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forced to start over for new classes/horrible, anyone agree?

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  • sxvssxvs massillon, OHPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    having levels is the problem. not the lack of dual class system.

     

     

    just curious how it would work without levels? i'm assuming it would just focus on other stuff rather than levelling up?

    i never minded levels that much, ever since rpg's began it was usually levelling up was it not?  that would seem odd to me to take away levels but it could be interesting.

    you too hooked on the line of what rpgs traditionally had.

    look at the biggest popular FPS games on the market. at one point in time, people thought Health Packs was the stable in FPS genre, until Halo came out with health regen which new aged FPS also use now.  Health Pack FPS get downrated now.

    stop holding onto traditonal mechanics of the past. Levels are old. Not needed, since most of a player's time is spent at endgame anyway.

     

    Just take a game like WoW or RIft which has level paths. If the levels were removed, than the whole game is endgame. from the first dungeon, to the last dungeon. Every single thing that is craftable is endgame crafting, since there is no need for low level filler crafting  which become useless to endgame players.

    all progression is endgame.

    Players can venture and explore anywhere from day 1, not until they reach a certain level.

    That would nearly triple the amount of endgame content in most MMO like that. in Rift, the lower level events wouldnt be low level anymore, since everywhere you go is max level content.

    Progression could be something thats more group focused rather than just fully indivisual like most MMOs tend to do things now days. There is so much that can be done in a MMO that didnt have levels. no more population tiers. The game would be a world. Players go and play where ever they enjoy, not just where the endgame starts.

    but most developers cant see past traditions.

    in the above example, I would have a character I play most, my main, and my alts can jump in and have their own progression and add to my overall group( aka Guild, or faction, or alliance, what ever) and build its own indivisual story. doesnt need levels to tell me what to do. playing and having fun, can do that for me.

     

    oh well.

    Aren't these levels by a different name?  I mean afterall levels are simply a way of measuring progression and without progression you don't really have a game.    

     

     

    yeah, that's what i was getting at.... the limitation on exploration makes complete sense and why it might be better without that limitation but there are other elements that incorporate the same "progression" beyond levelling up that are generally "end game" progression.

    one would essentially have to eliminate all progression or it just shifts to something else most likely.

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    having levels is the problem. not the lack of dual class system.

     

     

    just curious how it would work without levels? i'm assuming it would just focus on other stuff rather than levelling up?

    i never minded levels that much, ever since rpg's began it was usually levelling up was it not?  that would seem odd to me to take away levels but it could be interesting.

    you too hooked on the line of what rpgs traditionally had.

    look at the biggest popular FPS games on the market. at one point in time, people thought Health Packs was the stable in FPS genre, until Halo came out with health regen which new aged FPS also use now.  Health Pack FPS get downrated now.

    stop holding onto traditonal mechanics of the past. Levels are old. Not needed, since most of a player's time is spent at endgame anyway.

     

    Just take a game like WoW or RIft which has level paths. If the levels were removed, than the whole game is endgame. from the first dungeon, to the last dungeon. Every single thing that is craftable is endgame crafting, since there is no need for low level filler crafting  which become useless to endgame players.

    all progression is endgame.

    Players can venture and explore anywhere from day 1, not until they reach a certain level.

    That would nearly triple the amount of endgame content in most MMO like that. in Rift, the lower level events wouldnt be low level anymore, since everywhere you go is max level content.

    Progression could be something thats more group focused rather than just fully indivisual like most MMOs tend to do things now days. There is so much that can be done in a MMO that didnt have levels. no more population tiers. The game would be a world. Players go and play where ever they enjoy, not just where the endgame starts.

    but most developers cant see past traditions.

    in the above example, I would have a character I play most, my main, and my alts can jump in and have their own progression and add to my overall group( aka Guild, or faction, or alliance, what ever) and build its own indivisual story. doesnt need levels to tell me what to do. playing and having fun, can do that for me.

     

    oh well.

    Aren't these levels by a different name?  I mean afterall levels are simply a way of measuring progression and without progression you don't really have a game.    

     

     

    yeah, that's what i was getting at.... the limitation on exploration makes complete sense and why it might be better without that limitation but there are other elements that incorporate the same "progression" beyond levelling up that are generally "end game" progression.

    one would essentially have to eliminate all progression or it just shifts to something else most likely.

    I do agree, however, that the idea of following a linear path through level specific zones is a bit crap, particularly given that it results in 90% of the game being utterly redundant at cap.  It would be nice if the entire world were open to anyone at any time, and by this I do not mean artificially lowering someones level to suit the zone.  

  • sxvssxvs massillon, OHPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    having levels is the problem. not the lack of dual class system.

     

     

    just curious how it would work without levels? i'm assuming it would just focus on other stuff rather than levelling up?

    i never minded levels that much, ever since rpg's began it was usually levelling up was it not?  that would seem odd to me to take away levels but it could be interesting.

    you too hooked on the line of what rpgs traditionally had.

    look at the biggest popular FPS games on the market. at one point in time, people thought Health Packs was the stable in FPS genre, until Halo came out with health regen which new aged FPS also use now.  Health Pack FPS get downrated now.

    stop holding onto traditonal mechanics of the past. Levels are old. Not needed, since most of a player's time is spent at endgame anyway.

     

    Just take a game like WoW or RIft which has level paths. If the levels were removed, than the whole game is endgame. from the first dungeon, to the last dungeon. Every single thing that is craftable is endgame crafting, since there is no need for low level filler crafting  which become useless to endgame players.

    all progression is endgame.

