As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest.
This scares the *&^% outta me... no stealthers (possibly) :-(
That's the point of doing what we are doing now and will continue to do in terms of talking to players, getting feedback, talking at the studio. Contrary to what some people believe here, I've always been willing to hear what people other than myself think about things. Yeah, sometimes I get all self-righteous (like with the gold sellers, hackers, people who lie about me/friends/game, etc.) and yes, somtimes I come off way too strong but it's always been my job to help/protect the studio(s) and our game when I believe what is being said is wrong (based on either what I know or I'm being told by my team). However, the vast majority of time I'm like Johnny Five, I want input. At the studio it's a constant back and forth about stuff. So, when I say I really want feedback, I really mean it and when I say that well, we haven't decided yet, it's because we haven't.
If we get funded, I think it is safe to say that those backers who wish to participate on the forums will have a fairly unique experience. I know some other studios and devs talk to the players after the game is launched and most MMORPGs do so during beta but we will get our backers into the forums day almost from day 1 (have to get the forums up and running, mods, etc.) and I and other devs will be there talking to them. The reason for this digression is that I expect this to be one of the most talked about topics. As I've said, we have been talking about some interesting mechanisms for implementing scout/ranger/assasin/etc. type of classes but we'll want our backers input on those ideas.
Neither you nor people who hate stealthers have anything to worry about. No decision has been made and I'm certainly willing to consider any class type that can add something to the game and do so without pissing off the vast majority of people.
I am looking forward to this. I in no way would expect CU to provide a class that is OP or would ruin the game. Just to note, stealthers didnt kill DAoC.
I do agree that stealth needs to be built to work with an open world rvr game. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Theres many ways stealth can be done right, and many ways it can be done wrong. Personally I dont play "stealthers" because Im a mage through and through. But my brother usually does play the scouts. Honestly the whole timed / untimed part seems much less meaningful to me than having the mechanics to counter stealth.
It doesnt matter if its 5 secs or 5 minutes, if theres no counter, its OP and rediculous. I actually played EQ2 for many years, and they have alot of the right way to do things. First off, you cant limit it to a single class. Make sure theres some variety, maybe give it to all your scouts (rangers, hunters, assassins etc). You can even do invis for clothers and finger wigglers. Anyone who says its ok for stealth and not invis is pretty hypocritical. Hell you could even go The Elder Scrolls way and give it to everyone. Then it really does become about strategy, when to use it, and how.
Second, untimed is fine, but unnecessary. A 10 minute timer is more than sufficient. It gives you time to hide out and wait in ambush or scout movements, but not disappear for dinner and come back unharmed. Still will be permastealth because you can just recast it, but keeps you from AFKing indefinately.
Third, and most importantly, any damage should break stealth. The whole point of being sneaky is for people to not know youre there. Once youve been spotted and are under fire, you cant be sneaky anymore. Doesnt make sense that someone has you trained in thier sights and all of a sudden you just vanish before thier eyes. If they can hit you, its your fault for letting them know where you are. Also once you start attacking or dealing damage your stealth is broken, you shouldnt get more than the first hit, because once they take damage, again, they know youre there. Youre no longer being sneaky.
Other options, which are just that, options, are things like a see-stealth ability. A counter class like as described earlier that can force someone out of stealth, or even just lets them detect stealth alone. Same counters for invisibility for clothers if implemented. Always a check and balance system. I think EQ2 went too far and even had consumables to see stealth and invis (2 different things in EQ2). GW2 stealth atm is way too powerful in WvW, and EQ2 stealth was all but useless with all the ways to counter. A balance between the two is whats needed.
I really wonder the background, experience level, and career class choices of some of the people that hate stealth. It just boogles the mind to me. Being a stealther as a mature player, gave me one huge benefit.
The chance to solo or small group casually with no need for a huge group.
That was the main reason. Thats it. Time and I played at a huge disadvantage because we depended on each ohter, noone else, often in enemy areas. As I played more and more, Time and I worked up a reputation. To other alb players, people acted like we were celebrites. Not only would we go in and lock down a area but we would affect choke points to reinforcesments trying to get to a tower, keep, or just a big battle area. Thats pretty fun and a good tactic for the realms. I was a scout and Time a infil. So usually once my stleath was popped, my survival rate dropped drastically. It was tough to play like that but I enjoyed it. As we got better, we would make a rule of jumping 3 people, then 4, and finally 5. Why? Because we knew we were good. We knew the area, setup a battle plan, and even an emergency exit. We weren't sitting up near some spawn point area only jumping low RR casters. Not to mention we died. Ha we died a lot.
There were plenty of classes that designs nearly made me cancel so many times like vamps. A horrible, horrible idea. To this, I have three friends that still laugh at this game because long ago they all rolled vamps, thought the game was silly easy, quit, and never came back. So either way, I don't get the hate towards stealth. DAOC to me has always been a near realistic medievil war game. So back when I played hardcore, when I would see some solo caster running around in the frontiers, get ganked by one stealther, and then go to the forums to cry havoc. I always frowned like crazy. What were they expecting? Ha. As stealth we have one big edge. Suprise. Knowing there are career players who think sneaky. Who approaches fights with a quick kill and exit plan, why would you run around solo? I guess a better question would be, why are you playing a game that you will not be a super caster runnning solo?
As the game is currently, I still played solo since Time quit before I did. There were many times in which i'd cross a bridge and run right into hordes of enemy stealth. A sea of red. Run or fight. Kill one or two. I still died. But you know what? I'd release and go back to pick them off or go to another area. I liked to play so I adapted and I liked the challenge. Clearly stealth should not be how it is currently in DAOC but to say it should not be in this upcoming game is silly.
