Night all. Heading home and to bed me thinks. It's been a long day at work. Cya.
MJ / CSE
Thank you for posting in these forums, your effort and humbleness is greatly appreciated.
Also, thank you for DAoC. It nearly ruined my life, in the best way possible. I'm blessed to have lived at the era when such epic emotions and experience could become reality without it actually being reality and thus mostly fatal.
Kickstarter is awesome new way to gauge market interest for projects, especially in the niche / online service / entertainment market. Judging from the initial response it would seem from the hype levels that you will do absolutely fine reaching the goal. I would personally like to - and I'm aware of at least handfull of others - actually invest to your company directly as part of our meager small investor budgets. Is there any plans for an IPO yet? Could CSE consider alternative methods of receiving investment money, with a chance of realization of profits?
We who know your work from earlier days used to be just gamers, now 13 years later we are adults, with adult understanding of economics, and adult wallets. If you know what I mean.
I wish all the best for you in this campaign. Undoubtedly it will be beyond amazing.
DAoC - 00-06 - And every now and then WoW - Online since launch - and now back again. EVE - Online since 07 - and still on, and on, and on.. WHO - Online 08-10 LOTR-O - Online 06-08 Also played : Asherons Call, EverQuest, EQ2, Dungeons & Dragons, Cabal, Dark & Light, GW, GW2, LA2, Ryzom, Shaiya, SWG, Allods, Forsaken World, ArcheAge, Secret World, Darkfall, Rift, ESO, Tera.
I think what is really interesting here is that people complain about having to pay $50, $60 and up to $100 for a game, but are willing to dump as much as $1000's into a project to create a game that -
a, may never see the light of day. (yes I know you may get your money back)
b, have no idea what the end result of the game will be.
c, may play it for a month before moving onto another game they consider better.
3 things of the top of my head others may be able to add to it. Not knocking the idea of kickstarter, I think its a good thing.
A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?
It doesn't compute. If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.
But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back. The whole thing seems off to me.
Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed. If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.
Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing. For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.
Not read the entire thread as I dont have the time but just wanted to respond to this.
He would have an issue securing funding as most investors are looking for massive returns.. they want wow numbers not numbers that a niche game like this would get..
Plus I believe this is the first game this company has made, sure the people working for the company have done a lot of games but the company itself is new I believe.
So gonig with kickstarter for some initial funds totally makes sense, once they can show potential investors that there are people out there who actually want this type of game and not a wow clone then they will be more willing to invest some cash.
Plus of course you dont have to support the kickstarter campaign at all, you can jsut sit back and wait for the game to be finished and then buy it.. they are not holding a gun to your head and forcing anyone to support them. Its totally your choice.
I know ill back the game thats for sure as I really like what the guy is saying, i wont put silly amounts of cash into it jsut enough to get a digital copy of the game or whatever, but im sure others will be willing to pledge a lot more.
In it's simplest form... Kickstarter allows a developer more freedom and community interaction to future proof a game and keep it's initial focus and intended goals intact.
Having worked before in the console industry I can tell you for a fact that when you have a major parent/publishing company backing your project that it has great potential to go out of your hands quickly. One game I assisted on was truly a beauty of a game on our concept table. However, once our funding was passed for continued development we were presented with marketing numbers and "suggestions" which completely altered and butchered the game. The game was even held up in litigation over basically "licensing defamation" because of the "suggestions" we had to use. We were not happy with the game and expressed our desires to rework it many times, but we were overruled and the game was shoved out to the presses to become an abyssmal failure.
I think what is really interesting here is that people complain about having to pay $50, $60 and up to $100 for a game, but are willing to dump as much as $1000's into a project to create a game that -
a, may never see the light of day. (yes I know you may get your money back)
b, have no idea what the end result of the game will be.
c, may play it for a month before moving onto another game they consider better.
3 things of the top of my head others may be able to add to it. Not knocking the idea of kickstarter, I think its a good thing.
Choice matters - it really is that simple. No one is forced to back this game, but you can choose to. What many critics - not saying you are - don´t understand or at least seem to forget, is that supporting this game during the kickstarter campaign will give me something in return. I´m not talking money here, but
1) A higher chance, that the game actually is going to be made
2) The possiblity to become a part of the developement from scratch.
Those are viable reasons you shouldn´t leave out of the equation. Of course I could take my money and just buy a game, that actually has been made. Or I could support a game, that has a bigger budget or more to show already. But as I said in the beginning: Choice matters!
