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For RvR or wPvP, how does a game balance combat not to turn into a Zerg fest all time?
I think it's important to have an indepth discussion of combat, landscape and even possible rewards or risks to gear the thought process in the right direction. It's basically setting the tone of the discussion and discussing from that context.
For example the tone is from a sand box Mmo. What are the definitions that we agree upon to gear the discussion to an agreed upon context. What are the rewards? Are their full loot from corpses?
Also strategy in the game. Is there a way to make combat in its natural state in the open world feel strategic and not just a Zerg fest? For example what if there are timers to certain alternative locations splitting up groups for missions to take down a fort. For example a fort has several secret entrances, and their importance can explain their existence, but in doing so, it adds strategy to seiging by allowing small parties to try to make difference by breaking through certain points.
Also combat in general, is it action based with some dodging? How are the classes balanced? Do all classes have a method to flee combat? Mage can teleport. Rogue go invisible. Tank can stun, but maybe is the most vulnerable forcing them to group, but also one of the most important classes for seiging. So how can a tank venture into some pve alone?
Maybe introduce detect stealth options. Or have NPC's alignment and traveling in safe areas to reach a destination but once in the open off the road are vulnerable.
There is a lot of context to agree upon before making too many specific recommendations.
For example, maybe rvr is meant to be about numbers. However, there can be tournaments help by the king to allow for strategic combat.
Or what about side activities? How about something easy to add like gambling?
The reason why something like gambling is important because it is an example of what is missing in Mmos imo. We need fun alternatives to a simulated reality which are also tied in with the game.
It keeps players interested, but also makes money have a fun alternative. Money in game should not only be about buying drive equipment or weapons/armor for combat but a multitude of other things such as gambling, bounties on other players, buying houses etc.
I am going to say as wonderful as rvr can be, and as indepth as crafting could be, that without fun money sinks that depth to the game such as gambling, player bounties, and player housing then this game will struggle too much.
Also, the game should target a mature audience. This the right direction for his 'smart' audience who will do research into a complex virtual reality. So there should be gore in the game, and profanity when it is fitting. I would say nudity as well, but that can be added later, I am not interested in nudity but a mature world that feels real.
A real world has gambling, bounties, gore and profanity. Maybe even make the game political and religious. Make each faction xenophobic to the other and against their beliefs as to add context and some faction pride.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Mixed feelings myself on this, similar to MJ. Had some damn good times as a stealther and also hated playing against them.
In WAR my buddy and I rolled stealthers and in the PvP scenario things as soon as we joined our team would shout "Asoda and Apop are here, we win!" - and it was always a landslide. We would just stealth together and focus our targets and take people down so fast... two stealthers should not be able to wreak that much havoc, but we did. It felt great seeing people so excited to have us on their side! Damn those were some fun times. That was even the timed stealth or whatever! I can't imagine perma stealth, but either way there needs to be a balance...
I know Vanguard is not a PvP game, but the way they do stealth is pretty interesting. Everyone has a "stealth detection skill" and when you are near invis enemies, it slowly goes up - kind of as a warning, but also as you raise your skill level in it, you can see the white bodies of the invis enemies. Further you level it up, the further you can kind of detect invis peeps. I think that could work pretty well in a PvP way personally. My 2 cents...
I really hope CU has skil gaining in weapons, swimming, parry, dodge, etc. etc. stats limited by your level and class.
IMO this is such a massive choice its gonna pee people off either way.
We are making a RVR game here and i do understand the time contraints alot of people have and a perma stealth does give you a better chance to dip in and out of the game, you can afk at will, you just head to a zone wall where there is no traffic and afk wait for timers and come back. Hence they guy alot of pages back saying he didnt die in days, i could bet he prob only attacked when all his timers were up.
I think the real discussion should be how can we make it so that stealthers rather than sit waiting for stragglers outside of portal keeps or ambush zones, actually push hard into the enemy and cause mayhem within the keeps/ give feedback on numbers and possible oppurtunitys to out wit the enemy. DAOC never reward assasins for doing such action, and perhaps that should be looked at as a point of change.
As for archers with stealth i really think if they want them to have stealth there range should be shorter than daoc.