Silly enough to say to you Marc, from someone with business experience and formal educaiton, you will lose that playerbase, who would normally flock to your next game. So I think you should have stealth but configure it so both parties are happy to some extent.
I thnk all you have to do is a few things.
1. Make it so a stealthed player cannot move at full speed.
2. Make it a certain range in which any non stealther player can see you from their front.
3. Use the same setup in DAOC as far as the timer to resteath.
4. Put items and/or abilities in the game so for those players that really hate enemy stealth, they have options to access to counter it.
5. Put in rules to make it harder for people to have large groups of stealth working together to somewhat curve greifing.
6. Reduce overall stealth based on the amount of enemies in the area.
etc.
There are many things that can be done. The point is that you just can't make everyone happy. I talked to someone today in my office who has only played WoW and he said he hates stealth. Wonder why? Only because its the only class that can kill him in PVP. He laughed of course, but he was serious.
DAOC still has players and guess what, stealth is still in the game. Along with many other mmo's.
It should be a graphics effect that makes your character blend with the environment, much like a chameleon. Moving fast would make the silhouette of your toon kaleidoscope more as you pass through different colors, and moving slower should make you sillouette less noticeable. Perhaps building in potency as you stand still, and being completely removed if damaged or attacking.
That way it takes equal skill to both not be seen, and equal skill to be found.
Invisibility is a totally different story. It's super op, that is why only the One Ring could pull it off. Never give invis in an mmo. Unless it is a very very difficult item to get and has a serious cd.
I'm not sure people who are so vehemently against perma stealth played DAOC, where I think the mechanic was properly implemented, (though a balancing challenge for the Devs to be sure).
Stealthers actually weren't that powerful. Sure, they could devestate a sitting spell caster, but if they were standing it was still a real challenge to kill them, especially if you were an archer.
Against a well armored, same level tank stealthers had almost no chance in a protracted fight, only the best would even try and most made sure to gank in pairs against such a target.
Stealthers had a specific role in the game, to move through the battlefield, try to gank the lesser armored classes (healers wore chain in many cases, and were not soft targets btw) and of course, ganked other stealthers. Sure, they could finish off targets pretty well, but in a straight up fight (God help them if they went up against an experienced Friar up close) they usually lost.
Also, stealthers could not escape like a WOW Rogue can, once they decloaked, they were in the fight until the end, win or lose, and they didn't always win as any experienced stealther can tell you.
BTW, winning took some real skills, as an infiltrator I needed to be able to switch weapons mid fight (was not easy) to reapply poisions, especially against harder targets. Sure, i could gank a sitting caster without a challenge, but smart casters never sat down and rested if they didn't have counter stealthers circling them looking for enemy stealthers trying to get them.
I also ran in gank archery squads, and while fun, we had to chose our targets, were we to attack a full 8 man group we would never stand a chance, their healing, debuffs, buffs and coordinated combat would destroy us in seconds.
So sure, stealthers pick off the weak, and in a game like DAOC, stupid, who run out solo into the battlefield with no support (or a speeder like a Minstrel who could flash their party past a gank squad before they could even get into position.
If you never played DAOC, you have no idea how well coordinated battle mechanics really work and how viable the stealth classes could be, without totally rulling the field.
There is an alternative I believe that could work out the problems each side of the argument has. Have stealthers play more of a scouting role. Have a stealther go behind enemy lines to get a grasp on the strength of their forces. Aside from that, they could play as a typical ranger class. Don't give them a large damage buff when they attack from stealth, just give them tools to work with attacking unaware opponents and perhaps some escape tools (Not just being able to vanish on a cooldown. As much as I relied on skills like that in my WoW days, they were forced to rely on it too much).
Don't give them the ability to two shot everyone, but give them the ability to have the advantage over people who aren't paying attention to their surroundings. Half the fun in many MMOs (as well as other genres), was the fact of never knowing if you were being watched and hunted. In my opinion, a stealth based class plays as much of an important role in large scale battles as the heavy armor, shield using tank-type classes.
Originally posted by Thupli Stealth should not be invisibility or a mechanic.
It should be a graphics effect that makes your character blend with the environment, much like a chameleon. Moving fast would make the silhouette of your toon kaleidoscope more as you pass through different colors, and moving slower should make you sillouette less noticeable.
That way it takes equal skill to both not be seen, and equal skill to be found.
Invisibility is a totally different story. It's super op, that is why only the One Ring could pull it off. Never give invis in an mmo. Unless it is a very very difficult item to get and has a serious cd.
Id like it to be an active camouflage, but the problem is if the game has tab targeting, whats the point?
Stealth was the thing about DAOC I disliked most. If CU has it, there is a good chance it will be a dealbreaker for me. The only way that it might not be a dealbreaker is if the timer is very short, and the reuse timer is long.
The classes add nothing though. Better to just leave them out entirely.
- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth
stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.
I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part. Maybe 10%. 50% would just be silly.
I bet you think the stealth guy should do double damage. You are proving the point that stealthers want to pawn without reasonable downsides. reducing damage is a great way to lower the power of stealth.
If you think stealth is interesting and adds challenge to YOUR game play, well that is cool. I don't think it works for either side of the issue.
You know stealthers wear leather right? You know they are pretty squishy right?
I didn't know you had played this game. Many games had this mechanic and the discussion is not limited to a single game. Duh.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
First off, you can't afk in stealth. You will get popped by another stealther. You can't afk in trafficked areas. Even non stealthers will find you and can see you if you arent moving in DAOC. But as a WoW fanboi I wouldnt expect you to know this. Also casters aoe certain areas so you will get uncovered and die. So the point of AFK'ing as a reason to not have non-timed stealth has been neutralized. I don't want to see it again.