I´m not interested in those other games out there. None of them really seem to offer enough to satisfy me, so I choose to support a vision, that up to now comes very close to what I´m looking for right now. If I decide not to back this game I would reduce the chances to even see, whether or not it could become "my game".
And personally - especially since I´m going to work in the gaming industry myself - its somewhat of a perk to get in touch with Mark and his team really early and be a part of the whole developement process.
I know, some critics here are assuming CSE won´t listen to us anyway - but thats something I choose not to believe. Right now I trust Mark and I believe in his vision. Thats enough for me to back the game, even though or maybe especially because its a chance I take.
Why wouldn't a dev use kickstarter in this day and age?
The design principles are being completely outlined for the public, who then gets to decide if it is worth pursuing.
Its a lot better than getting another flawed MMO with featues that nobody wants and only has a month's worth of content get shoved down out throates via hype and marketing.
Say what you will about Warhammer Online, It's still my second most played MMO after DAOC.
I had fun with it, It wasn't DAOC2....However I got my money's worth out of that game.
So did I but I don't consider that a very high bar to clear for a game. Being worth box price and a few months subscription is the bare minimum that should be expected of an MMO. WAR was that and nothing more for me. I expect they are aiming to achieve a better result than that for CU.
Why wouldn't a dev use kickstarter in this day and age?
The design principles are being completely outlined for the public, who then gets to decide if it is worth pursuing.
Its a lot better than getting another flawed MMO with featues that nobody wants and only has a month's worth of content get shoved down out throates via hype and marketing.
I think it's interesting how some players have complained about "the suits" making the money decisions or "greedy investors" but all of a sudden the money decisions (some money decisions) are put into the hands of interested people and suddenly it's not worth it.
Well, folks, this is why people who invest "real" money and "lots of real money" tend to want to see results and results that will get them a return.
Because it's their money!
Kickstarter does allow people to invest something into these ventures and yes there are risks.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
To me, Kickstarter funding is a bit shady. You put money into it and hope that you get some additional access to the game and beta......that's it. You have no basic rights like a shareholder. You don't get a return on your investment should the game be a success.
So, you pay for beta, which may or may not happen.
Hmmm, i'd rather just be an investor in the company than somebody who funds a kickstarter campaign. But, to each their own.
Pretty crappy that developers need to sink that low.
You want us to make a game we would make anyway? Give us some free money then....
It isn't like they wouldn't be making the game regardless.
If you donate to it you are helping make this an industry standard. ALL inventors of any company making a game like it will require the free money before approving future games.
to people saying "oh but its in the ToS, they are responsible if they don't deliver"
Can Kickstarter refund the money if a project is unable to fulfill?
No. Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds, as transactions are between backers and the creator. In fact, Kickstarter never has the funds at all. When a project is successfully funded, money is transferred directly from backers' credit cards to the project creator's Amazon Payments account. It's up to the creator to issue a refund, which they can do through their Amazon Payments account. (Like PayPal, Amazon Payments allows refunds for 60 days from the date of charge. After 60 days, creators cannot reverse the same charge to backers' credit cards, so to issue refunds they'll need to initiate a new transaction to send money via Amazon Payments or PayPal, send backers a check, or use another method. Our support team has guided creators in how to issue refunds like these before.)
In other words, good luck getting your money back. Want to take the project creator to court? Fine, hire a lawyer to get back your 50 bucks.
Because class action law suits don' exist right? Oh, wait...
Pretty crappy that developers need to sink that low.
You want us to make a game we would make anyway? Give us some free money then....
It isn't like they wouldn't be making the game regardless.
If you donate to it you are helping make this an industry standard. ALL inventors of any company making a game like it will require the free money before approving future games.
Actually they woun't make the game is the kickstarter failes...
you can keep feeding the mediocre mmo machine or u can give a leap of faith towards creativity. the machine are 10 yearrs running up... make ur choice.
A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?
It doesn't compute.
It does compute.
DaoC wasnt big, it was average in terms of player size. It was meant to be a newer EQ with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and it barely was 1/3rd as popular. It was also the first MMO with massive in game player protests. Now jump to Warhammer, it was supposed to be DaoC with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and...yep, lost most of its players in under a year because it wasnt.
The industry doesnt want to back him because...wait for it, he wants to make another DaoC type game with ooh ahh, advanced cutting edge gameplay.
Much like Raph Koster, the industry took a while but finally learned that he doesnt live up to his hype and his ideas arent really great.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by ShakyMo Lol the spouting of bullshit never ceases.
