Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

The culling bugs are worse than you think--and unlikely to ever receive anything more than a half-ba

245

Comments

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dimnikar

    Culling is only buggy when you notice it.

     

    If you can't see it working - then it's doing what it's supposed to.

    While that's a pretty good summary, it's not quite right.  One may well be able to notice some things disappearing at a particular distance far away even though it's implemented intentionally.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Agreed and so is the Loot nerfs/permaDR bug. They've had 4-5 months now to fix those and they still haven't done it yet. Been watching. There's a new forum post about the loot problem and the culling problem daily (and I do include the posts about how thieves need nerfing because they have omgwtfbbqstealth GASP in that count) people keep thinking its the class it's not. The only thing I keep seeing is them saying either the problems don't exist (as they do with the loot, thousands of people's experiences are wrong despite video and screenshot evidence to the contrary you see) or that they are endlessly looking into the problem (like they've done with culling.) Oh well onward to a game title that has better management methinks. So much for GW2.

    I'm not aware of any game that has ever had loot bugs that were basically unfixable.  That a company doesn't bother to fix a fairly simple glitch doesn't mean that they couldn't have fixed it if they made it into a major priority.  To completely fix the culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 would likely cost ArenaNet millions of dollars.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
     

    Cullinng is best known as hidden surface determination, hidden surface removal, occlusion culling or visible surface determination.

    Guild Wars 2 uses the Umbrs Occlusion engine.

    No, culling isn't a bug.

    /More irrelevant posts that doesn't address the issue; near plane clipping.

    Notice that ANet keeps on harping about models and how it doesn't render them and how the bandwidth / processing isn't there on the server / client etc etc?

    Notice that they don't say that clipping could be why? Notice that they never say it is their 'engine'?

    I have some very basic understanding of this but even I can see that they wrote a whole lot of 'stuff' without actually telling us it is their engine that's the problem.

     

    Edit 1: if you want to refute Quizzical with technical knowledge go ahead. I'd love to see someone try cause it'll be hilarious.

    What do you think renders the models? What do you think send the information regarding player position?

    Their engine mom?

    The order of operations looks like this:
    1) Character X enters player’s visibility
    2)
    delay due to the mechanics of culling

    3) Server reports character X to client
    4)
    delay due to asset load time

    5) Character X full model is visible on-screen to the player

    Using fallback models we end up with this instead
    1) Character X enters player’s visibility
    2)
    delay due to the mechanics of culling                           

    3) Server reports character X to client
    4a) Character X fallback model is visible on-screen to the player
    4b)
    delay due to asset load time

    5) Character X full model is visible on-screen to the player

    I think the OP is underestimating the extensive bandwitdh required as the main culprit rather than anything regarding the physic engine (which is something I bring often since I feel most people have no real perception of how taxing is a good physic engine and how that lead to zones connected by loading screens opposed to semaless worlds that have no collision detection).but to the high amount of information going not only in the server but between server and client.

    Which is why one of the solutions pointed is to initially send a standard representation of the enemy profession and only later send the customization details.

    In fact that also goes more in line with how DEs break and how in PvE sometimes you only see players when you are almost on top of them.

     

    Want to read more about bandwitdh management with tons of players involved?

    http://www.fsegames.eu/devblog1.html

     

    There are a bunch of different culling bugs in the game, not just one.  One culling bug may be network-related, but it's not the only one.  If you want to blame everything on network code, then how do you explain why terrain sometimes gets improperly culled?  That's done completely client-side.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    I'm not aware of any game that has ever had loot bugs that were basically unfixable.  That a company doesn't bother to fix a fairly simple glitch doesn't mean that they couldn't have fixed it if they made it into a major priority.  To completely fix the culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 would likely cost ArenaNet millions of dollars.

    In other words, the cost-benefit just isn't there?

    (There's a category of bugs that can be roughly defined as "too expensive to fix, too many man-hours", without question.)

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    You don't need to make the entity clipping full 3D in a game like GW2. The horizontal distance from the camera works just fine. And even a 3D distance calculation between two points is child's play on today's computers, not to mention most games use a cube instead of a sphere for culling distance.

    And the fact that entities are visible "too late" (or not at all) has nothing to do with collision detections, you mix up two totally different problems. Collision detection can be done even if the two colliding entities aren't even displayed. Do you really think they make collision detections client side?