    Players can venture and explore anywhere from day 1, not until they reach a certain level.

    That would nearly triple the amount of endgame content in most MMO like that. in Rift, the lower level events wouldnt be low level anymore, since everywhere you go is max level content.

    Progression could be something thats more group focused rather than just fully indivisual like most MMOs tend to do things now days. There is so much that can be done in a MMO that didnt have levels. no more population tiers. The game would be a world. Players go and play where ever they enjoy, not just where the endgame starts.

    but most developers cant see past traditions.

    in the above example, I would have a character I play most, my main, and my alts can jump in and have their own progression and add to my overall group( aka Guild, or faction, or alliance, what ever) and build its own indivisual story. doesnt need levels to tell me what to do. playing and having fun, can do that for me.

     

    oh well.

    Aren't these levels by a different name?  I mean afterall levels are simply a way of measuring progression and without progression you don't really have a game.    

     

     

    yeah, that's what i was getting at.... the limitation on exploration makes complete sense and why it might be better without that limitation but there are other elements that incorporate the same "progression" beyond levelling up that are generally "end game" progression.

    one would essentially have to eliminate all progression or it just shifts to something else most likely.

    I do agree, however, that the idea of following a linear path through level specific zones is a bit crap, particularly given that it results in 90% of the game being utterly redundant at cap.  It would be nice if the entire world were open to anyone at any times, and by this I do not mean artificially lowering someones level to suit the zone.  

    yeah, i also agree with that...

    maybe if someone can just make an mmo simply fun enough to play instead of where you played to progress, ie... you logged in just because it was fun to explore or fight a boss and you didn't have to progress.

    i think the problem they run into is how much fun can you have with it? you explore a continent pretty fast without any progression and then what? i guess the progression is what is supposed to be the block to make you stay longer.

    you spend a ton of time progressing to fight a boss, if you could just simply fight the boss you would be done pretty fast and then what... keep fighting the boss over and over?

    because in a non mmo game you usually play the game for a couple months and then stop playing it as there isn't a constant progression really.

    even skyrim an amazingly fun game to explore and play, you can't just keep going over the same stuff and have the same fun.

    maybe progression is needed to keep you playing? or maybe they could just keep releasing new content to keep people playing instead, but is that realistic? seems alot more difficult that simply adding progression.

     

    aghhh my head hurts now. haha.

     

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    If the point of an MMO is persistence then playing multiple toons is a bad idea. You should be able to play a single toon for years. Some hardcore players will still need more content, but they will be a small minority. Others will be angry because they can't experience everything the game has to offer in a month. I would hope these ridiculous people are a minority. FFXI had it right.  FFXIV will be similar.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    having levels is the problem. not the lack of dual class system.

     

     

    just curious how it would work without levels? i'm assuming it would just focus on other stuff rather than levelling up?

    i never minded levels that much, ever since rpg's began it was usually levelling up was it not?  that would seem odd to me to take away levels but it could be interesting.

    you too hooked on the line of what rpgs traditionally had.

    look at the biggest popular FPS games on the market. at one point in time, people thought Health Packs was the stable in FPS genre, until Halo came out with health regen which new aged FPS also use now.  Health Pack FPS get downrated now.

    stop holding onto traditonal mechanics of the past. Levels are old. Not needed, since most of a player's time is spent at endgame anyway.

     

    Just take a game like WoW or RIft which has level paths. If the levels were removed, than the whole game is endgame. from the first dungeon, to the last dungeon. Every single thing that is craftable is endgame crafting, since there is no need for low level filler crafting  which become useless to endgame players.

    all progression is endgame.

    Players can venture and explore anywhere from day 1, not until they reach a certain level.

    That would nearly triple the amount of endgame content in most MMO like that. in Rift, the lower level events wouldnt be low level anymore, since everywhere you go is max level content.

    Progression could be something thats more group focused rather than just fully indivisual like most MMOs tend to do things now days. There is so much that can be done in a MMO that didnt have levels. no more population tiers. The game would be a world. Players go and play where ever they enjoy, not just where the endgame starts.

    but most developers cant see past traditions.

    in the above example, I would have a character I play most, my main, and my alts can jump in and have their own progression and add to my overall group( aka Guild, or faction, or alliance, what ever) and build its own indivisual story. doesnt need levels to tell me what to do. playing and having fun, can do that for me.

     

    oh well.

    Aren't these levels by a different name?  I mean afterall levels are simply a way of measuring progression and without progression you don't really have a game.    

     

    I build a house.

     

    First I build the left wall.

     

    than I built the right wall.

     

    then I add a window to the walls I have so far.

    I then add a floor and some tiles on it.

     

    on and on.

    its progression of building a house, but it it levels with a different name? maybe.

    image

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by sxvs
     

    yeah, i also agree with that...

    maybe if someone can just make an mmo simply fun enough to play instead of where you played to progress, ie... you logged in just because it was fun to explore or fight a boss and you didn't have to progress.

    i think the problem they run into is how much fun can you have with it? you explore a continent pretty fast without any progression and then what? i guess the progression is what is supposed to be the block to make you stay longer.

    you spend a ton of time progressing to fight a boss, if you could just simply fight the boss you would be done pretty fast and then what... keep fighting the boss over and over?

    because in a non mmo game you usually play the game for a couple months and then stop playing it as there isn't a constant progression really.

    even skyrim an amazingly fun game to explore and play, you can't just keep going over the same stuff and have the same fun.

    maybe progression is needed to keep you playing? or maybe they could just keep releasing new content to keep people playing instead, but is that realistic? seems alot more difficult that simply adding progression.