Did you even realize he was lambasting a prevelant mechanic of his main? Fanboi's don't criticize their own game usually. Very uncalled for. If you are old enough to have played DAOC back in the day, you should be beyond that kind of pettiness.
Secondly, stealth is a stupid mechanic yes? Wow ok lets tell this to J.R. Tolkien since he wrote a series of books about a ring that gives you stealth. Why not also call R.A. Salvatore an idiot because of dark elves have items that can grant them stealth. Oh yeah the creaters of DAOC are stupid too, cuz they allowed in their game also ey? Oh yeah, and game makers nowadays who like combat stealth are the real awesome mmo creators then huh? Bet you also like the shift to FPS MMO's too? Go back to Duke Nuke em or something.
Ok, so let's make it so only one person in the game can stealth. And it slowly eats their soul. Are you sure you want to emulate Tolkein's mechanic?
To sov-rath:
Hehe lets not let this post drift into the realm of how Party A (stealthers) go back and forth with Party B (non steatlhers) about their skill level and how they/us suxxors, or we/you are weak, or how we/you have no skills etc. I mean Daoc in its prime wasnt flooded with tons of consistent stealth zergs because in general you can't get a high RR zerging it up in a stealth group. You get like 80 rps when you kill some individual straggler with a group of 4 or more.
Also please don't lump us in with people who say "real pvp" and all that stuff. We aren't people griefing a respawn point 5 vs 1 or ganking lowbies. Non-timed stealth doesnt lead to that. Lack of rewards and RvR zones prevent that. I'm just talking about good ole fashioned early 2000's cocky troll tank dropping and hearing that sweet sweet "Ruzzahhh" sound they make as i take em down. (though sometimes they'd pop Ignore pain and I'd be up a creek)
Can we lump you in with people who cry 'fanboi' when someone has a differing opinion on an mmo mechanic than you?
I probably should have just reported you. Not baiting. I will not respond.
- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth
stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.
I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part. Maybe 10%. 50% would just be silly.
I bet you think the stealth guy should do double damage. You are proving the point that stealthers want to pawn without reasonable downsides. reducing damage is a great way to lower the power of stealth.
If you think stealth is interesting and adds challenge to YOUR game play, well that is cool. I don't think it works for either side of the issue.
You know stealthers wear leather right? You know they are pretty squishy right?
I didn't know you had played this game. Many games had this mechanic and the discussion is not limited to a single game. Duh.
I understand that many games have it. Just pointing out that this and most others I have played balanced them buy being squishy is all.
Originally posted by lightingbird Time and I played at a huge disadvantage because we depended on each ohter, noone else, often in enemy areas. As I played more and more, Time and I worked up a reputation.
I remeber fighting against you guys (Albs) with my SB on Lancelot ( I think was the server)... Wasnt Timetrapper always in Blue dye?
Originally posted by lightingbird Time and I played at a huge disadvantage because we depended on each ohter, noone else, often in enemy areas. As I played more and more, Time and I worked up a reputation.
I remeber fighting against you guys (Albs) with my SB on Lancelot ( I think was the server)... Wasnt Timetrapper always in Blue dye?
haha yeah! I always wore all royal blue and I'll do it too in CU if they can meet our non-timed stealth requirements hehe. Me and Blackzorro were on Lamorak. But I was also on Lancelot too, years ago as an inf named Timetrapper as well, so yeah, wow can't believe that blue dye stuck in your mind all these years. what's it been like ten years? Though on lancelot, the scout I duo'd up with was Dragoo, he wore all green. Dunno what happened to him though, we lost touch what with no facebook and all back then. (Yo Dragoo!, send me a personal message if you read this!)
I quit Lance cuz I didnt wanna get a buff bot, was in college at the time so was short on funds. But I came back when buff bots were neutralized on those special servers like Lamorak. But yea, we'll link up together on CU then when it comes out. Good to meet one of the old guard stealthers from a decade ago.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
Originally posted by lightingbird Time and I played at a huge disadvantage because we depended on each ohter, noone else, often in enemy areas. As I played more and more, Time and I worked up a reputation.
I remeber fighting against you guys (Albs) with my SB on Lancelot ( I think was the server)... Wasnt Timetrapper always in Blue dye?
haha yeah! I always wore all royal blue and I'll do it too in CU if they can meet our non-timed stealth requirements hehe. Me and Blackzorro were on Lamorak. But I was also on Lancelot too, years ago as an inf named Timetrapper as well, so yeah, wow can't believe that blue dye stuck in your mind all these years. what's it been like ten years? Though on lancelot, the scout I duo'd up with was Dragoo, he wore all green. Dunno what happened to him though, we lost touch what with no facebook and all back then. (Yo Dragoo!, send me a personal message if you read this!)
I quit Lance cuz I didnt wanna get a buff bot, was in college at the time so was short on funds. But I came back when buff bots were neutralized on those special servers like Lamorak. But yea, we'll link up together on CU then when it comes out. Good to meet one of the old guard stealthers from a decade ago.
Dragoo!! Theres a name I havent seen or heard in a long long time. And yea, he had all green lol. Man that brings back some great memories. We got in some great fights, I can still hear myself and my guildies screaming over vent " F'N Dragoo Shield slam again" After that we went to Merlin/gawain and rolled Alb slthrs. My guild is Death Syndicate and most of us still play games together, would be cool to run with you in CU (if it happens). Much respect for guys.
Stealth was the thing about DAOC I disliked most. If CU has it, there is a good chance it will be a dealbreaker for me. The only way that it might not be a dealbreaker is if the timer is very short, and the reuse timer is long.
