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After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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  • Aison2Aison2 MarburgPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by Osias000

    I like to be a healer. Sometimes its fairly rewarding to be the only reason a group was able to take down some very hard to kill boss because you placed the right heals at the right time. I like GW2, but there is something about the trinity that just makes MMOs fun for me.

    I say keep the trinity and let GW do their own thing, and have a little bit of both. People seem to think its impossible, but not all games have to be exactly the same.

    You should realize that without trinity your role in combat can be much greater than just healing. In gw2 you can finish the boss without help if you play perfect. I did so myself and was quite proud of saving the party from a wipe. In a healer/tank setup you are powerless if your companion dies to his mistake.

     

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Aison2
    Originally posted by Osias000

    I like to be a healer. Sometimes its fairly rewarding to be the only reason a group was able to take down some very hard to kill boss because you placed the right heals at the right time. I like GW2, but there is something about the trinity that just makes MMOs fun for me.

    I say keep the trinity and let GW do their own thing, and have a little bit of both. People seem to think its impossible, but not all games have to be exactly the same.

    You should realize that without trinity your role in combat can be much greater than just healing. In gw2 you can finish the boss without help if you play perfect. I did so myself and was quite proud of saving the party from a wipe. In a healer/tank setup you are powerless if your companion dies to his mistake.

     

    this is one thing i really enjoy about gw2 system.. when i played my healer in Rift if I get hosed the group was toast.. but like you said in GW2 any good player can make a rally and bring the team back.. makes combat much more exciting to me and way less predicatable.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member

    hmm how to put it, while i dont hate on people who want to not have the holy trinity i prefer it.

    why for me is simple i like to know what role im to fullfill, in real life its the same way i like a class to be able to fullfill multiple roles but i like everyone to know what their job is withen the group. this makes play easyier and more fluid, where everyone being able to do everything make it more chotic.

    also it give people more reason to group, where as the ability to do everything incorages people to solo. i understand the concept of i wanna group because i want to not because i have to, but in reality this dousnt work in MMOs because we would never meet new people and make new friends if we didnt have a reason to group togther with people we dont aleady know

    this is a bit of a ramble and in the end the holy trinity will always be liked or disliked as a matter of opion but this is mine, and i wont fault others for theirs.

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • TadderTadder Naples, FLPosts: 38Member

    Personally didn't enjoy the healing in GW2, mainly in PvP. Though it was nice for solo PvE.

    1v1 PvP was like a 2 round boxing match, often seeing who would hit their heal first.

    I think the personal heals/escapes for every class also ruined some aspects of RvR base strategy.  Was much harder for defenders to kill someone on the ground since even an alpha-strike could be quickly countered by a self-heal and roll away (much faster than a healer could have targeted and healed that player imo.) Likewise, defenders could be pretty idiotic and if they got into trouble just heal and roll away. I spent most of my time just pulling guys off walls. Just my view of it, I've played healers in WoW, Rift, so I enjoy it, but I wouldnt' be opposed to a new system if it was done right.

    Another reason i didn't enjoy the GW2 system completely was that I thought it softened specialization a bit. Even a glass cannon thief/Hardcore DPS had a heal. Made them more of a bronze cannon.

  • DzoneDzone bowling green, KYPosts: 351Member Uncommon
    I prefer the trinity system, i personally wanna just focas on one role. Everyone being able to do everything is way to much. Should be magic casters in the back line, while melee fighters up front next to the mob. Didn't like playing a guardian in GW2, couldn't tank and all the healing spells was just shot out in front of my guy in a strait line, only healing who was directly in front of me. Hated that. Really need to beable to target allies to heal or AE heals. Plus with no hate system battles just turn into a mess, no orgenization at all. In GW2 only time we ever planed ahead of time was certain parts of a dungeon. PVE was nothing but a zerg fest, sadly. Even with the dragons.... no stratagy their.
  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Riverside, RIPosts: 3,266Member Uncommon
    This is where GW2 falls flat on its face. Their system promotes everyone playing alone...together. Dungeons are a complete mess. I've said it before: there's a reason the trinity has been in RPGs since the 1970's. It works.