     

    aghhh my head hurts now. haha.

     

    You could have other forms of progression; exploration, acheivements, cosmetic rewards, skills, or just simply the fun of completing new stuff.  Afterall levels are a bit of a nonsense given that the mobs you fight are always (more or less) the same level as you (unless you enjoy hanging around low level zones showing off your shiny new weapon).  What I mean to say is that there is actually no requirement whatsoever for traditional levelling in an mmo.  

  • sxvssxvs massillon, OHPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by Magiknight
    If the point of an MMO is persistence then playing multiple toons is a bad idea. You should be able to play a single toon for years. Some hardcore players will still need more content, but they will be a small minority. Others will be angry because they can't experience everything the game has to offer in a month. I would hope these ridiculous people are a minority. FFXI had it right.  FFXIV will be similar.

     

    ineed, i played ffxi for 2 and a half years and only got 1 "job" to the artifect level which was beastmaster... i had so much fun just saying, "i want to try ninja today" and going and having a 4 hour ninja session and then later in the day before i went to bed i went ahead and worked on beastmaster a little.. i had a bunch of classes in the medium range and i greatly enjoyed that i had so many options available to me based on how i felt that day.

    in a different game i would've had to start 6 new characters and get accustomed to all these characters... it doesn't make sense to me when it seems like it's so superior of a method to just have the 1 character.

    i don't get why these warcraft games and such are making you play different characters each time.

    coming from final fantasty to warcraft i was so confused by the system that i probably made 20 characters to begin with because it was such a frustrating/ineffecient way of doing things.

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    having levels is the problem. not the lack of dual class system.

     

     

    just curious how it would work without levels? i'm assuming it would just focus on other stuff rather than levelling up?

    i never minded levels that much, ever since rpg's began it was usually levelling up was it not?  that would seem odd to me to take away levels but it could be interesting.

    you too hooked on the line of what rpgs traditionally had.

    look at the biggest popular FPS games on the market. at one point in time, people thought Health Packs was the stable in FPS genre, until Halo came out with health regen which new aged FPS also use now.  Health Pack FPS get downrated now.

    stop holding onto traditonal mechanics of the past. Levels are old. Not needed, since most of a player's time is spent at endgame anyway.

     

    Just take a game like WoW or RIft which has level paths. If the levels were removed, than the whole game is endgame. from the first dungeon, to the last dungeon. Every single thing that is craftable is endgame crafting, since there is no need for low level filler crafting  which become useless to endgame players.

    all progression is endgame.

    Players can venture and explore anywhere from day 1, not until they reach a certain level.

    That would nearly triple the amount of endgame content in most MMO like that. in Rift, the lower level events wouldnt be low level anymore, since everywhere you go is max level content.

    Progression could be something thats more group focused rather than just fully indivisual like most MMOs tend to do things now days. There is so much that can be done in a MMO that didnt have levels. no more population tiers. The game would be a world. Players go and play where ever they enjoy, not just where the endgame starts.

    but most developers cant see past traditions.

    in the above example, I would have a character I play most, my main, and my alts can jump in and have their own progression and add to my overall group( aka Guild, or faction, or alliance, what ever) and build its own indivisual story. doesnt need levels to tell me what to do. playing and having fun, can do that for me.

     

    oh well.

    Aren't these levels by a different name?  I mean afterall levels are simply a way of measuring progression and without progression you don't really have a game.    

     

    I build a house.

     

    First I build the left wall.

     

    than I built the right wall.

     

    then I add a window to the walls I have so far.

    I then add a floor and some tiles on it.

     

    on and on.

    its progression of building a house, but it it levels with a different name? maybe.

    This is kind of what I meant, all games have levels whether you choose to call them that or not.  Saying you don't have levels is like denying time exists because you hid your clock.  

    What I meant however is that level specific zones are an idiotic design as they become redundant when you level above them.  Therefore, perhaps other froms of progression (rather than the 0-60 grind) should be considered that can utilise the entire map.  

  • sxvssxvs massillon, OHPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by sxvs
     

    yeah, i also agree with that...

    maybe if someone can just make an mmo simply fun enough to play instead of where you played to progress, ie... you logged in just because it was fun to explore or fight a boss and you didn't have to progress.

    i think the problem they run into is how much fun can you have with it? you explore a continent pretty fast without any progression and then what? i guess the progression is what is supposed to be the block to make you stay longer.

    you spend a ton of time progressing to fight a boss, if you could just simply fight the boss you would be done pretty fast and then what... keep fighting the boss over and over?

    because in a non mmo game you usually play the game for a couple months and then stop playing it as there isn't a constant progression really.

    even skyrim an amazingly fun game to explore and play, you can't just keep going over the same stuff and have the same fun.

    maybe progression is needed to keep you playing? or maybe they could just keep releasing new content to keep people playing instead, but is that realistic? seems alot more difficult that simply adding progression.

     

    aghhh my head hurts now. haha.