The classes add nothing though. Better to just leave them out entirely.
You say this with the memory of daoc assassins and snipers, where both did critical super-tard damage from stealth.
What if that were not the case? Who says a backstab on a guy wearing heavy armor has to critical hit? Or an arrow fired from stealth has to do more damage? Stealth classes are key for an RvR game even if you took away their crit strikes entirely. There could be many infiltration and sabotage roles a stealth class could play, in addition to joining up with a group and assisting dps.
Stealth was the thing about DAOC I disliked most. If CU has it, there is a good chance it will be a dealbreaker for me. The only way that it might not be a dealbreaker is if the timer is very short, and the reuse timer is long.
The classes add nothing though. Better to just leave them out entirely.
You say this with the memory of daoc assassins and snipers, where both did critical super-tard damage from stealth.
What if that were not the case? Who says a backstab on a guy wearing heavy armor has to critical hit? Or an arrow fired from stealth has to do more damage? Stealth classes are key for an RvR game even if you took away their crit strikes entirely. There could be many infiltration and sabotage roles a stealth class could play, in addition to joining up with a group and assisting dps.
I just can't imagine a daoc withou stealth.
Yeah. This isn't really a deal breaker for non stealthers wanting to play this game. Not sure how this idea got started that, if you have untimed stealth, people will completely lose interest in the game and ragequit. I wanna see the figures on when people cancel their subscriptions how many were actually on the record as, due to stealth.
Yes, this will cause people to rage quit, have a tantrum for 15 minutes, then log back in, but not quit forever or head for the hills, so lets just put a stop to that nonsense. So, I hope our core issue doesn't become an escape goat for people not wanting to play this game, cuz we all know thats just not true. Someone who really likes DaoC, RVR, old school mmo's etc arent going to turn their nose at this game due to non timed stealth which is prevalent in so many games (Rift, AoC, Wow, Daoc just to name a few)
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
I've skimmed over some of the posts since I contributed early on and as an old school stealth player, having played pretty much every single MMO stealth class to date from DAoC in the early naughties to GW2 now and everything else in between.
The games that have kept me playing are the ones that let me play how I want to play. The lone wolf assassin, a class that is capable of laying in wait and ambushing unsuspecting players.
If I were to think about stealth and how I would personally impliment it I'd take a look at modern day technology. We don't have "stealth" we have camoflauge. Take a look at snipers today wearing a ghillie suit, they stay still they are essentially invisible, they move they can be spotted although not as easily as someone wearing normal clothes walking around.
That's how I would impliment stealth into a game, if you want to move around your chance of being spotted is much higher than if you were stationary. If you stand still, like you would if waiting to ambush someone you'd be practically invisible unless someone was in your face.
I can understand where the frustration comes from when an assassin class "jumps" you and you get killed with little chance to react but thats how assassins work, not like a modern day sniper would shout "oi you over there, I'm gonna shoot you in a minute", it's just boom headshot!
Originally posted by Thupli Stealth should not be invisibility or a mechanic.
It should be a graphics effect that makes your character blend with the environment, much like a chameleon. Moving fast would make the silhouette of your toon kaleidoscope more as you pass through different colors, and moving slower should make you sillouette less noticeable.
That way it takes equal skill to both not be seen, and equal skill to be found.
Invisibility is a totally different story. It's super op, that is why only the One Ring could pull it off. Never give invis in an mmo. Unless it is a very very difficult item to get and has a serious cd.
Id like it to be an active camouflage, but the problem is if the game has tab targeting, whats the point?
This is a pretty easy one, whenever you are in camo mode your name plate disappears and you can only be click targeted.
A guy hiding in the bushes on a hill with a bow that pops out and starts raining arrows down on you as you walk through a valley, awesome. Could even lead to "ambush" points that so many games totally lack because they are afraid it would lead to PvE exploitation. Ambush points are a real and valid combat factor that make it so that sometimes it is better to take a whole army around a certain point than to risk being caught in the low ground
"Varus, on the second day, pressed on doggedly in that direction. On the third day, he and his troops were entering a passage between a hill and a huge swamp known as the Great Bog that, in places, was no more than 60 feet wide. As the increasingly chaotic and panicky mass of legionnaires, cavalrymen, mules and carts inched forward, Germans appeared from behind trees and sand-mound barriers, cutting off all possibility of retreat. “In open country, the superbly drilled and disciplined Romans would surely have prevailed,” says Wells. “But here, with no room to maneuver, exhausted after days of hit-and-run attacks, unnerved, they were at a crippling disadvantage.”
The person who can recreate that historic event in an MMO will have done a better job of limiting level as a factor in RvR combat than all the skill systems combined.
Some guy hiding behind a wall that jumps out as the messanger runs past (not that MMO's have messangers that would be CraZy) and slits his throat...also cool
The guy walking in "Stealth" mode in broad daylight across a sandy beach with no cover in sight? Stupid.
Stealthers actually weren't that powerful. Sure, they could devestate a sitting spell caster, but if they were standing it was still a real challenge to kill them, especially if you were an archer.
I remember the days of running to catch up my group in Midgard PvP (I forget the zone, this was over 10 years ago) and I was one shot by a Mid stealth (if I remember correctly a shadowblade) and he didn't even unstealth! So, travelling around in groups back then was just as bad as being solo. However, I do remember them being a pain to level, but once you are capped who cares about leveling. My 'fond' memory of stealth in DAoC, just wanted to share.
