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Are you gonna fund it?

13

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  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dotdotdash
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    As to Mythic Time, oh, what a nightmare that was. I felt so sorry for the programmer and for players as well. The poor guy was just trying to make the system work and he got hit from all directions at once including a very upset GM who was shouting "Mythic seconds WTF is Mythic seconds?" :)

    Yes, it was a nightmare.

    Certainly the programmer involved has to take responsibility for having the idea and implementing it, but I notice that you don't actually speak about how YOU felt about that particular solution, or your involvement in its implementation. I mean... you were in charge: you must have known about it before it was implement, and you must have decided that it was a "good" solution (even if temporary) to the problem? I can't say that I know the first thing about leading a large team in developing and designing an MMO; there's every chance that you were detached from the particulars of "mythic seconds" at the time, and only later made aware of the problem it created.

    Everything you seem to be saying right now is in the right direction for the niche you're aiming to fill with Camelot Unchained. That said, you can say the same about everything that was said pre-Warhammer Online, and you can say the same about everything that was said by Bioware pre-SWTOR's launch. You can say it about pretty much any major studio working on a major game; part and parcel of marketing the title is saying the right things, even where those things don't end up being "specifically" true.

    As I said, I'll certainly keep an eye on things and may even show some active support. I can't say that I'll be a backer; I simply don't have the money (which will shock some people, I'm sure). If I did, I would probably back more out of curiosity for the future  of your developer-player dialogue (it's an interesting "experiment", and I look forward to seeing what comes of it even if I don't get to take part in it). So you'll just have to take my love and kisses, I'm afraid. It's all I have to offer.

    LOL, do you know how many people were working on WAR at the time? I can't give out the exact number but it was more than 300. If I knew what every person was doing every day in a micro-managing sort of way, I wouldn't have gotten anything done for my work, EA's work and other studio work. Nope, I had no clue that was how it worked until I saw the stuff explode on the forums. When it was explained to me, it made sense technically but I don't think you'll find a studio GM who could tell you what any one programmer was writing as a comment to his code, that's why you have leads, managers, development directors, producers, COO and then me. :)

    As to what I'm saying now versus then, well, not exactly. The difference with Warhammer was that part of my job was to help build buzz for the game to compensate for an anysmally low marketing budget when compared to games like WoW, CoD, etc. As you might remember, WAR got no TV commercials, no big marketing events, etc. even though we broke EA's sales record for preorders for a PC product. The reasons are complicated and JR talked about them publicly (too many products coming out at the same time) so I've moved on from that but it meant that guys like PB, JH and I had to do lots of PR stuff. PB/JH ended up doing more than me but we all had to help sell our game. If you go back and look at some of the things I said about WAR and compared them to what I'm saying today, I would hope you would see the difference. I'm not using a lot of adjectives, I'm not saying that CU will be the best RvR game ever, etc. I'm simply laying out what we want to do with the game and leaving it up to the players if they like the concept. I'm telling them flat out that this will be a niche game, that we are aiming for a smaller sub count and that the game won't have PvE in it. I hope you see the differences betwen the two approaches, especially as I keep reminding people that the Kickstarter could absolutely face-plant and that this game isn't Dark Age of Camelot 2. If I was trying to hype the game the way I had to hype it for WAR (telling the truth as I knew it), I would have taken a different approach entirely.

    As to not being able to back us, that's fine, no worries at all. I don't expect everyone who has the money to back us will as I expect that they will be people who do can't afford to back the project too, that's how things go. I do appreciate the feedback and support, even if it is simply on the forums. Again, my thanks.

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • SatariousSatarious Kansas City, MOPosts: 1,075Member

    Only personalities and/or companies with name recognition can pull off a successful Kickstarter campaign.  I would LOVE to be able to start a Kickstarter of my own and create the best damn MMO game out there the way I see it, but I realize that I don't have nearly the celebrity of Mark Jacobs in the MMO gaming sector.  He can pull this off, I think.  And I like the fact that we have the same mindset, for the most part, on what would make a genuinely FUN and ADDICTING mmo game.  I'm a little concerned about his thoughts on E-Sport in an MMO, however, which is why I'll be waiting for the details to come out before I open my wallet.  

