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I can't agree with the OP.
Crafting by template makes it manfacturing but crafting with variable results and decay make for variety and priority. If you have 4 "identical" swords but one has a slightly better blade and does more damage, you use that for epic fights and grind with the others in hopes of getting a better one.
Any game I can say I truly had fun with, I was crafting or doing something tied to it and leveled by accident. Any game I was forced to level to open the next version of the same thing I did yesterday ended up failing me. It's all about objectives but crafting I find is a good way to split them and allow people to make their own. You want to make Armor, he wants to make health packs another guy wants to make weapons. It's repeatable content.
Twinks are going to do what they have always done: grouse about variables that add complexity to their path to combat uberness. But it doesn't mean they have a point.
Yes, combat players say they don't "like" decay. But what they say and what they do are two totally different things. Because I've never seen anyone quit over decay, nor have I ever seen a combat player hesitate to pick up a game with decay.
I have, however, seen combat players quit when decay systems are taken out. It isn't because they especially like crafting or even want a player economy. But they just get bored with the static nature of their games. The ability to have what you want, on your terms, predictable and not subject to decay or decline, is very comforting to combat players. It allows them to easily complete their goals and amass all that they want, very quickly, without any limiting constraint outside of their ability to keep logged on and fight in static instance after static instance.
And, predictably, they accomplish their goals in record time, and find no more reason to log on or maintain any interest. Or (more likely), they wake up one day three weeks into their play experience and say "you know, this is boring." And they churn out.
Indeed, the data coming out of the industry seems to support my claims. Some of the most popular games out there have decay: the Fallout series and the Diablo series. So while you see the combat types crawl out of the woodwork in threads like this, and say they hate decay, they aren't being totally honest. If they hate decay so much, why do they play so many games with decay in it?
Because decay is a dynamic system. It gives what would be an otherwise static thing, like a piece of gear, a wrinkle of variability across time. And that--despite what the grousers say--is a good thing. It holds their attention longer. It makes them into more than content consumers; it integrates them into systems. And that's a good thing. Because if you are just there to consume content, you'll have no reason to stay once you power your way through the content. But if you are integrated into a system of supply and exchange, you'll feel like a part of something more.
The industry has been bending over backwards to give combat players what they say they want. And this is why decay has been a tough mechanic to find in the post-WoW era. But you have to wonder how the combat players have "rewarded" this loyalty, because all the data I see seems to indicate they log on at launch, play for three months top, and leave.
Why are they so bored, when the developers are giving them everything they say they want? Because what combat folks say they want, and what they actually do, are totally different things.
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Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Torgrim Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Torgrim This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7. Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good player driven economy.
And yet it is a major inconvenience to those who are uninterested in crafting and economy - and they are a majority among gamers. The net sum is negative. Find another way to drive economy.
They are not forced in anyway to craft anything they can hack mobs left and right how much they like so i fail to see your point.
Just think your proposition through for once! Item decay brings along with it...
In red the things I really miss in MMORPG these day's. It's what made MMORPG become more virtual worlds instead of these online combat games we have today. And I rather have realistic "grind"
Keep in mind you already have plenty of games to choose from and those who like what you seem to be against has it's place aswell. But for some reason when I see a reply like yours it seems as if you asume that all MMO' should be that way. No they shouldn't but like today's very limited type of MMORPG there is room enough to have a game with your highligted red feature's, which you simply do not have to play.
That is all.
Originally posted by Reklaw Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Torgrim Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Torgrim This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7. Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good player driven economy.
+1 to last 2 quotes
Originally posted by SpottyGekko The OP makes the usual snap conclusions based on the premise that "most people think like me and like what I like".
As does nearly everyone else in the thread, or on this site for that matter.
Upthread someone deigned to proclamate about what player economies Must Have (emphasis mine). Yet we've seen dozens of different ideas about very different player economies, not all of them having what he insisted were Must Haves...blink, blink.
Logic suggests these aren't Must Haves, after all.
Player economies don't even Must Have items(!!), for heaven's sakes.
It would behoove everyone to stop declaring MMO Design Rules that aren't, and for the love of Groo stop speaking in Absolutes, in general.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Reklaw
No I don't think every MMORPG should be the same. But these ideas are almost always presented like they're remedies - silver bullets to "fix" MMOs. Item decay is an old idea and an unpopular one. It is a bad deal for the adventuring type because it brings many inconveniences without any gameplay value.
How about coming up with something that is fun for both instead? Something new for a change?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Reklaw
Perhaps because it's not possible to please everyone with a single game mechanic. Many of the things you eschew are my gameplay, how are developers to keep both of us happy?
I agree, if there really is some single, optimal way to accomodate a thriving economy then sure, let's go for it but it seems over the years there's been a number of successful (but different) mechanics employed and enjoyed by some subset of the community while disliked by others.
