To be honest daoc had an excellent way of scaling abilities. By RR5 you had all your essential active abilities in either a less powerful form or longer cooldown. You would only have very few of the passive abilities yet you were able to compete at around this rank with even seasoned enemies. RR5 could be achieved in around 2 weeks but generally took around a month or a little longer. Purge would go from 15 mins with a 5 second activation delay to 5 minute reuse with no activation delay at the highest rank. This is a solid system.
To me where DaoC was brilliant especially with the old RAs with 30 minute resuse timers is that groups that may have been very high rank for their time had to be wise with the use of these long cooldown Ra's. If not then another group that may have all their abilities up could beat them even with being lower rank and if normally with all abilities that group very rarely won. Yes the more skilled group should win but a skilled group isn't only decided by how well they do with all their abilities but also how well they can handle a situation that they are at a disadvantage.
One more thing I'd like to touch on even though it doesn't pertain too much to RA abilities. Warhammer had morale abilities and it's my hope that a system similar to this makes it into CU. Id love to see the acquistion of Morale abilities tied to this system as well. Stealth is a big discussion right now and i think tying stealth to morales would be interesting. If they battle long enough to earn morale 4, it may increase the effectiveness of their stealth for 5-10 minutes or so if they choose, otherwise their stealth would be very weak and be seen from a pretty far distance.
Thanks and so my answer to your question is, that right now we are looking at an uncapped system as the best way to go for the game. Gaining abilities will not be something that will happen at most of today's MMORPGs pace but we also don't want players thinking that they have to play the game 24x7 for a week to see any progress. There is a balance to be struck but we are definitely not leaning towards easy mode.
To me where DaoC was brilliant especially with the old RAs with 30 minute resuse timers is that groups that may have been very high rank for their time had to be wise with the use of these long cooldown Ra's. If not then another group that may have all their abilities up could beat them even with being lower rank and if normally with all abilities that group very rarely won. Yes the more skilled group should win but a skilled group isn't only decided by how well they do with all their abilities but also how well they can handle a situation that they are at a disadvantage.
I agree I did like that system. What I liked even more though was the sense of accomplishment when you hit a high RR and earned your new title. I remember when I saw my first Einherjar and Emerald Ridere Was pretty awesome seeing their group and then getting stomped by them :P
What I forgot, Mark - regarding longtime motivation without making it impossible for newcomers to have a fighting chance I wanted to make a suggestion:
Reducing the cooldown of abilities. Its such a simple mechanic, while at the same time giving players a reason to keep on going. As an example:
You hand out three abilities to every player very soon. Those abilities do have a cooldown until you can use those again. So - if you now have a newcomer and a veteran fighting, both have the possibility to use those skills. But, while the newcomer might have to wait 30 seconds for the cooldown, the veteran has gained several improvements making it only 20 seconds.
Thats increasing the odds for the veteran, while still giving the newer player a chance.
Of course that shouldn´t be the only way to improve your character, but it does give you the chance to offer us something to continue playing without destroying the balance and still reward the veterans.
What about taking or defending keeps? Will there be experience (toward your next level) rewarded for that?
I think it would be kind of cool if the amount of experience awarded (divided among the individuals of the conquering army) scales up depending on the level of fortitude of the keep and the number of defenders, etc. By the same token, the defenders should be awarded experience based on the number of attackers and duration.
I think even the first version was clear to me but then I played DAOC for many, many years. One thing that isn't clear is how many abilities you'll have when you roll a brand new toon. Will you start with what in DAOC would have been all the abilities you would have had from being level 50 and allocating all your skill points in various spec lines? Or will you have to earn even those from RvRing?
Count me down as another person who really, really wants whatever progression system you come up with to take a long time or possibly forever to reach the cap and have lots of powerful active abilities that will be balanced by medium to long reuse timers and the opportunity cost of acquiring this ability instead of that one (translation: I want the functional equivalent of realm ranks and RAs regardless of what you end up calling them to better fit the new game and avoid legal issues).
