Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Mark Jacobs/CU - Please read - Stealth mechanics like DAOC please

135678

Comments

  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 490Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lightingbird
    Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

    You can have perma stealth if

     

    -70% movement speed while stealthed

    -players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

    - you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

     

     

    stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

    I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part.  Maybe 10%.  50% would just be silly.  

    I.  Yeah, the above is pretty reasonable as well.  This is how DAOC was.  The movement speed was slowed considerably, people nearby (nonstealthers) could detect you if they got close enough.  As for the extra damage, that's fine, but maybe lower than 50%.

    II.  Secondly, I'd be ok with a stealth mechanic that caps a stealth group at 3 people.  That would hopefully prevent stealthers of 4 or more getting together.  Of course 8 guys could run around ungrouped over IRC or Vent, BUT, they wouldnt share rps and that group probably wouldnt last long cuz not everyone would be able to share in the pvp rewards.

     

    The problem is, most guys who like to run around alone and get smashed by stealthers won't compromise at all and just know one thing, "i can't run around alone like a moron without getting killed by you guys!, therefore you have no skill and stealth should be removed from games." 

     

    Honestly, if you like to run around alone unstealthed, why not just team up with a friend or two that compliment your style, that way you won't get attacked out there all by your lonesome.

     

    If you put stealth on a timer, you are just catering to a sliver of the nonstealthing community, which is the population of casual gamers who want to be able to run around a game alone down highly trafficked roads and just survive everything without grouping with anyone. Honestly, if your a tank/healer and you just grouped with 1 or 2 others who complimented your playstyle you wouldnt feel non timed stealth is OP. 

     

    But in the end, this vocal minority of nonstealthing loners who want to be able to run around and see everything coming, like its a FPS, are the ones who end up ruining the game for the entire stealthing community.

     

    Mark Jacobs please do not hurt the entire stealthing community for this small vocal fringe group of the nonstealth playing community who want the luxury of being able to run around in rvr alone and not get attacked and lose. 

     

     

    image
  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member

    Stealth is a crutch for bad anyway, i can sneak an unstealthed party up on a raid or party undetected, *gasp* by using terrain and LOS and you know...been sneaky...

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • cd3925cd3925 Spokane, WAPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

    You can have perma stealth if

     

    -70% movement speed while stealthed

    -players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

    - you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

     

     

    stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

    No stealth class in DAoC was "faceroll I-WIN Button. if you played one you would know this.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by CluckingChicken
     If you want to eliminate the risk of getting jumped, simply stick with your group if you're not good enough to fend for yourself.

    I always find it interesting when the people who start talking about "good enough" and "real pvp" always seem to be immersed in taking their opponent by surprise where they can fire upon them several times before their opponent even knows where they are.

    Where is the "good enough" in that?

    Is there such a thing as skill based stealth or a penalty for not doing it "right"? That would at least make it so that those who are stealthy have to be good as opposed to just hiding in order to be successful.

    I'm fine with real stealth and not some magic ability that cloaks players.

    There's no skill in that.

     

     

     I agree. No invis/stealth.

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 467Member Uncommon

    Folks,

       As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest. I've played stealthers and loved them. I've been killed by stealthers and hated them. All I can say for now is that this is going to be a big decision for us. We've talked about how to/how not to implement them in CU. We're kicking around some interesting mechanics but I won't commit to having them, not having them until we are sure that we are making the right decision for the game's Community.

       Please, keep giving us feedback here but I'm not going to get drawn into the debate about them yet. Like I said, I've played them, had fun with them but I don't want to implement them unless we have something that is fun for both the stealthers and for the players that kill them. :)

       As always, thanks for feedback and interest.

    Mark

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • HokibukisaHokibukisa Midland, GAPosts: 185Member

    I think there should be stealthers. Being in an empty field and feeling completely safe just isn't right.

     

    They.. they're watching..

    image

  • cd3925cd3925 Spokane, WAPosts: 29Member

    I have played every assassin class in DAoC to at least RR5 and most a lot higher. I ran in a small stealth guild. We prided ourselves in taking on full groups and or equal numbers. Some fights we won, some we lost. None of the stealther classes were I WIN buttons. They do take skill to play and each realm had a stealther to counter and detect with.