    Whether computing a distance between two points is child's play depends on how many times you have to do it and how fast.  A trillion times per second certainly is not.

    For network code, yes, you're probably just looking at the distance between two points.  But for some things, you're looking at the distance between two irregularly shaped objects, and having to ask how far one of them could move in a particular direction before they collide--and then which direction they should subsequently go if they do collide.  That's computationally intractible if you have to redo it a huge number of times every single frame.  That's why physics computations are completely independent of graphics computations and use much simpler shapes.

    Most likely, all collision detection computations are done first client-side, and then some (but not all!) of them are verified server-side.  Where to place the camera is done client-side only, as even if you verify it server-side and find that the client was wrong, it's too late to do anything about it as the client has long since moved on to the next frame.

    You're still missing the point.

    Collision detection has NOTHING to do with distance culling, and the problem in GW2 is distance culling. The problem is that some entities appear too late in high density situations, which is distance culling.

    You are mixing up several things which are very different here.

     

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    To completely fix the culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 would likely cost ArenaNet millions of dollars.

    I'm sure you had a look into their source code before posting such a bold expert opinion...

    Let's be serious, will you?

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    You don't need to make the entity clipping full 3D in a game like GW2. The horizontal distance from the camera works just fine. And even a 3D distance calculation between two points is child's play on today's computers, not to mention most games use a cube instead of a sphere for culling distance.

    And the fact that entities are visible "too late" (or not at all) has nothing to do with collision detections, you mix up two totally different problems. Collision detection can be done even if the two colliding entities aren't even displayed. Do you really think they make collision detections client side?

    Whether computing a distance between two points is child's play depends on how many times you have to do it and how fast.  A trillion times per second certainly is not.

    For network code, yes, you're probably just looking at the distance between two points.  But for some things, you're looking at the distance between two irregularly shaped objects, and having to ask how far one of them could move in a particular direction before they collide--and then which direction they should subsequently go if they do collide.  That's computationally intractible if you have to redo it a huge number of times every single frame.  That's why physics computations are completely independent of graphics computations and use much simpler shapes.

    Most likely, all collision detection computations are done first client-side, and then some (but not all!) of them are verified server-side.  Where to place the camera is done client-side only, as even if you verify it server-side and find that the client was wrong, it's too late to do anything about it as the client has long since moved on to the next frame.

    You're still missing the point.

    Collision detection has NOTHING to do with distance culling, and the problem in GW2 is distance culling. The problem is that some entities appear too late in high density situations, which is distance culling.

    You are mixing up several things which are very different here.

     

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    To completely fix the culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 would likely cost ArenaNet millions of dollars.

    I'm sure you had a look into their source code before posting such a bold expert opinion...

    Let's be serious, will you?

    Where to place the camera in a given frame is partially a matter of collision detection.  If you place the camera in the "wrong" place, then you end up culling some things that you shouldn't.  Guild Wars 2 has a rather bad case of this.  There are several different culling bugs, and this is the cause of one of them--but not all of them.  It is likely the one that would be the hardest to fix, however.

    -----

    That I said it would "likely" cost millions rather than "definitely" was a concession that I'm guessing.  But fixing the near plane clipping problems would mean having to completely redo collision detection, and that means having to redo a considerable chunk of every single model in the game that has any physics attached.  Whether or not that would cost millions, it certainly wouldn't be cheap.

    Now, you can get partial fixes for much cheaper than that, and ArenaNet likely will.  It's probable that ameliorating the network-based culling issues would be a lot cheaper than that.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Volmok

    I had a blast reading this post. It reminded me of my 3D computing courses and exams at Computer Science :D

    And that's exactly how it sounds - like someone who has read about 3D computing theory but has little practical knowledge.

    Hooray for ad hominem attacks?