P.s. daoc is still running, Mr fosters game got shutdown
Ultima Online and EverQuest 2 are still running.
P.S. Its Koster not Foster.
P.S.S Loved how you didnt refute anything directly
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?
It doesn't compute. If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.
But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back. The whole thing seems off to me.
Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed. If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.
Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing. For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.
First Mark is a big name in game development history, but his new company is not. He is putting money into CU if the KS goal is hit. He is using KS to judge player interest. Think of it as a straw poll. If the public proves they want the game 60% or more of the total money will come from Mark and his other investors. If KS goal doesn't get reached then it will not be made because the public had shown there isn't enough interest.
Trion was able to get MAJOR funding for a startup company.
Yeah, by making a point for point shameless shallow WoW clone.
Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones.
Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones.
True.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Pretty crappy that developers need to sink that low.
You want us to make a game we would make anyway? Give us some free money then....
It isn't like they wouldn't be making the game regardless.
If you donate to it you are helping make this an industry standard. ALL inventors of any company making a game like it will require the free money before approving future games.
Actually they woun't make the game is the kickstarter failes...
Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.
I need the Kickstarter to fund to prove to the other investors (and to myself) that I'm not just this grumpy old game guy who thinks he has a good idea but nobody wants to play the game but a few other old school gamers. Our KS will be the proof of interest from our target market.
Mark
This basically proves what I replied.
Mark you probably should not be on here discussing your game, no offense. You are going to get quoted all over the place . Plus, people will read into it. Myself, when I see a lead dev in a place like this it makes me think the guy is going to be playing the game and picking favorites.
Do you guys really want ALL games to do this?
Mark (hah funny pun) my words, this will be the new way for investors to test potential game ideas. The whole new proof of concept (a saying Darkfall's AV likes to toss around). Plus, free starting capital.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by strangiato2112
A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?
It doesn't compute.
It does compute.
DaoC wasnt big, it was average in terms of player size. It was meant to be a newer EQ with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and it barely was 1/3rd as popular. It was also the first MMO with massive in game player protests. Now jump to Warhammer, it was supposed to be DaoC with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and...yep, lost most of its players in under a year because it wasnt.
The industry doesnt want to back him because...wait for it, he wants to make another DaoC type game with ooh ahh, advanced cutting edge gameplay.
Much like Raph Koster, the industry took a while but finally learned that he doesnt live up to his hype and his ideas arent really great.
Actually, DAoC had 250K subs at peak, EQ had 450K subs at peak. And as you know, we developed DAoC in 18 months at 2.5M vs 3 years at Sony and at a much great expense. And of course, DAoC is still running as is EQ, when so many other MMORPGs aren't, as subscription-based games or in many cases, not running at all and/or never launched.
As to most of the rest, well, you are entitled to your opinion of course.
A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?
It doesn't compute.
It does compute.
DaoC wasnt big, it was average in terms of player size. It was meant to be a newer EQ with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and it barely was 1/3rd as popular. It was also the first MMO with massive in game player protests. Now jump to Warhammer, it was supposed to be DaoC with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and...yep, lost most of its players in under a year because it wasnt.
The industry doesnt want to back him because...wait for it, he wants to make another DaoC type game with ooh ahh, advanced cutting edge gameplay.
Much like Raph Koster, the industry took a while but finally learned that he doesnt live up to his hype and his ideas arent really great.
Actually, DAoC had 250K subs at peak, EQ had 450K subs at peak. And as you know, we developed DAoC in 18 months at 2.5M vs 3 years at Sony and at a much great expense. And of course, DAoC is still running as is EQ, when so many other MMORPGs aren't, as subscription-based games.
As to most of the rest, well, you are entitled to your opinion of course.
I agree with this a good sub game that actually lives up to expectations will do fine even today , look at wow its fine and old as crude. They still use the same ol graphics models from 2004 and they never divert from their end game at all. Its dailys , heroics, and raiding nothing else and they continue to rack in the cash.
I think this free to play argument is based on games that just never did that well to begin with. Id much rather pay a sub fee and contribute to a kickstarter for a game I enjoy playing instead of some huge cash shop that basically makes you sutlily buy from them to keep up with your guild members or buddies if you have limited playtime like games like guild wars 2. If you look at all the games out there that have converted to buy to play and free to play none of them really held a candle to older games in terms of size of the worlds , amount of classes , and end game content. A good game that is niche and is sub based still holds a market here even today , the game just has to been done exactly how its sold and there will be no issues I think.
