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For a series known for its amazing PvE - why so focused on PvP for ESO?

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  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by bobm111

    lets at least be honest. the rvr heros and wannabe pvpers are trying to hi-jack a game which has its roots in morrowind and its follow ups. none were pvp.... but pve and lore rich.

    And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

    Otherwise you will be destroying a great game with a great history and lore.

    Make this a mmorpg

    based on its roots and history with a entire world to explore and a myriad of races and opportunities

    I could see that, over at the Bethesda forums there are a bunch of white knights defending ESO with 2012 join dates.  Suddenly everyone is long time TES fan and wants them to recreate DAoC... I just don't buy it.

    Mark Jacobs is already making DAoC2 which makes ESO look even more like a cheap knock-off.  Matt gets his first big break as a game director and he instantly tries to create his version of DAoC at no consideration to the TES franchise.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by bobm111

    And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

    One correction in your statment, the studio which is working on the game is under one company which owns both Bethesda and zenimax.  Both companies are working closely together to create a game that has Lore that is very specific to the Elders scrolls world, Bethesda has its hand in everything except for High level decisions which is done my Zenimax's lead designer/Pvp designer. 

    Do you have a link for that?  They said they 'worked' with Bethesda's Todd Howard for advice but they do not work closely with Bethesda.  They don't even clairify that Todd even approves of their direction.  The company has rights to the IP and chances are the Lore guys that work on TES is working on TES 6 whereas Zenimax hired writers to convert the lore to fit their DAoC RvR system.

  • ChakaCanChakaCan San Antonio, TXPosts: 22Member

    I don't mind having a PvP area in this game, BUT the PvE in the Elder's scrolls game was amazing!  I would literally get jumped by creatures.  I haven't had npcs do that to me since Everquest. 

    So I hope this MMO isn't like WOW, Tera, and others where creatures just stand around like bowling pins to knock down.

    I believe that's why they do PVP, so they don't have to actually do awesome AI for npcs.

  • bobm111bobm111 RobertsforsPosts: 153Member
    Originally posted by Majix

    I don't mind having a PvP area in this game, BUT the PvE in the Elder's scrolls game was amazing!  I would literally get jumped by creatures.  I haven't had npcs do that to me since Everquest. 

    So I hope this MMO isn't like WOW, Tera, and others where creatures just stand around like bowling pins to knock down.

    I believe that's why they do PVP, so they don't have to actually do awesome AI for npcs.

    Nor do i have anything against pvp. Im sure that they could make both a pve, pvp,and rp server so that people can choose.

    But please dont devide up the world so people have to make 3 chars to experience the entire world .

  • LaromussLaromuss vancouver, BCPosts: 324Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by bobm111

    And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

    One correction in your statment, the studio which is working on the game is under one company which owns both Bethesda and zenimax.  Both companies are working closely together to create a game that has Lore that is very specific to the Elders scrolls world, Bethesda has its hand in everything except for High level decisions which is done my Zenimax's lead designer/Pvp designer. 

    Do you have a link for that?  They said they 'worked' with Bethesda's Todd Howard for advice but they do not work closely with Bethesda.  They don't even clairify that Todd even approves of their direction.  The company has rights to the IP and chances are the Lore guys that work on TES is working on TES 6 whereas Zenimax hired writers to convert the lore to fit their DAoC RvR system.

    http://tamrielfoundry.com/development-faq/

    look for the section in the first part 

    Zenimax Media is the parent company which owns both Zenimax Online Studios and Bethesda Game Studios. The two sibling studios have a close working relationship which has allowed ZOS to collaborate effectively with Bethesda in order to maintain internal consistency in lore, geography, and art design. Todd Howard is personally involved to sign off on major decisions regarding the direction of the IP.(GI1),(GI2)

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gaeanprayer
    ESO has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls besides the lore. You may as well forget ESO even has the Elder Scrolls title, if you don't you're only setting yourself up for disappointing. It's developed by a separate studio, that has not made an Elder Scrolls game, headed by someone that has never made an Elder Scrolls game (you'll find this theme a lot). Approach it like an entirely new game, because that's exactly what it is. Make no mistake, this is an MMO that had already been developed on paper, with the Elder Scrolls name tacked on to get the fans interested. That's going to be their downfall, the game sounds good on its own but no matter how many times they tell people not to, fans are going to approach this like an MMO version of Skyrim, and it couldn't be further from that.

    Absolutely.

     

    Oblivion sold 3.5 million copies in the 5 years after it was released. Skyrim sold 3.5 million copies in the first week after release. It's a strong IP.

