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[Column] General: Tingle's Touchy Subjects: MMORPGs

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Comments

  • BitterClingerBitterClinger Newark, DEPosts: 225Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Senadina

     But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

    And yet in other genres, people don't hark back to better times, no one goes on about how CIV IV doesn't have the depth of CIV I, no one wants to go back to Wolfenstein when they can play a modern shooter. People hark back to older MMOs because they have mechanisms that added depth and immersion whilst that is something that has been lost from modern MMOs.

    Yes the bugs are overlooked in the memory, but no one is asking for the bugs to come back, they want old mechanisms with modern polish.

    It's not just the bugs. "Blue Healers" were not a bug; they were the result of unintended consequences. The Wall of Text problem was not a bug; it was an oversight by the developers.

    One of the things that made UO so immersive was the itemization. There was furniture, dishes, decorations, houses, and all manner of items in the world.  It's not developers that prevent that same level of itemization in today's MMO worlds.  The conversion to 3D graphics killed all of that.

    So, it's not just bugs and it's not just UO.  I can start going into EQ as well; hell-levels, naked mages, spawn camping, trains, etc...

    Top Games Played in 2015: World of Tanks, Tera, World of Warships

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Senadina

     But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

    And yet in other genres, people don't hark back to better times, no one goes on about how CIV IV doesn't have the depth of CIV I, no one wants to go back to Wolfenstein when they can play a modern shooter. People hark back to older MMOs because they have mechanisms that added depth and immersion whilst that is something that has been lost from modern MMOs.

    Yes the bugs are overlooked in the memory, but no one is asking for the bugs to come back, they want old mechanisms with modern polish.

     

    Are you happy in lala land?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B003ELORWE/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

     

    There's was a thread on here with a map of Doom and one of MW2 and the difference in complexity which result in old git gamers banging on about how Doom and old FPS' were so much better. You get this in the RTS world Total Annihilation anyone? mention Gothic 1, Balders Gate, Fall Out 1, Half Life and what about D3 to D2 etc etc.. and you get gamers going all misty eyed.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0030DH9R6/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

    I said CIV IV specifically, CIV V hasn't got such good reviews after the brilliance of IV, but people would still rate it over I.

  • FARGIN_WARFARGIN_WAR New York, NYPosts: 166Member

    Personally thought it was a great article. Just like you Adam I've found the last few big name MMOs to be rather bland, and would like to see at least some companies start adding in some of the features of older games where you could be a more interactive part of the world. And for all of you in here clammoring that means we just want to see UO2, it isn't. We'd just like to see games be less linear and impersonal, and made without the same narrowminded set of rules used by every damn MMO of the past seven years. So kindly stop being so pedantic. Luckily games like Arche Age seem to be attempting work outside the standard formula so maybe things are starting to change.

     

    As to toning down your use of "toilet humor". Eh... I thought the jokes were amusing and was not offended in the slightest. Changing your writting style to appeal to a wider base of readers isn't a bad thing, but I also caution against letting a prudish minority decide for you what to write and how to write it. As at the end of the day the most important person who should feel good about your writting is you. Because if you feel you are being limited in your style of writing, your messege won't have the same passion or attention to detail, as when you are saying exactly what it is you want to say.

    image

    If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

  • zonzaizonzai Moonmoth, TXPosts: 358Member

    The jokes were a bit contrived.  Don't try so hard to be sardonic.  I have a feeling it comes naturally to you anyway.  Overall, I agree with the sentiment of the article.  Exploration and imagination are in short supply in modern MMOs.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Senadina

     But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

    And yet in other genres, people don't hark back to better times, no one goes on about how CIV IV doesn't have the depth of CIV I, no one wants to go back to Wolfenstein when they can play a modern shooter. People hark back to older MMOs because they have mechanisms that added depth and immersion whilst that is something that has been lost from modern MMOs.

    Yes the bugs are overlooked in the memory, but no one is asking for the bugs to come back, they want old mechanisms with modern polish.

     

    Are you happy in lala land?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B003ELORWE/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

     

    There's was a thread on here with a map of Doom and one of MW2 and the difference in complexity which result in old git gamers banging on about how Doom and old FPS' were so much better. You get this in the RTS world Total Annihilation anyone? mention Gothic 1, Balders Gate, Fall Out 1, Half Life and what about D3 to D2 etc etc.. and you get gamers going all misty eyed.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0030DH9R6/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

    I said CIV IV specifically, CIV V hasn't got such good reviews after the brilliance of IV, but people would still rate it over I.