    But I do have faith in his ability to pull this off since he has a glowing mark on his resume called Dark Age of Camelot.  I get the feeling he was probably overruled or argued to death on some of the bad design decisions that went into WAR.

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    LOL, do you know how many people were working on WAR at the time? I can't give out the exact number but it was more than 300. If I knew what every person was doing every day in a micro-managing sort of way, I wouldn't have gotten anything done for my work, EA's work and other studio work. Nope, I had no clue that was how it worked until I saw the stuff explode on the forums. When it was explained to me, it made sense technically but I don't think you'll find a studio GM who could tell you what any one programmer was writing as a comment to his code, that's why you have leads, managers, development directors, producers, COO and then me. :)

    Don't get me wrong: I wasn't accusing you of anything at all. I added in the part about you maybe not knowing what was going on for the very reason you described. Having managed larg-ish teams on projects I work on, I can certainly understand that you would not know the particulars of everything going on at every level. From my perspective, the "mythic seconds" solution was a big thing, and it's very hard for me to switch tack and try to see things from your perspective when I really don't have any idea what things are/were like from your perspective. So I only have my own perspective to come from, and all I saw at the time was a (frankly, but not offensively) unappologetic, arrogant managment-type attempting to make excuses for what was (and still is) a really bad solution to a very, very important aspect of client-server interaction and core game play.

    So I asked you for your thoughts so that I could at least have a little understanding of the difficulties you faced at the time. I can certainly empathise with your position now that you've spoken fairly frankly about it.

    And I now realise that by "GM" you mean General Manager, and not Game Master (although it would be equally as applicable ;D).

    It was a big thing at the time. As I've said, it had a negative impact on what a lot of people thought and still think about you as a game designer and a lead. I can't imagine that's pleasant for you, and I hope that people reading our conversation here reassess their opinion of you. I have. And maybe they'll back you, where I cannot. 

    As to what I'm saying now versus then, well, not exactly. The difference with Warhammer was that part of my job was to help build buzz for the game to compensate for an anysmally low marketing budget when compared to games like WoW, CoD, etc. As you might remember, WAR got no TV commercials, no big marketing events, etc. even though we broke EA's sales record for preorders for a PC product. The reasons are complicated and JR talked about them publicly (too many products coming out at the same time) so I've moved on from that but it meant that guys like PB, JH and I had to do lots of PR stuff. PB/JH ended up doing more than me but we all had to help sell our game. If you go back and look at some of the things I said about WAR and compared them to what I'm saying today, I would hope you would see the difference. I'm not using a lot of adjectives, I'm not saying that CU will be the best RvR game ever, etc. I'm simply laying out what we want to do with the game and leaving it up to the players if they like the concept. I'm telling them flat out that this will be a niche game, that we are aiming for a smaller sub count and that the game won't have PvE in it. I hope you see the differences betwen the two approaches, especially as I keep reminding people that the Kickstarter could absolutely face-plant and that this game isn't Dark Age of Camelot 2. If I was trying to hype the game the way I had to hype it for WAR (telling the truth as I knew it), I would have taken a different approach entirely.

    I can't, and wouldn't want to, argue with that.

    I do not envy you the position they put you in. That said, I am reluctant to criticise EA overtly. They seem to take a lot of flack from gamers, and it's quite clear that we don't actually know what's going on 90% of the time. And EA aren't all bad; they've given us some great games. I guess it doesn't help that the people making games are so involved with the people playing games (as this thread demonstrates), so any "back room" arguing invariably spills out in parts on to forums and media sites.

    I genuinely hope it doesn't tank. I want to see this game, I want to play it, and I think it would be a real shame if it doesn't see the light of day. I think the MMO genre right now is pretty stangnant, stuck in a rut. Games like CU represent the prospect of variation in a market place that seems to favour peddling a vast number of WoW-like games. TESO, for example, seems to be very much entrenched in that formula; it's tiresome.

    Anyway, it was nice talking to you. I hope to again in the future :) Thanks for allowing me to be cynical at you. I rarely get the chance.

