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For a series known for its amazing PvE - why so focused on PvP for ESO?

MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member
I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP.  Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series.  So why would that not be the main focus?  Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community.  So again, why opt for this route?
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Comments

  • curacura WarsawPosts: 950Member Uncommon
    I wouldnt call a game where you cant pvp on 75% of the map pvp focused.
  • MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member
    Originally posted by cura
    I wouldnt call a game where you cant pvp on 75% of the map pvp focused.

    I understand that point - still I would say it seems to be what they are using as the main focus / sell point / hype.  

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,639Member Uncommon

    I am very much confused myself about this... TES has never never been about PvP. It's a strange route for them to take, and one which might look popular among the vocal PvP gobshites of the internet world but one that might actually split their wider core audience of the series.

     

    I can only think it's because;

    • They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
    • The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
    • PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other
     
    I'm not sure though. What I am sure of is that the focus on this playstyle, amongst other issues, has killed any inyterest I have in the title. 
  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member

    I think they just got fixated on a single idea and no one said anything in the early development cycle.

     

    "Lets have DAOC style PvP with 3 way factions and a central PvP hub".

     

    Problem is, as pointed out by OP, it seems to be the main focus of the game because it has overshadowed almost all of the rest of the game. TES is famed for it's open systems, freedom of choice and ability to go anywhere in the map. TESO (due to the design scope of DAOC style PvP) has closed systems (i.e. fixed classes), Fixed choices (i.e. faction choice is hard coded with race, region is hard coded to race etc...) and limited exploration (due to each faction being land locked).

     

    It is one of those problems where if you are not flexible in your design you can damage the rest of the design by being unwilling to change a certain facet of it simply because you are unwilling to look at other options. It is a major lack of being unable to think outside the box.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,496Member Uncommon

    The game is developed by ZeniMax studio headed by ex Mythic (Dark Age of Camelot) dev Matt Firor.

    So the developer has never done any of the single player elder scrolls games before, but has worked on an awesome (vanilla DAoC, I wasn't a fan of the expansions) RvR game.

    Its all about the studio doing dev and what they are good at, the single player series was done by different developers studios so that fact that it was all PvE doesn't mean squat about TESO.

    The lore is largely irrelevant, if Zenimax was working on StarWars, Zombie or a Muppet game they would all most likely be 3 factions with RvR.

     

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Maelwydd

    I think they just got fixated on a single idea and no one said anything in the early development cycle.

    "Lets have DAOC style PvP with 3 way factions and a central PvP hub".

    Problem is, as pointed out by OP, it seems to be the main focus of the game because it has overshadowed almost all of the rest of the game. TES is famed for it's open systems, freedom of choice and ability to go anywhere in the map. TESO (due to the design scope of DAOC style PvP) has closed systems (i.e. fixed classes), Fixed choices (i.e. faction choice is hard coded with race, region is hard coded to race etc...) and limited exploration (due to each faction being land locked).

    It is one of those problems where if you are not flexible in your design you can damage the rest of the design by being unwilling to change a certain facet of it simply because you are unwilling to look at other options. It is a major lack of being unable to think outside the box.

    I've wondered about this myself.  Why would they think it was a good move to focus only on RvR - They don't even bother with open world PvP.  I could understand them not wanting to focus on PvE/story via SWTOR but like you said, TES is known for open systems, freedom of choice and exploration.  None of this is in ESO because they wanted to recreate DAoC RvR system.

    They should've been more creative with their approach to this game.  Yeah, it's risky to do something different but imo it's just as risky to release a RvR-niche game with an IP that is so much more.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by DMKano

    The lore is largely irrelevant, if Zenimax was working on StarWars, Zombie or a Muppet game they would all most likely be 3 factions with RvR.

    Well that's the problem imo, lore is not largely irrelevant in TES.  It is one of the main reasons people play these games and to reduce it down to a DAoC knock-off is an insult.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Yeah wrong developer for the TES brand certainly.
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,496Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by DMKano

    The lore is largely irrelevant, if Zenimax was working on StarWars, Zombie or a Muppet game they would all most likely be 3 factions with RvR.

    Well that's the problem imo, lore is not largely irrelevant in TES.  It is one of the main reasons people play these games and to reduce it down to a DAoC knock-off is an insult.

    I agree that lore is relevant, but the reality is that the Dev studio and their vision for the game is ultimately all that matters.

    This is the reality of MMORPG development, the Dev studio delivers what they are most comfortable with and will twist the lore to fit their vision.

  • ZefireZefire lol, CAPosts: 676Member
    Originally posted by Margulis
    I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP.  Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series.  So why would that not be the main focus?  Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community.  So again, why opt for this route?