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
    ESO, FE, FFXI, FFXIV, FF, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MO, MxO, NW, Rift, RoE,
    Ryzom, SB, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Dzone
    I prefer the trinity system, i personally wanna just focas on one role. Everyone being able to do everything is way to much. Should be magic casters in the back line, while melee fighters up front next to the mob. Didn't like playing a guardian in GW2, couldn't tank and all the healing spells was just shot out in front of my guy in a strait line, only healing who was directly in front of me. Hated that. Really need to beable to target allies to heal or AE heals. Plus with no hate system battles just turn into a mess, no orgenization at all. In GW2 only time we ever planed ahead of time was certain parts of a dungeon. PVE was nothing but a zerg fest, sadly. Even with the dragons.... no stratagy their.

    i will agree dragons need a bit more variety to them but let me ask.. what modern themepark MMO requires any sort of strategy or coordination outside raiding? I did every dungeon in Rift in all difficulties aside from the Raids up till the expansion and not a single one required any strategy all we had to do is do each of our roles well and we got through it.. as long as you knew the boss mechanics you did what you needed to do and that was that.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by remyburke
    This is where GW2 falls flat on its face. Their system promotes everyone playing alone...together. Dungeons are a complete mess. I've said it before: there's a reason the trinity has been in RPGs since the 1970's. It works.

     Dungeons are only a mess for people who never understood the combat system. Thankfully you can't res zerg anymore in dungeons, so people have to actually think about what they are doing wrong.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by remyburke
    This is where GW2 falls flat on its face. Their system promotes everyone playing alone...together. Dungeons are a complete mess. I've said it before: there's a reason the trinity has been in RPGs since the 1970's. It works.

     Dungeons are only a mess for people who never understood the combat system. Thankfully you can't res zerg anymore in dungeons, so people have to actually think about what they are doing wrong.

    I have done dungeons with PUGs of people who had no clue and with guildmates who do dungeon runs all the time.. it really is night and day.. in other MMOs i could get a PUG and finish most any regular dungeon no problem as long as people knew there roles. In gw2 its a bit differn't because you really need to know the combat system and know how to fill multiple roles on the fly. Saying that you can get through many of the dungeons even now just running around not really knowing what you are doing but it will be time consuming and frustrating. Pick any dungeon in the game and go on youtube and watch the speed runs some guys upload and see how a coordinated team can just destroy dungeons in this game. If combat was nothing more than a jumbled mess this would not be possible. it just has a much higher learning curve than the average MMO when it comes to the basic dungeons.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    So as the title asks. We have seen a game launch now that tried to break the mold and offer us a game that didn't rely on the holy trinity. Some like it some don't.. So how does everyone here feel that has tried a non holy trinity game? Do yu think games are better  with the trinity or witha massive hybrid system like GW2 offered or something close to it..Vote and discuss below.

     

    The issue with GW2 classes is not the lack of holy trinity it that only dps is effective. Speching for cc/buffs/healing/tanky are all worthless you gain far more from increasing your dps... so instead of a hybrid system they have a system that only allows you to effectively dps. IE bad design/ balance and note this is purposeful there were many classes in beta that had tank dps and healing classes or dps and buffing roles ... little bet of everything totaly like they intially sold the system. But there action have been that of nerffing any role other than dps into uslessness.

    So Holy trinity is not nessesary, but diversity and depth of combat are and when your onyl real option is dps.... your class system and combat become shallower.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Jetrpg
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    So as the title asks. We have seen a game launch now that tried to break the mold and offer us a game that didn't rely on the holy trinity. Some like it some don't.. So how does everyone here feel that has tried a non holy trinity game? Do yu think games are better  with the trinity or witha massive hybrid system like GW2 offered or something close to it..Vote and discuss below.

     

    The issue with GW2 classes is not the lack of holy trinity it that only dps is effective. Speching for cc/buffs/healing/tanky are all worthless you gain far more from increasing your dps... so instead of a hybrid system they have a system that only allows you to effectively dps. IE bad design/ balance and note this is purposeful there were many classes in beta that had tank dps and healing classes or dps and buffing roles ... little bet of everything totaly like they intially sold the system. But there action have been that of nerffing any role other than dps into uslessness.

    So Holy trinity is not nessesary, but diversity and depth of combat are and when your onyl real option is dps.... your class system and combat become shallower.

    this is completely false.. i run my mesmer mostly in the support role with staff and find myself one of the most effective people in dungeon runs.. i can't count how many times I kept us going with my illusions and picking up a couple clutch rezzes. Most issues i see in this game in regards to playing a more support role is really a L2P issue as people can't grasp the fact you need to play mutliple roles constantly to really be effective in combat(especially dungeons) sure you can just go around being dps if you like but you are really gimping the group overall in doing so

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • MaroxadMaroxad SölvesborgPosts: 28Member

    While I see nothing wrong with a role system, I can't stand the holy trinity. It makes combat too stale and predictable, I wouldnt even call it teamwork for most of the part. I just mind my own business (keep mobs on me and use skills to mitigate as much damage as possible) and let the other players do their part. As long as their numbers are high enough, they are smart enough not to stand in the fire and they use that class utility skill or 2 I dont care what they do.