     

  • HokibukisaHokibukisa Midland, GAPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by skyexile

    I play from austrlaia, The WAR in beta was kinda bad on US servers, i think that was for everybody though, but once they did some major fix i think the game played rather well on 200 ping, certainly better than wow where i get constant messages like " im out of range, i cant do that right now, im too far away from my target" WHEN IM STANDING ONTOP OF IT!

    Also Mark trust me on this, no Australian servers, dont do it, we dont deserve them.

    Sup skyexile, quit Vanu, its the hibernia of planetside. Scythe sounds like unicorn farts.

     

    Also hes right Mark, Australians don't deserve anything. Its a land of criminals after all.

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  • SouldrainerSouldrainer Elmer, NJPosts: 1,857Member
    Originally posted by Coman

    Nope

    It's Mark Jacobs. Sorry but I keep my money to help the little poeple. That really do not have the money themselves. 

    Come on. The budget for the game was finished maybe a year ago? I doubt they really need this money and the budget is set in stone already. Might pre-order when more info is available and where closer to launch though. I might be absolutly wrong, but I am sure the game will be created whatever I kickstart it or not and it will be exectly the same game. Very maybe some feature will be added later or release will be a later. 

    Yeah, I think Kickstarter is starting to lose its way.  Paizo, who also doesn't need a Kickstarter, launched multiple ones for Pathfinder projects in recent months.  So, a company that doesn't need money is asking struggling consumers for money?  I don't like it.

    Still, this project could lead to DAOC 2, so that is exciting.  If Mark can convince us of why they need our donations, and do it well, I might contribute, but that is a big IF.

    There needs to be a rule:  People who are presently turning a profit in a creative field should not be allowed to use crowd funding.

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Souldrainer

    There needs to be a rule:  People who are presently turning a profit in a creative field should not be allowed to use crowd funding.

    National Endowment for the Arts is not going to like receiving this message.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by Hokibukisa

    Originally posted by skyexile I play from austrlaia, The WAR in beta was kinda bad on US servers, i think that was for everybody though, but once they did some major fix i think the game played rather well on 200 ping, certainly better than wow where i get constant messages like " im out of range, i cant do that right now, im too far away from my target" WHEN IM STANDING ONTOP OF IT! Also Mark trust me on this, no Australian servers, dont do it, we dont deserve them.
    Sup skyexile, quit Vanu, its the hibernia of planetside. Scythe sounds like unicorn farts.

     

    Also hes right Mark, Australians don't deserve anything. Its a land of criminals after all.


    Funny how we were the least populated in PS1... but Lol i quit shortly after hitting BR100 first, terrible game had been won, couldn't grind it out any longer.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • CetraCetra SingaporePosts: 354Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    This will be the first kickstarter project that I will back.

    same here.

  • Storm_FirebladeStorm_Fireblade FlensburgPosts: 156Member

    I will support this game no matter what. Of course I´m not going broke over this, but I´ll squeeze my pockets as much as I can, probably backing the game with an amount of 150$. Depends on the tiers, we still are waiting for. I´m totally aware of the odds and the risk I take with backing a vision. Even if the game gets funded, it might end up not being fun for me at all. I doubt it, but its still a possibility.

    Personally this kickstart is about much more, than just backing a new game though. Mark mentioned a quote I truly love myself:

    "This is a revolution, damnit! We’re going to have to offend somebody"

    The past years have been disappointing, when it comes to online gaming. In my the opinion commercial interests of publishers, developers and other groups alike have to take the blame here. I´m not naive at all. Of course as a business those companies do want to make money. Heck, thats something I want myself, when I´m seeking my place in the gaming industry. Still - I do believe in something called passion, moderateness and honesty. Something I truly missed for a long time, when it came to new projects.

    Mark isn´t infallible. He made his mistakes. I was furious about some of them. I´m still capable of seeing him as a human being, an oldschool gamer just like me though. Being that, he´s allowed to make mistakes. Hey - I do make those myself. So who am I to judge? Its far from being so extreme, that everything Mark touched was a mistake. As long as he is capable of admitting those wrong decisions and thereby learning from then - I´m fine with that. And thats excactly what I sense here.