    Have you ever implemented culling in a 3D game engine--and not just licensed some off-the-shelf approach, but implemented your own from scratch?  Considered how collision detection for a camera has to be different from collision detection for players running into a wall?  Computed the maximum possible near plane clipping distance that was safe to avoid improper culling as a function of how your camera placement works, the size and shape of the game window, and the user-adjustable field of view constant?  Debated the relative merits of a signed area versus normal vector approaches to back face culling?  (If you've got geometry shaders, you can use either one, and don't have to rely on the fixed-function signed area approach.)  Carefully considered when it was safe to cull entire patches in tessellation control shaders (signed area never works here, and sometimes normal vectors don't, either)?  Tried manually setting the depth in fragment shaders rather than using the fixed-function depth buffer?  Figured out exactly why 3D graphics needs to use homogeneous coordinates in RP^3 rather than ordinary rectangular, cylindrical, or spherical coordinates in R^3?

    And as a result of all of that, seen a whole slew of client-side culling bugs that you've created and had to fix?

    Because I have.  And as a result, I recognize some of the culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 as things that I've done myself.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon

    C

     

    N

     

     

    Wait can you clear up things and first start by explaining what the problem is?

    Whats a culling bug?

    image

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Volmok

    I had a blast reading this post. It reminded me of my 3D computing courses and exams at Computer Science :D

    And that's exactly how it sounds - like someone who has read about 3D computing theory but has little practical knowledge.

     

    The irony when you post that the camera doesn't need collision detection.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    C

     

    N

     

     

    Wait can you clear up things and first start by explaining what the problem is?

    Whats a culling bug?

    Loosely, "culling" means that a game engine considers whether to draw something and decides not to.  A culling "bug" means that it decides not to draw something in a situation where it should have drawn it.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    5 star guide. Thank you for youe time.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    C

     

    N

     

     

    Wait can you clear up things and first start by explaining what the problem is?

    Whats a culling bug?

    Here are some screenshots of the near clipping plane culling bugs, which are the only culling bugs that are easy to screenshot.

    image

    As you can see from radar, I'm staring right at a wall.  You can actually see part of the wall in the lower left part of the screen.  But you can also see right through most of the wall, to other walls behind it, and even mobs and the sky far behind it.

    image

    On radar, it's not immediately obvious that I'm again staring at a wall.  But you can see part of the wall on the right side of the screen, as well as a bunch of stuff far behind the wall.

    image

    Again, on radar, it's pretty obvious that I'm staring right at a mountain.  And that I can see right through part of it.

    image

    On radar, you can again see that I'm staring right at a mountain.  You can only see the wall I'm up against in the lower right portion of the screen.  You can see some internal portions of the mountain that have no good reason to be there because it should never be possible to see them.  And you can also see the sky through a crack between those.

    What you can't see on that last screenshot is that there is also a distant tree behind the crack that you can see the sky through.  Rotating the camera a bit makes the tree disappear and reappear.  That's a different culling bug that you a single screenshot won't show, as the tree is either there or not--and if it's not there, then it's not obvious that it should be there.

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,987Member
    oh dam!i know what he talk about!its a setting issue,very simple to fix.it is related to the camera and disatance setting this happen only if you are too close to an out of bound object .say a wall or other object that are stationary ,i move away or turn and it fix the issue .but you are right this is one setting i wish they would tweak!lol,i didnt think it was what you wewre talking about !
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by drbaltazar
    oh dam!i know what he talk about!its a setting issue,very simple to fix.it is related to the camera and disatance setting this happen only if you are too close to an out of bound object .say a wall or other object that are stationary ,i move away or turn and it fix the issue .but you are right this is one setting i wish they would tweak!lol,i didnt think it was what you wewre talking about !

    In the above screenshots, I was right up against a wall with the camera at max zoom distance.  The near clipping plane only affects things that are close to the camera.

    But there are other culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 that show up for objects that aren't necessarily close to you.  I don't have screenshots of them because a screenshot doesn't really show the bug very well.  I suppose that I could make multiple screenshots of a screen that are identical except with a slightly rotated camera, and suddenly some things vanished.  But I haven't.

