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So the video's "big idea" is three roles per class...(please god, someday let designers and players remember that there were, once, more than 3 roles)
Sounds great, unless you try to figure the odds that any given developer/company wants to work up, oh, a dozen tanking trees, a dozen healing trees, a dozen (three dozen?) dps trees.
The additional (multiplicative) work load required says "nope, not gonna happen that way".
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Yaevindusk I think the video could've been a bit more informative as to how he would go about it. Perhaps be more "bold" as he suggested the developers to be. In that, I'd just flat out say give the players the ability to switch to any of the three tanking, healing or DPS builds without the barrier such as gear or leveling up a new class to get in the way. If WoW wasn't such a loot based game, it would be as such as right now you can be anyone in the world, click a single button and instantly change what your class does. You are even able to change your talents in the field now. The only thing that prevents this is how you have to grind like a mad man/woman for the gear that would make that change useful (often times having to do what you no longer enjoy just to get the gear to do something that you think you would). If things were made so that stats were given special passives, or abilities to change (or add) to what a specific spec does, it would be a much more fluid system whereby you could be anything anytime you wanted to be in game. I know they experimented with this and spirit/int/agi etc. adding things to the class such as increased hit if you have one or some such (to alleviate gear problems when you switch to a role that doesn't use it), but I don't think they fleshed it out enough to be as useful as it could be. In FFXIV: A Realm Reborn they are bringing back the old FFXI system whereby one character is able to max every class in the game. Though some of the fundamental problems will still be present, as far as I can see. They are allowing you to switch any class no matter where you are in the world as this video suggests. Though there is a fundamental flaw that isn't accounted for when doing this. It's all about balance and what's the most useful. In the first version of FFXIV people were prtty much required to level both Paladins and Warriors if they wanted to tank; warriors were far more useful for the majority of the content, and still considered to be even after paladins were buffed. Though there were times that, to be considered a serious tank, you had to have both maxed and switch quickly in dungeons where speed was the key (efficiency speed groups). No longer could you play the class that you wanted, and instead you were just forced to play the strengths of the classes that were available since you didn't have to go back home to change them. Consider yourself a paladin? Too bad, you have to play warrior if you want to tank, and paladins are only good at tanking while warriors can deal out massive DPS in addition to. Enjoy melee fighting? Well, play with a linkshell that doesn't care about efficiency, because on this specific fight it's better if you're ranged. Want to just play a single class? Get out, newbie... we need you to switch to a class that can clear trash easily for this part. Play that class on your own time. I'm hoping they fix these problems in A Realm Reborn, as in practice they bring about new problems as a whole.
u cant blame the players only , the devs need to fix the imbalances melee vs ranged, Warrior vs Paladin , ect
some jobs are better than others in some areas , in Rift for example for trash , the caster with electric spells was just awesome in AOE , and for bosses i went warlock , i didnt mind changing specs, if its faster ... trash is trash anyway , aoe spam and done.
i enjoyed both so i dont mind!
same goes for FF , i played as nin , sam , rng , smn , and LS asked me to come as X job , i leveled those jobs because i enjoyed playing it as 1 , if u dont feel like playing ranged ,dont lvl blm / ranger so u arent forced to change
im going to lvl arcanist in FFXIV and is going to be my main job , if i enjoy it of course , but having carby ! ,t gonna level warrior/paladin too, so i can go tank or dps (guess arcanist is going to be dps maybe is a healer >< we dont know anything yet)
my point is , u play what class u enjoy if ppl wan to group with u ok , else look for another group !
the old stigma that X class is so gimped that no1 want to group with is so 2005 (drg in FFXI , some classes in wow vanilla-tbc) but look how mmorpgs are now is rare to see something like that
Originally posted by Kaneth The fallacy in this thought though, is that people WILL switch to the missing role when needed. Take WoW for example. With both of the previously added classes, Death Knight and Monk, both have tanking roles. Blizzard also added dual-spec options. So you're at a point where you have 5/11 classes have tanking specs, and yet there still is a tank shortage. Yes, you have to obtain gear for your secondary spec, but it's not that difficult to get a workable set of gear while you are perfecting your set for your main role. The biggest problem with the Trinity, is people. If a group wipes on a boss, tanks and healers are the first to be blamed everytime. Even if the wipe is caused by some DPS doing something very wrong, the tank and healer take the first amount of blame. Tanking and healing have a greater inhereted responsiblity within the dynamic of a group, and frankly that's not a responsibility many folks want in this vicious and vindictive internet we have now. Additionally, if you made it so that any one could be anything at any given time, then you would open up a whole new can of worms with people whining about how there are no consequences to your choices. When I play GW2, I don't have to wait for a tank or healer to show up. I don't have to sit around for hours tryng to come up with the perfect assembly of classes to complete a specific task. Frankly, I prefer the way ANet did it, even with it's imperfections. The trinity isn't a bad design in many regards, but it breaks down more easily than a more open system.
