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Originally posted by jtcgs Originally posted by laokoko how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? People just don't like the "zerg" mentality. Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others.
Go read some of the threads on "elitist jerks"...they cant figure it out because its beyond them and they SCREAM at people in the video posts where people are ACTUALLY DOING IT as if the video is FAKED.
You say "zerg" mentality, but that is because YOU CANT FIGURE IT OUT.
My guild has CONSTANT HoT and HAoE's going on our DPSers, and we are dropping buffs/debuffs continually. There is no zerg, you have a zerg because being able to switch between 4 builds is beyond you, you are trained to have a set role, you need to break that in order to get GW2 combat. And that is a great thing for those that like the game, it increases the quality of the playerbase.
I will never go back to WoW clones, far too limiting and predictable. GW2 is a place that will be dominated by guilds with actual skill.
I have yet to experience anything in an MMORPG like watching someone that thinks he can play an Elemental suddenly see one jump between all 4 elements continually, staying healed, doing DPS, CCing and tanking all at the same time while healing and buffing his group, debuffing the enemy.
Well what you say may be very true. But in specific to GW2 it is a zerg for "pve". Because of the rally and rezing mechanic. You can't argue with me that the rallying/downed stats/resing mechenic is zergy. Even after they remove the WP rush it does felt like a zerg. In the trinity setup, everything is very specific and technicle. Everyone have to do specific thing and time it perfectly. That is not what happen in GW2. At least for pve. I dont' pvp much so I can't talk about it.
For all I know, the pve part of GW2 dont' require me to be in a vent the whole time to do well. I can't say the same about other trinity setup game because they are much more techinicle.
But I do think the non trinity setup can be more techinicle. If Anet twich the combo mechanic and make it more meaninful, it can become one of the most techinicle game out there. I mean I watched people pvp in GW2, and it does indeed require some sort of timing of combo field and finisher to perform well. But for pve, not so much.
And another problem is there are actually role in GW2. And some class out perform other class because they are better suited for their roll. Guardian is the best defensive class, warrior is the best dps class, memser is the best support, and for pvp I believe certain class outperform for specific purpose. I dont' really pvp but I think for example elementist is the best bunker? So I think GW2 have some balance issue. If they remove trinity, everyone should be able to do everything equally. That is certainly not the case for GW2.
Button line to me is I won't say non trinity mechanic is more zergy. But for GW2 in specific I do felt it is zergy. If the day comes when i need to be in vent to time my combo field and finisher to successfully do well in GW2 dungeon I'll take back that opinion.
I'll put it this way, when you are on your elementist giving constant aoe and hots buff debuff what not, do you ever need to stop and communicate with your guildmates?
And no, I'm not a supporter of the trinity. I like non trinity better. But for GW2, the combat mehcanic just isn't techinical at all.
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph mmorpg without trinity is easy,dumber,bored,without brain,gameplay,not need coordination,not need talk ...just only hit...only class there is dps nothing else... brw ,it is action shooter not rpg at final(I am not talking only about GW2, non trinity is long time in another games as STO )
Uhm, the trinity gives you a specific role so you will always know what to do. As long as the tank do his job well the DPS will only have to worry about do the right amount of damage (often staying in the same spot while rotating keys) and the healer to keep the tank alive.
That is the single dunbest and easiest system possible.
The trinity was invented by a few amateurs for the first "real" MMO, Meridian 59. Just assuming that they invented the perfect system from the start seems rather arrogant to me.
Guildwars 2 system is indeed far from perfect and the group dynamics of it could be a lot better. It is still more interesting than trinity games like Wow though since I have to react a lot more and adapt to the situation around me. Saying that it just is DPS is simplifying things.
Future MMOs will need a new group mechanic that is more flexible and that demands more from each player than what we seen in any previous game. MMOs should be about working together, strategy and adapting to new situations fast. It should be about wits, not skill rotations and the trinity have been taken as far as it is possible now.
There are more choices than just action shooter and skill rotations.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by cybertrucker Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.
not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role
Bullshit. Do this poll 2 years ago and it would be 90-10 in favor of non-trinity. People have experienced the alternatives and simply do not like them. They don't work as well, and no amount of elitism asshattery will change that.
Do not like the trinity as it stands, there has to be a better way IMO. GW2's way is not much better either.
I guess this is why I like solo or 2 manning content in games though.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Draemos Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by cybertrucker Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.