    Now, if the threat mechanics were removed, things like positioning, formations and proper tactics (I do not consider "don't stand in the fire" proper tactics) may suddenly become important. As for GW2, the encounters feel like they were designed around the mechanics of the trinity, but were put in a game where the trinity does not exist. Execution is one of the most important things of any game, sadly, I feel that GW2 was not all that well executed.

  • LaserwolfLaserwolf Oklahoma City, OKPosts: 2,383Member
    As a UO MMO fan I always considered myself rather anti-trinity since it is something that was closely tied with class-based games instead of skill-based, but after playing GW2, I realize it wasn't such a bad system afterall. I miss being the class no one wants to play but everyone wants in their group and you just don't have that with a game like GW2 where everyone pretty much heals themselves. Of course ideally I'd prefer a skill-based MMO where you'd have to sacrifice combat or defensive skills for healing skills which still works under a Trinity System but with more flexibility. Until then, I'd kind of like Trinity back.

    image

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member
    Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

    not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

    not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role

    how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

    People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others.

     

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    Death to the trinity

    image
  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

    not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role

    how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

    People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others.

     

    See the difference is while you do not have to rely on others to get stuff done, proper team work actually makes everything go easier, faster and overall smoother. Sure in a group of 5 each fo you can be pressing your own buttons not minding the other, but same time a group of 5 players playing together will steamroll through same ocntent in a fraction of time, because theyw ill use combo fields, they will support eachother, they will combo their utility skills, etc. 

    I don't long for waiting forever to find a competent tank or healer when none of the guild ones are online, that's just boring and makes things even worse when said tank or healer emo quits because he didn't get the lewts he wanted. Seen that enough. 

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Ezhae
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

    not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role

    how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

    People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others.

     

    See the difference is while you do not have to rely on others to get stuff done, proper team work actually makes everything go easier, faster and overall smoother. Sure in a group of 5 each fo you can be pressing your own buttons not minding the other, but same time a group of 5 players playing together will steamroll through same ocntent in a fraction of time, because theyw ill use combo fields, they will support eachother, they will combo their utility skills, etc. 

    I don't long for waiting forever to find a competent tank or healer when none of the guild ones are online, that's just boring and makes things even worse when said tank or healer emo quits because he didn't get the lewts he wanted. Seen that enough. 

    exactly and you can see this in action in dungeons.. watch 5 people who just roll their face on the keyboard and watch them get frustrated and rage quit.. find 5 people who know the combat and know how to change up roles on the fly and support each other and themselves and watch them roll through every dungeon in the game

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph SarajevoPosts: 1,070Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

    not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role


    mmorpg without trinity is easy,dumber,bored,without  brain,gameplay,not need coordination,not need talk ...just only hit...only class there is dps nothing else... brw ,it is action shooter not rpg at final(I am not talking only about GW2, non trinity is long time in another games  as  STO )

     

     

     

     

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

    not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role


    mmorpg without trinity is easy,dumber,bored,without  brain,gameplay,not need coordination,not need talk ...just only hit...only class there is dps nothing else... brw ,it is action shooter not rpg at final(I am not talking only about GW2, non trinity is long time in another games  as  STO )

     

     

     

     

    mmos without trinity needs entire groups who are actually competent players not just tank + healer as dps in holy trinity can many times just go on auto pilot most the time(depending how its implemented).. non trinity requires much more skill all around to complete challenges than a trinity based game in my experience.. what strategy or coordination  is required to complete pretty much any dungeon in holy trinity based games outside raid coordination? As long as everyone plays there roll and is decent at it majority is so easy you hardly need to pay any attention at all in many cases.. also of course there is much more than just dps, if you honestly think there is just dps you don't know the system at all in gw2. In gw2 you need to know how to switch roles on the fly and take care of yourself and your team at any given moment.. makes for some much more exciting and varied gameplay in my experience

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by laokoko

    how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

    People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others. 

     Go read some of the threads on "elitist jerks"...they cant figure it out because its beyond them and they SCREAM at people in the video posts where people are ACTUALLY DOING IT as if the video is FAKED.

    You say "zerg" mentality, but that is because YOU CANT FIGURE IT OUT.