    Network-related culling bugs are much harder to reproduce, and screenshots don't really prove that anything is wrong.  A player who vanishes could have warped away.  Or just walked away with a long time gap between the screenshots.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon

    Isn't it obvious that culling is not an easy fix? They certainly would have addressed it in a patch by now if it was seeing as it is such a high profile issue. ( Actually they have done something it just doesn't, by users perception, seem to have changed much) . They have communicated with the players in a number of posts as to what the problem is and how they are trying to stage the fixes. Search the GW2 forums "culling" and you will find several ANET posts on the subject. Do you really think trying to client side interface debuging the code is going to give you the best idea of what is going on? Thats a pretty stone knife and bear skin approach. Not saying you cant make guesses just thats what it is guessing. (If I know the Linux OS inside and out it doesn't mean I can debug Windows issues from the user interface. )  ANET has claimed they have a plan. If you feel it should have been fixed by now (or never should have existed in the first place) then yes it is worse then you think. As to the half-baked partial fix stuff well time will tell. For right now, you could be right but your guess is as good as mine. (I don't have one)

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon

     

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Hooray for ad hominem attacks?

    No attacks, I just don't trust your ability to have any remotely valid opinion about what the ANet developers did with their engine, and saying it is not forbidden here from what I know. There's no insult, no attacks... just a serious and legitimate doubt about your real technical knowledge.

    Have you ever implemented culling in a 3D game engine--and not just licensed some off-the-shelf approach, but implemented your own from scratch?  Considered how collision detection for a camera has to be different from collision detection for players running into a wall?  Computed the maximum possible near plane clipping distance that was safe to avoid improper culling as a function of how your camera placement works, the size and shape of the game window, and the user-adjustable field of view constant?  Debated the relative merits of a signed area versus normal vector approaches to back face culling?  (If you've got geometry shaders, you can use either one, and don't have to rely on the fixed-function signed area approach.)  Carefully considered when it was safe to cull entire patches in tessellation control shaders (signed area never works here, and sometimes normal vectors don't, either)?  Tried manually setting the depth in fragment shaders rather than using the fixed-function depth buffer?  Figured out exactly why 3D graphics needs to use homogeneous coordinates in RP^3 rather than ordinary rectangular, cylindrical, or spherical coordinates in R^3?

    And as a result of all of that, seen a whole slew of client-side culling bugs that you've created and had to fix?

    Because I have.  And as a result, I recognize some of the culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 as things that I've done myself.

    I've been working for computer generated real time special effects for video and movie industries for over 15 years (actually started doing 3D on a Commodore Amiga if that tells you something), even though lately I'm working in other domains. I'm not saying you're wrong on some aspects, but you're mixing up apples and oranges. You've learned a lot of technical terms you mix up into a soup which may impress the random forum reader. The distance culling problem in GW2 has nothing to do with collision detection, or even with visibility culling (frustrum, contribution, occlusion, etc...). Additional proof, the screenshots you've posted have nothing to do with the WvsW "invisible entities" problem GW2 has, it's something totally different.

    And if the screenshots in your profile are any indication of what you ever did in 3D graphics, well... no big comment, I will just say the guys you critic the work of are a team of veteran professionals with several game engines in their resume.

    Originally posted by jpnz

    The irony when you post that the camera doesn't need collision detection.

    The camera colliding with the landscape and static items so that it doesn't end inside of the floor or a wall has NOTHING to do with distance culling. Nothing. And it definitely isn't even remotely linked to the World vs World "Culling problem" GW2 has, which is the main and only culling problem everybody is talking about.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Muntz

    Isn't it obvious that culling is not an easy fix? They certainly would have addressed it in a patch by now if it was seeing as it is such a high profile issue. ( Actually they have done something it just doesn't, by users perception, seem to have changed much) . They have communicated with the players in a number of posts as to what the problem is and how they are trying to stage the fixes. Search the GW2 forums "culling" and you will find several ANET posts on the subject. Do you really think trying to client side interface debuging the code is going to give you the best idea of what is going on? Thats a pretty stone knife and bear skin approach. Not saying you cant make guesses just thats what it is guessing. (If I know the Linux OS inside and out it doesn't mean I can debug Windows issues from the user interface. )  ANET has claimed they have a plan. If you feel it should have been fixed by now (or never should have existed in the first place) then yes it is worse then you think. As to the half-baked partial fix stuff well time will tell. For right now, you could be right but your guess is as good as mine. (I don't have one)

    I'm guessing that you didn't read my original post and won't read this reply.  Sure, that culling isn't yet fixed could be taken as evidence in itself that it's not easy to fix.