I would've been one of those who would have voted in favor of non-trinity.
These 743 votes don't lie.
Ah but I see a way to discredit the votes. Those who voted in favor of trinity must be "haters."
i dont want to wait 10 hours for a healer or tanker, i dont want dull combat anymore ,standing in a place and just spam your skills no more thank you
i dont want to depend on other people anymore and praying that the healer or tanker is good
if the healer failed to heal then party is wiped
if tank failed to keep aggro then big chance for a wipe
in GW2 no matter what class you are, you have a chance to find a group
in most mmo, dps classes are already filled and of course they need the key classes (healer,tanker)
i'm glad in GW2 i dont read anymore in chat LF healer LF tank bla bla
people who miss dull trinity then just play another mmo
Originally posted by Tonin109 () i dont want to depend on other people anymore ()
Today's MMOs mantra.
Its really difficult to decide between the two, as our only real experience with non trinity combat is Guild Wars 2, and that was not really that well done.
I feel that on current standards, a slower paced, more methodical approach, with a combat system based on resource management as opposed to cool down management would be much better suited for non trinity gameplay.
Eitherway, I feel both of them, in the current rendition of MMOs are flawed and boring. As others have touched on, a mere three roles is too few and quickly becomes stale. This fixation on numbers and balance that permeates the minds of the modern mmo gamer is frightening. Hell, it could be argued that every game these days is a spreadsheet game like Eve. And thats why its not surprising every game is a copy of each other (Or a copy of WoW, as it seems to be popular to say). At their core, they are all the same game. You need this many numbers in this stat to do this.
Why don't we push to a more dynamic combat system, less focused on fleeting balance? Why do enemies have to be killed by numbers? Why can't they be manoeuvered and pushed off a cliff?
I like to think of the perfect group battle, with the Wizard casting wall of ice to try and funnel incoming peons towards a cliff, where a dwarf with a hammer is knocking them off. While the heavily armored fighter is tangling with a giant cyclops, and the fleet thief crawling all over its back, desperately trying to reach the eye to blind the cyclopse before he smashes his comrade into red paste. After which the party flees from the blinded cyclops deeper into the dungeon.
To me, that sounds far more entertaining than I need X Defense Stat, Y Health Stat, and Z Damage Stat to handle this encounter.
I've never liked the concept of "aggro" as it was implemented, which is one of the fundamental components of the holy trinity.
In most games, the "tank's" job is to load up on damage mitigation (armor, talents, etc) and ways of increasing aggro (equipment, talents) to be able to most effectively keep the mobs attention.
The healer focuses on increasing their healing effectiveness and mana efficiency (equipment and talents) to keep the tank alive.
The DPS is all about maximizing damage potential combined with aggro management.
The system turns into a numbers game, where there is a very clear "best" way to accomplish this model. Over time, new dynamics have been added that have added excitement (scripted boss fights, "adds" tht require off-tanks, etc), but fundamentally the system has always felt flawed to me.
The tank shouldn't be about "taunting" the mob to keep its attention; the tank should be a class that combines damage and mitigation/hardiness. Do you really think that an intelligent monster (let's use a dragon as an example) will ignore the mage casting lightning bolts into its hide and hurting it will focus on the "tin can" standing in front of it, who keeps tickling its paw with a sharp object?
I would rather the trinity be re-established into something that focuses on healing/damage/support. There is no "tank" although some classes and specs are better at mitigating damage; they will not be able to artificially maintain "aggro" and need to be able to contribute to this new trinity in a meaningful way.
I further believe you can have a game where classes /= (i.e., do not equal) roles. A class is a definition of the background and methods in which an individual can accomplish roles, and should be able to change between which role they will take on. I don't believe all roles should be accomplishable by any class at once, but each class should be able to shift between roles. Force individuals to choose between armor/health (survivability) and role efficiency through equipment and spec choices instead of artificially restricting these areas.
Just my morning ramblings. I liked GW2 a lot but do find myself wishing for a bit more defined roles.
I went against my instinct with GW2, as I enjoy support roles.
I told myself, what could it hurt to give this new system a try? I might like it,
after all is this not exactly how my UO characters where back in the day, and I loved UO.
8 months later, I rue the day I put down my money for the box of GW2 as I quit before beta ended.
I tried to like it, but in the end it just didn't work for me.