    You re out of your mind

    The series are all about single player experience as bethesda has never released an mmo before.

    Additionally pve is for girls

  • IncomparableIncomparable KuwaitPosts: 872Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I am very much confused myself about this... PvP has never never been about PvP. It's a strange route for them to take, and one which might look popular among the vocal PvP gobshites of the internet world but one that might actually split their wider core audience of the series.

     

    I can only think it's because;

    • They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
    • The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
    • PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other
     
    I'm not sure though. What I am sure of is that the focus on this playstyle, amongst other issues, has killed any inyterest I have in the title. 

    Mmos are made for a group of different play styles. They can't please everyone and in trying to also make some thing others don't like.

    If its an Mmo, it has to have pvp, or it might as well stick to its niche market. Also any large budget Mmo will go with the benchmarks and trends in Mmos, to generate those funds which are ironically producing more of the same which people seem dissatisfied with.

    As long as the core of eso is true to the expectations of their series then adding online aspect increases the value of their franchise. However, a monthly sub, will hurt their game unless its an amazing MMo. The best thing is to be b2p and release enough story content in an in depth world.

     

    Then anything else would be a bonus for the online aspect tagged on to single part which should be a core feature constantly developed, which games like swtor did not continue to do for makeb, but also did not make solo mode be on par with single player games in general imo, and also having a sub hurt retention. Even though something swtor for the sw fan is a fun game but as an MMo with a sub it changes that perspective for others.

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by Zefire
     

    Additionally pve is for girls

    You are winning!

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Originally posted by Margulis
    I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP.  Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series.  So why would that not be the main focus?  Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community.  So again, why opt for this route?

    I'd say the hype is centered around the RvR aspect, whether or not that's community hype or developer hype I'll let you decide. Regardless, I wouldn't say this is a PvP focused game. Leveling is strictly PvE afaik. RvR is just the endgame it seems they're focusing on. As far as endgame goes, RvR is the best way to provide longevity, but I do think they're providing a PvE endgame too, so who knows. Bottom line is, I'd say ESO is less of a PvP focused game than DAoC was in its prime, and DAoC had a pretty fun PvE side for many, including myself.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,230Member Uncommon

    as said before....

    i don't see how you can think that 20% of the whole map would be a pvp focus. maybe if there would be 60% pvp map and 40% pve you could state that... but this way? naaa. 

     

    maybe add some arguments to your theorie? WHY do you think this game would have a pvp focus?

    80% of the map being pve is hardly a pvp focus. maybe you just dont like pvp? no idea

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cura
    I wouldnt call a game where you cant pvp on 75% of the map pvp focused.

    only its not 75%,  only 33% as the other 2 faction areas are not accesible, due to a slight faction locking area segregation thing going on in the game.image

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zefire

    Originally posted by Margulis
    I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all. Dn the 3 faction system and PvP.  Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series.  So why would that not be the main focus?  Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community.  So again, why opt for this route?

    You re out of your mind

    The series are all about single player experience as bethesda has never released an mmo before.

    Additionally pve is for girls

     

    Haha. Well TESO fans get used to comments like this from the PvP crowd. Im also sure they will balance the game pve abilities around pvp balance. Hell much of the map isnt accessible with one character for pvp reasons and open world pvp is out. I cant say Ive agreed with a single design decision that Ive heard about for this game.

    I suppose its nice for the daoc crowd. Cant imagine if I was a hardcore Non pvp teso fan...that would suck.
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,496Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thane

    as said before....

    i don't see how you can think that 20% of the whole map would be a pvp focus. maybe if there would be 60% pvp map and 40% pve you could state that... but this way? naaa. 

     

    maybe add some arguments to your theorie? WHY do you think this game would have a pvp focus?

    80% of the map being pve is hardly a pvp focus. maybe you just dont like pvp? no idea

    At release most of DAoCs map was PVE, but the game was RvR focused.

    conclusion - the percentage of map dedicated to pve/PvP has little relevance to what the end game focus really is, that is determined by devs game design.

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I am very much confused myself about this... PvP has never never been about PvP. It's a strange route for them to take, and one which might look popular among the vocal PvP gobshites of the internet world but one that might actually split their wider core audience of the series.

     

    I can only think it's because;

    • They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
    • The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
    • PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other
     
    I'm not sure though. What I am sure of is that the focus on this playstyle, amongst other issues, has killed any inyterest I have in the title. 

    Yeah, while DAoC was my first and most favorite MMORPG, RvRing wasn't my most favorite activity in the game...group PvEing was. The more I played RvR, the more I seen the flaws in the system. Such as the zergs, buffbots, stealth groups 1 shotting soloers trying to make it to a siege and etc. PvP since then has been even worse, with developers "balancing" all classes so that they're almost the same with different aesthetics and animations, not to mention the douchebags that gravitate towards PvP. It's just no fun when you have people bunny hopping everywhere and running around in circles.