    But my post has a lot more details than that.  What's probably not obvious to most players is that there are at least three fundamentally different classes of culling bugs in the game that have nothing to do with each other.  And that at least one of them is caused by the way ArenaNet structured their model data being all wrong, on the basis that it will necessarily create rafts of culling bugs.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Hooray for ad hominem attacks?

    No attacks, I just don't trust your ability to have any remotely valid opinion about what the ANet developers did with their engine, and saying it is not forbidden here from what I know. There's no insult, no attacks... just a serious and legitimate doubt about your real technical knowledge.

    Have you ever implemented culling in a 3D game engine--and not just licensed some off-the-shelf approach, but implemented your own from scratch?  Considered how collision detection for a camera has to be different from collision detection for players running into a wall?  Computed the maximum possible near plane clipping distance that was safe to avoid improper culling as a function of how your camera placement works, the size and shape of the game window, and the user-adjustable field of view constant?  Debated the relative merits of a signed area versus normal vector approaches to back face culling?  (If you've got geometry shaders, you can use either one, and don't have to rely on the fixed-function signed area approach.)  Carefully considered when it was safe to cull entire patches in tessellation control shaders (signed area never works here, and sometimes normal vectors don't, either)?  Tried manually setting the depth in fragment shaders rather than using the fixed-function depth buffer?  Figured out exactly why 3D graphics needs to use homogeneous coordinates in RP^3 rather than ordinary rectangular, cylindrical, or spherical coordinates in R^3?

    And as a result of all of that, seen a whole slew of client-side culling bugs that you've created and had to fix?

    Because I have.  And as a result, I recognize some of the culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 as things that I've done myself.

    I've been working for computer generated real time special effects for video and movie industries for over 15 years (actually started doing 3D on a Commodore Amiga if that tells you something), even though lately I'm working in other domains. I'm not saying you're wrong on some aspects, but you're mixing up apples and oranges. You've learned a lot of technical terms you mix up into a soup which may impress the random forum reader. The distance culling problem in GW2 has nothing to do with collision detection, or even with visibility culling (frustrum, contribution, occlusion, etc...). Additional proof, the screenshots you've posted have nothing to do with the WvsW "invisible entities" problem GW2 has, it's something totally different.

    And if the screenshots in your profile are any indication of what you ever did in 3D graphics, well... no big comment, I will just say the guys you critic the work of are a team of veteran professionals with several game engines in their resume.

    Originally posted by jpnz

    The irony when you post that the camera doesn't need collision detection.

    The camera colliding with the landscape and static items so that it doesn't end inside of the floor or a wall has NOTHING to do with distance culling. Nothing.

    Try reading the original post. There are at least three entirely separate classes of culling bugs in the game with totally different causes.  Completely fixing one of them would probably leave the others unaffected entirely.  You seem to want to focus on just one particular culling bug, and then argue that any discussion of other culling bugs in the game is automatically wrong because it doesn't apply to the particular culling bug that you have in mind.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Muntz

    Isn't it obvious that culling is not an easy fix? They certainly would have addressed it in a patch by now if it was seeing as it is such a high profile issue. ( Actually they have done something it just doesn't, by users perception, seem to have changed much) . They have communicated with the players in a number of posts as to what the problem is and how they are trying to stage the fixes. Search the GW2 forums "culling" and you will find several ANET posts on the subject. Do you really think trying to client side interface debuging the code is going to give you the best idea of what is going on? Thats a pretty stone knife and bear skin approach. Not saying you cant make guesses just thats what it is guessing. (If I know the Linux OS inside and out it doesn't mean I can debug Windows issues from the user interface. )  ANET has claimed they have a plan. If you feel it should have been fixed by now (or never should have existed in the first place) then yes it is worse then you think. As to the half-baked partial fix stuff well time will tell. For right now, you could be right but your guess is as good as mine. (I don't have one)

    I'm guessing that you didn't read my original post and won't read this reply.  Sure, that culling isn't yet fixed could be taken as evidence in itself that it's not easy to fix.

    But my post has a lot more details than that.  What's probably not obvious to most players is that there are at least three fundamentally different classes of culling bugs in the game that have nothing to do with each other.  And that at least one of them is caused by the way ArenaNet structured their model data being all wrong, on the basis that it will necessarily create rafts of culling bugs.

    Guessing the key word of the post. 