Item decay has worked well in a number of titles over the years, I thought they did a good job with it in DAOC (more of a theme park style title than others have mentioned) and sure, I can see where having it in WOW might be bad, but truthfully, who keeps gear in that game for any length of time?
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Reklaw
I'm not a fan of digging up old features from the dark ages before MMORPGs became popular because, in part, those features were the reason why MMORPGs were unpopular back then. The people who played them then are a minority now. It doesn't make sense for a big developer to make a game like that, but there are plenty of indie developers aiming for just that segment, I'm sure.
Anyway, with all the talk about "innovation" there sure is a lot of talk about rehashing old ideas. Not blaming you Kyleran, but there sure are a lot of hypocrites around.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Reklaw
I'm not convinced there is a lot of room for innovation (or it is invention really) in MMORPG's anymore, seems like its really just a case of further fine tuning than anything else. So yes, I am looking for some of the older mechanics to be revisted, improved upon perhaps, as I think today's gamers might actually enjoy them if they had a chance to experience them in the right game.
If we take WOW and a few F2P behemoths out of the equation, almost all MMORPG's are really catering to a niche market of less than 500K sustanined players, so there's really no reason not to experiment with alternate or even old school mechanics even if you are a large, AAA developer.
Permadeath is honestly a gigantic waste of time. I can't even begine to tell you how many times I've died in-game via latency issues, being disconnected, stuck in the world, etc. It's just a bad idea within the MMO realm.
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus Permadeath is honestly a gigantic waste of time. I can't even begine to tell you how many times I've died in-game via latency issues, being disconnected, stuck in the world, etc. It's just a bad idea within the MMO realm.
People like perma death because it provides a challenge on seeing how far you can get before dieing and then they try and beat it next time round, its a system that isnt for everyone but there a bunch of people who likes it.
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Reklaw
This is probably true. There isn't much more room for innovation and so, why not explore a mixture of old and new?
Game Need: to remove items from the game to suppress the fact that there is a multitude of items being created. Items can't be recirculated forever and continue to amass. There must be a constant need for crafters to make them.
Item Decay- eventualy items wear out and break down after use
Binding Items- items that have been in used are untradeable, economically made worthless
What other options are there aside from removing the economy and crafters?
Well I do understand they are not remedies towards today's masses into this genre. But it would be a remedy to get me back into this genre. You know from my point of view MMO's today are very limited, enjoyable...but limited, they hardly offer more then normal multiplayer games and they can't keep up with "story" from singleplayer games yet offer a very solo experiance if one wants too.
I personaly like my MMORPG to be more of a virtual world because what is offered today in MMO's....sorry I can find better in multi/singleplayer games. And it use to be the other way around where MMORPG had gone beyond that what we already had.
I do understand that they offer today what is most common and known to the "gamer" who started online gaming when internet became mainstream and of course even with MMO "Vets". I also know that many of the things I loved about MMORPG's is not what the masses want. Just like what you feel is inconveniences without gameplay value is excactly what I consider to be fun and have allot of gameplay value within this genre..
You remember the complaints in SWG that there wasn't enough content?. To me there hasn't been a MMORPG after that offered such a hugh amount of content.
I am just the type of gamer that wants a different game experiance than what I already can find in other genre's, while I kinda feel you step into a topic while you have enough choice, perhaps I wrong about that.
I do not like TheSims, but I do like to have a "realistic" fantasy or sci-fi world, and today's MMO "worlds" only offered as said so many times what I already can find much better in other genre's.
Sure I want innovation, but most of all I want a MMORPG that is made alive by it's players, it's community. Today's generation of people into games rely merly on developers to make the game alive......we already have other genre where developers can do that.
I think that the attitude that MMORPGs are out of ways to innovate and that its just a matter of tweaking things to get them just right is the death of that kind of MMORPG. TESO for example is designed with that in mind, and it will follow in the footsteps of all the other high budget AAA MMOs of the last eight years - have a huge release, then hemorrhage customers who have devoured the content and gotten bored.
People so far have been discussing methods that MMOs have used in their in-game economies, and so are going to just be rehashing the same points... if you want to come up with something new or better you need to look at it from a systems design standpoint - look at the purpose of an ingame economy and figure out a best way to achieve that purpose. It's worth saying that this is not a one-size-fits-all system, and that people should not be looking for 'the best MMO', but rather 'their favorite'. This has been forgotten largely because players are content and people want to play with their friends. Just like not everybody likes the same single player games of a genre, not everybody is going to like the same MMOs. Lock Skyrim fans in a room with Dark Souls fans. One side going to be dead in an hour.
Economies run on demand for scarce goods (Scarce happens to mean 'in low enough abundance that they're worth paying for'). They are scarce because not every player who wants them has them. Once they do, all the items become pointless, so you need to keep things scarce. Some common ways to give players an item game to work for is thus: 1) Slow delivery of content (Make the best items difficult to achieve either through requiring achieving difficult feats, spending lots of time), and/or 2) Creation of new content (Continuously make new better items for people to strive for), and/or 3) Entropy (Introduce systems so items leave the economy)
Usually more than one of these systems required because so many people spend so much time playing MMORPGs (and the more extreme you make any one system the more intrusive it is).