In my PK guild in UO I played the role as healer often, but that never meant i was helpless, or could not be DPS too.
In GW2 No matter what class or build I tried, I always felt like I fell short of the role I needed.
Healing/protection/support was to weak, and if I tried to stack the deck to much to that role I was completely gimp
in everything else.
UO Had the winning formula, was sand box, and was a complete blast to play in it's first couple years,
sans the early lag issues.
tbh the gw2 system just needs a couple of tweaks, you can already spec towards tankyness and healing, but the coefficients for toughness (threat) and healing are a bit low, if they were higher the roles you can already spec into would be more visible.
My support characters do make dungeons go more smoothly, I love how you can tank things for a short time and then have to get out. I just loved the Age of Conan system back when I played it, where cc and protecting yourself (And your party!) was important, since healing was limited like in gw2.
I love pulling mobs off my squishy party members, all tanky setups allow you to repeatedly disable enemies just like tanks do in trinity games. Support spec allows you to save people's lives, just like in trinity games.
The main issue in gw2 is that there isn't much difficult content once you understand the mechanics and conditions.
tl;dr It's not the system that's broken, it's the implementation - most games are not trinity and they work fine.
Originally posted by Laserwolf As a UO MMO fan I always considered myself rather anti-trinity [...]
Hu ? What the frak ? I've been told that MMOs have the trinity exactly because UO had it. Not by design, by they analyzed what the players would actually play. And yeah, that was: tank, healer, and crowd controller. And thus the trinity.
I don't play it for unreleated reasons now, but there are three truly groundbreaking and excellent additons to the MMO genre that GW2 has made;
1. DE's - with a little more tweaking the idea is golden
2. Combat - especially in PvP the combat was wonderfully dynamic and skill-based
3. No Trinity - this was successful - again, requires tweaking, but it was and is a great success
All those thinking an MMO is better with fixed rolls and the need to search down the kind of player that actually has fun watching health bars for 20 mins in bossfights - well - I like to be involved in all aspects of gameplay -not stcuk under a giant boss's feet for half an hour spamming survival abilities in oversize pate armour.
That you don't agree - I can respect that, but pretending that more freedom of role on a moment to moment basis in an encounter is better than less is rationally quite a hard argument to successfully make.
Originally posted by MMOExpose
once I understood that the trinity also applies in PvP, I built team Stratagy around it. What I define as the tank is mostly the Melee DPS fighters in the group, who can handle a bit of pressure and can do nice threating attacks. Like a Melee Warrior, who most people were afraid of in vanilla Rift. Also Melee clerics, because being a cleric put the automatic fear that they could be a healer of some kind and they smacking you in Melee at the same time, and harder to kill, just like a tank. the enemy will focus fire on them if your tanks know how to play their role.
I agree that a certain "trinity" exists in pvp also, but if you stop to think about it, it's often almost opposite to one in pve as the roles are not solely defined by the players themselves but also by the opponents. You can't play a tank unless you can bluff your importance to your group well enough. Too much offensive capability and you cant tank as you go down and too much defensive capability and you can't tank as the enemy sees you don't do dmg or cc much at all. To grossly generalize how I see it:
- healers, cc and glass cannons are main targets so they "tank"
- pve tanks are... dps and so are the non-glass cannon dps such as those with distance, but not too much dps
- others either support, dps or cc as they can.
To summarize, the situation is quite perverse to pve and the sole reason is that an aggro mechanism doesn't exist. I agree to comments that tank&spank is quite boring and I welcome all attempts at various different aggro systems. What I would consider ideal would be one as realistic as possible.
One where the mob percieves to group composition and truely determines how it can win. This means that to still maintain a reasonable level of difficulty and a good range of viable roles, the aggro system needs to take into account at least the following aspects:
- offensive and defensive capability of players (for a group of monsters they need to percieve aoe capability)
- dots and cc of players
- own and enemies' healths
- distance to current target and other enemies
- own ranged and melee attack and cc types
- also naturally a group of monsters should be able to perform in an organized manner at least in appropriate situations
Is such a system possible? It would require that AI draws input from group composition and determines a template for each encounter and then modifies it based on the group's performance so far in the instance. Should be possible. To make it more controlloable by players without giving them high aggro tank skills, all of them should have decent ability to mitigate dmg in form of either evasion, positioning (fast movement), self healing, blocking or cc or a mixture of those. Or something else such as high cd erase aggro or something I'm not thinking of now. In other words, to control it, you need to know your group: it's roles' weaknesses and strenghts, know who get's aggro first and when and then control it. Possible. Now, how close is this to gw2?