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Try reading the original post. There are at least three entirely separate classes of culling bugs in the game with totally different causes.  Completely fixing one of them would probably leave the others unaffected entirely.  You seem to want to focus on just one particular culling bug, and then argue that any discussion of other culling bugs in the game is automatically wrong because it doesn't apply to the particular culling bug that you have in mind.

    That's precisely what's wrong with your original post. You mix up several different "problems".

    There is only ONE noteworthy "culling problem" in GW2, even though there definitely are several minor display bugs like in most if not all other 3D games. It's the "invisible entities" problem, notably in World vs World. Everything else is totally unrelated and only technical blah blah, in my country we say "trying to drown the fish". And that's a pure, 100% distance culling related problem, the order at which incoming entities are told being "in visible range" to the various clients in range and then loaded and displayed by those clients. There's no visibility culling involved, no camera clipping or collision either, no entity collisions either. Visibility culling due to obstacles between the viewer and the target only happen after the distance culling... and the distance culling bug (aka "invisible armies") happen even on totally flat terrain without any building or other object or entity blocking the sight.

    From the sound of your OP, one may think all the problems are related and therefore cannot be fixed. I call Shannanigans on that. The ANet guys actually gave some hints in their posts which confirm that.

    To make it short... you make a long post with an alarming title saying "culling bugs are bad and unlikely to ever be completely fixed". I don't agree at all. Those minor bugs most if not all games have, like the camera culling/collision problems, will most likely never get fixed because they are only a minor annoyance not worth developer time. But pretending that because of those minor bugs, the major problem can't be fixed is... nonsense.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    I assume that alpha + beta should have revealed the issues prior to release and another 6 months post-launch makes a significant amount of time without it being solved. This is why I personally don't think it will get solved anytime soon. It doesn't seem like a priority to them.

    Obviously we don't know how much time or money it will take them to fix it, but there is a limitation to every customer's patience when it comes to gamebreaking issues.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,806Member Uncommon

    The only way it would cost millions is if they have to build an engine from scratch using  hundreds of engineers.

    Having a couple of guys working on it exclusively for a few months won't be millions.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    On a technical focused thread like this, always look for who attacks the poster rather than the tech information / facts. If you know your stuff you don't have to attack just post the knowledge and see the other side squirm and try to attack you.

    I love that the pro-gw2 is classifying culling as a 'minor bug'. I guess Anet is lying then.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon

     

    Originally posted by jpnz
    On a technical focused thread like this, always look for who attacks the poster rather than the tech information / facts. If you know your stuff you don't have to attack just post the knowledge and see the other side squirm and try to attack you.

    I rather look for those who shout "ad hominem attacks" when someone just challenges their knowledge. When you really know what you're talking about, you don't have to cry wolf when someone challenges it. But to each his own agenda, I guess.

    riginally posted by jpnz

    I love that the pro-gw2 is classifying culling as a 'minor bug'. I guess Anet is lying then.

    I guess you have to learn to read and understand then... since nobody said "the" culling bug everybody knows about, the one affecting notably World vs World, was a minor bug. It's the mixing between minor details and that rather big problem that some people here, like me, disagree with.

    You may be unable to fix that scratch on your car's door without either replacing the part or at least redoing all the paint of that part, which will be expensive, that doesn't mean you can't fix the inability of your car to move just by putting some gasoline into it. The two are completely unrelated, just like the various issues the OP is talking about are.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • CacaphonyCacaphony Tacoma, WAPosts: 738Member


    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Agreed and so is the Loot nerfs/permaDR bug. They've had 4-5 months now to fix those and they still haven't done it yet. Been watching. There's a new forum post about the loot problem and the culling problem daily (and I do include the posts about how thieves need nerfing because they have omgwtfbbqstealth GASP in that count) people keep thinking its the class it's not. The only thing I keep seeing is them saying either the problems don't exist (as they do with the loot, thousands of people's experiences are wrong despite video and screenshot evidence to the contrary you see) or that they are endlessly looking into the problem (like they've done with culling.) Oh well onward to a game title that has better management methinks. So much for GW2.


    Bye then?
    /shrug


    You go on back to STO now, ya hear?

    By the way, how long did it take Cryptic to fix the Klingon cloaking bug with text popups?

    At least 10 months, right?

Sign In or Register to comment.