    It really sounds like most of the major complaints here are from people who were killed by a stelther when running alone. Try being an assassin in DAoC and hitting a RR5+ tank / zerker/ Bladmaster etc.. That was a tough fight even if you got off a good PA ( unless the other player sucked).

    I would like to see those crying about how old stealth is and how OP stealth is, to go make a one and be an I WIN BUTTON!- go try it!

    I understand why you bitch and moan about stealth, it is frustrating when a stealther can spend his "earned" RA  and vanish and then get away- thats frustrating, I agree. Vanish is on a timer. Also, you cant just restealth in DAoC while you are in combat unless Vanish is up!

    I agree with the statement before mentioned.... If stealth has no place then, neither does your beloved caster- or any magic.
  • shohenshohen Seattle, WAPosts: 53Member Uncommon

    I think there should be some type of stealth mechanic, but I don't like straight invisibility.

    Perhaps making the stealther partially transparent, with reduced movement would work. That way you would be required to move carefully with some thought to stay undetected and non-stealthers would still have to be wary in wooded or other shadowy areas.

    Give them an option of crawling for open areas or increased stealth.. Hard to see if they aren't moving, but still possible, and more visible when actively moving.

    image
  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    Originally posted by time007

    Honestly, if you like to run around alone unstealthed, why not just team up with a friend or two that compliment your style, that way you won't get attacked out there all by your lonesome.

     

    'If you like soloing, why don't you just group?'  Wait wut

     

    If you put stealth on a timer, you are just catering to a sliver of the nonstealthing community, which is the population of casual gamers who want to be able to run around a game alone down highly trafficked roads and just survive everything without groupin

    Uhh, seems to me that's what the stealther community wants.  Lol.

  • cd3925cd3925 Spokane, WAPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Folks,

       As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest.

    This scares the *&^% outta me... no stealthers (possibly) :-(

  • cd3925cd3925 Spokane, WAPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by redcapp
    Originally posted by time007

    Honestly, if you like to run around alone unstealthed, why not just team up with a friend or two that compliment your style, that way you won't get attacked out there all by your lonesome.

     

    'If you like soloing, why don't you just group?'  Wait wut

     

    If you put stealth on a timer, you are just catering to a sliver of the nonstealthing community, which is the population of casual gamers who want to be able to run around a game alone down highly trafficked roads and just survive everything without groupin

    Uhh, seems to me that's what the stealther community wants.  Lol.

    I would prefer GW2 stealth. I like being able to run around faster out of stealth and then go in and out of it in battle. I like both options though.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lightingbird
    Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

    You can have perma stealth if

     

    -70% movement speed while stealthed

    -players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

    - you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

     

     

    stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

    I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part.  Maybe 10%.  50% would just be silly.  

     I bet you think the stealth guy should do double damage.  You are proving the point that stealthers want to pawn without reasonable downsides.  reducing damage is a great way to lower the power of stealth. 

    If you think stealth is interesting and adds challenge to YOUR game play, well that is cool.  I don't think it works for either side of the issue. 

     

  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 490Member Uncommon

    Hi Mark,

     

    I know you are a busy guy and probably swamped working 10+ hours a day, so thanks for letting us know you appreciate our feedback.

     

    Career stealthers are a small minority, and most of us are not vocal at all.  Thats why I wanted to go indepth to give some insight into what we are thinking.  Most are lone wolves, though others participate in duos etc.  I think in the video or blog you talk about defined roles.  Just based off that, I think stealthers' defined role, is that of a shadow/invisible/ghost type guy, and not a "cloaked for a bit combat/skirmisher" that we've seen in the past 5 years. 

     

    I think most career stealthers lean towards that invisible hunter/stalker side of the spectrum, and people who casually/alt play as stealthers want the combat/skirmisher who has "combat stealth" as opposed to the "untimed" stealth we want.

     

    I suppose over the years of DAOC, stealthers got increasingly stronger by having things like more spec points, left axe, stronger dots, etc, which kind of mainstreamed our class.  I think just keeping our class as a niche type of invisible stalker class is more suitable, as opposed to allowing us to be "cloaked mercs".  The niche path is more suitable for the full-time career stealthers who will only roll stealthers.