Comments
MJ / CSE
Thank you for posting in these forums, your effort and humbleness is greatly appreciated.
Also, thank you for DAoC. It nearly ruined my life, in the best way possible. I'm blessed to have lived at the era when such epic emotions and experience could become reality without it actually being reality and thus mostly fatal.
Kickstarter is awesome new way to gauge market interest for projects, especially in the niche / online service / entertainment market. Judging from the initial response it would seem from the hype levels that you will do absolutely fine reaching the goal. I would personally like to - and I'm aware of at least handfull of others - actually invest to your company directly as part of our meager small investor budgets. Is there any plans for an IPO yet? Could CSE consider alternative methods of receiving investment money, with a chance of realization of profits?
We who know your work from earlier days used to be just gamers, now 13 years later we are adults, with adult understanding of economics, and adult wallets. If you know what I mean.
I wish all the best for you in this campaign. Undoubtedly it will be beyond amazing.
DAoC - 00-06 - And every now and then
WoW - Online since launch - and now back again.
EVE - Online since 07 - and still on, and on, and on..
WHO - Online 08-10
LOTR-O - Online 06-08
Also played : Asherons Call, EverQuest, EQ2, Dungeons & Dragons, Cabal, Dark & Light, GW, GW2, LA2, Ryzom, Shaiya, SWG, Allods, Forsaken World, ArcheAge, Secret World, Darkfall, Rift, ESO, Tera.
I think what is really interesting here is that people complain about having to pay $50, $60 and up to $100 for a game, but are willing to dump as much as $1000's into a project to create a game that -
a, may never see the light of day. (yes I know you may get your money back)
b, have no idea what the end result of the game will be.
c, may play it for a month before moving onto another game they consider better.
3 things of the top of my head others may be able to add to it. Not knocking the idea of kickstarter, I think its a good thing.
Not read the entire thread as I dont have the time but just wanted to respond to this.
He would have an issue securing funding as most investors are looking for massive returns.. they want wow numbers not numbers that a niche game like this would get..
Plus I believe this is the first game this company has made, sure the people working for the company have done a lot of games but the company itself is new I believe.
So gonig with kickstarter for some initial funds totally makes sense, once they can show potential investors that there are people out there who actually want this type of game and not a wow clone then they will be more willing to invest some cash.
Plus of course you dont have to support the kickstarter campaign at all, you can jsut sit back and wait for the game to be finished and then buy it.. they are not holding a gun to your head and forcing anyone to support them. Its totally your choice.
I know ill back the game thats for sure as I really like what the guy is saying, i wont put silly amounts of cash into it jsut enough to get a digital copy of the game or whatever, but im sure others will be willing to pledge a lot more.
In it's simplest form... Kickstarter allows a developer more freedom and community interaction to future proof a game and keep it's initial focus and intended goals intact.
Having worked before in the console industry I can tell you for a fact that when you have a major parent/publishing company backing your project that it has great potential to go out of your hands quickly. One game I assisted on was truly a beauty of a game on our concept table. However, once our funding was passed for continued development we were presented with marketing numbers and "suggestions" which completely altered and butchered the game. The game was even held up in litigation over basically "licensing defamation" because of the "suggestions" we had to use. We were not happy with the game and expressed our desires to rework it many times, but we were overruled and the game was shoved out to the presses to become an abyssmal failure.
Bear "replicant" Powell
"I am Shaolin-Style!"
Choice matters - it really is that simple. No one is forced to back this game, but you can choose to. What many critics - not saying you are - don´t understand or at least seem to forget, is that supporting this game during the kickstarter campaign will give me something in return. I´m not talking money here, but
1) A higher chance, that the game actually is going to be made
2) The possiblity to become a part of the developement from scratch.
Those are viable reasons you shouldn´t leave out of the equation. Of course I could take my money and just buy a game, that actually has been made. Or I could support a game, that has a bigger budget or more to show already. But as I said in the beginning: Choice matters!
I´m not interested in those other games out there. None of them really seem to offer enough to satisfy me, so I choose to support a vision, that up to now comes very close to what I´m looking for right now. If I decide not to back this game I would reduce the chances to even see, whether or not it could become "my game".
And personally - especially since I´m going to work in the gaming industry myself - its somewhat of a perk to get in touch with Mark and his team really early and be a part of the whole developement process.