What about taking or defending keeps? Will there be experience (toward your next level) rewarded for that?
I think it would be kind of cool if the amount of experience awarded (divided among the individuals of the conquering army) scales up depending on the level of fortitude of the keep and the number of defenders, etc. By the same token, the defenders should be awarded experience based on the number of attackers and duration.
MJ has said that most of the benefits will come from holdingkeeps, and the longer you hold them the more the benefits will increase. He doesn't want to create a situation where players earn more benefit from just swapping keeps (like in WAR) then actually holding onto them.
MJ has said that most of the benefits will come from holdingkeeps, and the longer you hold them the more the benefits will increase. He doesn't want to create a situation where players earn more benefit from just swapping keeps (like in WAR) then actually holding onto them.
I say +1 to that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Whatever the system for Tri Realm, I hope it's not easily attained and capped in a week or month or even a year. People get to cap in anything and the game dies off. I like when things are tough and I'm not just given things just for showing up.
It will be interesting to see what you all come up with.
Not a chance that it will be "Buy game, create char, kill one Viking, Ding Gratz!" not a chance at all.
Why's it always gotta be about killing vikings? Show the man where the bad Olaf touched you.
To me it was pretty clear. No PvE means no seperate "PvE leveling".
The 2 skill systems in DAoC hat some significant differences, that should be viewed at.
The first point was already menitoned "uncapped progression". For me its an important point for motivation, to always have the chance to improve. In common PvE skill trees, you finish you skilling at max level... and thats end of progression (at least in that tree). You already agreed on uncapped progression, so thats just fine.
The next thing is, that the old RA system was not a real tree, but a pool of abilities, that you could at random order. If i understood your former posts right, then you belive in a rather fixed, class based skill tree and you have to skill along a "path", that you choose. Imho it might be good, to have the possibility to get some abilities off from your path. The possibility to pick free from several skills gives more depth to character planing imho and has impact on your tactics on the battlefiield.
And finally i belive that some skills should be aviable for all classes, also apart from your class path. I am talking about skills like purge or first aid ...
btw, i have no idea, how a "housing leveling track" could look like!?
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Satarious
What about taking or defending keeps? Will there be experience (toward your next level) rewarded for that?
I think it would be kind of cool if the amount of experience awarded (divided among the individuals of the conquering army) scales up depending on the level of fortitude of the keep and the number of defenders, etc. By the same token, the defenders should be awarded experience based on the number of attackers and duration.
Shhh. Don't tell anyone else okay?
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Daimonion69
To me it was pretty clear. No PvE means no seperate "PvE leveling".
The 2 skill systems in DAoC hat some significant differences, that should be viewed at.
The first point was already menitoned "uncapped progression". For me its an important point for motivation, to always have the chance to improve. In common PvE skill trees, you finish you skilling at max level... and thats end of progression (at least in that tree). You already agreed on uncapped progression, so thats just fine.
The next thing is, that the old RA system was not a real tree, but a pool of abilities, that you could at random order. If i understood your former posts right, then you belive in a rather fixed, class based skill tree and you have to skill along a "path", that you choose. Imho it might be good, to have the possibility to get some abilities off from your path. The possibility to pick free from several skills gives more depth to character planing imho and has impact on your tactics on the battlefiield.
And finally i belive that some skills should be aviable for all classes, also apart from your class path. I am talking about skills like purge or first aid ...
btw, i have no idea, how a "housing leveling track" could look like!?
So housing will have its own leveling track. This sounds pretty great. Excited to hear about the customizability of housing. I remember fondly building my own homes in UO back when they first implimented the option; a system where you could level up your ability to build structures sounds awesome.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Daimonion69
Skill: arranging vase IV
LOL. If you ever see me put something like that in CU or frankly any MMORPG, try to get me commited to one of this country's finer asylums.
OTOH, Projectile Emplacement: Rank 5 doesn't sound to bad to my ears. However, I'm getting old, hearing is probably going.