     

    So I'm not saying gimp us completely fighting wise but give us non timed stealth and make it harder for your average joe to roll a stealther and be an invisible killing machine.  I.E. less spec points so you have to commit to stealth & thrust, instead of more spec points that allow you to cap stealth, thrust, and poisons. (or in order to get to non timed stealth, you can't get poison)

     

    I also am realistic in that, if you make stealthers able to fight better and survive in large melee's unstealthed, this will make the class more marketable to a larger % of the player base for alts etc. (though this will lead to more "my stealther is squishy in all-out melees please boost XYZ")  So I hope you can give the option for our small minority to be able to sacrifice our spec points for defense, melee, poison, range, what have you (though not complete immobility, we still need to get in place) in order to get non-timed stealth.  So just make it like a trade off I suppose hehe.

     

    Thank you.

     

    Best regards,

     

    Timetrapper.

    image
  • cd3925cd3925 Spokane, WAPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by lightingbird
    Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

    You can have perma stealth if

     

    -70% movement speed while stealthed

    -players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

    - you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

     

     

    stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

    I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part.  Maybe 10%.  50% would just be silly.  

     I bet you think the stealth guy should do double damage.  You are proving the point that stealthers want to pawn without reasonable downsides.  reducing damage is a great way to lower the power of stealth. 

    If you think stealth is interesting and adds challenge to YOUR game play, well that is cool.  I don't think it works for either side of the issue. 

     

    You know stealthers wear leather right? You know they are pretty squishy right?

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 467Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cd3925
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Folks,

       As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest.

    This scares the *&^% outta me... no stealthers (possibly) :-(

    That's the point of doing what we are doing now and will continue to do in terms of talking to players, getting feedback, talking at the studio. Contrary to what some people believe here, I've always been willing to hear what people other than myself think about things. Yeah, sometimes I get all self-righteous (like with the gold sellers, hackers, people who lie about me/friends/game, etc.) and yes, somtimes I come off way too strong but it's always been my job to help/protect the studio(s) and our game when I believe what is being said is wrong (based on either what I know or I'm being told by my team). However, the vast majority of time I'm like Johnny Five, I want input. At the studio it's a constant back and forth about stuff. So, when I say I really want feedback, I really mean it and when I say that well, we haven't decided yet, it's because we haven't.

    If we get funded, I think it is safe to say that those backers who wish to participate on the forums will have a fairly unique experience. I know some other studios and devs talk to the players after the game is launched and most MMORPGs do so during beta but we will get our backers into the forums day almost from day 1 (have to get the forums up and running, mods, etc.) and I and other devs will be there talking to them. The reason for this digression is that I expect this to be one of the most talked about topics. As I've said, we have been talking about some interesting mechanisms for implementing scout/ranger/assasin/etc. type of classes but we'll want our backers input on those ideas.

    Neither you nor people who hate stealthers have anything to worry about. No decision has been made and I'm certainly willing to consider any class type that can add something to the game and do so without pissing off the vast majority of people.

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Folks,

       As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest. I've played stealthers and loved them. I've been killed by stealthers and hated them. All I can say for now is that this is going to be a big decision for us. We've talked about how to/how not to implement them in CU. We're kicking around some interesting mechanics but I won't commit to having them, not having them until we are sure that we are making the right decision for the game's Community.

       Please, keep giving us feedback here but I'm not going to get drawn into the debate about them yet. Like I said, I've played them, had fun with them but I don't want to implement them unless we have something that is fun for both the stealthers and for the players that kill them. :)

       As always, thanks for feedback and interest.

    Mark

    Because someone said well you know we have this analytics data that says we can get this 8.34% players to buy the game if we have stealth and since everyone gona be siting in a scenario farming whats the harm? WAR was a scenario farming game and stealth there was not a big deal. In a 100% open RvR game it is a huge deal in fact a much bigger deal then in DAOC. So think carefully. Do you want to make everyone make an alt stealther for when they want to solo? it is a yes/no answer. If you do make stealth, if you do not then do not. People want to be able to solo make no mistake, I am sure you know it just might be a make it or break it decision.

