is a crappy engine by far but there was PLENTY of times you had well over 100 people on screen fighting. That game is not that much older than the engine they used for gw2 yet you cant even have more than 30 people on screen sometimes and culling toons begins.  DAOC was the same way I remember having many epic relic raid battles and that engine got laggy but that was about it , you could see everyone.

    I suspect that the combat engine has to keep track a lot more in terms of combo fields and other things is what breaks this.

    Making your combat system complicated and more intensive in terms of calculations and then strapping this engine on top is just bad judgement.

    GW2 is all about 'scaling', it is one of their 'vision'. Which makes this very very bizzare.

    'Our game is all about groups and large amount of players!'

    'Therefore lets make our combat system more complicated!'

    That's just not logical. Either ANet massively miscalculated what they could do or something fell off during development.

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,770Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by cronius77
    this is what i do not get about this issue though. Warhammer online used the game byro engine which is a crappy engine by far but there was PLENTY of times you had well over 100 people on screen fighting. That game is not that much older than the engine they used for gw2 yet you cant even have more than 30 people on screen sometimes and culling toons begins.  DAOC was the same way I remember having many epic relic raid battles and that engine got laggy but that was about it , you could see everyone.

    I suspect that the combat engine has to keep track a lot more in terms of combo fields and other things is what breaks this.

    Making your combat system complicated and more intensive in terms of calculations and then strapping this engine on top is just bad judgement.

    GW2 is all about 'scaling', it is one of their 'vision'. Which makes this very very bizzare.

    'Our game is all about groups and large amount of players!'

    'Therefore lets make our combat system more complicated!'

    That's just not logical. Either ANet massively miscalculated what they could do or something fell off during development.

    Just because complex computations have to be done server side doesn't mean that you can't replicate them client-side, as well.  Combo fields could put a considerable load on client rendering, but shouldn't have much if any impact on network activity.  The server tells the client that player X used skill Y at position Z and time t, and the client can interpret that as meaning that a combo field sits at position Z for 6 seconds and act accordingly.

    It's pretty easy to have 50 characters all told what every single other character is doing if you don't have to update them very often--which I suspect is a trick that games known for having a large number of players in an area at once commonly use, especially for players who are relatively further away.  If you and some enemy are way too far apart to hit each other, the game could update his position and velocity twice per second and it would seem fine.  If there are 20 other players nearer to you, then you probably wouldn't notice a bit of rubber banding on the faraway player, anyway.  You need to be informed more frequently about players who you're near.

  • stayontargetstayontarget Tacoma, WAPosts: 6,068Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by SonicTHI
    /snip

    Culling is a performance optimization.  For bad culling to harm performance, you'd have to be not culling enough things--such as by not bothering to cull anything at all.  Problems with culling are only obvious when it does the opposite:  culling things that it should draw.

    I've seen characters vanish with <10 that were remotely nearby.  If that's caused by capping the number of characters that it will display at 50, it would have to be astonishingly bad at picking which 50.  I've even seen my own character get culled, and I'd think that would be the highest priority character to draw.

    But even if the cap is say "50" or "25",  you should still see a cut out of the NPC or PC above the cap, just not rendered.  Or this engine does it differently.

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  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stayontarget
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by SonicTHI
    /snip

    Culling is a performance optimization.  For bad culling to harm performance, you'd have to be not culling enough things--such as by not bothering to cull anything at all.  Problems with culling are only obvious when it does the opposite:  culling things that it should draw.

    I've seen characters vanish with <10 that were remotely nearby.  If that's caused by capping the number of characters that it will display at 50, it would have to be astonishingly bad at picking which 50.  I've even seen my own character get culled, and I'd think that would be the highest priority character to draw.

    But even if the cap is say "50" or "25",  you should still see a cut out of the NPC or PC above the cap, just not rendered.  Or this engine does it differently.

    True, though the engine isn't currently being used to do that. However, they're ability to load placeholder models suggests that the ability to implement such is there, just not being utilized atm.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Just because complex computations have to be done server side doesn't mean that you can't replicate them client-side, as well.  Combo fields could put a considerable load on client rendering, but shouldn't have much if any impact on network activity.  The server tells the client that player X used skill Y at position Z and time t, and the client can interpret that as meaning that a combo field sits at position Z for 6 seconds and act accordingly.

    It's pretty easy to have 50 characters all told what every single other character is doing if you don't have to update them very often--which I suspect is a trick that games known for having a large number of players in an area at once commonly use, especially for players who are relatively further away.  If you and some enemy are way too far apart to hit each other, the game could update his position and velocity twice per second and it would seem fine.  If there are 20 other players nearer to you, then you probably wouldn't notice a bit of rubber banding on the faraway player, anyway.  You need to be informed more frequently about players who you're near.

    I've actually seen no evidence to suggest combo fields make any difference when it comes to culling. Outside of stealth, the issue seems to have nothing to do w/ player skills being used.

    While firing off tons of skills and combo fields can result in a ton of lag, it doesn't really have any effect on what gets rendered. I.E. you may get a slideshow, but things won't start becoming invisible.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,770Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stayontarget
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by SonicTHI
    /snip

    Culling is a performance optimization.  For bad culling to harm performance, you'd have to be not culling enough things--such as by not bothering to cull anything at all.  Problems with culling are only obvious when it does the opposite:  culling things that it should draw.

    I've seen characters vanish with <10 that were remotely nearby.  If that's caused by capping the number of characters that it will display at 50, it would have to be astonishingly bad at picking which 50.  I've even seen my own character get culled, and I'd think that would be the highest priority character to draw.