     

    You could have other forms of progression; exploration, acheivements, cosmetic rewards, skills, or just simply the fun of completing new stuff.  Afterall levels are a bit of a nonsense given that the mobs you fight are always (more or less) the same level as you (unless you enjoy hanging around low level zones showing off your shiny new weapon).  What I mean to say is that there is actually no requirement whatsoever for traditional levelling in an mmo.  

    but doesn't that just shift to somewhere else? "the themepark" of levelling shifts to the other stuff.

    because now i'm going through a linear path to reaching an achievement, or gearing up to fighting a boss, or whatever.

    or grinding a reputation, it's a very linear progression similar to the levels. it seems.

    i go to this dungeon, i wait for this drop... i fight this boss.

    or i gather these materials from these places.

     

    i guess i'm just not seeing how levels is that much different than the other.

    the same way i can't go to a level 40 zone and do stuff at level 20, i can't go fight the epic boss until i do this, i can't compete in pvp until i go through the linear progression to reach that point. *shrug*.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    It depends on how grindy the game is.  If you have FFXI levels of grinding, then yes, having to start over for a new class would be horrible.  If you have Guild Wars 1 levels of grinding, then you'll hit the level cap while you're still getting the hang of your class, so having to start over for a new class is no big deal.
  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by sxvs
     

    yeah, i also agree with that...

    maybe if someone can just make an mmo simply fun enough to play instead of where you played to progress, ie... you logged in just because it was fun to explore or fight a boss and you didn't have to progress.

    i think the problem they run into is how much fun can you have with it? you explore a continent pretty fast without any progression and then what? i guess the progression is what is supposed to be the block to make you stay longer.

    you spend a ton of time progressing to fight a boss, if you could just simply fight the boss you would be done pretty fast and then what... keep fighting the boss over and over?

    because in a non mmo game you usually play the game for a couple months and then stop playing it as there isn't a constant progression really.

    even skyrim an amazingly fun game to explore and play, you can't just keep going over the same stuff and have the same fun.

    maybe progression is needed to keep you playing? or maybe they could just keep releasing new content to keep people playing instead, but is that realistic? seems alot more difficult that simply adding progression.

     

    aghhh my head hurts now. haha.

     

    You could have other forms of progression; exploration, acheivements, cosmetic rewards, skills, or just simply the fun of completing new stuff.  Afterall levels are a bit of a nonsense given that the mobs you fight are always (more or less) the same level as you (unless you enjoy hanging around low level zones showing off your shiny new weapon).  What I mean to say is that there is actually no requirement whatsoever for traditional levelling in an mmo.  

    but doesn't that just shift to somewhere else? "the themepark" of levelling shifts to the other stuff.

    because now i'm going through a linear path to reaching an achievement, or gearing up to fighting a boss, or whatever.

    or grinding a reputation, it's a very linear progression similar to the levels. it seems.

    i go to this dungeon, i wait for this drop... i fight this boss.

    or i gather these materials from these places.

     

    i guess i'm just not seeing how levels is that much different than the other.

    the same way i can't go to a level 40 zone and do stuff at level 20, i can't go fight the epic boss until i do this, i can't compete in pvp until i go through the linear progression to reach that point. *shrug*.

    I guess there would need to be chains of events, but the above would simply allow you to use the entire map (think Skyrim), rather than have a level block on areas which means that you only ever use a small section of the map and ignore the vast majority of it at cap.  

  • sxvssxvs massillon, OHPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    It depends on how grindy the game is.  If you have FFXI levels of grinding, then yes, having to start over for a new class would be horrible.  If you have Guild Wars 1 levels of grinding, then you'll hit the level cap while you're still getting the hang of your class, so having to start over for a new class is no big deal.

    but why can't you go through the process without starting over i guess is what i don't understand.

    say you level up an elementalist to (don't know what the gw2 cap is) 40 or whatever, you feel like playing a thief.

    the current system makes you start a completely new character as a thief and level that up seperate from your elementalist.

     

    but why can't you start at level 1 with your elementalist character at 40, essentially you would be elementalist level 40 / and thief level 1.

    you would then level up thief starting from 1 but it wouldn't be with a completely new character, then if you wanted to go back to your elementalist you could switch back to your level 40 ele.

     

    then if you wanted to try necro, and say you leveled thief to 10.

    you would be a level 40 ele/level 10 thf/lvl 1 necro.

    since they don't combine classes like ffxi did it would be seperate from one another.

    in ffxi they did it where you would be like a 40ele/10thf combined but it doesn't have to be combined for it to work.

    it could just be seperate classes but with the same char and you can switch between them the same as if you had an alt.

  • MetanolMetanol TamperePosts: 247Member Uncommon

    To be honest, I like level progression when it's done right. See D&D 3rd edition (Example: Neverwinter Nights 2)

    But WoW-like leveling, where you are restricted to one class and a silly talent tree? Things could be done so much better. Rift however was a shining example of taking WoW -like leveling system, modifying it and giving players just enough freedom.

    I'm neutral towards completely free skill based RPG systems. They seem to always favour certain builds over anything else, and thus kind of ruin the immersion and the illusion of "freedom".

    We?re all dead, just say it.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sxvs
     

     

    but certainly a person could in theory learn different things, no? i mean a person who learned different languages could they also not study elsewhere?

    and you still have to go through the same process as if you created an alt, so what's the difference between a player levelling up a mage and then creating a new character and levelling up a warrior instead of using the same character to level up both?

    that person could also just have 2 level capped characters and be on his mage, and then logout and log in to his warrior... it seems more effecient that he could just have the 1 character and choose from  his classes, i would think.