    Even though neither of those games featured PvP in any way. When I think of TES games, PvP is not the first thought that comes to mind. Far from it.

    There's a lot of potential for consumer backlash here if the millions of fans don't like the RvR focus and the design decisions that are made to support it.

     

    It's a bit like making a MMORPG called "Call of Duty Online", which has a heavy focus on PVE, specially at endgame... image

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Margulis
     Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series.  So why would that not be the main focus?  

    Because they arent so much making an Elder Scrolls game as they are making a sequal to DaoC.

    If The Elder Scrolls was their focus, it would be completely open world, wouldnt force factions, wouldnt limit races to factions, wouldnt close off  areas to opposing factions and sure as hell wouldnt be allowing us to take over the PvP areas and elect our own emporers...

    All hail Legolazz shootnurface of Lolz guild.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • bobm111bobm111 RobertsforsPosts: 153Member
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by bobm111

    And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

    One correction in your statment, the studio which is working on the game is under one company which owns both Bethesda and zenimax.  Both companies are working closely together to create a game that has Lore that is very specific to the Elders scrolls world, Bethesda has its hand in everything except for High level decisions which is done my Zenimax's lead designer/Pvp designer. 

    Do you have a link for that?  They said they 'worked' with Bethesda's Todd Howard for advice but they do not work closely with Bethesda.  They don't even clairify that Todd even approves of their direction.  The company has rights to the IP and chances are the Lore guys that work on TES is working on TES 6 whereas Zenimax hired writers to convert the lore to fit their DAoC RvR system.

    http://tamrielfoundry.com/development-faq/

    Appears you are right mate the parent company explicitly makes it clear they want a doac game with morrowwind lore. There game there choice but i wont play it as im not interested in a doac clone in morrowwind lore but interested in a mmorpg which is based on morrowwind lore. a single world without any restrictions to adventure in. But gl but many people will not play it because it is a doac clone

    look for the section in the first part 

    Zenimax Media is the parent company which owns both Zenimax Online Studios and Bethesda Game Studios. The two sibling studios have a close working relationship which has allowed ZOS to collaborate effectively with Bethesda in order to maintain internal consistency in lore, geography, and art design. Todd Howard is personally involved to sign off on major decisions regarding the direction of the IP.(GI1),(GI2)

     

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by gaeanprayer
    ESO has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls besides the lore. 

    And not even that.

    The game is supposed to be taking place during 2E, yet amazingly enough even though the lore states that not even after the fall of the last protector of the empire did any other faction invade imperial lands until SEPTIM himself came alone...in this game, not only will all sides invade imperial lands, we will be able to elect our own emperor...

    worse yet, of the 3 factions only ONE of them was ever any real threat to the imperials...yet all 3 will be made equal.

    So no, they are not even sticking to the lore, they are bastardizing it as much as everything else about the series. Beautiful elves?!? WTF.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon

    image

    Three faction RvR is the focus.

    The reason is Matt Firor.

     

    How to post links.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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  • General_Dru-ZodGeneral_Dru-Zod Unknown, CAPosts: 136Member
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by General_Dru-Zod
    Originally posted by Karteli

    PVP is cheap endgame content, whereas PVE needs to be constantly added to.

     

    PVE generally has a hate following as well by casuals who want everything the quality guilds have, yet without working towards them in a multiplayer environment.  WoW tried to make the casuals like their game by giving them top level epics via soloable content (crafting, dailies, rep grinds)... then the guilds who overcame those impossible achievements were upset.  "Hardcore" players quit and WoW was left a shamble of what it used to be, but still a haven for casuals. [hence why you see all those posts about WoW being great during Vanilla and Burning Crusade].

     

    PVP can be a mixed bag if the gear is obtained through repetition instead of skill.  Think resilience, expertise, or any other PVP mechanic to differentiate PVP gear qualities.

     

    Since TESO will be a casual players themepark game, the least offensive situation would be to eliminate PVE and make the game about PVP skill.  PVE exists to get TES fans to buy the game, but not to stay.

     

    My take on it anyways - I could be wrong, but seems like that is how Zenimax derived their game.

    PvP doesnt discriminate... If you know the insides and out of the charater your playing an your foe just as equally, knowing the habits of foe and timing.. you can defeat your opponent.

    However PvE, going against a controlled AI knowing the insides and outs of the Bosses abilities you can win BUT you still have to deal with the politics and rules set up by the guild that is running the raid... thus creating situations where one could win the roll for an item but still NOT gain said item.