Its hard to know what new good systems can occur. However, the constant reuse of the ingame economy that WoW popularized is never going to lead to something fresh and interesting. And when I say WoW's economy, i'm going to break it down specifically: Raiding/RNG for slow content delivery, new raids/areas in expansions as new content creation, and soulbinding as a means to make items leave the economy.
An interesting take on the item game from an entirely loot standpoint is the system used by Path of Exile. This might not work great in an MMORPG but it's incredible for an ARPG and MMO developers would be wise to take a look at it. In a nutshell: There is no 'money', instead there are 'currency items' that vendors give you in exchange for items. These do things like identify items, provide permanent tiny buffs to items, let you re-roll magic elements, turn magic items into rares, re-roll sockets, re-roll other socket aspects, etcetera. Pretty much if you find a version of your favorite item, normal/magic/rare, you can use these currencies (from vendoring between ~five and hundreds of items) to turn your item into exactly the item you want, by re-rolling each of ~8 things separately. Turns the item game from the lottery found in Diablo games to actual item progression.
Whether a system like PoEs could work in an MMORPG is hard to say. However, it is exactly that sort of innovation that the MMORPG genre would benefit heavily from. Item Decay is a system to take items out of the economy, however it does it in a way that is not distinctly fun, it is a means to justify the end (keeping a game without soul/account binding from being completely overrun with items).
Originally posted by Beatnik59
Because without it, they'll simply do what they have always done: blow through content in a month, quit, and come here and complain how pathetic end games are.
So basically it is an artificial barrier to extend the shallow content with craft grinding.. no thanks.
Originally posted by mastersam21 When you design a game for the net sum in my eyes you already failed no matter how financially successful the game become.
Blizzards reaction: http://i.imgur.com/mCcCMkF.gif
Originally posted by Adamantine What I feel in many threads discussions is that people forget that games are supposed to be fun. Fun can be story content, or it can be socialization, or it can be challenges of sorts.
Wrong forum man. Here, it seems that majority are kind of masochist, who enjoy brutal mechanics to have fun. That's their source of enjoyment, as you said to each his own.
If a MMO has crappy harvesting/crafting, then I probably won't play it, or not for long. I like to do all aspects of a game, not just go hack and slash stuff.
Any game that has good crafting and item decay, those that like to just hack and slash can easily afford any gear they need. I do some crafting, but not everything, and I can buy whatever I need from my pve no problem.
For those worried about crafting and decay being a grind to make them play longer, then isn't having to level, finish dungeons and kill mobs the same? I mean why not load up and get a You WIn! screen and be done....What is the purpose of gold in a game, if not to buy things, houses, equipment, food....If you take away all needs, or give it to people with no work, whats the point. Would you want to play a game that gave you the best equipment and maxed you out when you made your character? I guess some would, but that seems pointless to me. I am not part of the, "I play 10 games a month, and 100s a year" club, that some are either.
So everything in a game is 'treadmill' gaming, even character creation by the foundation laid down by the OP. Their is a reason they make FPS games, it is for the quick fix, a MMO I am going to seriously play will not be a FPS MMO. I like FPS stuff, but not as part of my MMO fix.
Never gotten into permadeath, as it is not building a character and evolving with the world, played on special servers, as part of events that had it, but not as a main thing to do.
The more I read the more I see us (as a community) splitting (in a healthy way).
Some, like me, like/want item decay and a more 'complex' experience in our MMOs. Others want simplification.
Developers have to stop trying to make one game fit all which ends up usually failing on all points.
Make smaller, quality games for the niche that will support them.
I would like to see a graph of the number of MMOs with over 500k players, epsecially after 3 months when the hype is gone and the truth about the game is know, compared to the total number of profitable MMOs.
I suspect that MMOs are still niche games. Even WoW is niche compared to EA Sports games, Halo, and CoD. And various arcadey nintendo games.
How many people played temple run and angry birds vs WoW?
Any game requiring sustained gameplay with play periods over 5 minutes is a niche game.
And as for the myth that MMOs were super niche in the past, compared to the number of people who had a computer at all they were just as if not more popular than they are today.
I shall repeat the Mantra of MoLAoS(MoLAoS being my more commonly used name post 2005):
How much did you really think about it?
Most modern MMOs aren't anymore popular in player numbers than UO and EQ were. And most of them are far less long lived.
Innovation isn't why I play games. An innovation might be fun. When speaking of old features, people recall the fun they experience with it. So it is reasonable to think that way.
Originally posted by Toferio Originally posted by Beatnik59
I've never seen a combat player quit a game or not try a game because of decay. I have, however, seen combat players quit when decay is removed. The game becomes too static to keep their attention.