    Because during game play you can't launch a series of fireballs, decimate the front ranks and then jump in with your sword devastating those who hid behind cover, then use your expert lock picking skills to open the greatest safe ever made.

    As you say, ou'd have to log in on all your characters to do it. And that's just ridiculous. How many times will someone have to log in and out and in again just to make it through an encounter? Most likely they will take their one character through and make due with their party members.

    To me, having one character doing everyting  is "everything but the kitchen sink" design.

    no one is special because "everyone is special".

     

  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by sxvs

     

    yeah, that's why i would be open to removing levels if other things were changed as well.. because it morphs into a level replacement on certain things.

    an example, you can only fight a certain boss if you have a certain requirement... how is that much different than needing to be a certain level to see a new zone?

    or obtaining specific loot that creates a gear disparity in which other playaers also try and match that gear level.

    it becomes confusing because some people seem to want you to have to work hard to obtain a certain thing, like you shouldn't be able to fight an epic boss unless you worked really hard to get to the point to defeat it, but isn't that sort of the same thing as going through the levels to reach "end game" just in a different way?

    or you obtain the epic gear of doom in pvp and have the advantage over others and everyone works to obtain that gear to reach that level, again it seems pretty similar to me... just like you can't go anywhere to explore you can't just pvp or see certain dungeons/bosses, you must first do this before or reach this point or requirement.

    it would seem to me if you one was to remove levels alot of stuff, ideals would also have to be changed with it.

     

    as to the other point i see what you mean, although that's making it fairly complicated, i just wanted to make it simple so you can play 1 character always.

    but i guess that type of thing could work as well, it's not that far off from the original ffxi system.

    Well the issue with levels is that they are a measure of power, and also progression that you can see as player, without compromising your character's appeance. Such as how you place armor/weapon/gear as progression you take away some ofthe customization of the character, since you now need to be wearing that certain gear (regardleess of how much you like the look or not.) to do that content. Yet in the same way levels also show you how skilled someone is in ways, such as how someone trained to survive in the wild will have a much higher chance of surviving compared to a novice.  In this way i would lvoe to see less of a fact of leveling a class, and more leveling aspects of a class might be more interesting. Such as a each class has several talents/profiencies in it that affect different parts of the classes duty or such (kinda like how a scientist specilize in different areas of study, and so woud fair differntly in them), kinda like talent trees . Also though like i said levels for many are a form of ruler that they gauge how they are progressing. 

     

    Also in ways i can see how level-based zones would make sense in that even on earth areas can be labeled in a scale of dangerousness. Such as how places near large population can be seen as quite protected an easy to survive in, while as you move farther away from population centters the diffulculty of surviving an also how dangerous the animals are increases. The issue i see though is not that zones have levels that make them worthless to upper-levels, but that you have no incentive or reasons to return to older content an zones. THings like having hidden high-level areas or instances within lower level zones, dynamic zones that as you level thru the game change allowing them to stay worthwhile longer.  I just think that content both zones,a nd instances need to have more varied about of levels that have reasons to go in, such as parts that are actually used by higher levels, hidden contnet, and like i said dynamic factors that make it not level 1-15 content by 1-15, 30-45,a nd cap content as well.

     

    Alot of the time when you make things simple people will find the perfect builds that will make everythign else sub-par, while complexity gives alot of options an also variation in playstyles without adding stand-alone things later. Mind you both systems will have people finding their optimal speccs or builds, it is more of a fact of how much fun and interesting aspects can be seeded in the system to keep people from jsut using the min-max builds, or just finding the system boring. I find many people love a simple system yet also that they find it some what bland, and in ways constraining as you have in many ways finite options for how to play (i was a D&D, and other such table top game layer.), and so the more variables that you can play off alot of the time the fun it will be longer.

  • OldskooOldskoo Minneapolis, MNPosts: 189Member
    In most MMO's I've enjoyed one of my favorite aspects was rolling alts. I like the feeling of having entirely different race/class combinations and the uniqueness (if done correctly) each character offers. I enjoy playing a dark elf necromancer some days, leveling up in their side of the world and through their quests, and having the option to play the good human paladin and experiencing what playing that character in their land has to offer on other days. I would be bored in having one character that could be everything but to each his own. 

    image

  • sxvssxvs massillon, OHPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by Oldskoo
    In most MMO's I've enjoyed one of my favorite aspects was rolling alts. I like the feeling of having entirely different race/class combinations and the uniqueness (if done correctly) each character offers. I enjoy playing a dark elf necromancer some days, leveling up in their side of the world and through their quests, and having the option to play the good human paladin and experiencing what playing that character in their land has to offer on other days. I would be bored in having one character that could be everything but to each his own. 

     

    fair enough, i can understand that.

    you could still do that however, you wouldn't be forced to only playing the one character like we're now forced into starting over.

    you might be at the disadvantage of having to logoff and get on your alts compared to those being able to switch without logging off tbut at least both options exist.

    if it had to be the other way around i'd be fine to be at a disadvantage with having only the 1 character as long as i actually had the choice.