BTW, thanks for the feedback guys. I really wouldn't have wanted to post that on Monday only to have to do an explanation of the explanation to explain the explanation.
LOL. If you ever see me put something like that in CU or frankly any MMORPG, try to get me commited to one of this country's finer asylums.
OTOH, Projectile Emplacement: Rank 5 doesn't sound to bad to my ears. However, I'm getting old, hearing is probably going.
BTW, thanks for the feedback guys. I really wouldn't have wanted to post that on Monday only to have to do an explanation of the explanation to explain the explanation.
More like thank you for all of the communication on your part. Have a great weekend.
No PVE, uncapped RVR levels: I'm fine with it, but I would also like this to be a process that takes months to achieve anything reasonable.
I think an issue nowadays is that you get guys who play for a week straight, get the highest or 2nd highest achievement and then tell everyone the game is lame and quit after a month. So don't even make the 2nd highest achievement attainable in a week. I think GW2 had orange gear achievable within a 1-4 weeks, and then wanted Red to be the long term goal, but that is a mistake.
So if we are trying to avoid that scenario, I like the idea of no level cap, sort of how RR's were uncapped basically. I don't mean to make this game grindy, but let's make this a long haul scenario where if you want to become RVR viable, you need to play for months and months.
Please do not implement BG's, Arenas, or any form of bottled up rewards that can be repeated ad naseum.
What happens in games is that people find out what activity/task/action gives them the most points over time, and just repeat it ad naseum over and over. So if taking a keep/win an arena/bg gives ANY points, people will just take empty keeps in a cycle over and over. Sort of how those seals and animals at the zoo repeat the same actions over and over because they have gone crazy.
So I think we should have points be earned off killing other players and scale that so that is the major source of points. Otherwise you get people just camping donkeys, grain silos, trying to capture that to get the 500rps they need instead of just fighting someone.
So in closing: I'm happy with your post, as long as it takes months and months to get even, just to provide a metric, RR4-5 for example being 3-6 months. (i know there won't be that metric, but just using it as an example)
*I hate to reference early DAOC, but that pace was fine. 3-6 months to get basic achievements are fine. I'd rather we be on that end of the spectrum as opposed to "point and click your way at a hub to victory" end of the spectrum. Id also like us to avoid the "capture empty objectives over and over to farm enough points" problem as well. Please make rewards come from killing the other faction. Maybe make capturing keeps, sources of power, just a +to XYZ abilities.
Best regards,
Timetrapper
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
To me it was pretty clear. No PvE means no seperate "PvE leveling".
The 2 skill systems in DAoC hat some significant differences, that should be viewed at.
The first point was already menitoned "uncapped progression". For me its an important point for motivation, to always have the chance to improve. In common PvE skill trees, you finish you skilling at max level... and thats end of progression (at least in that tree). You already agreed on uncapped progression, so thats just fine.
The next thing is, that the old RA system was not a real tree, but a pool of abilities, that you could at random order. If i understood your former posts right, then you belive in a rather fixed, class based skill tree and you have to skill along a "path", that you choose. Imho it might be good, to have the possibility to get some abilities off from your path. The possibility to pick free from several skills gives more depth to character planing imho and has impact on your tactics on the battlefiield.
And finally i belive that some skills should be aviable for all classes, also apart from your class path. I am talking about skills like purge or first aid ...
btw, i have no idea, how a "housing leveling track" could look like!?
Personally i like how Wurm Online did housing, You needed a certain carpentry skill level to plan to build houses and larger plans were only avalible to higher skilled carps. they could also hire the carp to drop the template they want then use the building to gain skill on, houses could be various shapes and sizes (within a square format ) and you could make them of stone or wood. Your skill in masonry/carpentry would speed up the time it took to build each wall of the structure.
Now that said Wurm has poor gfx and a very large learning curve but i was more implying a similar system would allow a large variation of structures within rvr to keep groups on there toes, allow clever builders to funnel attckers into areas you want to fight them etc.