     

    Your point was people in other gaming genre's don't hark back and that is just not true, its as rampant as it is in MMOland, there is always good and bad and many players prefer Civ V over IV over Civ III as with D3 over D2 but there is also a lot of players that don't and want companies to just stay in the past. I'm into other hobbies and its the same story, the past was fantastic and the present is rubbish which is blatantly not true and this article is put up to woo the vets on here and start a debate thats been raging on the forums for years and not only this one, so really whats the point? Until we get over the idea that every game should be designed for me and just open up to change the better and I'll throw in one more cliche "Rome wasn't built in a day" so instead of bleating on forums for things to change to the way you would like get active within communities and make that change happen, critique is good but not at the expense of living and enjoying things in the now.

     

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • LJonteLJonte Portland Metro, ORPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by Senadina
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by BitterClinger

    Ok, while I agree with the general sentiment; I have to say we REALLY need to stop with the rose-colored remembrances of some of the old games.

    Ultima Online was fantastic.  I really liked many things about it.  The reason I quit playing was:

    • Blue healers
    • Gameplay-killing interface problems (e.g. two guys attack your friend and spam a wall of text while doing so - you can't target your friend through the text)
    • Play-crushing lag around houses, which were everywhere
    • Stupid bugs (e.g. enter another player's house as ghost, get friend or wandering healer to rez you through wall, open door from inside house, steal everything from house)
    • Macroing
    • Entirely hackable client-server communications
    So, no.  I don't want to return to those days.

    I don't think people are calling for old bugs to be re-introduced just some of the old concepts.

     But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

     

     

    For me, the lackluster nature of many MMOs now is the unfortunate result of the medium's own popularity. A thing gets popular, more producers want in on the new money-maker and suddenly everybody and their dog is trying to make an MMO, but without the willingness to take the risks that made some of those early games great.

    But I so have to agree with the idea that one's first love is the best love. We're all a little jaded about anything that comes after because it can never quite measure up to our image of that initial infatuation.

    So which is it? Are new games too bland or are we too jaded? A little of both, I think.

    In any case, Adam, congratulations on your new column.

    -Lisa Jont

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
     

    Your point was people in other gaming genre's don't hark back and that is just not true, its as rampant as it is in MMOland, there is always good and bad and many players prefer Civ V over IV over Civ III as with D3 over D2 but there is also a lot of players that don't and want companies to just stay in the past. I'm into other hobbies and its the same story, the past was fantastic and the present is rubbish which is blatantly not true and this article is put up to woo the vets on here and start a debate thats been raging on the forums for years and not only this one, so really whats the point? Until we get over the idea that every game should be designed for me and just open up to change the better and I'll throw in one more cliche "Rome wasn't built in a day" so instead of bleating on forums for things to change to the way you would like get active within communities and make that change happen, critique is good but not at the expense of living and enjoying things in the now.

     

    I disagree, I think it is far more rampant in the MMORPG genre than in other genres. 

    Bleating here on this forum is just as valid as bleating over in other communities. I try to influence the changes I want to see by targeting my consumer spend depending on the developers ideas, that is the only way to make change.

  • FARGIN_WARFARGIN_WAR New York, NYPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by LJonte
    Originally posted by Senadina
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by BitterClinger

    Ok, while I agree with the general sentiment; I have to say we REALLY need to stop with the rose-colored remembrances of some of the old games.

    Ultima Online was fantastic.  I really liked many things about it.  The reason I quit playing was:

    • Blue healers
    • Gameplay-killing interface problems (e.g. two guys attack your friend and spam a wall of text while doing so - you can't target your friend through the text)
    • Play-crushing lag around houses, which were everywhere
    • Stupid bugs (e.g. enter another player's house as ghost, get friend or wandering healer to rez you through wall, open door from inside house, steal everything from house)
    • Macroing
    • Entirely hackable client-server communications
    So, no.  I don't want to return to those days.

    I don't think people are calling for old bugs to be re-introduced just some of the old concepts.

     But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

     

     

    For me, the lackluster nature of many MMOs now is the unfortunate result of the medium's own popularity. A thing gets popular, more producers want in on the new money-maker and suddenly everybody and their dog is trying to make an MMO, but without the willingness to take the risks that made some of those early games great.

    But I so have to agree with the idea that one's first love is the best love. We're all a little jaded about anything that comes after because it can never quite measure up to our image of that initial infatuation.

    So which is it? Are new games too bland or are we too jaded? A little of both, I think.

    In any case, Adam, congratulations on your new column.

    Oh most assuredly. I don't see my disenchantment with the long line of AAA themepark games as any different from my fatigue over beloved film fanchises with too many sequels, or a televison show that's gone on for what feels like far too many seasons. It doesn't mean themeparks aren't still viable, or even that I hate them. In fact I've spent some very enjoyable quality time in more than a few of them in the past years. However, to swtich to another anaology, I am now satiated and can't bring myself to take another bite. Having an alternative on the menu would go a long way in reigniting my interest.

    image

    If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

     

     

    As to toning down your use of "toilet humor". Eh... I thought the jokes were amusing and was not offended in the slightest. Changing your writting style to appeal to a wider base of readers isn't a bad thing, but I also caution against letting a prudish minority decide for you what to write and how to write it. As at the end of the day the most important person who should feel good about your writting is you. Because if you feel you are being limited in your style of writing, your messege won't have the same passion or attention to detail, as when you are saying exactly what it is you want to say.

    er, It has nothing to do with being offended.