I think the problem with tank shortages also has to do with guild and raid structure. A guild will have hundreds of dps, dozens of healers, but only one or two main tanks. This is a huge incentive killer for focusing on your tanking spec. Why bother, there is little to no chance you will get a slot doing what you want to do at the highest level - so people instead focus on something obtainable.
Geez, one new MMO gets rid of the trinity and all of a sudden we have to rally to save it from extinction?
The trinity isnt going anywhere, some people like it, some people dont. The people that don't like it now have a game that acoomodates to them. Why is this such an issue?
Originally posted by Vesavius Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.
Dependence is Dependence and there is nothing good about it. small defined roles were created so bad players can be good, it was meant to expand the games to a larger audience.
A good player can play any way he is allowed and they sure as hell dont need a role that has you sitting there pressing a few buttons to play his small "role" in a group...its the very reason why so many people hate GW2, they cant wrap their heads around being able to DPS, Tank, Heal, CC, Buff and Debuff all with the same character and do it all in the same battle. Its just too much for them because they cant break the limits placed on them by the trinity.
Bunker elementalist forever!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I just can't throw support behind backing up the 3 roll standard.
I still greatly miss the roles we have lost.
My favorite role to play was always CC, follwed closely by a Puller.
Games just became so simple that the tactics that justified these roles inclusion are not even needed.
In short, do not fix the trinity...return to us the roles we lost.
Originally posted by Elfahiar Kaneth wrote: "The biggest problem with the Trinity, is people. If a group wipes on a boss, tanks and healers are the first to be blamed everytime. Even if the wipe is caused by some DPS doing something very wrong, the tank and healer take the first amount of blame. Tanking and healing have a greater inhereted responsiblity within the dynamic of a group, and frankly that's not a responsibility many folks want in this vicious and vindictive internet we have now." Man you are my hero, couldn't have said it better myself!
One of the reasons, why I, a casual gamer are fearful of dungeon PUGs with people I don't know.
Originally posted by jtcgs Originally posted by Vesavius Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.
I am just not so extreme in this as you obviously are, and nor do I want to reduce this debate to 'roles are for noobs'.
I enjoy strong roles because every game I have played that didn't have a heavy use of them (mainly CoH and GW2) the play has been zergy and frustrating, especially when dealing with PUGs.
I get that you are looking at this from a 'pro' viewpoint, but these games *have* to look at a wider audience than the top 10% (or whatever). That's just being realistic. The 'larger audience' is probably why you even have games at this point to say that are 'too easy'.
I do not accept that roles equal 'easy mode' though, not by defintion anyhow.
Originally posted by Praetalus .. I recently played gw2 and to be honest, I hated it. I didn't find it fun and felt like everyone was just running around like crazy bastards unleashing attacks....
I actively play GW2 and I totally agree I've had this feeling as well (of course I've had the same feeling running Alerts recently in DCUO). Perhaps part of it is that the MMO community has changed? Doing pick-up group type of activities no one seems to "chat" or actually formulate a plan of attack or take a "vocal" lead.. especially for content peeps have run a few times. I might do this myself but I tend to be the "newbie" in these content areas.
Originally posted by Skuall
Not so much in FFXIV. If you wanted to be a part of an efficient speed group to get points, and you were a tank, you absolutely had to have both Paladin and Warrior leveled. In addition, most of the time they wanted you to at least be double melded. The problem with FFXIV when compared to FFXI is that in FFXI you had to find a moogle to change classes. Here it's on the fly. In addition, when refering to Rift, we're talking about a single class that is able to become what that class can logically be. Whether it's a warlock or another type of caster, you're still essentially or at least have the flavor of that initial class choice at the beginning.
With FFXIV it's completely different. You're able to switch entire classes, and not just specializations that are still at their core what that class is all about. If talking about WoW, and you're a paladin, there is the choice of a Tank Spec. A DPS Spec. and a Healing spec.; but at the very core of it you are still what you wanted to be: A Paladin. The lights, the visuals, the way the attacks feel, the resource system... it's all roughly the same. Whereas in FFXIV you switch classes out entirely, every ability is deleted and replaced, the visuals are different, the weapon choices, the style of combat... even the artifact armor. It's all completely gone just so you can become more efficient.