Comments
Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/
To be honest daoc had an excellent way of scaling abilities. By RR5 you had all your essential active abilities in either a less powerful form or longer cooldown. You would only have very few of the passive abilities yet you were able to compete at around this rank with even seasoned enemies. RR5 could be achieved in around 2 weeks but generally took around a month or a little longer. Purge would go from 15 mins with a 5 second activation delay to 5 minute reuse with no activation delay at the highest rank. This is a solid system.
To me where DaoC was brilliant especially with the old RAs with 30 minute resuse timers is that groups that may have been very high rank for their time had to be wise with the use of these long cooldown Ra's. If not then another group that may have all their abilities up could beat them even with being lower rank and if normally with all abilities that group very rarely won. Yes the more skilled group should win but a skilled group isn't only decided by how well they do with all their abilities but also how well they can handle a situation that they are at a disadvantage.
One more thing I'd like to touch on even though it doesn't pertain too much to RA abilities. Warhammer had morale abilities and it's my hope that a system similar to this makes it into CU. Id love to see the acquistion of Morale abilities tied to this system as well. Stealth is a big discussion right now and i think tying stealth to morales would be interesting. If they battle long enough to earn morale 4, it may increase the effectiveness of their stealth for 5-10 minutes or so if they choose, otherwise their stealth would be very weak and be seen from a pretty far distance.
So happy right now.
I agree I did like that system. What I liked even more though was the sense of accomplishment when you hit a high RR and earned your new title. I remember when I saw my first Einherjar and Emerald Ridere
Was pretty awesome seeing their group and then getting stomped by them :P
Ex-DAOC, Excalibur
Looks good!
Would like to see rites of passage for each sphere but details details. Its good, conveys the message clearly.
So far, so good.
Whilst the explanation wasn't needed for me personally, it does make things a lot clearer and less ambiguous
What I forgot, Mark - regarding longtime motivation without making it impossible for newcomers to have a fighting chance I wanted to make a suggestion:
Reducing the cooldown of abilities. Its such a simple mechanic, while at the same time giving players a reason to keep on going. As an example:
You hand out three abilities to every player very soon. Those abilities do have a cooldown until you can use those again. So - if you now have a newcomer and a veteran fighting, both have the possibility to use those skills. But, while the newcomer might have to wait 30 seconds for the cooldown, the veteran has gained several improvements making it only 20 seconds.
Thats increasing the odds for the veteran, while still giving the newer player a chance.
Of course that shouldn´t be the only way to improve your character, but it does give you the chance to offer us something to continue playing without destroying the balance and still reward the veterans.
Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/
What about taking or defending keeps? Will there be experience (toward your next level) rewarded for that?
I think it would be kind of cool if the amount of experience awarded (divided among the individuals of the conquering army) scales up depending on the level of fortitude of the keep and the number of defenders, etc. By the same token, the defenders should be awarded experience based on the number of attackers and duration.
I think even the first version was clear to me but then I played DAOC for many, many years. One thing that isn't clear is how many abilities you'll have when you roll a brand new toon. Will you start with what in DAOC would have been all the abilities you would have had from being level 50 and allocating all your skill points in various spec lines? Or will you have to earn even those from RvRing?
Count me down as another person who really, really wants whatever progression system you come up with to take a long time or possibly forever to reach the cap and have lots of powerful active abilities that will be balanced by medium to long reuse timers and the opportunity cost of acquiring this ability instead of that one (translation: I want the functional equivalent of realm ranks and RAs regardless of what you end up calling them to better fit the new game and avoid legal issues).
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
MJ has said that most of the benefits will come from holding keeps, and the longer you hold them the more the benefits will increase. He doesn't want to create a situation where players earn more benefit from just swapping keeps (like in WAR) then actually holding onto them.
I say +1 to that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Lmao!!!
To me it was pretty clear. No PvE means no seperate "PvE leveling".
The 2 skill systems in DAoC hat some significant differences, that should be viewed at.