I personally cannot see Camelot Unchained being released without Stealth as a core mechanic and I especially cannot envision it with a gimped Stealth ala Warhammer Online or Guild Wars 2. Those types of timed Stealth feel like a complete waste of time as they do not go with a Stalker/Rogue/Thief type class to me. Then you have the fact that many of these timed styles also have quick restealth functions which tend to lead to latency or culling based issues making PvP more annoying than exciting.
When it comes to stealth I prefer permanent stealth rather than timed stealth. And by permanent I mean you move while stealthed (usually at reduced speed) and do not break stealth until you make an offensive combat attack. Now while I did (and sometimes still do) play a Rogue in WoW there are aspects from it that I do not like. The main being that it is so easy to go back into stealth even while in combat. I much prefer the older mechanic of being out of combat and entering stealth and once I attack stealth breaks and I cannot enter it again until a time limit has elapsed after the end of combat. My experience as a WoW Rogue for example spans 7500+ hours just on one of my rogues and I have 7 rogues Lvl 60+ not to mention other classes...
In DAoC (Classic Servers) my main was a Kobold Hunter (Zaitsev Legend) and I ran solo primarily or duo with a friend who was a Norse Shadowblade. We would look for the zergs and pick off stragglers in the back or find a nice bridge or dock and declare it as ours. On Gareth (and later Bossiney Cluster) we had some very fun "Stealther Wars" in these areas of high traffic and even on the offtimes when people would be trying to gather for assaults. These options gave us nice strategies to disrupt the enemy and get them to either die or chase us until we could re-stealth and circle back. We also had to have extra strategy for our duo since we were different stealth classes that required different positional attack abilities for efficiency so our teamwork had to be topnotch in order to remove people from the battlefield. This type of guerilla combat added a whole different level to the battlefield along with some classes being able to scale walls which added another whole degree of difficulty for defenders.
These types of diversity in combat I believe open up many new avenues for strategy in an Open World PvP style setting (call it RvR, WvW, etc). Now I know there is a large base of people who do not want stealth in the game because they feel it is a "cheap" or "unfair" advantage. However, at the same time classes that take advantage of this mechanic almost always suffer from Glass Cannon Syndrome and lack survivability once the initial attack or combo has been spent. This I think is very important for the Stealth mechanic to remain balanced as giving the Stealther Evasion/Parry/Block for damage mitigation takes over for them having lower base armor statistics (usually a low or medium armor is max compared to Heavy on a Tank class or equivalent mitigation factor) and other forms of damage mitigation such as Bladeturns, Heals, Damage Shields, etc.
I apologize for this post getting away from me in type count, but the Stealth/Invisibility mechanic is something I hold very dear to me and have used in MMORPG's since the days of Ultima Online and before then in various MUD/MUCK and Table-Top games. To me it is a very strong ability that needs equally as strong counters such as certain classes (or ranks/abilities of sorts) to be granted a "See Hidden/Stealth/Invisible/etc" type modifier so it's not a guaranteed ambush style unless you are specifically designed to be that way. Most of us who are following Camelot Unchained are experienced in various ways Stealth has been used over the years and I understand the trepidation that Mark has in inserting it within the game, but I feel my post here gives a better support for why it is a very wonderful mechanic to have in the game besides my own personal fondness for the ability.
Thanks for reading this and I look forward to attempting to explain better my stance toward any opposing comments to my points.
- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth
stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.
Well said.
Yes let people that hate assassins design the class. You could be the Mackey 2!
An yeah let the people that love the class design it, will most likely lead to alot of op factors in the class. No extreme should design thier prefered classes in a game at all, but steath should have some rather powerful disadventages to it as stealth is extremely op in most cases (most of all un-timed stealth.).
Stealth should always reduce your movement as you have to move much more carefully, also it should be affected by your distance to the target (and what way they are facing) with the distance prior you being detected being closer when from behind compared to infront. Also the fact of having a debuff applied or such when you are broken out of steath by someone else, such as by being spotted or such is a good idea, with for me it being more a confusion fact that you have a reduction in your effectiveness now (damage, movement, and such.). THis leads to you having to be much more careful of how you approach, while giving the other players advantages as well if they play well. Sorry but also stealthers are not the majority and should be catters to any more or less than anyother class or playstyle.
- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth
stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.
I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part. Maybe 10%. 50% would just be silly.
I bet you think the stealth guy should do double damage. You are proving the point that stealthers want to pawn without reasonable downsides. reducing damage is a great way to lower the power of stealth.
If you think stealth is interesting and adds challenge to YOUR game play, well that is cool. I don't think it works for either side of the issue.
You know stealthers wear leather right? You know they are pretty squishy right?
I didn't know you had played this game. Many games had this mechanic and the discussion is not limited to a single game. Duh.
I understand that many games have it. Just pointing out that this and most others I have played balanced them buy being squishy is all.
You could give him 1 hit point and zero armor. IF the guy he attacks from stealth doesn't survive the "weakness" doesn't matter. This is why you have to debuff dmg by say 50% (or another number).
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I would like to see stealth like planetside 1. If u stand still ur invis. If u walk u can see stealthers if u look or they move by/near you. If they crawl walk it is very hard but not impossible to notice them. And if you run it drains ur stamina and is super easy to see. It also costs stamina to move in stealth so you have to either crawl walk or stop moving to regain stamina.
Just an idea so it isn't just easy mode. But I could take it any way really
Comments
I am looking forward to this. I in no way would expect CU to provide a class that is OP or would ruin the game. Just to note, stealthers didnt kill DAoC.
I do agree that stealth needs to be built to work with an open world rvr game. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Theres many ways stealth can be done right, and many ways it can be done wrong. Personally I dont play "stealthers" because Im a mage through and through. But my brother usually does play the scouts. Honestly the whole timed / untimed part seems much less meaningful to me than having the mechanics to counter stealth.