    With City State Entertainement Mark is his own boss again and its time to offend somebody! I´m not just going to back a simple gamevision. I´m backing a company thats headed by someone I trust to have balls when it comes to make some decisions against commerce as well as curroption and in favor of passion, moderateness and honesty.

    I truly believe the time of big budget MMOs, published from enormous companies trying to cater to everyone has come to an end - IF someone finally has the guts and the means to lead the way. Mark might be that person in my opinion. He is no messiah, he won´t be free from mistakes and Camelot Unchained will not become the game everyone wants to play. But all that - even though in the past so many tried to become or promise that - is totally unimportant anyway.

    Focus on a targetgroup big enough to sustain a game. Get in contact with them right from the start. Hear them out, build my game around their input. Stick to my initial principles, which led me to find my targetgroup in the first place. Be transparent and honest. Make a reasonable game design, that actually makes it possible to deliver a bugfree and working game. Try to create a succesful and profitable game, but without screwing over my targetgroup. Make sure I deliver.....those are my thoughts, when it comes to game design nowadays. Well, thats how I always believed it should be and thats how I´m going to work in the industry after my studies. Unfortunately no one did seem to share this mentality. At least no one, that was capable of realizing it.

    For now Mark is heading that way, leading the revolution. A revolution that by no means does imply we will see new, innovative stuff at every corner, no - its a social revolution, that in its core is about how to treat my community and how to design and produce a game.

    I´d rather support someone, who of course wants to make money, but still shows he´s human and on a same level as we are, than supporting big commercial companies only interested in me until they got my money.

    But thats just me and no - I´m no communist! :-)

    Camelot Unchained Fanpage
    https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

  • jdnewelljdnewell Spring Hill, TNPosts: 2,150Member Uncommon

    I played DaoC the day of release and for 5 years steady. Loved that game.

    I wont be funding KS tho. Right now this is just an idea with concept art. If they do another KS later and have something to show besides concept art then I may donate.

    As much as I love the idea and concept, I personally cant give money out for it at this stage.

    I wish them all the luck tho, I will support it if it gets off the ground.

  • keygankeygan tampa, FLPosts: 237Member

    I will if it is attractive to donate. That means if I can get access to playing the game really soon after donating then yes. If I have to donate then go buy another game to play forever to forget about this one maybe not. Also it depends on what they offer for how much money. Neverwinter, a f2p, just sold its collector/founder edition for 200$ and that gives 3x beta weekends....I think that is crazy. 

     

    I think Marc should toss his money in and start to build the game then asking for additional funding. If he did it that way and I saw an actual product then definetly I would give money. 

  • skarrskarr LokerenPosts: 4Member
    Hell yea (my wife and I)
  • TadderTadder Naples, FLPosts: 38Member

    I've been reading the forums for a while and made an account so I could lend support to CU. First game I will dip into my pocket to support, well unless you call buying  indie games right at launch funding.

    I expereiced the fiasco of warhammer first hand and watched as my experienced raiding guild brought over from WOW basically crashed and broke up on the rocks that was warhammer. I still remember waking up one saturday morning, logging on, and seeing all 40+ members in my guild were offline like 4 weeks after launch. Logged off and unsubscribbed. Though it was fun to knock 10 people into lava with one cleave. Warhammer failed in a critical period of MMO time where a lot of people were burned out of WoW and looking to transition into a more meaninful PvP type of game, Whoops.

    The fact is that people make mistakes and fail. Any entrepreuner will tell you failure is an integral part of success. There are only a handfull of people in the world who have had mad success right off the bat, and even less who have done it a 2nd and 3rd time. The world would be a different place if we sent everyone who failed to an island and told them to GTFO. Actually, that might be Australia.

    Anyway, I'm tired of AAA Theme Park MMOs that guide me around like I'm 5 on the It's a Small World Ride. I'm also tired of PvP-Whack-A-Mole where capturing this tower/flag is fun at first but gets tiresome the 50th time when nothing really changes because I accomplished the goal. From the Dev diaries it sounds like CU will try to address these faults in a way that is more similar to SWG in its leniency than to EVE/indie sandboxes. It sounds like CU are taking their time for the kickstarter to understand what is actually feasible.