     

    I love playing stealthers, it is satisfying to just kill people when you know you are not going to die unless you are drunk out of your mind or high as a kite but I also know how broken this is in open world. I am a careful conservative player who does not like giving people free points so if I apply that to a stealther where I pick when to fight on pure points per/hour basis I tend to die maybe once in couple days. It is just broken. Information assymetry is too much. It is like the guys who used radar in DAOC but better

     

    edit. think about that node gathering stuff you want for crafters, how do you think that will work? who wil be doing that and how..

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 467Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by time007

    Hi Mark,

     

    I know you are a busy guy and probably swamped working 10+ hours a day, so thanks for letting us know you appreciate our feedback.

     

    Career stealthers are small minority, and most of us are not vocal at all.  Thats why I wanted to go indepth to give some insight into what we are thinking.  Most are lone wolves, some participate in duos etc.  I think in the video or blog you talk about defined roles.  Just based off that, I think stealthers' defined role, is that of a shadow/invisible/ghost type guy, and not a "cloaked for a bit combat/skirmisher" that we've seen in the past 5 years. 

     

    I think most career stealthers lean towards that invisible hunter/stalker side of the spectrum, and people who casually/alt play as stealthers want the combat/skirmisher who has "combat stealth" as opposed to the "untimed" stealth we want.

     

    I suppose over the years of DAOC, stealthers got increasingly stronger by having things like more spec points, left axe, stronger dots, etc, which kind of mainstreamed our class.  I think just keeping our class as a niche type of invisible stalker class is suitable as opposed to allowing us to be cloaked mercs is more suitable for the full-time career stealthers who will only roll stealthers.

     

    So I'm not saying gimp us completely fighting wise but give us non timed stealth and make it harder for your average joe to roll a stealther, and be an invisible killing machine.  I.E. less spec points so you have to commit to stealth & thrust, instead of more spec points that allow you to cap stealth, thrust, and poisons. (or in order to get to non timed stealth, you can't get poison)

     

    I also am realistic in that, if you make stealthers able to fight better and survive in large melee's unstealthed, this will make the class more marketable to a larger % of the player base for alts etc. (though this will lead to more "my stealther is squishy in all-out melees please boost XYZ")  So I hope you can give the option for our small minority to be able to sacrifice our spec points for defense, melee, poison, range, what have you (though not complete immobility, we still need to get in place) in order to get non-timed stealth.  So just make it like a trade off I suppose hehe.

     

    Thank you.

     

    Best regards,

     

    Timetrapper.

    As per my message below, I intend to give our team and our backers (or people who post something interestin here) the time they need to make the best argument for their inclusion/exclusion. I'm a lot more patient, especially these days now that I'm independent again, past the personal stuff that wore me out during WAR and with a great bunch of guys/gals again.

    It's actually 14 hours and counting today and I'll be in office this weekend as well. :) I probably should have waited another month before starting the Kickstarter campaign but we've been so jazzed about the game we figured we should get started before the spring thaw.

    Thanks for the feedback/support. I know that stealthers get a bad name sometimes just as other classes do and that most of the long time stealther community does actually tend to be less vocal as you point out. That's one of the reasons why in the post below, I separated some of the basic archetypes that people use to describe stealther like characters. One blade does not fit all right? :)

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 467Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tlear
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Folks,

       As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest. I've played stealthers and loved them. I've been killed by stealthers and hated them. All I can say for now is that this is going to be a big decision for us. We've talked about how to/how not to implement them in CU. We're kicking around some interesting mechanics but I won't commit to having them, not having them until we are sure that we are making the right decision for the game's Community.

       Please, keep giving us feedback here but I'm not going to get drawn into the debate about them yet. Like I said, I've played them, had fun with them but I don't want to implement them unless we have something that is fun for both the stealthers and for the players that kill them. :)

       As always, thanks for feedback and interest.

    Mark

    Because someone said well you know we have this analytics data that says we can get this 8.34% players to buy the game if we have stealth and since everyone gona be siting in a scenario farming whats the harm? WAR was a scenario farming game and stealth there was not a big deal. In a 100% open RvR game it is a huge deal in fact a much bigger deal then in DAOC. So think carefully. Do you want to make everyone make an alt stealther for when they want to solo? it is a yes/no answer. If you do make stealth, if you do not then do not. People want to be able to solo make no mistake, I am sure you know it just might be a make it or break it decision.