    Having that chance to win an item is part of the thrill though.  DKP came about because of such scenarios, but it was the gamers who derived the system, and the players that accepted it.  Players who participated more, won more.  That is a sustainable mechanic, and one created by players too.

     

    Casuals didn't like DKP though, because they can't / won't play often enough to get integrated into a guild.  But they still want to be the hero in an MMORPG.  /sigh

     

    PVP offers instant gratification, which (sadly to me) satisfies their gaming needs, which are more short term than long term.  Every PVP game has suffered, unless your name is League of Legends.  But an MMORPG that depends on progression can't exactly get LoL players...

     

    MMORPG's are pretty much founded on "build-me-up" characters.  Doesn't mesh well with PVP.

     

     

    Zod understands your point of view.

    Question, after you get these elite items from the raids and you strenthen your character... then what? Do you just become stronger for the next eventual raid?

    Atleast with PvP you have a reason to get stronger, Serve your realm better, higher on the food chain etc....

    image

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    TES has never been about multiplayer period.  Of course an MMO is going to have a different focus.
  • GrunchGrunch yuma, AZPosts: 493Member

    Just don't pvp. Then the game will become 100% pve for you. See thats an easy fix.

     

    Really I think it is because pvp keeps most players entertained longer then pve. With pve you have to constantly keep pumping out new stuff. I like how this game will have both and so should you.

    "I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."

  • MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member
    Because it isn't really an elder scrolls game.  It's DAoC 2 with the elder scrolls ip slapped on to increase sales
  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by nilden

    image

    Three faction RvR is the focus.

    The reason is Matt Firor.

     

    Hehe. Love the logo. 3 dragons perpetually eating each others asses

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
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  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,639Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Inktomi
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Inktomi

    It's TES, how bad can it be? Do you really think Bethesda will let its best cash-cow falter (beside FO3 n NV) after so many years of success? 

    No way man. It's a brand name.

     

    Ahh the memories of Bioware and Star wars pre launch are flooding back....

    True, past performance is not indicative of future results. But there is $x.xx of dollars waiting on this game. They release I will invest into them and give it a go. It turns out to be another...what was it...tortanic? I lose a couple of bucks. 

    I didn't lose a dollar on Star Wars, The Secret World and countless other over-hyped duds that have rolled down this mmorpg.com pipe. I am willing to put my rep behind TESO though.

     

    Well, glad you are Ink.

    The point I was making though was simply a trusted dev, lots of money, and a much loved brand do not always add up to a good game, so citing them at this point as a reason why it's gonna be great is a bit premature.

    The chances are TESO will be a solid offering and appeal to a decent amount of people, though sadly I won't be one of them for different reasons. I actually hope it won't be another SWTOR tbh... this industry needs more succes and diversity all round.

     

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon

    I wouldn't mind PvP in MMO's if they didn't screw over PvE abilities to balance PvP.  I don't even mind open world PvP too much.  For the love of god don't cut off 2/3 of the world for PvP immersion.  And mark my words they will destroy PvE abilities for PvP "balance" like every other dumbass MMO dev out there.  If they do separate the PvE and PvP mechanics I will put my money where my mouth is.  

     

    Can you imagine the vocal PvP crowd if PvE reasons gutted their abilities.  GW2 (I like the game a lot despite this) has a 1 second fear...that's not a joke.

  • ThedrizzleThedrizzle Palm Coast, FLPosts: 322Member

    Don't get me wrong here, but maybe the game never had pvp was because it was a single player game?

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    I wouldn't mind PvP in MMO's if they didn't screw over PvE abilities to balance PvP.  I don't even mind open world PvP too much.  For the love of god don't cut off 2/3 of the world for PvP immersion.  And mark my words they will destroy PvE abilities for PvP "balance" like every other dumbass MMO dev out there

     And the people in charge of this game did it OFTEN in DaoC, so much so that my guild and I walked away from the game...that was almost 400 people that got so sick of them dropping massive nerf hammers, many of them wasnt even on our realm, but we walked when the Hibernia protests started taking place...and we were in Midgard...it was a case of enough is enough...and that there was better PvP in other games anyway.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    LOL they better hope this game doesn't tank hard because this will be the worst failure in mmo history.  
    30
  • spankybusspankybus Orlando, FLPosts: 1,154Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Margulis
    I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP.  Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series.  So why would that not be the main focus?  Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community.  So again, why opt for this route?