I really love the idea of camo as stealth but that would stop assasins and such ever pushing hard on the enemy, In the early days that was vital to stop them pesky healers hiding eveywhere free casting there beloved spread heals.
Edit; Its really hard to balance because you cant stop people from grouping on whateva they want, but having 8 people all invis and working toghter with massive burst dps and the element of surpirse, often agaisnt inferior numbers, is a quit point
I've said in the past that perma-stealth is cheap and needs to die, but after thinking about how the RvR foodchain worked in DAoC I changed my mind.
Stealthers are the main reason why soloers / small groups existed in DAoC. The biggest reason for a soloer/small group to go out of ATK towards AMG was to find stealthers to kill. Without perma-stealth, there would be no soloers, no small groups, only 8v8 and zerg vs zerg, and RvR would be a whole lot less exciting.
tl;dr we need stealthers with perma-stealth and they need to be unwanted in RvR groups. Also CU must warn players that they are about to make a solo class at char creation.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
I know Vanguard is not a PvP game, but the way they do stealth is pretty interesting. Everyone has a "stealth detection skill" and when you are near invis enemies, it slowly goes up - kind of as a warning, but also as you raise your skill level in it, you can see the white bodies of the invis enemies. Further you level it up, the further you can kind of detect invis peeps. I think that could work pretty well in a PvP way personally. My 2 cents...”
I think having stealth detection similar to this would work for all players. Or perhaps you receive a message that stated “your being stalked” or “you feel a presents lurking in the shadows”. Then just PBAE no more rogue.
I think the real discussion should be how can we make it so that stealthers rather than sit waiting for stragglers outside of portal keeps or ambush zones, actually push hard into the enemy and cause mayhem within the keeps/ give feedback on numbers and possible oppurtunitys to out wit the enemy. DAOC never reward assasins for doing such action, and perhaps that should be looked at as a point of change.”
This would be great for RvR.
tl;dr we need stealthers with perma-stealth and they need to be unwanted in RvR groups. Also CU must warn players that they are about to make a solo class at char creation.”
This is a good idea for rogues IF perma stealth is implemented. A true assassin should be a loner. RvR raid would still want them if nothing else for the scouting ability and intel.
Also, reading through other posts it seems a lot of individuals are afraid of stealth being OP’d from the RAs given in DAoC. Why not simply not allow those types of RAs for a stealth build? Mark already told use progression will not be the same as RAs were in DAoC. Who is to say that when building your character for stealth that the player has a much narrower tree to acquire abilities in, if CU uses the same spec type as DAoC or other MMOs?
Originally posted by keygan I would like to see stealth like planetside 1. If u stand still ur invis. If u walk u can see stealthers if u look or they move by/near you. If they crawl walk it is very hard but not impossible to notice them. And if you run it drains ur stamina and is super easy to see. It also costs stamina to move in stealth so you have to either crawl walk or stop moving to regain stamina. Just an idea so it isn't just easy mode. But I could take it any way really
I agree with you. The stealth in Planetside was good.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMkDark Age of Camelot
Based on some of the hate posts, its clear that a good amount of people ahve nevger faced a stealthed player in a pvp world. Good thing not adding stealth would kill a huge potental of income for this new game. Meaning, stealth will be in the upcoming game. Stealth is in almost every mmo. Saying its going to break a game or this one is silly. I question anyones experience and playstyle who is anti stealth.
I mean seriously, people act like a stealther can kill a group of people alone or that they should dictate how a paying customer spends their time in a mmo. Lets stop being silly.
Also regarding this silly mode crap. I can attest from experience that I argued with peopel who said it was easy mode. I then challenged them to roll a stealther and come out to the areas that I would work alone or with Time. Most of them couldnt get any kills and became frustrated really quick. Easy mode, ha yea ok. Let's see you do it successfully.
Currently playing:RiftPlayed:SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of CamelotWorld of Warcraft, AoC
If enough guys invest in CU via kickstarter that want the original DAOC stealth than I'm sure that is how it would be. Not only because of the many voices being heard behind the scenes but because it seems Mark is all for past challenges and game play that isn't dumbed down.