     

    I love playing stealthers, it is satisfying to just kill people when you know you are not going to die unless you are drunk out of your mind or high as a kite but I also know how broken this is in open world. I am a careful conservative player who does not like giving people free points so if I apply that to a stealther where I pick when to fight on pure points per/hour basis I tend to die maybe once in couple days. It is just broken. Information assymetry is too much. It is like the guys who used radar in DAOC but better

     

    edit. think about that node gathering stuff you want for crafters, how do you think that will work? who wil be doing that and how..

    First paragraph = FTW, dead-on balls accurate, this, right on brother, etc., etc., etc. :) Sounds like you were in my office twice. Once back at Mythic and today, hmm.... :)

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs
    Originally posted by tlear
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Folks,

       As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest. I've played stealthers and loved them. I've been killed by stealthers and hated them. All I can say for now is that this is going to be a big decision for us. We've talked about how to/how not to implement them in CU. We're kicking around some interesting mechanics but I won't commit to having them, not having them until we are sure that we are making the right decision for the game's Community.

       Please, keep giving us feedback here but I'm not going to get drawn into the debate about them yet. Like I said, I've played them, had fun with them but I don't want to implement them unless we have something that is fun for both the stealthers and for the players that kill them. :)

       As always, thanks for feedback and interest.

    Mark

    Because someone said well you know we have this analytics data that says we can get this 8.34% players to buy the game if we have stealth and since everyone gona be siting in a scenario farming whats the harm? WAR was a scenario farming game and stealth there was not a big deal. In a 100% open RvR game it is a huge deal in fact a much bigger deal then in DAOC. So think carefully. Do you want to make everyone make an alt stealther for when they want to solo? it is a yes/no answer. If you do make stealth, if you do not then do not. People want to be able to solo make no mistake, I am sure you know it just might be a make it or break it decision.

     

    I love playing stealthers, it is satisfying to just kill people when you know you are not going to die unless you are drunk out of your mind or high as a kite but I also know how broken this is in open world. I am a careful conservative player who does not like giving people free points so if I apply that to a stealther where I pick when to fight on pure points per/hour basis I tend to die maybe once in couple days. It is just broken. Information assymetry is too much. It is like the guys who used radar in DAOC but better

     

    edit. think about that node gathering stuff you want for crafters, how do you think that will work? who wil be doing that and how..

    First paragraph = FTW, dead-on balls accurate, this, right on brother, etc., etc., etc. :) Sounds like you were in my office twice. Once back at Mythic and today, hmm.... :)

    Haha, never developed games but I been a programmer for a long time and seen it so much: "If only we can stuff this stick of dynamite up our collective ass and light it on fire.. we can totally increase out conversion rate by x" NO. Worst are developers who answer: Well you know maybe.. we could.. The "I told you so" just does not seem to be enough

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by shohen

    I think there should be some type of stealth mechanic, but I don't like straight invisibility.

    Perhaps making the stealther partially transparent, with reduced movement would work. That way you would be required to move carefully with some thought to stay undetected and non-stealthers would still have to be wary in wooded or other shadowy areas.

    Give them an option of crawling for open areas or increased stealth.. Hard to see if they aren't moving, but still possible, and more visible when actively moving.

    Like I said in my previous post.  Invisibility is crap.  If you move, there should be massive movement penalties and you should become alot more noticable...i.e. being targetable and transparent even from 30+ meters away.  You also shouldnt be allowed to restealth all willy nilly when being chased by your anti class.  Loved DAoC because on my Friar I was flat out the best class to combat stealth classes but the problem was I had no way to find them and even when I did, often times they would jsut sprint away with me following until their combat droped and they could restealth right in front of me, in the open!!!!!

     

    Giving the tools to combat stealth is a first priority if you want stealth to actually be fair.  Something tells me though the OP isn't looking for fairness.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 467Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by shohen

    I think there should be some type of stealth mechanic, but I don't like straight invisibility.

    Perhaps making the stealther partially transparent, with reduced movement would work. That way you would be required to move carefully with some thought to stay undetected and non-stealthers would still have to be wary in wooded or other shadowy areas.