I know, some critics here are assuming CSE won´t listen to us anyway - but thats something I choose not to believe. Right now I trust Mark and I believe in his vision. Thats enough for me to back the game, even though or maybe especially because its a chance I take.
Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/
Say what you will about Warhammer Online, It's still my second most played MMO after DAOC.
I had fun with it, It wasn't DAOC2....However I got my money's worth out of that game.
Why wouldn't a dev use kickstarter in this day and age?
The design principles are being completely outlined for the public, who then gets to decide if it is worth pursuing.
Its a lot better than getting another flawed MMO with featues that nobody wants and only has a month's worth of content get shoved down out throates via hype and marketing.
So did I but I don't consider that a very high bar to clear for a game. Being worth box price and a few months subscription is the bare minimum that should be expected of an MMO. WAR was that and nothing more for me. I expect they are aiming to achieve a better result than that for CU.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
I think it's interesting how some players have complained about "the suits" making the money decisions or "greedy investors" but all of a sudden the money decisions (some money decisions) are put into the hands of interested people and suddenly it's not worth it.
Well, folks, this is why people who invest "real" money and "lots of real money" tend to want to see results and results that will get them a return.
Because it's their money!
Kickstarter does allow people to invest something into these ventures and yes there are risks.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
To me, Kickstarter funding is a bit shady. You put money into it and hope that you get some additional access to the game and beta......that's it. You have no basic rights like a shareholder. You don't get a return on your investment should the game be a success.
So, you pay for beta, which may or may not happen.
Hmmm, i'd rather just be an investor in the company than somebody who funds a kickstarter campaign. But, to each their own.
I agree that it is an obvious money grab.
Pretty crappy that developers need to sink that low.
You want us to make a game we would make anyway? Give us some free money then....
It isn't like they wouldn't be making the game regardless.
If you donate to it you are helping make this an industry standard. ALL inventors of any company making a game like it will require the free money before approving future games.
Because class action law suits don' exist right? Oh, wait...
Actually they woun't make the game is the kickstarter failes...
It does compute.
DaoC wasnt big, it was average in terms of player size. It was meant to be a newer EQ with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and it barely was 1/3rd as popular. It was also the first MMO with massive in game player protests. Now jump to Warhammer, it was supposed to be DaoC with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and...yep, lost most of its players in under a year because it wasnt.
The industry doesnt want to back him because...wait for it, he wants to make another DaoC type game with ooh ahh, advanced cutting edge gameplay.
Much like Raph Koster, the industry took a while but finally learned that he doesnt live up to his hype and his ideas arent really great.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
P.s. daoc is still running, Mr fosters game got shutdown
Ultima Online and EverQuest 2 are still running.
P.S. Its Koster not Foster.
P.S.S Loved how you didnt refute anything directly
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Yeah, by making a point for point shameless shallow WoW clone.
Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones.
Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.
True.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
No offense, but I find that laughable....
That's because it hasn't started yet.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
This basically proves what I replied.
Mark you probably should not be on here discussing your game, no offense. You are going to get quoted all over the place
. Plus, people will read into it. Myself, when I see a lead dev in a place like this it makes me think the guy is going to be playing the game and picking favorites.
Do you guys really want ALL games to do this?
Mark (hah funny pun) my words, this will be the new way for investors to test potential game ideas. The whole new proof of concept (a saying Darkfall's AV likes to toss around). Plus, free starting capital.
Actually, DAoC had 250K subs at peak, EQ had 450K subs at peak. And as you know, we developed DAoC in 18 months at 2.5M vs 3 years at Sony and at a much great expense. And of course, DAoC is still running as is EQ, when so many other MMORPGs aren't, as subscription-based games or in many cases, not running at all and/or never launched.
As to most of the rest, well, you are entitled to your opinion of course.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I agree with this a good sub game that actually lives up to expectations will do fine even today , look at wow its fine and old as crude. They still use the same ol graphics models from 2004 and they never divert from their end game at all. Its dailys , heroics, and raiding nothing else and they continue to rack in the cash.
I think this free to play argument is based on games that just never did that well to begin with. Id much rather pay a sub fee and contribute to a kickstarter for a game I enjoy playing instead of some huge cash shop that basically makes you sutlily buy from them to keep up with your guild members or buddies if you have limited playtime like games like guild wars 2. If you look at all the games out there that have converted to buy to play and free to play none of them really held a candle to older games in terms of size of the worlds , amount of classes , and end game content. A good game that is niche and is sub based still holds a market here even today , the game just has to been done exactly how its sold and there will be no issues I think.