    I'll probably not get excited about a PvP game until they fix a lot of issue common among PvP in this genre. I'd rather PvP in a FPS where skill plays a larger roll, such as knowing the terrain, trajectory, shooting through walls and so on.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by Thane

    as said before....

    i don't see how you can think that 20% of the whole map would be a pvp focus.

     

    maybe add some arguments to your theorie? WHY do you think this game would have a pvp focus?

    80% of the map being pve is hardly a pvp focus. maybe you just dont like pvp? no idea

    Faction locked races to enable the PvP design they want. Removes TES freedom of choice and PvE being available to all races in all locations.

    Faction locked regions to re-inforce the PvP design they want. PvE exploration of the 'entire continent of Tamriel' imposible.

    The central hub and 'end game' is PvP. If PvP wasn't their main focus then the central location of the map, and the fight for the crown, wouldn't be 'end game'. hell, you could have had the fight for the crown as a PvE event if you wanted. Literally speaking the game revolves around PvP.

    Is that enough 'focus' for you?

  • curacura WarsawPosts: 950Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Thane

    as said before....

    i don't see how you can think that 20% of the whole map would be a pvp focus.

     

    maybe add some arguments to your theorie? WHY do you think this game would have a pvp focus?

    80% of the map being pve is hardly a pvp focus. maybe you just dont like pvp? no idea

    Faction locked races to enable the PvP design they want. Removes TES freedom of choice and PvE being available to all races in all locations.

    Faction locked regions to re-inforce the PvP design they want. PvE exploration of the 'entire continent of Tamriel' imposible.

    The central hub and 'end game' is PvP. If PvP wasn't their main focus then the central location of the map, and the fight for the crown, wouldn't be 'end game'. hell, you could have had the fight for the crown as a PvE event if you wanted. Literally speaking the game revolves around PvP.

    Is that enough 'focus' for you?

    I think that if they wanted to focus on pvp they would allow everybody access to all map with full pvp. What we have here is just them trying to cater to both sides of the comunity - pvers and pvpers. Offcourse pure pvpers and pure pvers can see it as focusing on the other side.

  • superpatasuperpata portoPosts: 190Member
    I think knowing whether they force pvers/crafters to participate in pvp for that "endgame pve" type of content (whatever that might be), will say a lot about it.
  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member


    Originally posted by superpata
    I think knowing whether they force pvers/crafters to participate in pvp for that "endgame pve" type of content (whatever that might be), will say a lot about it.

    aww then may be it's not a game for me.

    just BTW: if PvE is for girls, PvP must be for boys who can't find said girls.=XD joke to meditate.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by cura

    I think that if they wanted to focus on pvp they would allow everybody access to all map with full pvp. What we have here is just them trying to cater to both sides of the comunity - pvers and pvpers. Offcourse pure pvpers and pure pvers can see it as focusing on the other side.

    PvP and RvR is slightly different.  They didn't add wPvP options (meaning you could choose to do it or not) because they wanted ALL PvP to be funneled into Cyrodiil via RvR.

    It seems like they are making more of a niche game rather than something for everyone.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,639Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Incomparable
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I am very much confused myself about this... TES has never never been about PvP. It's a strange route for them to take, and one which might look popular among the vocal PvP gobshites of the internet world but one that might actually split their wider core audience of the series.

     

    I can only think it's because;

    • They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
    • The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
    • PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other
     
    I'm not sure though. What I am sure of is that the focus on this playstyle, amongst other issues, has killed any inyterest I have in the title. 

    Mmos are made for a group of different play styles. They can't please everyone and in trying to also make some thing others don't like.

    If its an Mmo, it has to have pvp, or it might as well stick to its niche market.

     

    Well, I am a strong advocate for niche design. I hate the 'all things to all men' design philosophy and think it has a lot to do with the less than stellar games we have been seeing.

    The biggest mistake this game can make, IMO, is chasing what it sees as a broader MMO market and alienating a lot of it's core player base that don't enjoy PvP.

     

     

  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon

    Look it doesn't seem like it's a PVP focus. It is. Someone pulling numbers out and saying 75% of the map is pve is someone who never played DAOC and got to emain and RVR.

    The lore is being butchered and you do have that feeling that they are forcing DAOC RVR on it without making some serious considerations.

    I mean just look at the trailers and the logo with the three heads in a circle. I'm sure if you made part of it orange, pink and green you could make the muppets with Kermit, Piggy and Beaker.

    How to post links.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

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