    Give them an option of crawling for open areas or increased stealth.. Hard to see if they aren't moving, but still possible, and more visible when actively moving.

    Like I said in my previous post.  Invisibility is crap.  If you move, there should be massive movement penalties and you should become alot more noticable...i.e. being targetable and transparent even from 30+ meters away.  You also shouldnt be allowed to restealth all willy nilly when being chased by your anti class.  Loved DAoC because on my Friar I was flat out the best class to combat stealth classes but the problem was I had no way to find them and even when I did, often times they would jsut sprint away with me following until their combat droped and they could restealth right in front of me, in the open!!!!!

     

    Giving the tools to combat stealth is a first priority if you want stealth to actually be fair.  Something tells me though the OP isn't looking for fairness.

    Fairness and balance are indeed the key, I agree with you A.

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs
    Originally posted by time007

    Hi Mark,

     

    I know you are a busy guy and probably swamped working 10+ hours a day, so thanks for letting us know you appreciate our feedback.

     

    Career stealthers are small minority, and most of us are not vocal at all.  Thats why I wanted to go indepth to give some insight into what we are thinking.  Most are lone wolves, some participate in duos etc.  I think in the video or blog you talk about defined roles.  Just based off that, I think stealthers' defined role, is that of a shadow/invisible/ghost type guy, and not a "cloaked for a bit combat/skirmisher" that we've seen in the past 5 years. 

     

    I think most career stealthers lean towards that invisible hunter/stalker side of the spectrum, and people who casually/alt play as stealthers want the combat/skirmisher who has "combat stealth" as opposed to the "untimed" stealth we want.

     

    I suppose over the years of DAOC, stealthers got increasingly stronger by having things like more spec points, left axe, stronger dots, etc, which kind of mainstreamed our class.  I think just keeping our class as a niche type of invisible stalker class is suitable as opposed to allowing us to be cloaked mercs is more suitable for the full-time career stealthers who will only roll stealthers.

     

    So I'm not saying gimp us completely fighting wise but give us non timed stealth and make it harder for your average joe to roll a stealther, and be an invisible killing machine.  I.E. less spec points so you have to commit to stealth & thrust, instead of more spec points that allow you to cap stealth, thrust, and poisons. (or in order to get to non timed stealth, you can't get poison)

     

    I also am realistic in that, if you make stealthers able to fight better and survive in large melee's unstealthed, this will make the class more marketable to a larger % of the player base for alts etc. (though this will lead to more "my stealther is squishy in all-out melees please boost XYZ")  So I hope you can give the option for our small minority to be able to sacrifice our spec points for defense, melee, poison, range, what have you (though not complete immobility, we still need to get in place) in order to get non-timed stealth.  So just make it like a trade off I suppose hehe.

     

    Thank you.

     

    Best regards,

     

    Timetrapper.

    As per my message below, I intend to give our team and our backers (or people who post something interestin here) the time they need to make the best argument for their inclusion/exclusion. I'm a lot more patient, especially these days now that I'm independent again, past the personal stuff that wore me out during WAR and with a great bunch of guys/gals again.

    It's actually 14 hours and counting today and I'll be in office this weekend as well. :) I probably should have waited another month before starting the Kickstarter campaign but we've been so jazzed about the game we figured we should get started before the spring thaw.

    Thanks for the feedback/support. I know that stealthers get a bad name sometimes just as other classes do and that most of the long time stealther community does actually tend to be less vocal as you point out. That's one of the reasons why in the post below, I separated some of the basic archetypes that people use to describe stealther like characters. One blade does not fit all right? :)

     Ok, I want to see the dev designer answer.  Character A does 100DPS, character B has invisible type of steath.  What DPS Would you give to B to make B balanced to A?  Or would design B to be equal to A plus stealth?

     

  • mugsiemugsie Massillon, OHPosts: 5Member

    I never play stealth classes but I certainly would like to see them implemented. Having to deal with a sneaky bastard is fun and challenging sometimes.  The stealth war in DAoC was a whole separate game within a game and not having it would have only detracted from DAoC as a whole.