As a past RVR player in daoc, stealthers or even a group of stealthers blocking a wall, say the alb wall in emain. They were never a threat to reasonable force of players, they simply picked off the lone wolfs or small 2-3 player groups. At the same time it created a nice element if you were some what vulnerable. A dangerous "oh crap" element. Are there stealthers around? who knows. Its nice having that sense of unknowing which creates excitment and anticipation.
To most saying Stealth is an unfair advantage, perhaps but if you ever played a stealther than you know they take huge damage. Low armor class, low health etc...A skilled inf/sb/ns that could rotate poisons on multiple weapons was a tough foe but that also took more skill. A low skilled stealther died like a glass cannon.
Ps. I don't play stealthers. But I am 100% for original DAOC stealth.
Originally posted by Ecoces haven't read the whole debate but stealth is a skill-less crutch that needs to die and be gone from MMOs.
Negative. Its a playstyle. If you ever played classic DAOC you would know this. You would also know stealthers played scouting roles etc...The mechanic fit well in that game world. The game thrived with full untimed stealth. The only complainers were the occasional solo people who got ganked by a stealther. There was also stealth wars with-in the game, rival shadowblades hunting down an infiltrator in the area while non-stealth classes battled in open terrain.
Again I didn't play a stealth back in classic daoc but not once ever minded the fact that they existed all around me. Did I ever venture out alone into the dangerous RVR area? sure but I knew there was a good chance that a stealther or two would jump me. But when I rolled around in my 8man wrecking crew we never once saw a stealther. They knew better.
Bear "replicant" Powell"I am Shaolin-Style!"
These kinds of questions need polls.
I agree, and support the DAOC style of stealther.
Not Op'd and not a useless gimp,
and that's exactly what they are.
Originally posted by CyborWolfTK These kinds of questions need polls. I agree, and support the DAOC style of stealther. Not Op'd and not a useless gimp, and that's exactly what they are.
Yeah thought about putting a poll up but its too easy just to click no or yes and provide no explanation. A large % of the "No"'s to Untimed stealth like daoc have just been "stealth sucks" "stealth is archaic" "stealth is OP". "stun lock + stealth is OP". Basically just "i hate stealth" or "I was a stealther and they are OP" etc. Some of the % of the no's explain why they feel that way, but most are just flat out No's with very minimal explanation.
So I wanted people to write their opinions as opposed to just clicking no on something. What I've found from this thread/discussion is basically a lot (keep in mind i said a lot, not all) of the people that don't like un-timed stealth fall into two categories: They just hate stealth and provide no explanation OR they hate stealth in conjunction with some skill that makes them feel its unfair. (IE its unfair cuz this guy can attack me while he's invisible and its not fair). Well what the guy really might hate is the crit shot, the stun, or some other skills they dont like(I've told people don't include wow stunlocks cuz yes its lame and this is strictly pointed at DAOC).
I've tried to point out that stealth in and of itself doesn't kill people. Some guys have said they dont like stealth but feel its necessary etc. Well, in closing, we have had a ton of great replies from both parties, some of whom had good feedback so please make a full readthrough. But I wanted to avoid raw number "i hate this", or "I love this" polling.
(Side note: Yes i know people have the option to do the poll AND write their opinion, but i really just wanted to use this as a forum for a lengthy discussion to find people's mentalities behind why they love/hate untimed stealth, and not use a "random sample" to come up with what should be done. But dont get me wrong, random samples do work sometimes, but in this case, the issue was too complex to start off with a poll. I wish there was a way that we could both poll and require a written response but we can't. Kind of like making a poll on, do you want mez in this game. All the mezzers would be like hell yeah, vote yes, and then there would be a majority that would be like hell no, we don't want mez. etc. when the issue is actually deeper than yes/no.
Originally posted by Seitr I personally hope for a DAoC style stealth system. Sure, I had my fair share of frustrations with being killed almost instantly, but i also soloed multiple Infs with my dark SM as well as with my savage without a problem.
Last time I played my Savage the only thing he could kill was himself. !
I loved Dark Age stealth.