    But even if the cap is say "50" or "25",  you should still see a cut out of the NPC or PC above the cap, just not rendered.  Or this engine does it differently.

    That depends on whether the cap is due to network activity or client rendering limitations.  If it's network activity, then telling the client where to put a placeholder character takes just as much bandwidth as telling it where to put the real player.  And if it's client rendering, then the cap should be adjustable by the end user so that people who have the hardware to draw 100 characters can do so.

  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 583Member Uncommon

    Quizz- "X, Y, and Z will make GW2 impossible or excessively expensive to fix.  Likely won't happen"

    Jean-Luc- "X and Y are in no way related to Z.  Why are you bringing them up?"

     

    OP-  Simply put, you add a lot of unrelated issues to culling in WvW to bolster your point, which is clearly stated in the title of your thread: "The culling bugs are worse than you think--and unlikely to ever receive anything more than a half-baked partial fix".

    So yeah, I see why Jean Luc is ripping you apart for your first 2 or 3 points that are unrelated to WvW.  Now if you would have just stuck with the one point relative to WvW culling, it would be different.  But then you wouldnt be able to use your "never be fixed" line of argument because it wouldnt sound as strong, would you?

     

    I really dont get people these days.  It's like they have to find something to hate and be negative about, and not only that but spew it on everyone.  Good grief, gamers are getting uglier by the day.

  • GrymmoireGrymmoire Columbus, OHPosts: 42Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cronius77
    this is what i do not get about this issue though. Warhammer online used the game byro engine which is a crappy engine by far but there was PLENTY of times you had well over 100 people on screen fighting. That game is not that much older than the engine they used for gw2 yet you cant even have more than 30 people on screen sometimes and culling toons begins.  DAOC was the same way I remember having many epic relic raid battles and that engine got laggy but that was about it , you could see everyone.

    Not to mention the huge battles in Shadowbane that to my recollection, also had many particle and spell effects (and lag) but never did I notice their culling; obviously that engine is ancient in comparison too.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Let me get this straight cause this is absolutely hilarious.

    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard And that's exactly how it sounds - like someone who has read about 3D computing theory but has little practical knowledge.

    is your post. Right?

    So you are saying this quote isn't 'ad hominem attacks' and it isn't a personal attack?

    I mean... wow.. the irony..

    I love that Quizzical is just dropping technical knowledge after technical knowledge to back his statements up while the other side is saying 'that's not a personal attack!' to the quoted post above.

    Dropping tecnical terms =/= dropping knowledge.

    And one (well more) big flaw with his OP:

    1. hes guessing he dosent have access to code or inner workings of GW2 and his guess is as good as anyones

    2. in fact he also doesnt talk about THE culling, but on some minor bugs that noone really cares about. Give me one complaint about "OMG being able to peek through specific shape rock formation is making me quit" In fact i can only applaud ANet for lack of "terrain issues" which is best ive encounterd so far.

    3. THE culling is not a bug, its actaully system they used, and while that system was working good with PvE it was (is) not suitable for PvP

    So yah, i would say that his lack of adressing THE culling that is actual issue people complain about is lack of experience of actually experiencing THE culling because he obviously didnt do much Wx3 where it was actually visible. In fact most people didnt even know there was (they had) culling in LA for example. They only started noticing THE culling recently where they changed some things about it.

    4. IMO, and from what i observed and experienced issue with THE culling is completely different bag of marbles that they are trying to solve and solutions well get is actually peformance related (the way they attacked the problem with fallback models first) on lower end machines (read mid min and below min spec machines) and using separate method for PvE and PvP

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grymmoire
    Originally posted by cronius77
    this is what i do not get about this issue though. Warhammer online used the game byro engine which is a crappy engine by far but there was PLENTY of times you had well over 100 people on screen fighting. That game is not that much older than the engine they used for gw2 yet you cant even have more than 30 people on screen sometimes and culling toons begins.  DAOC was the same way I remember having many epic relic raid battles and that engine got laggy but that was about it , you could see everyone.

    Not to mention the huge battles in Shadowbane that to my recollection, also had many particle and spell effects (and lag) but never did I notice their culling; obviously that engine is ancient in comparison too.

    It is called nostalgia.

    And of course DAoC had much less information to keep track of.

    Anet could turn off the culling and then the complains would be "slide show" and "I keep crashing" which were the complains during the BWE.

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/50161

    Robert Mull of Warhammer Online Dev team at Mythic Entertainment has put up a statement on the Herald. If you have been noticing a significant drop in client performance while in some large scale RvR battles, rest assured that they are working on the issue.

    The WAR community has expressed concern with overall performance and server stability in Tier 4, particularly during large-scale fortress sieges. We want you to know that we’re listening and dedicated to resolving this issue as quickly as possible. Our Production team has been working hard to resolve this with both server-side fixes to resolve any crashing issues, as well as client-side fixes to improve frame rate and other graphic-related issues that can occur during large battles.

    RvR is a core element to Warhammer Online, and we are committed to making it an enjoyable and exciting experience for all of our players. Our ultimate goal is to have our players focused on fighting their opponents and experiencing the thrill of RvR the way it should be. Thank you for your continued support and patience while we work to resolve these issues. We’ll keep you updated on our progress.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
     

    Dropping tecnical terms =/= dropping knowledge.

    And one (well more) big flaw with his OP:

    /more technically irrelevant posts

    Once again, we have the 'pro-GW2' side attacking the poster rather than the post itself.

    Phrases like 'hes guessing', minor bugs that no one really cares about, his lack of experience'.

    Also notice how most of this post is filled with 'what I observed and experienced / my opinion' while the OP is all about factual information and technical knowledge?

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

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