     

    From an RP/sandbox point of view, a  network of stealthed scout-type classes in an rvr setting really lends to immersion and realm unity.  It is just like crafters being able to make a name for themselves.  Some people could just scout all day, every day  .. relaying info to their realm.  Players could maybe even advance in some way from relaying good intel.  I would rather get info from a reliable scout than have a big flashing arrow on a map that say FIGHT HERE.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,904Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    Like I said in my previous post.  Invisibility is crap.  If you move, there should be massive movement penalties and you should become alot more noticable...i.e. being targetable and transparent even from 30+ meters away.  You also shouldnt be allowed to restealth all willy nilly when being chased by your anti class.  Loved DAoC because on my Friar I was flat out the best class to combat stealth classes but the problem was I had no way to find them and even when I did, often times they would jsut sprint away with me following until their combat droped and they could restealth right in front of me, in the open!!!!!

     

    Giving the tools to combat stealth is a first priority if you want stealth to actually be fair.  Something tells me though the OP isn't looking for fairness.

    Without the element of surprise stealth classes are worthless in most cases. Stealth is the most important tool to such a class, gimping that ability can severly gimp the class. It can also remove any sensible reason to create such a class. Personally I've never had a problem with stealth mechanics, not from a PVP perspective nor a realism one. They serve a good purpose in my opinion, mostly recon and spying. they're also good to send in, in order to pull the enemy out of a fortified location.

    Anyway I feel there's little reason to create the class if the ability to stealth is gimped as suggested by Azz.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 490Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by shohen

    I think there should be some type of stealth mechanic, but I don't like straight invisibility.

    Perhaps making the stealther partially transparent, with reduced movement would work. That way you would be required to move carefully with some thought to stay undetected and non-stealthers would still have to be wary in wooded or other shadowy areas.

    Give them an option of crawling for open areas or increased stealth.. Hard to see if they aren't moving, but still possible, and more visible when actively moving.

    Like I said in my previous post.  Invisibility is crap.  If you move, there should be massive movement penalties and you should become alot more noticable...i.e. being targetable and transparent even from 30+ meters away.  You also shouldnt be allowed to restealth all willy nilly when being chased by your anti class.  Loved DAoC because on my Friar I was flat out the best class to combat stealth classes but the problem was I had no way to find them and even when I did, often times they would jsut sprint away with me following until their combat droped and they could restealth right in front of me, in the open!!!!!

     

    Giving the tools to combat stealth is a first priority if you want stealth to actually be fair.  Something tells me though the OP isn't looking for fairness.

    Yeah i had the same issue with hunters when I had my infil.  They had a speed boost and would kite me and sick their pets on me.  But I'm not anti-pet.  Nor am I anti-speed boost.  Neither am I anti-battle heals. 

     

    Though I dont like to go into individual battle stories where XYZ skill saved that guy i was fighting, otherwise the list would be uber long and I dont want to nerf some other classes bread and butter, so why water down or nerf my bread and butter?  You got your battle heals, some guys have ignore pain, others have <ugh> vamp claw spam, stun, mez, and casters have uber AE.  The list goes on and on.  But these things don't need to be nerfed or adjusted to "today's gaming standards".  For example, Ignore pain was taken away from assassins, and even I think you had to dump a ton of points into it if you wanted a full bar of health.  You still got your full bar of IP right?  You just had to commit to it.  That's kind of the point of my post.  Give us a nontimed stealth option but make it a career/gamestyle choice and not a FoTM average joe alt option.

     

    Un-timed stealth doesn't kill anyone, the player using it does.  Ok, I lied, ill go into a battle scenario.  In my prime, I took out 5 low RR stealther by myself on a bridge singlehandlely.  (they trickled at me, so it wasn't just 5 at the same time).  those guys had non timed stealth but were taken down.  There were high RR heretics that would run out to bridges and beg those FotM stealthers to attack them.  So non-timed stealth is just a tool used by us, the same way you use your battle heals and instas.  If you pop your insta at the wrong time, you'll lose right?  So guys know when to attack chain, stun, and battle heal right?  So there are tons of elements that we can look at as unfair.  I just dont remember there being a mass exodus from DAOC due to non timed stealth.  I remember exodus's of players due to TOA, vamps, buff bots, etc.  So DAOC proved, if done well, untimed stealth is viable.

    image
Sign In or Register to comment.