    Of course the series thus far has been primarily PvE...it's always been single player. Many fans have been screaming for Co-Op play for ages, all for not.

     

    This is the first Elder Scrolls with any kind of Multiplayer element to speak of...even if Bethesda is not directly creating it...it's still elder scrolls. With that, fans with finally get their Co-Op experience they've been craving.

     

    Naturally, the other side of this coin must be PvP...the opposite of Co-Op. do they leave it out completely? That doesn't feel right with the lore....Tamriel has had more than its share of discord...and banning PvP just doesn't fit this history.

     

    So, should they tack it in as an afterthought? Throw in a few arena fights, etc sure...this could jive...I mean..arenas aren't new in the Lore. But again, given the story they are trying to tell, that seems off. Fight for the crown with Rock, Paper, Scissors?

     

    It seems to me that what they are doing with PvP is the best approach for and elder scrolls game with multiplayer. It's not an option everywhere...but where it is available....it's full-on war.

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  • LaromussLaromuss vancouver, BCPosts: 324Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Normandy7
    LOL they better hope this game doesn't tank hard because this will be the worst failure in mmo history.  

    Why do they need to hope?  And I think you're confusing this game with SWTOR.   No game will fail as hard as that game will, why will ESO not have that fate, well because the hype is not even close the hype SWTOR receieved and addtionally ESO so far hasn't lied about a single thing thus far.  

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by Normandy7
    LOL they better hope this game doesn't tank hard because this will be the worst failure in mmo history.  

    Why do they need to hope?  And I think you're confusing this game with SWTOR.   No game will fail as hard as that game will, why will ESO not have that fate, well because the hype is not even close the hype SWTOR receieved and addtionally ESO so far hasn't lied about a single thing thus far.  

    SWTOR didn't fail that hard... warhammer still goes down for the biggest in my book.  AoC was pretty bad but they had a super comeback.

    No one thought these games would fail at the time (well there was a few but no one took them seriously).  ESO may or may not fail but it's not unsinkable.  There may be things wrong with it that we never even thought, this game has every right to hope it doesn't fail.

  • CrazyhorsekCrazyhorsek LisboaPosts: 244Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    I wouldn't mind PvP in MMO's if they didn't screw over PvE abilities to balance PvP.  I don't even mind open world PvP too much.  For the love of god don't cut off 2/3 of the world for PvP immersion.  And mark my words they will destroy PvE abilities for PvP "balance" like every other dumbass MMO dev out there

     And the people in charge of this game did it OFTEN in DaoC, so much so that my guild and I walked away from the game...that was almost 400 people that got so sick of them dropping massive nerf hammers, many of them wasnt even on our realm, but we walked when the Hibernia protests started taking place...and we were in Midgard...it was a case of enough is enough...and that there was better PvP in other games anyway.

    lol... oh the op realm. What... you quit when they stopped groups of 1 skald and 7 warlocks from insta dumping 3 bubbles each killing ANYTHING on their path?

    Please cry me a river about nerf hammers on midgard... seriously.

    Stop making bad publicity when you were obviously a bad player - and by your other posts, any daoc player can tell you didnt play enough.

    Not also you dont know DAoC well enough, theres also that part of TES where you don't know the lore - honestly, why are you on this forum since the only thing you do is pretty much bash the game?

    Go to your favorite game forum and well... stay there - I dont go to Guild Wars 2 forum just to say how much I hate that crap.

    image
  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon

    The way I look at it is this:

    In the single player RPG, you could kill pretty much anything you wanted and as such the game(s) were very dark and gritty with that feeling of dread and dispair.  Having PvP or better yet RvR in ESO is just an extension of that dark gritty world of single player games.  I also look at it like this, you need some sort of PvP in an MMO.  Even though I do not like PvP as much as I used to.  You still need it especially if you're making an MMO to capture a large percentage of the market.  They could of gone 3 routes with PvP.

    • Open World non factioned PvP (Darkfall or Eve)
    • Instanced PvP (Swtor)
    • RvR (DAoC)
    There really is no other options, sure you can mix and match some elements of the 3 different types of PvP like WoW with open world and isntanced based or Instanced Based and RvR (GW2) but in the end they went with a system that has only been done 1 other time.  Focus all your PvP on the single method that hasnt been done to death while still keeping the flavor of the IP intact without diluting the end product from mix and matching PvP systems.  It also doesnt hurt that your Director is unversally known for implementing the RvR in DAoC and the RvR system is widely considered the best PvP game ever made.  To my understanding it offers all kinds of opportunities.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

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