Granted with the implementation of a potential dungeon finder system people won't be as picky, but organized speed run groups will be. These will be the groups that get equipment the fastest and basically dominate the game in every way. It's in part the whole "get what you put into it", but still with the problem that you aren't your own class -- you're just a character that's a jack of all trades that can adapt to any situation. In FFXI I primarily considered myself a Paladin. In WoW, I'm whatever class I am for that expansion (and the specs. therein). But in FFXIV? I just feel like a mercenary of sorts with no class to define myself. Just an "adventurer" as they put it.
It really hurts if you like enjoying just one class and don't want to play any others, but are needed to by people. In addition, with the ability to switch so readily, people might even start asking others to switch even after a group is made. Indeed, and can you imagine simply lying to people who are in your group about what you do and don't have leveled just because you don't want to play another class? One should be proud of what they've accomplished, not hiding behind things so they just aren't subjected to other's viewpoints on the matter at hand.
only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW
Originally posted by evilastro Geez, one new MMO gets rid of the trinity and all of a sudden we have to rally to save it from extinction? The trinity isnt going anywhere, some people like it, some people dont. The people that don't like it now have a game that acoomodates to them. Why is this such an issue?
Basically this. People say that all mmos are the same. When an mmo tries something different they are bad and should stick to what has been done before.
Besides that gW2 has roles. Here look: a tank in GW2. It works differently but it's there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_bIqwtB-fw
Personally I actually miss the days of "Quad"inity? Yeah, not just trinity but when we actually had 4 Roles in any good group. Oldschool EQ we had your typical Tank Heal and DPS but on top of that you had to have a Support class to, typically a shaman or enchanter, for mob debuffs (mainly slows) and/or cc. Groups were 6 man so made it little easier since you still get 2 DPS in there even with that 4th role to fill. When you add on top of that the vastly superior number of available classes to any modern day mmo out there the game was just far more flexibile and fun imo.
I recently started playing Vanguard which is also oldschool and the same people who started EQ and boy am I having a blast. 19 Races and 15 Classes to choose from is something I've seriously missed over the years as well as the ability to play a support/dps class.
They didnt have a taunt or "aggro", but standing on front and dishing out damage was pretty much what a tank was for. They served the same purpose.
You had your healer, your big damage dealers and your warrior, that had a ton of health and survived most melee attackers with ease.
Doesnt matter the mechanics behind the system, the trinity was there.
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph no trinity = easy game mode/asocial game mode
Trinity - EASY ASS MODE - Anti-social game. Using the Trinity DOES NOT make the game social. Everyone knows there roles and someone barks out orders - there is no social aspect to the game at all.
I have played games with the trinity and find them JUST AS anti-social as games without them. Forced grouping does not make a game social - people make the game social.
If you have to have game mechanics to be social in an MMO - go play Skyrim please.
"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum
I disagree; it is my experience that a well coordinated group on any MMO makes for a much more experience than any GW2 dungeon run. Every single GW2 dungeon run I've gone on, whether with experienced guildmates or a PUG always feels like an uncoordinated mess even when you DO have coordination.
Having no way of attracting a MOB's attention is the biggest issue with dungeon running. Say that you are in a group and one of your mates goes down (Which in GW2 is every fight, it's part of the design, that's fine, I like that actually) there's no way for you to get the MOB away from the downed player or the one trying to revive them. You have to rely almost completely on luck.
I think it would be a lot more fun if once a player goes down I could briefly taunt the MOB away from them to allow for someone else to revive them and get them back in the fight. Especially since as a Mace + Shield Warrior I am perfectly capable of going toe to toe with any MOB for a long period of time without dying, effectively tanking, the problem is that there is no way for me to hold the MOB's attention on me no matter how well I'm fighting it.
Originally posted by fdisk81 Originally posted by jtcgs Originally posted by Vesavius Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.
I have found it the exact opposite - every 'supposed' trinity group is a mess. I have run GW2 dungeons and while they can be a little chaotic, I have found them more fun than ANY TRINITY game I have played.
Originally posted by botrytis Originally posted by Agent_Joseph no trinity = easy game mode/asocial game mode
I've never understood this reasoning. I made a lot of "friends" in Guild Wars 2 while running around questing, yet I never spoke again with anyone who I ran a dungeon with, yet in WoW when I did a kick ass job tanking an instance I would often get people adding me to their friends' lists because it's hard to find a good tank.
I never saw the social aspect of dungeon running to be honest, trinity or not it boils down to:
1) Get to the boss/encounter.
2) Discuss boss/encounter strategy.
3) Rinse and repeat.
4) Thank people for the group and move on to the next.