Would it be worth it and would it be fun are more difficult questions. For group content these days ppl seem to enjoy speed runs and prefer smoothness quite a lot so perhaps not. However, similar to how a gvg situation can be "controlled", an aggro system as described above, could also be possibly enjoyed by masses if it had proper tutorials about it etc.. it could be a lot fun for many. In principle aggro mechanism and it's management aren't related to roles, but for the longest time they've been very intertwined.
Yeah, I miss it. I love playing healers in games, the adrenaline rush can be awesome.
The whole industry is so watered down these days that I'm not sure we'll see much of the "old school" concepts anymore. It's all about the NAO generation.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Oderint, dum metuant.
Originally posted by Volkon I prefer what GW2 has done with combat personally. They've taken the "trinity" concept, broken that down into aspects of damage, control and support, and placed those aspects on the various skills in the game... usually more than one aspect per skill. The idea becomes knowing what skill to use at the most opportune time as opposed to simply getting caught up in a rotation that some dudes surfing spreadsheets and calculators determined was how you're supposed to play. I like being able to watch the combat happening and react accordingly rather than be in a set role or follow a script.
So bring moar Guardians? Cause that's basically the extent of GW2s grouping environment.
They really don't have a hybrid system. much of what they did with healing was not powerful enough to heal properly for most classes and what they did with toughness really is useless against bosses . so if they had an actual support defense role it might be worth calling it a hybrid but they didn't. I agree with Dreamus the guardians were the only healing class that could really heal with any kind of efficiency.
So If they used a hybrid system then people would be able to heal on most classes, what they have is only 1 class can heal adequately and the rest might be able to if ever they got around to balancing them/fixing them properly.
Originally posted by Volkon () I like being able to watch the combat happening and react accordingly rather than be in a set role or follow a script.
Welcome to 2013. Where every recently released game that boasts a more active combat has you "watch the combat happening and react accordingly rather than be in a set role or follow a script."
My first post to these forums so please be nice! lol
A little about me first i guess...Im a veteran of Wow playing at the sharp end on progression and i quit a few months before MoP landed. I played Secret World for a couple of months before moving on to GW2. Ive been a gamer since the 1980's and im pretty sure ive played every single top game of its day on every platform ever released since the BBC micro! lol
This subject of the Holy Trinity is very much a subjective issue imo. The very traditional MMO model created this holy trinity of character roles but i feel gaming itself is moving forward and the GW2 development of strong individual characters is the correct next step in MMO gaming.... and heres why.
Using GW2 as an example i can see that every player is expected to be alot more skillful in general to be able to compete as they progress through the game. Now, im not saying that Wow has lower skill requirments, it simply has a different gamer skillset requirement. GW2 appears to have require a player to use good old fashioned gaming skills of reactions and very fast decision making. This can be seen in the fact that u need to dodge incoming damage, react fast with selfheals when u take damage. You are expected to move your character around a whole lot more in GW2 then u do in Wow too. Ofc the higher level PvE content requires the player to be even faster reactions, even better group vision to react to every players situations.
Wow demands a higher degree of organisation and coordination of the team overall, usually from a raid leader. GW2 doesnt need this at all. Each player is required to know his job and perform or the team fails.
The Wow model of the holy trinity narrows the players skills into one role which they can tunnel and learn much easier imo. The Wow boss fights show this very clearly. The GW2 bossfights r easier to learn than the Wow bossfights BUT the GW2 bossfights r much more difficult to master. The main skill a Wow PvEr needs to do is learn the fight before he turns up by watching videos of what to do. There arent many reactionary boss mechanics in Wow so u simply end up running the same 'path' through a boss. Basically speaking once u have learned a boss u can do it with your eyes shut in Wow. In GW2 the bosses r far more random and u need to keep on your toes to stay alive and also do enough damage to kill him... every fight against the same boss is different.
Ofc its all up to personal preference what type on gaming u prefer to which game u play.
Another major reason GW2 went down a road of losing the Holy Trinity was so that players didnt fall into the trap of not being able to do content due to not being able to find a certain class (another player) to play with. U simply group up with any 5 players in GW2 and u can run a dungeon. Looking for pug groups in Wow is much tougher.