It doesnt matter if its 5 secs or 5 minutes, if theres no counter, its OP and rediculous. I actually played EQ2 for many years, and they have alot of the right way to do things. First off, you cant limit it to a single class. Make sure theres some variety, maybe give it to all your scouts (rangers, hunters, assassins etc). You can even do invis for clothers and finger wigglers. Anyone who says its ok for stealth and not invis is pretty hypocritical. Hell you could even go The Elder Scrolls way and give it to everyone. Then it really does become about strategy, when to use it, and how.
Second, untimed is fine, but unnecessary. A 10 minute timer is more than sufficient. It gives you time to hide out and wait in ambush or scout movements, but not disappear for dinner and come back unharmed. Still will be permastealth because you can just recast it, but keeps you from AFKing indefinately.
Third, and most importantly, any damage should break stealth. The whole point of being sneaky is for people to not know youre there. Once youve been spotted and are under fire, you cant be sneaky anymore. Doesnt make sense that someone has you trained in thier sights and all of a sudden you just vanish before thier eyes. If they can hit you, its your fault for letting them know where you are. Also once you start attacking or dealing damage your stealth is broken, you shouldnt get more than the first hit, because once they take damage, again, they know youre there. Youre no longer being sneaky.
Other options, which are just that, options, are things like a see-stealth ability. A counter class like as described earlier that can force someone out of stealth, or even just lets them detect stealth alone. Same counters for invisibility for clothers if implemented. Always a check and balance system. I think EQ2 went too far and even had consumables to see stealth and invis (2 different things in EQ2). GW2 stealth atm is way too powerful in WvW, and EQ2 stealth was all but useless with all the ways to counter. A balance between the two is whats needed.
I really wonder the background, experience level, and career class choices of some of the people that hate stealth. It just boogles the mind to me. Being a stealther as a mature player, gave me one huge benefit.
The chance to solo or small group casually with no need for a huge group.
That was the main reason. Thats it. Time and I played at a huge disadvantage because we depended on each ohter, noone else, often in enemy areas. As I played more and more, Time and I worked up a reputation. To other alb players, people acted like we were celebrites. Not only would we go in and lock down a area but we would affect choke points to reinforcesments trying to get to a tower, keep, or just a big battle area. Thats pretty fun and a good tactic for the realms. I was a scout and Time a infil. So usually once my stleath was popped, my survival rate dropped drastically. It was tough to play like that but I enjoyed it. As we got better, we would make a rule of jumping 3 people, then 4, and finally 5. Why? Because we knew we were good. We knew the area, setup a battle plan, and even an emergency exit. We weren't sitting up near some spawn point area only jumping low RR casters. Not to mention we died. Ha we died a lot.
There were plenty of classes that designs nearly made me cancel so many times like vamps. A horrible, horrible idea. To this, I have three friends that still laugh at this game because long ago they all rolled vamps, thought the game was silly easy, quit, and never came back. So either way, I don't get the hate towards stealth. DAOC to me has always been a near realistic medievil war game. So back when I played hardcore, when I would see some solo caster running around in the frontiers, get ganked by one stealther, and then go to the forums to cry havoc. I always frowned like crazy. What were they expecting? Ha. As stealth we have one big edge. Suprise. Knowing there are career players who think sneaky. Who approaches fights with a quick kill and exit plan, why would you run around solo? I guess a better question would be, why are you playing a game that you will not be a super caster runnning solo?
As the game is currently, I still played solo since Time quit before I did. There were many times in which i'd cross a bridge and run right into hordes of enemy stealth. A sea of red. Run or fight. Kill one or two. I still died. But you know what? I'd release and go back to pick them off or go to another area. I liked to play so I adapted and I liked the challenge. Clearly stealth should not be how it is currently in DAOC but to say it should not be in this upcoming game is silly.
Silly enough to say to you Marc, from someone with business experience and formal educaiton, you will lose that playerbase, who would normally flock to your next game. So I think you should have stealth but configure it so both parties are happy to some extent.
I thnk all you have to do is a few things.
1. Make it so a stealthed player cannot move at full speed.
2. Make it a certain range in which any non stealther player can see you from their front.
3. Use the same setup in DAOC as far as the timer to resteath.
4. Put items and/or abilities in the game so for those players that really hate enemy stealth, they have options to access to counter it.
5. Put in rules to make it harder for people to have large groups of stealth working together to somewhat curve greifing.
6. Reduce overall stealth based on the amount of enemies in the area.
etc.
There are many things that can be done. The point is that you just can't make everyone happy. I talked to someone today in my office who has only played WoW and he said he hates stealth. Wonder why? Only because its the only class that can kill him in PVP. He laughed of course, but he was serious.
DAOC still has players and guess what, stealth is still in the game. Along with many other mmo's.
Stealth should not be invisibility or a mechanic.
It should be a graphics effect that makes your character blend with the environment, much like a chameleon. Moving fast would make the silhouette of your toon kaleidoscope more as you pass through different colors, and moving slower should make you sillouette less noticeable. Perhaps building in potency as you stand still, and being completely removed if damaged or attacking.
That way it takes equal skill to both not be seen, and equal skill to be found.
Invisibility is a totally different story. It's super op, that is why only the One Ring could pull it off. Never give invis in an mmo. Unless it is a very very difficult item to get and has a serious cd.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
This a million times over.
There is an alternative I believe that could work out the problems each side of the argument has. Have stealthers play more of a scouting role. Have a stealther go behind enemy lines to get a grasp on the strength of their forces. Aside from that, they could play as a typical ranger class. Don't give them a large damage buff when they attack from stealth, just give them tools to work with attacking unaware opponents and perhaps some escape tools (Not just being able to vanish on a cooldown. As much as I relied on skills like that in my WoW days, they were forced to rely on it too much).