     

  • goozmaniagoozmania chino, CAPosts: 145Member Uncommon

    I disagree. Having everyone capable of being everything makes group and raid play difficult, particularly for those who are forced to play with greedy people. Where in a regular class based game, a single character is a member of a raiding guild and he obviously only seeks equipment for his class; but this was much different in FFXI, where everyone seemed to want everything... Sure, you could force a player to only roll/bid for gear for the job in which he applied to his linkshell with, but this often caused drama like "I just wanted to play job C, but roll on Job A" or "I was only playing Job B, because ____ said we needed one" etc... Nevermind the ease of which people could cheat on their linkshells by simply equipping others; FFXI facilitated selfishness and greed.

    At least FFXI still had job distinction, though. Games where everyone has access to all skills at all times... I think those are simply solo games, and should stay that way.

  • SiderasSideras HelsingborgPosts: 231Member
    I usualy stop playing when I'm forced to start over for new horrible.
  • sxvssxvs massillon, OHPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by sxvs
     

     

    but certainly a person could in theory learn different things, no? i mean a person who learned different languages could they also not study elsewhere?

    and you still have to go through the same process as if you created an alt, so what's the difference between a player levelling up a mage and then creating a new character and levelling up a warrior instead of using the same character to level up both?

    that person could also just have 2 level capped characters and be on his mage, and then logout and log in to his warrior... it seems more effecient that he could just have the 1 character and choose from  his classes, i would think.

    Because during game play you can't launch a series of fireballs, decimate the front ranks and then jump in with your sword devastating those who hid behind cover, then use your expert lock picking skills to open the greatest safe ever made.

    As you say, ou'd have to log in on all your characters to do it. And that's just ridiculous. How many times will someone have to log in and out and in again just to make it through an encounter? Most likely they will take their one character through and make due with their party members.

    To me, having one character doing everyting  is "everything but the kitchen sink" design.

    no one is special because "everyone is special".

     

     

    well, you couldn't do all of that... there would be some restrictions.

    i forget how exactly ffxi did it but i don't think you could switch like that within battle or anything.

    you couldn't like pvp and be a mage and switch to something else in combat i don't think, it's been a while since i played so it's a bit foggy on the restrictions but i believe there was some sort of restriction where you couldn't do everything.

     

    you had to return to a home base or something to activate a new class.

     

     

  • sxvssxvs massillon, OHPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by Asuran24
    Originally posted by sxvs

     

    yeah, that's why i would be open to removing levels if other things were changed as well.. because it morphs into a level replacement on certain things.

    an example, you can only fight a certain boss if you have a certain requirement... how is that much different than needing to be a certain level to see a new zone?

    or obtaining specific loot that creates a gear disparity in which other playaers also try and match that gear level.

    it becomes confusing because some people seem to want you to have to work hard to obtain a certain thing, like you shouldn't be able to fight an epic boss unless you worked really hard to get to the point to defeat it, but isn't that sort of the same thing as going through the levels to reach "end game" just in a different way?

    or you obtain the epic gear of doom in pvp and have the advantage over others and everyone works to obtain that gear to reach that level, again it seems pretty similar to me... just like you can't go anywhere to explore you can't just pvp or see certain dungeons/bosses, you must first do this before or reach this point or requirement.

    it would seem to me if you one was to remove levels alot of stuff, ideals would also have to be changed with it.

     

    as to the other point i see what you mean, although that's making it fairly complicated, i just wanted to make it simple so you can play 1 character always.

    but i guess that type of thing could work as well, it's not that far off from the original ffxi system.

    Well the issue with levels is that they are a measure of power, and also progression that you can see as player, without compromising your character's appeance. Such as how you place armor/weapon/gear as progression you take away some ofthe customization of the character, since you now need to be wearing that certain gear (regardleess of how much you like the look or not.) to do that content. Yet in the same way levels also show you how skilled someone is in ways, such as how someone trained to survive in the wild will have a much higher chance of surviving compared to a novice.  In this way i would lvoe to see less of a fact of leveling a class, and more leveling aspects of a class might be more interesting. Such as a each class has several talents/profiencies in it that affect different parts of the classes duty or such (kinda like how a scientist specilize in different areas of study, and so woud fair differntly in them), kinda like talent trees . Also though like i said levels for many are a form of ruler that they gauge how they are progressing. 

     

    Also in ways i can see how level-based zones would make sense in that even on earth areas can be labeled in a scale of dangerousness. Such as how places near large population can be seen as quite protected an easy to survive in, while as you move farther away from population centters the diffulculty of surviving an also how dangerous the animals are increases. The issue i see though is not that zones have levels that make them worthless to upper-levels, but that you have no incentive or reasons to return to older content an zones. THings like having hidden high-level areas or instances within lower level zones, dynamic zones that as you level thru the game change allowing them to stay worthwhile longer.  I just think that content both zones,a nd instances need to have more varied about of levels that have reasons to go in, such as parts that are actually used by higher levels, hidden contnet, and like i said dynamic factors that make it not level 1-15 content by 1-15, 30-45,a nd cap content as well.

     

    Alot of the time when you make things simple people will find the perfect builds that will make everythign else sub-par, while complexity gives alot of options an also variation in playstyles without adding stand-alone things later. Mind you both systems will have people finding their optimal speccs or builds, it is more of a fact of how much fun and interesting aspects can be seeded in the system to keep people from jsut using the min-max builds, or just finding the system boring. I find many people love a simple system yet also that they find it some what bland, and in ways constraining as you have in many ways finite options for how to play (i was a D&D, and other such table top game layer.), and so the more variables that you can play off alot of the time the fun it will be longer.