I loved how there were so many 1v1 ,2v2 ,2v1 , etc, fights in the thick of a large scale battle. I loved how a Minstral could stealth then throw a stun or mezz , rather than attack directly. Stealth is not just for pure gankage and has a unique use for many classes, not just the SBs, Infs and NSs in Dark Age. Oh right all archers could pop stealth , fight hand to hand , not just shoot arrows as well.
I have a strong feeling when Mark starts to talk about the CC in Camelot Unchained, the threads in the forums will make this entire thread look like a paragraph. CC in Dark Age was a HUGE factor for players in large and smaller groups cancelling out many advatages 8 man groups or stealthers had. In the case of the stealthers, if they missed thier mark, were popped, or wrong place wrong time, one stun, bash or mezz was all it took to get anyone out of a situation , or kill the threat. One missed CC gave the stealther a fighting chance. No escape button for a stealther, basically a players skill and characters abilities. Such a fun system!
CC in Camelot Unchained will be a game changer. Not Stealth. Dark Age stealth all the way!
I believe stealth has a role in RvR.
I spent many a night in Emain on my hunter, scouting and reporting enemy movement to the battlegroups. Most nights I made little to none realmpoints, died a lot, but was happy because I felt like I contributed to Midgard's war effort.
It is important to distinguish between the different archetypes and their roles:
Minstrel: Making them a stealth class caused several problems; Albion did not have a group-speed class, making most groups rely on caster-speed buffs. Second, minstrels had many tools, and after a while SoS to get away if things got rough (hunters and rangers also had something similar, but far less effective, and broke on taking damage).
Assassins: PA was a pain for everyone as it was nearly impossible to avoid, and did huge damage. It angered me as well. The key to assassin success was quick kills and fast get aways. Vanish and See Hidden was annoying for archers, and I cannot imagine the frustration of non-stealthers, but Vanish was of little use against hunters and rangers especially. What was a problem for me was the fact that assassins could switch weapons to reapply poisons right after I purged them, forcing me to save Purge until right before I used IP to make the most of it.
Archers: These classes were a mixed bag. Archers had few options beside their bow-spec, and most hunters/rangers ended up going melee-spec. Hunters' pets was more of an annoyance before they got boosted beyond what the hunter community asked for, so that was a bad decision. Archers' crit-shot ability hit hard, but required their target to stand still and not be in combat, so they usually targeted casters ( who had blade-turn and eventually brittle guards to protect them). Any shields would block the majority of arrows, and even using the Guard ability would shield a caster/healer from most arrows.
Albion stealth squads had advantage since they had access to minstrels for CC and small heals (if I recall correctly), as well as Scouts having the longest range of all bows. Hib/Mid stealth squads were usually no problem for groups.
Somone mentioned that one-shot kills did not destealth, but this was removed ( and should never have been implemented in the game in the first place).
The question is how to implement stealth to make it "fair". Few true stealthers want to be OP, but we also want a fighting chance WHEN we decide to engage. Please remember that we often circled around the area for a while in search of the optimal position.
Also, most stealthers don't want to rule the world (we would have rolled casters, if so), but we want to be a part of it. I hope there is a place for us, and remember that the stealth wars took place away from everyone else.
Imo the best stealth mechanic is that of Planetside 2, if they didn't always mess up the graphic settings so badly on it.
That mechanic without timer would be best for mmo.
Meaning: there is stealth, and there is no timer, HOWEVER it is not completely invisible especially if you are moving, just semi-transparent and makes it harder to see and untargetable (must use targetless attacks to knock it out of stealth). That's how stealth should be.
Originally posted by time007 Originally posted by CyborWolfTK These kinds of questions need polls. I agree, and support the DAOC style of stealther. Not Op'd and not a useless gimp, and that's exactly what they are.
Which part of the Stealth destroys ability for any other class to solo did you not get?
I think I just figured out how to win this thread. Ok, some of you want "stealth" cool, every class gets the same stealth abilities. All even, we cool now?
Seriously, being stealthy, or even predator like transparent is a LONG LONG way away from being entirely invisible to the human eye. Say it out loud and tell me it sounds logical.
"When I go invisible my character can not be seen by others and I can walk up to them and attack them first."