Don't give them the ability to two shot everyone, but give them the ability to have the advantage over people who aren't paying attention to their surroundings. Half the fun in many MMOs (as well as other genres), was the fact of never knowing if you were being watched and hunted. In my opinion, a stealth based class plays as much of an important role in large scale battles as the heavy armor, shield using tank-type classes.
Id like it to be an active camouflage, but the problem is if the game has tab targeting, whats the point?
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
Stealth was the thing about DAOC I disliked most. If CU has it, there is a good chance it will be a dealbreaker for me. The only way that it might not be a dealbreaker is if the timer is very short, and the reuse timer is long.
The classes add nothing though. Better to just leave them out entirely.
I didn't know you had played this game. Many games had this mechanic and the discussion is not limited to a single game. Duh.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I probably should have just reported you. Not baiting. I will not respond.
And I have no issues with stealth.
I understand that many games have it. Just pointing out that this and most others I have played balanced them buy being squishy is all.
I remeber fighting against you guys (Albs) with my SB on Lancelot ( I think was the server)... Wasnt Timetrapper always in Blue dye?
haha yeah! I always wore all royal blue and I'll do it too in CU if they can meet our non-timed stealth requirements hehe. Me and Blackzorro were on Lamorak. But I was also on Lancelot too, years ago as an inf named Timetrapper as well, so yeah, wow can't believe that blue dye stuck in your mind all these years. what's it been like ten years? Though on lancelot, the scout I duo'd up with was Dragoo, he wore all green. Dunno what happened to him though, we lost touch what with no facebook and all back then. (Yo Dragoo!, send me a personal message if you read this!)
I quit Lance cuz I didnt wanna get a buff bot, was in college at the time so was short on funds. But I came back when buff bots were neutralized on those special servers like Lamorak. But yea, we'll link up together on CU then when it comes out. Good to meet one of the old guard stealthers from a decade ago.
Dragoo!! Theres a name I havent seen or heard in a long long time. And yea, he had all green lol. Man that brings back some great memories. We got in some great fights, I can still hear myself and my guildies screaming over vent " F'N Dragoo Shield slam again" After that we went to Merlin/gawain and rolled Alb slthrs. My guild is Death Syndicate and most of us still play games together, would be cool to run with you in CU (if it happens). Much respect for guys.
You say this with the memory of daoc assassins and snipers, where both did critical super-tard damage from stealth.
What if that were not the case? Who says a backstab on a guy wearing heavy armor has to critical hit? Or an arrow fired from stealth has to do more damage? Stealth classes are key for an RvR game even if you took away their crit strikes entirely. There could be many infiltration and sabotage roles a stealth class could play, in addition to joining up with a group and assisting dps.
I just can't imagine a daoc withou stealth.
Yeah. This isn't really a deal breaker for non stealthers wanting to play this game. Not sure how this idea got started that, if you have untimed stealth, people will completely lose interest in the game and ragequit. I wanna see the figures on when people cancel their subscriptions how many were actually on the record as, due to stealth.
Yes, this will cause people to rage quit, have a tantrum for 15 minutes, then log back in, but not quit forever or head for the hills, so lets just put a stop to that nonsense. So, I hope our core issue doesn't become an escape goat for people not wanting to play this game, cuz we all know thats just not true. Someone who really likes DaoC, RVR, old school mmo's etc arent going to turn their nose at this game due to non timed stealth which is prevalent in so many games (Rift, AoC, Wow, Daoc just to name a few)
I've skimmed over some of the posts since I contributed early on and as an old school stealth player, having played pretty much every single MMO stealth class to date from DAoC in the early naughties to GW2 now and everything else in between.
The games that have kept me playing are the ones that let me play how I want to play. The lone wolf assassin, a class that is capable of laying in wait and ambushing unsuspecting players.
If I were to think about stealth and how I would personally impliment it I'd take a look at modern day technology. We don't have "stealth" we have camoflauge. Take a look at snipers today wearing a ghillie suit, they stay still they are essentially invisible, they move they can be spotted although not as easily as someone wearing normal clothes walking around.
That's how I would impliment stealth into a game, if you want to move around your chance of being spotted is much higher than if you were stationary. If you stand still, like you would if waiting to ambush someone you'd be practically invisible unless someone was in your face.
I can understand where the frustration comes from when an assassin class "jumps" you and you get killed with little chance to react but thats how assassins work, not like a modern day sniper would shout "oi you over there, I'm gonna shoot you in a minute", it's just boom headshot!
This is a pretty easy one, whenever you are in camo mode your name plate disappears and you can only be click targeted.
A guy hiding in the bushes on a hill with a bow that pops out and starts raining arrows down on you as you walk through a valley, awesome. Could even lead to "ambush" points that so many games totally lack because they are afraid it would lead to PvE exploitation. Ambush points are a real and valid combat factor that make it so that sometimes it is better to take a whole army around a certain point than to risk being caught in the low ground
"Varus, on the second day, pressed on doggedly in that direction. On the third day, he and his troops were entering a passage between a hill and a huge swamp known as the Great Bog that, in places, was no more than 60 feet wide. As the increasingly chaotic and panicky mass of legionnaires, cavalrymen, mules and carts inched forward, Germans appeared from behind trees and sand-mound barriers, cutting off all possibility of retreat. “In open country, the superbly drilled and disciplined Romans would surely have prevailed,” says Wells. “But here, with no room to maneuver, exhausted after days of hit-and-run attacks, unnerved, they were at a crippling disadvantage.”