    I'm not offended. Very little offends me. however, I am also a "right place at the right time" type of person.

    If I was offended by stuff like this I wouldn't be having a B movie night every thursday that ranges from Russ Meyer classics, to 70's Pam Grier movies to Jean Rollin 70's Vampire flicks. And everything in between.

    It has to do with being a writer on a site and presenting one's material in a way that gets his message across in a way that is taken seriously, even with humor. it's looking at these writers as journalists of some sort and lending to their credibility.

    pee-pee jokes are great and I enjoy a genital/urination joke as much as the next person who enjoys a genital/urination joke.

    but when I'm on a website for mmo information and journalism I do expect that site to be more than a place for kids to look at their wee-wee's and snicker and giggle.

    One thing I learned  years ago, and believe me I had a very foul mouth back then, is that people don't take you seriously when all they expect from you are f-bombs and toilet humor.

  • steusssteuss Libertyville, ILPosts: 129Member Uncommon

    Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

     

    Give me the ability to be epic if i choose, not exactly the same as everyone else.

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member
    Originally posted by steuss

    Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

     

    Give me the ability to be epic if i choose, not exactly the same as everyone else.

     

    Ok.

     

    Quick question: How?

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Psychow
    Originally posted by steuss

    Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

     

    Give me the ability to be epic if i choose, not exactly the same as everyone else.

     

    Ok.

     

    Quick question: How?

     

    This should be interesting.

    Armchair dev lays out plans to revolutionise the MMORPG field, professional devs slap heads in disbelief they didn't think of it first..

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • LJonteLJonte Portland Metro, ORPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

    Oh most assuredly. I don't see my disenchantment with the long line of AAA themepark games as any different from my fatigue over beloved film fanchises with too many sequels, or a televison show that's gone on for what feels like far too many seasons. It doesn't mean themeparks aren't still viable, or even that I hate them. In fact I've spent some very enjoyable quality time in more than a few of them in the past years. However, to swtich to another anaology, I am now satiated and can't bring myself to take another bite. Having an alternative on the menu would go a long way in reigniting my interest.

    Agreed.  I hold out hope that just as Indy creators on YouTube seem to be innovating and energizing what we watch, that Indy creators online (via Kickstarter and other means) will  help to innovate and energize what we play.  

    And then someone will finally invent a viable Holodeck. :D

    -Lisa Jont

  • FARGIN_WARFARGIN_WAR New York, NYPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Psychow
    Originally posted by steuss

    Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

     

    Give me the ability to be epic if i choose, not exactly the same as everyone else.

     

    Ok.

     

    Quick question: How?

     

    This should be interesting.

    Armchair dev lays out plans to revolutionise the MMORPG field, professional devs slap heads in disbelief they didn't think of it first..

    Well funnily enough it looks like there are some game developers out there that already know how, and who think that change is a viable option, XL Games, Above and Beyond Technologies, Goblinworks to name a few. In fact one of those games, ArcheAge has just launched and seems to be off to a great start. So I'm sorry, what exactly was your point again?

    image

    If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

  • FARGIN_WARFARGIN_WAR New York, NYPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by LJonte
    Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

    Oh most assuredly. I don't see my disenchantment with the long line of AAA themepark games as any different from my fatigue over beloved film fanchises with too many sequels, or a televison show that's gone on for what feels like far too many seasons. It doesn't mean themeparks aren't still viable, or even that I hate them. In fact I've spent some very enjoyable quality time in more than a few of them in the past years. However, to swtich to another anaology, I am now satiated and can't bring myself to take another bite. Having an alternative on the menu would go a long way in reigniting my interest.

    Agreed.  I hold out hope that just as Indy creators on YouTube seem to be innovating and energizing what we watch, that Indy creators online (via Kickstarter and other means) will  help to innovate and energize what we play.  

    And then someone will finally invent a viable Holodeck. :D

    Well with ArcheAge it looks like we've at least got one boat in the water. Two if you count Age of Wushu. So hopefully this is just the start of companies trying to branch out a bit more.

    And gees, real life holodeck. As if I don't already have enough distractions. image

    image

    If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

  • LJonteLJonte Portland Metro, ORPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR
    Originally posted by LJonte
    Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

    Oh most assuredly. I don't see my disenchantment with the long line of AAA themepark games as any different from my fatigue over beloved film fanchises with too many sequels, or a televison show that's gone on for what feels like far too many seasons. It doesn't mean themeparks aren't still viable, or even that I hate them. In fact I've spent some very enjoyable quality time in more than a few of them in the past years. However, to swtich to another anaology, I am now satiated and can't bring myself to take another bite. Having an alternative on the menu would go a long way in reigniting my interest.