    I also thought that in a Kickstarter it is all or nothing? So if the 2mill funding isn't hit and Jacobs doesn't throw down, then everyone gets their cash back? Sounds fair to me. Though I have not experience with Kickstarter so I could be wrong.

     

     

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    "Any entrepreuner will tell you failure is an integral part of success."

    Quoted for truth. We all learn far more from failing than easily succeeding. From Jobs, to Lebron, failure drives us, teaches us, and encourages us.

  • Sys7emSys7em Edmonds, WAPosts: 119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by keygan

    I will if it is attractive to donate. That means if I can get access to playing the game really soon after donating then yes.

    ^ It would be my first KS, I hope there will be something inr return for doing so.

  • fanglofanglo Virginia, VAPosts: 290Member
    I am gonna fund as much as I can. Hopefully I can scrounge up 5,000. Well if the wife lets me.

    I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonPosts: 848Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fanglo
    I am gonna fund as much as I can. Hopefully I can scrounge up 5,000. Well if the wife lets me.

    What did you say?  You are going to give someone $5,000 in the expectation of some ephemeral rewards sometime in the future?  Yes give, not invest, you are not getting the money back at the end of the process.  I am sure that there are a lot of charities you could donate that to with much greater benefit to society.

  • SeariasSearias Edmonton, ABPosts: 712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fanglo
    I am gonna fund as much as I can. Hopefully I can scrounge up 5,000. Well if the wife lets me.

    Hehe, now I feel cheap with my $200. I guess I'll see if I can come up with a bit more money by then :)

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  • grimfallgrimfall Missouri City, TXPosts: 1,155Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by craftseeker
    Originally posted by fanglo
    I am gonna fund as much as I can. Hopefully I can scrounge up 5,000. Well if the wife lets me.

    What did you say?  You are going to give someone $5,000 in the expectation of some ephemeral rewards sometime in the future?  Yes give, not invest, you are not getting the money back at the end of the process.  I am sure that there are a lot of charities you could donate that to with much greater benefit to society.

    Have you spent any money on games in your life?  Guess what?  You should have spent all that on charity.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    I'm all in for RVR so yeah I'll be backing the game because I want a good RVR game to be successful.  I think now that Mark Jacobs doesn't have to deal with all that red tape anymore he and his crew can finally focus on making a good rvr game. So I'm all in on this project. Would rather give a smaller company a chance rather than pre-order another overhyped made for the casuals mmo again.
    30
  • SatariousSatarious Kansas City, MOPosts: 1,075Member
    Originally posted by Normandy7
    I'm all in for RVR si yeah I'll be backing the game because I want a good RVR game to be successful.  I think now that Mark Jacobs doesn't have to deal with all that red tape anymore he and his crew can finally focus on making a good rvr game. So I'm all in on this project. Would rather give a smaller company a chance rather than pre-order another overhyped made for the casuals mmo again.

    I think you hit the nail on the head.  I remember back before WoW brought casual play to the masses, the absolute max population a typical mmo could achieve was about 250k.  Everquest was pretty much the big dawg those days and daoc gave them a run for their money.  Nowadays, every single gaming company making mmos seem to be chasing that mass WoW crowd of casuals.  The problem is, you can't really out-WoW WoW.  That's why I'm looking forward to a niche game like this one that caters to a crowd who appreciates RPG immersion, great massive pvp, and community.

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon

    Poll needs a "maybe" option. I need to see how much money City State are trying to raise, more details on the plans for the game, and of course (since there is always an element of selfishness in backing a Kickstarter) what benefits are offered and how large a pledge is required to get them.

  • synnsynn killeen, TXPosts: 546Member
    yes, but not sure how much. I guess it kind of depends on all the information available to the public and what they have to show once the KS project is in full swing.
  • IlayaIlaya BochumPosts: 412Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Raventree

    Also, this might be sort of "in the spirit" of DAoC, but it is not DAoC II, which actually would get me fired up.

    Put up a Kickstarter for DAoC II and then I will drop some money with no questions asked.

    This + 2

    No Df and no PvE, no thx then.

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