The person who can recreate that historic event in an MMO will have done a better job of limiting level as a factor in RvR combat than all the skill systems combined.
Some guy hiding behind a wall that jumps out as the messanger runs past (not that MMO's have messangers that would be CraZy) and slits his throat...also cool
The guy walking in "Stealth" mode in broad daylight across a sandy beach with no cover in sight? Stupid.
Well said.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I remember the days of running to catch up my group in Midgard PvP (I forget the zone, this was over 10 years ago) and I was one shot by a Mid stealth (if I remember correctly a shadowblade) and he didn't even unstealth! So, travelling around in groups back then was just as bad as being solo. However, I do remember them being a pain to level, but once you are capped who cares about leveling. My 'fond' memory of stealth in DAoC, just wanted to share.
Yes let people that hate assassins design the class. You could be the Mackey 2!
I personally cannot see Camelot Unchained being released without Stealth as a core mechanic and I especially cannot envision it with a gimped Stealth ala Warhammer Online or Guild Wars 2. Those types of timed Stealth feel like a complete waste of time as they do not go with a Stalker/Rogue/Thief type class to me. Then you have the fact that many of these timed styles also have quick restealth functions which tend to lead to latency or culling based issues making PvP more annoying than exciting.
When it comes to stealth I prefer permanent stealth rather than timed stealth. And by permanent I mean you move while stealthed (usually at reduced speed) and do not break stealth until you make an offensive combat attack. Now while I did (and sometimes still do) play a Rogue in WoW there are aspects from it that I do not like. The main being that it is so easy to go back into stealth even while in combat. I much prefer the older mechanic of being out of combat and entering stealth and once I attack stealth breaks and I cannot enter it again until a time limit has elapsed after the end of combat. My experience as a WoW Rogue for example spans 7500+ hours just on one of my rogues and I have 7 rogues Lvl 60+ not to mention other classes...
In DAoC (Classic Servers) my main was a Kobold Hunter (Zaitsev Legend) and I ran solo primarily or duo with a friend who was a Norse Shadowblade. We would look for the zergs and pick off stragglers in the back or find a nice bridge or dock and declare it as ours. On Gareth (and later Bossiney Cluster) we had some very fun "Stealther Wars" in these areas of high traffic and even on the offtimes when people would be trying to gather for assaults. These options gave us nice strategies to disrupt the enemy and get them to either die or chase us until we could re-stealth and circle back. We also had to have extra strategy for our duo since we were different stealth classes that required different positional attack abilities for efficiency so our teamwork had to be topnotch in order to remove people from the battlefield. This type of guerilla combat added a whole different level to the battlefield along with some classes being able to scale walls which added another whole degree of difficulty for defenders.
These types of diversity in combat I believe open up many new avenues for strategy in an Open World PvP style setting (call it RvR, WvW, etc). Now I know there is a large base of people who do not want stealth in the game because they feel it is a "cheap" or "unfair" advantage. However, at the same time classes that take advantage of this mechanic almost always suffer from Glass Cannon Syndrome and lack survivability once the initial attack or combo has been spent. This I think is very important for the Stealth mechanic to remain balanced as giving the Stealther Evasion/Parry/Block for damage mitigation takes over for them having lower base armor statistics (usually a low or medium armor is max compared to Heavy on a Tank class or equivalent mitigation factor) and other forms of damage mitigation such as Bladeturns, Heals, Damage Shields, etc.
I apologize for this post getting away from me in type count, but the Stealth/Invisibility mechanic is something I hold very dear to me and have used in MMORPG's since the days of Ultima Online and before then in various MUD/MUCK and Table-Top games. To me it is a very strong ability that needs equally as strong counters such as certain classes (or ranks/abilities of sorts) to be granted a "See Hidden/Stealth/Invisible/etc" type modifier so it's not a guaranteed ambush style unless you are specifically designed to be that way. Most of us who are following Camelot Unchained are experienced in various ways Stealth has been used over the years and I understand the trepidation that Mark has in inserting it within the game, but I feel my post here gives a better support for why it is a very wonderful mechanic to have in the game besides my own personal fondness for the ability.
Thanks for reading this and I look forward to attempting to explain better my stance toward any opposing comments to my points.
[Edit:] Spacing
Bear "replicant" Powell
"I am Shaolin-Style!"
An yeah let the people that love the class design it, will most likely lead to alot of op factors in the class. No extreme should design thier prefered classes in a game at all, but steath should have some rather powerful disadventages to it as stealth is extremely op in most cases (most of all un-timed stealth.).
Stealth should always reduce your movement as you have to move much more carefully, also it should be affected by your distance to the target (and what way they are facing) with the distance prior you being detected being closer when from behind compared to infront. Also the fact of having a debuff applied or such when you are broken out of steath by someone else, such as by being spotted or such is a good idea, with for me it being more a confusion fact that you have a reduction in your effectiveness now (damage, movement, and such.). THis leads to you having to be much more careful of how you approach, while giving the other players advantages as well if they play well. Sorry but also stealthers are not the majority and should be catters to any more or less than anyother class or playstyle.
You could give him 1 hit point and zero armor. IF the guy he attacks from stealth doesn't survive the "weakness" doesn't matter. This is why you have to debuff dmg by say 50% (or another number).
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I would like to see stealth like planetside 1. If u stand still ur invis. If u walk u can see stealthers if u look or they move by/near you. If they crawl walk it is very hard but not impossible to notice them. And if you run it drains ur stamina and is super easy to see. It also costs stamina to move in stealth so you have to either crawl walk or stop moving to regain stamina.
Just an idea so it isn't just easy mode. But I could take it any way really