     

    correct me if i'm wrong but i think the summary of that is options, more options.

    not wanting there to be 1 simple way you were forced into but a multitude of options available to.

    i'm all for that! the main thing i want more of in mmo's is options/choices!

  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by goozmania

    I disagree. Having everyone capable of being everything makes group and raid play difficult, particularly for those who are forced to play with greedy people. Where in a regular class based game, a single character is a member of a raiding guild and he obviously only seeks equipment for his class; but this was much different in FFXI, where everyone seemed to want everything... Sure, you could force a player to only roll/bid for gear for the job in which he applied to his linkshell with, but this often caused drama like "I just wanted to play job C, but roll on Job A" or "I was only playing Job B, because ____ said we needed one" etc... Nevermind the ease of which people could cheat on their linkshells by simply equipping others; FFXI facilitated selfishness and greed.

    At least FFXI still had job distinction, though. Games where everyone has access to all skills at all times... I think those are simply solo games, and should stay that way.

    Though you could also make it that gear is useful for all classes/builds in that all stats have a largely equal effect on your character in many ways, this way when you go into a instance it is about what is needed to complete the content, while having the gear you gain useful for all involved that way everyone has a shot at gear from a run (the issue that some gear types normally are more offen seen such as dps gear compared to healing or tanking gear). Although you could also make it that you gain speclized gear from your role by hhaving it crafted/upgraded by crafters, so you get generic gear item A largely has all stats needed for any class, and then with soem mats crafter bob shifts the generic item's focus to what the person desires. 

     

    Though all systems have issues, a single character system that allows you to swtch out your character between many clases allows you to fill what is needed in content without having to spend extra time grinding/leveling, yet makes all gear appealing for that player to grab as they can use it for anythign they are playing largely.. WHile in a fixed one class per character system the gear is less likely to be taken by someone who is not of that class, but it is also less likely to see certain less liked classes as well (such as tanks or healer, even supporters.) since specific classes/roles are more liked than others. Even in a class-less system you had the issue that players can see use for all gear they see, as they can switch to a role or specc that utilizes it in some way, allowing them to fill more roles (ala tsw.). 

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by sxvs
     

     

    but certainly a person could in theory learn different things, no? i mean a person who learned different languages could they also not study elsewhere?

    and you still have to go through the same process as if you created an alt, so what's the difference between a player levelling up a mage and then creating a new character and levelling up a warrior instead of using the same character to level up both?

    that person could also just have 2 level capped characters and be on his mage, and then logout and log in to his warrior... it seems more effecient that he could just have the 1 character and choose from  his classes, i would think.

    Because during game play you can't launch a series of fireballs, decimate the front ranks and then jump in with your sword devastating those who hid behind cover, then use your expert lock picking skills to open the greatest safe ever made.

    As you say, ou'd have to log in on all your characters to do it. And that's just ridiculous. How many times will someone have to log in and out and in again just to make it through an encounter? Most likely they will take their one character through and make due with their party members.

    To me, having one character doing everyting  is "everything but the kitchen sink" design.

    no one is special because "everyone is special".

     

     

    well, you couldn't do all of that... there would be some restrictions.

    i forget how exactly ffxi did it but i don't think you could switch like that within battle or anything.

    you couldn't like pvp and be a mage and switch to something else in combat i don't think, it's been a while since i played so it's a bit foggy on the restrictions but i believe there was some sort of restriction where you couldn't do everything.

     

    you had to return to a home base or something to activate a new class.

    You had to return to mog house, in FFXIV you change anywhere as long as you are not engaged.

     

    Of course no where could you do what Sovrath is describing (changing in the middle of combat), and if he never saw anyone switch to an alt in an MMO to do certain content I imagine he hasn't been playing MMO's for very long (or in groups with others at least).

     

    No one is "special" in an MMO.  Some people have progressed to a certain point that others haven't, whether it is through alts or jobs that person has more options available to them.  Some games just force people to have to create new characters and redo a bunch of extraneous content not at all tied to different jobs.

     

    It is extremely tedious, but then most MMO's have such little or poor quality mid game content that they probably want to do everything possible to discourage you from experiencing it again as a different class.

  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by Asuran24
    Originally posted by sxvs

     

    yeah, that's why i would be open to removing levels if other things were changed as well.. because it morphs into a level replacement on certain things.

    an example, you can only fight a certain boss if you have a certain requirement... how is that much different than needing to be a certain level to see a new zone?

    or obtaining specific loot that creates a gear disparity in which other playaers also try and match that gear level.

    it becomes confusing because some people seem to want you to have to work hard to obtain a certain thing, like you shouldn't be able to fight an epic boss unless you worked really hard to get to the point to defeat it, but isn't that sort of the same thing as going through the levels to reach "end game" just in a different way?

    or you obtain the epic gear of doom in pvp and have the advantage over others and everyone works to obtain that gear to reach that level, again it seems pretty similar to me... just like you can't go anywhere to explore you can't just pvp or see certain dungeons/bosses, you must first do this before or reach this point or requirement.

    it would seem to me if you one was to remove levels alot of stuff, ideals would also have to be changed with it.

     

    as to the other point i see what you mean, although that's making it fairly complicated, i just wanted to make it simple so you can play 1 character always.

    but i guess that type of thing could work as well, it's not that far off from the original ffxi system.