The first point was already menitoned "uncapped progression". For me its an important point for motivation, to always have the chance to improve. In common PvE skill trees, you finish you skilling at max level... and thats end of progression (at least in that tree). You already agreed on uncapped progression, so thats just fine.
The next thing is, that the old RA system was not a real tree, but a pool of abilities, that you could at random order. If i understood your former posts right, then you belive in a rather fixed, class based skill tree and you have to skill along a "path", that you choose. Imho it might be good, to have the possibility to get some abilities off from your path. The possibility to pick free from several skills gives more depth to character planing imho and has impact on your tactics on the battlefiield.
And finally i belive that some skills should be aviable for all classes, also apart from your class path. I am talking about skills like purge or first aid ...
btw, i have no idea, how a "housing leveling track" could look like!?
Shhh. Don't tell anyone else okay?
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I do.
Note to Scilly: See, I can be a tease too!
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
A) Yes, it's clear.
Skill: arranging vase IV
LOL. If you ever see me put something like that in CU or frankly any MMORPG, try to get me commited to one of this country's finer asylums.
OTOH, Projectile Emplacement: Rank 5 doesn't sound to bad to my ears. However, I'm getting old, hearing is probably going.
BTW, thanks for the feedback guys. I really wouldn't have wanted to post that on Monday only to have to do an explanation of the explanation to explain the explanation.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
More like thank you for all of the communication on your part. Have a great weekend.
My YouTube MMO PvP Channel
Hi Mark,
Just to give my feedback on the idea:
No PVE, uncapped RVR levels: I'm fine with it, but I would also like this to be a process that takes months to achieve anything reasonable.
I think an issue nowadays is that you get guys who play for a week straight, get the highest or 2nd highest achievement and then tell everyone the game is lame and quit after a month. So don't even make the 2nd highest achievement attainable in a week. I think GW2 had orange gear achievable within a 1-4 weeks, and then wanted Red to be the long term goal, but that is a mistake.
So if we are trying to avoid that scenario, I like the idea of no level cap, sort of how RR's were uncapped basically. I don't mean to make this game grindy, but let's make this a long haul scenario where if you want to become RVR viable, you need to play for months and months.
Please do not implement BG's, Arenas, or any form of bottled up rewards that can be repeated ad naseum.
What happens in games is that people find out what activity/task/action gives them the most points over time, and just repeat it ad naseum over and over. So if taking a keep/win an arena/bg gives ANY points, people will just take empty keeps in a cycle over and over. Sort of how those seals and animals at the zoo repeat the same actions over and over because they have gone crazy.
So I think we should have points be earned off killing other players and scale that so that is the major source of points. Otherwise you get people just camping donkeys, grain silos, trying to capture that to get the 500rps they need instead of just fighting someone.
So in closing: I'm happy with your post, as long as it takes months and months to get even, just to provide a metric, RR4-5 for example being 3-6 months. (i know there won't be that metric, but just using it as an example)
*I hate to reference early DAOC, but that pace was fine. 3-6 months to get basic achievements are fine. I'd rather we be on that end of the spectrum as opposed to "point and click your way at a hub to victory" end of the spectrum. Id also like us to avoid the "capture empty objectives over and over to farm enough points" problem as well. Please make rewards come from killing the other faction. Maybe make capturing keeps, sources of power, just a +to XYZ abilities.
Best regards,
Timetrapper
i like that to! :P
Personally i like how Wurm Online did housing, You needed a certain carpentry skill level to plan to build houses and larger plans were only avalible to higher skilled carps. they could also hire the carp to drop the template they want then use the building to gain skill on, houses could be various shapes and sizes (within a square format ) and you could make them of stone or wood. Your skill in masonry/carpentry would speed up the time it took to build each wall of the structure.
Now that said Wurm has poor gfx and a very large learning curve but i was more implying a similar system would allow a large variation of structures within rvr to keep groups on there toes, allow clever builders to funnel attckers into areas you want to fight them etc.