How is that social? Just using the chat feature to discuss an encounter doesn't make you "social"
The only time I am social in MMOs is on Guild Chat, I always make sure to join a popular Guild first thing when I play a game, then make friends and talk on guild chat, run dungeons etc. In Guild Wars 2 the only time I've been social in a dungeon is when I'm running it with people from my guild who I've already developed a friendship with through being on the same guild...
No thank you Bill, leave the trinity games the way they’ve always been and allow non-trinity to evolve on its own. People choose roles in a trinity for that reason rather than a jack of all trades class model and non-trinity for just the opposite. Having different flavors of gameplay is what it’s all about. I for one do not want to play the same combat model for another 10 years and truly believe there are more ways to play the game. The usual copy and paste mmo is getting old let the devs use their creative insights into something new.
Originally posted by mikuniman No thank you Bill, leave the trinity games the way they’ve always been and allow non-trinity to evolve on its own. People choose roles in a trinity for that reason rather than a jack of all trades class model and non-trinity for just the opposite. Having different flavors of gameplay is what it’s all about. I for one do not want to play the same combat model for another 10 years and truly believe there are more ways to play the game. The usual copy and paste mmo is getting old let the devs use their creative insights into something new.
This is a good point, even though I'm a trinity player and I LOVE everything else about Guild Wars 2 I have no right in asking for them to change the game just to cater to me.
Thanks to playing Guild Wars 2 I realized how much I love being a tank and just a tank; even though I absolutely love everything else about the game (Lore, Graphics, Music, World, Atmosphere) and as much as it pains me to do so I think I'll just move on to the next game and stop playing it altogether.
I definitely got my $60 worth already and whenever I miss it I can go back to it and solo play another class 1-80 since to be honest I only really like it as a single player game at this point. Once a new expansion comes out I will buy it, solo it once again and then put the game back in the shelf until the next content update. I can live with that, that's the beauty of it not having a monthly fee; I don't feel guilty for not playing it.
Thanks for putting it in perspective.
Amen, brother! Were you reading my mind again, Bill!
I was just telling my guildmates in GW2 how I can't wait for Neverwinter and that I miss the Holy Trinity!
In GW2 it is more of an every man for themselves mentality. I don't need you -- I can tank! I don't need you either -- I can heal, as well!
Aside from PvP and WvW, GW2 encourages players to do everything themselves and I hate that! At that point, you might as well be playing a single-player game rather than an MMO. And, like others have stated, GW2 is a DPS fest!
Don't get me wrong, like you, I also believe there is a lot to like about GW2, but I severly miss the desire to group. Due to GW2's approach, I can't recall ever playing an MMO where players were so independent and anti-social.
You can run into an event, bag-em and tag-em, then leave without saying as much as a hello to anyone.
You can forget about players waiting around to level characters with friends. Just like our society in RL, there's an 'It's all about me' mentality in GW2, as well and it sucks!
I play MMOs for the simple reason that I enjoy being part of a group and love accomplishing things as a team.
I'm so looking forward to Neverwinter and the group mechanic it brings with it!
Your fail comment, failed.
A great game design would be:
Non-Quest System - GW2
Class Balance and roles - EQ
Crafting - SWG
Housing - Rift
PVP - DAoC
All set in the Planescape universe.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIVHave played: You name itIf you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
I do not agree with anything you have said... with the exception of the Bunker elementalist... only because I have no clue what the hell that means? What dat mean?
You spoke earlier of players saying.. Look mom, I'm leet... or something like that... Is this your way of doing the same thing?
So Bill mentioned wanted every class to be able to do every role. I think this would be very easy to accomplish in a wow/swtor manner as long as the majority of role specific abilities where tied to the trees and locked out when not playing that role. I'll give some examples. I will control / cc as I think every class should have a form of it available But limit it usefulness to different targets, like Swtor
Warrior- basic defender tank, basic dpi build, uses inspire abilities to "heal" the party, like a warlord in d&d 4.0
rouge- normal rogue stuff for dps, uses salves and potions to heal, evasion tank with things like dirty tricks, shadow dance, distraction, and the like to maintain agro.
Elements list wizard- uses every element to nuke like normal, for tanking focuses on defense magics ice shields, make copies of himself to intercept party members, stuff like that. For healing, uses Phoenix magic and frost magic to help heal players or freeze condition effects.
monk, Druid, and clerics can follow the wow format, but with more flavor and distractions when in those class roles.
My point is, if thought about hard enough, every class could fill the trinity roles if enou thought was given to their skill set within each role without breaking class emmersion/ aesthetic feel.