    Well the issue with levels is that they are a measure of power, and also progression that you can see as player, without compromising your character's appeance. Such as how you place armor/weapon/gear as progression you take away some ofthe customization of the character, since you now need to be wearing that certain gear (regardleess of how much you like the look or not.) to do that content. Yet in the same way levels also show you how skilled someone is in ways, such as how someone trained to survive in the wild will have a much higher chance of surviving compared to a novice.  In this way i would lvoe to see less of a fact of leveling a class, and more leveling aspects of a class might be more interesting. Such as a each class has several talents/profiencies in it that affect different parts of the classes duty or such (kinda like how a scientist specilize in different areas of study, and so woud fair differntly in them), kinda like talent trees . Also though like i said levels for many are a form of ruler that they gauge how they are progressing. 

     

    Also in ways i can see how level-based zones would make sense in that even on earth areas can be labeled in a scale of dangerousness. Such as how places near large population can be seen as quite protected an easy to survive in, while as you move farther away from population centters the diffulculty of surviving an also how dangerous the animals are increases. The issue i see though is not that zones have levels that make them worthless to upper-levels, but that you have no incentive or reasons to return to older content an zones. THings like having hidden high-level areas or instances within lower level zones, dynamic zones that as you level thru the game change allowing them to stay worthwhile longer.  I just think that content both zones,a nd instances need to have more varied about of levels that have reasons to go in, such as parts that are actually used by higher levels, hidden contnet, and like i said dynamic factors that make it not level 1-15 content by 1-15, 30-45,a nd cap content as well.

     

    Alot of the time when you make things simple people will find the perfect builds that will make everythign else sub-par, while complexity gives alot of options an also variation in playstyles without adding stand-alone things later. Mind you both systems will have people finding their optimal speccs or builds, it is more of a fact of how much fun and interesting aspects can be seeded in the system to keep people from jsut using the min-max builds, or just finding the system boring. I find many people love a simple system yet also that they find it some what bland, and in ways constraining as you have in many ways finite options for how to play (i was a D&D, and other such table top game layer.), and so the more variables that you can play off alot of the time the fun it will be longer.

     

    correct me if i'm wrong but i think the summary of that is options, more options.

    not wanting there to be 1 simple way you were forced into but a multitude of options available to.

    i'm all for that! the main thing i want more of in mmo's is options/choices!

    Oh yes i am always an advocate of option, and choices in areas that they make sense in, though in other areas i think a stringent hold on keeping thigns very structured an controlled is needed too. Such as with class blances, how people in their roles can contribute to a group, and just how you act in a game too.

     

    Well one reason i knwo many make you re-roll is to keep the population in the pre-cap level higher than if you did not have to, as new players need people to play with too, as well that the more the content is played the more it pays off how much it cost (both money, and time/man-power) to create it (like how older raid content  was not seen ny as many of the players in the game which lead to many seeing it as a waste of man-power till they opened it up to more people. So also in a one character all class concept you will need to find more ways of keeping pre-cap content populated.

  • sxvssxvs massillon, OHPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by sxvs
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by sxvs
     

     

    but certainly a person could in theory learn different things, no? i mean a person who learned different languages could they also not study elsewhere?

    and you still have to go through the same process as if you created an alt, so what's the difference between a player levelling up a mage and then creating a new character and levelling up a warrior instead of using the same character to level up both?

    that person could also just have 2 level capped characters and be on his mage, and then logout and log in to his warrior... it seems more effecient that he could just have the 1 character and choose from  his classes, i would think.

    Because during game play you can't launch a series of fireballs, decimate the front ranks and then jump in with your sword devastating those who hid behind cover, then use your expert lock picking skills to open the greatest safe ever made.

    As you say, ou'd have to log in on all your characters to do it. And that's just ridiculous. How many times will someone have to log in and out and in again just to make it through an encounter? Most likely they will take their one character through and make due with their party members.

    To me, having one character doing everyting  is "everything but the kitchen sink" design.

    no one is special because "everyone is special".

     

     

    well, you couldn't do all of that... there would be some restrictions.

    i forget how exactly ffxi did it but i don't think you could switch like that within battle or anything.

    you couldn't like pvp and be a mage and switch to something else in combat i don't think, it's been a while since i played so it's a bit foggy on the restrictions but i believe there was some sort of restriction where you couldn't do everything.

     

    you had to return to a home base or something to activate a new class.

    You had to return to mog house, in FFXIV you change anywhere as long as you are not engaged.

     

    Of course no where could you do what Sovrath is describing (changing in the middle of combat), and if he never saw anyone switch to an alt in an MMO to do certain content I imagine he hasn't been playing MMO's for very long (or in groups with others at least).

     

    No one is "special" in an MMO.  Some people have progressed to a certain point that others haven't, whether it is through alts or jobs that person has more options available to them.  Some games just force people to have to create new characters and redo a bunch of extraneous content not at all tied to different jobs.

     

    It is extremely tedious, but then most MMO's have such little or poor quality mid game content that they probably want to do everything possible to discourage you from experiencing it again as a different class.

     

    furthermore i think it's actually more "special" to spend all time with your 1 character.

    when i quit ffxi i actually cried, i'm not ashamed to admit because i spent all of my time with this 1 taru-taru character and built such a bond with the character over 2 and a half years.

    never cared as much for a character in an mmo than i did with that one.

    i think it actually makes it less special to have 6 different characters or whatever versus 1 character.

     

    in comparison i recently quit warcraft after like 6-7 years and probably a hundred alts at least and didn't care anything about any of them really... just basically quit the game without much of a bang.

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