    Agreed.  I hold out hope that just as Indy creators on YouTube seem to be innovating and energizing what we watch, that Indy creators online (via Kickstarter and other means) will  help to innovate and energize what we play.  

    And then someone will finally invent a viable Holodeck. :D

    Well with ArcheAge it looks like we've at least got one boat in the water. Two if you count Age of Wushu. So hopefully this is just the start of companies trying to branch out a bit more.

    And gees, real life holodeck. As if I don't already have enough distractions. image

    I've got big hopes for Pathfinder Online too.  And yeah, a real Holodeck would probably be the death of me.  I'd never want to leave!

    -Lisa Jont

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Psychow
    Originally posted by steuss

    Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

     

    Give me the ability to be epic if i choose, not exactly the same as everyone else.

     

    Ok.

     

    Quick question: How?

     

    This should be interesting.

    Armchair dev lays out plans to revolutionise the MMORPG field, professional devs slap heads in disbelief they didn't think of it first..

    Well funnily enough it looks like there are some game developers out there that already know how, and who think that change is a viable option, XL Games, Above and Beyond Technologies, Goblinworks to name a few. In fact one of those games, ArcheAge has just launched and seems to be off to a great start. So I'm sorry, what exactly was your point again?

     

    Does sarcasm have a point?

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by steuss

    Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

    To make something meaningful, it has to effect some kind of change. To make that change meaningful, it has to have some kind of permanence or consequence. It also means the game has to allow people to make bad choices.

     

    On the game world level instead of character level, meaningful actions means you are affecting the game world for others.

     

    To better understand it, instead of looking at it as a game where you aren't on rails and where you have freedom to do what you want, look at it as a game world where everyone else is not on rails and where everyone else has the freedom to do what they want. Suddenly, most of the desired "missing" aspects of MMOs start to look really undesirable.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • JayarisJayaris InvercargillPosts: 308Member

    The article reeked of a lack of maturity, and it was pretty much just a collation of bitter veteran rants over the years. 

    Insubstantial, and not insightful. I might even have preferred Pokket...

    Hi

  • IsturiIsturi Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,509Member

    "Is the MMORPG genre too stale?" Youve all rdy answered that. Yes by far it is. I'll give you the real answer that no one is willing to give because it is true. I blame WoW for the mmorpg genre being to stale all these fly by night and exspecialy these asian and most other F2P MMO's have to much of WoW in them and cant seem to give us something diffrent something inovated. ALL new MMO's have GRINDING or FARMING basicly the concept of ALL MMO's is start in the newbie zone and grind your way up by killing x-amount of rats. The ONLY thing that is diffrent is PVP in MMO's today and sadly PVP is keeping many MMO's alive. Going back to PVE I'll give you one word TRINITY...... I can go on but why you did a great job all rdy Tringle with this thread TY but now for your next queston.

    "Does it lack imagination and that all needed spark of immersion?" See above statment.

     

     

    image

  • FistyMayhemFistyMayhem Rochester, NYPosts: 61Member Uncommon
    You hit the nail right on the head.
  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member

    I think this is more of a reflection on nostalgia.

    The MMO genre needs to move forward, not backwards. It needs to iterate on the good ideas of the past to generate the good ideas of the future.

    And I hesitate to read anything by anyone that signs off with "Tingle out."

  • jbombardjbombard SapporoPosts: 531Member Uncommon

    Easy access to information on the internet pretty much has killed much chance of reclaiming t hat sense of awe you got from exploring.  So much of a game can be seen without even playing it.  When WoW first came out there were a couple good sites but nothing close to the amount of information out there today.  It was that lack of easy access to "the answer" that made it an adventure.  I'm not sure that there is an easy anser to that problem either.

     

     

     

  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member

    Erm, welcome to the mmorpg.com forums as a writer. I do not fully enjoy your writing style, but I do get entirely your point since it comes up a lot here and I have had similar qualms about most recent releases for a while.

    The issue at stake for many devs is that in trying to cater to players with little time, they have forgotten about making virtual worlds and are rather generating very limited games that are online and persistent without much other thought about the social aspects or roleplay elements of the game. They also regurgitate a lot of very same-y lore and storylines.

    I prefer worlds I can explore in, communities that are interesting, and game mechanisms that are interesting. To me, SWG had the elements of a perfect MMORPG but in execution it was highly flawed.

    I am waiting for the devs to finally get their heads out of their rears and realize that we need another SWG-like sandbox with a good engine and unflawed gameplay elements. I guess I will be waiting for a long time.

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

    image
  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    I agree with this article entirely (well apart from the bad 'comedy').  
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