    My guild has CONSTANT HoT and HAoE's going on our DPSers, and we are dropping buffs/debuffs continually. There is no zerg, you have a zerg because being able to switch between 4 builds is beyond you, you are trained to have a set role, you need to break that in order to get GW2 combat. And that is a great thing for those that like the game, it increases the quality of the playerbase.

    I will never go back to WoW clones, far too limiting and predictable. GW2 is a place that will be dominated by guilds with actual skill.

    I have yet to experience anything in an MMORPG like watching someone that thinks he can play an Elemental suddenly see one jump between all 4 elements continually, staying healed, doing DPS, CCing and tanking all at the same time while healing and buffing his group, debuffing the enemy.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonPosts: 848Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    A good AI challenges you. It makes you think. This was the role of the GM in P&P games. Holy trinity just makes you go on autopilot. I'm at a point where I am willing to try anything other than that horrible, horrible system.

    I think it''s less about a trinity of roles (keep in mind that I'm for a "soft" trinity or just about anything where one can have a focus on some sort of role) and what you said in that it's more about AI and how these encounters play out. You can have definite roles and still have complex fights but as you put it, the AI needs to be adaptive, intelligent, and more than rinse and repeat encounters.

    Part of this is that mmo devs have completely gone down the simplification rabbit hole. I agree that just having a Tank shouting and keeping aggro and then the Damage dealers burning down the enemy (and for "some" reason they don't mind this) and then a healer to fill up a Tank is horrible. And it does contribute to Auto Pilot. But that has nothing to do with the stalwart warrior protectingg those who are not tough but who wield arcane powers or who skirt the fight waitting for moments of opportunity.

    I play a tank in Tera, a game that does have roles, and it was quite refreshing for the 30 foot tall Baddie go for the healer, I couldn't get aggro so I charged across the room, putting myself between it and the healer, shield slammed it and then turned to throw out a chain and lpull a mob to me that was charging for another player in the group. It wasn't about being the tank and soaking damage as opposed to being an active participant in the fight. Which is mor e to my taste.

    Part of this is also a group of players who are more interested in "leveling fast" and getting good loot. Therefore the entire experience has come down to a simplified skinner box.

    take quest, run to glowy area on map, kill 10 things, run back to other glowy area on map, turn in quest, get reward, rinse and repeat.

    As opposed to allowing players to explore, search, scout, find their objectives, fight if need be and during that fight they excercise their specializations that, because they work together, they are greater than their own individual contributions.

     

    There is of course a simple fix.  Create a game where there is an advantage for the mellee classes to form a protective line between the MOBs and the ranged DPS.  No tank turns MOB  everyone runs behind MOB and forms a puppy pile (AKA stacks). Do this and there is no need to taunt the MOB off, the MOBs are facing the group.

    Of course that means no 1 shot frontal attacks, or at least giving some classes the ability to shield the whole group from them.

  • GrunimGrunim Seattle, WAPosts: 143Member Uncommon

    I'm loving the hybrid approach in GW2.   In other MMOs I tended to pick the class which offered more of a hybrid style.  For example, in Aion I loved the chanter class where sometimes I handled the primary healing, sometimes I was the buffer, sometimes I took over as tank.

    I definitely want more hybrid options in MMOs and not just the holy trinity. 

     

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by laokoko

    how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

    People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others. 

     Go read some of the threads on "elitist jerks"...they cant figure it out because its beyond them and they SCREAM at people in the video posts where people are ACTUALLY DOING IT as if the video is FAKED.

    You say "zerg" mentality, but that is because YOU CANT FIGURE IT OUT.

    My guild has CONSTANT HoT and HAoE's going on our DPSers, and we are dropping buffs/debuffs continually. There is no zerg, you have a zerg because being able to switch between 4 builds is beyond you, you are trained to have a set role, you need to break that in order to get GW2 combat. And that is a great thing for those that like the game, it increases the quality of the playerbase.

    I will never go back to WoW clones, far too limiting and predictable. GW2 is a place that will be dominated by guilds with actual skill.

    I have yet to experience anything in an MMORPG like watching someone that thinks he can play an Elemental suddenly see one jump between all 4 elements continually, staying healed, doing DPS, CCing and tanking all at the same time while healing and buffing his group, debuffing the enemy.

    yea someone who can master elementalist is an amazing site.. I myself don't have the reflexes to pull off what I have seen some do in PVP. I on a whole don't mind trinity roles but I just don't enjoy pigeon holed classes.. I think Rift is a great example of how to do the trinity well and even they added a 4th role as well and allowed every class to play multiple roles and switch between them easily.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

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