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Item decay is treadmill gaming, permadeath is score gaming

AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member

What I feel in many threads discussions is that people forget that games are supposed to be fun.

Fun can be story content, or it can be socialization, or it can be challenges of sorts.

 

However, if you introduce stuff like item decay into your game, it doesnt mean that crafting is important in your game. It means crafting is a hassle. It means crafting just HAS to be done, all the time, again and again, and is thus a timewaster. It means a sane player will script their crafting because they cant avoid it - even if it needs zip thinking and has zip entertainment value.

Item decay makes complex items impossible. Working for hours at a single item is just not an option anymore.

Thus, item decay is treadmill gaming. It trivialized content and it keeps players busy with an inherently dull action.

Crafting as an entertaining game element means it must offer a challenge. It means your crafting system would have to be complex and powerful, making it possible to spend extended length of time for better results. An ideal crafting system would allow you to spend weeks in the process of crafting the ultimate item, and months to collect the ultimate ingredients. Then crafting has entertainment value because you actually archieve something.

Permadeath has the same problem. People demand permadeath to make games "harder". But in reality, permadeath is usually creating games that are easier, or even simply trivial. They are score games - you check out how long your character can survive, and then when ultimately your character will die, you get a score. Thats all the game is about - get the highest score. Any attempt to introduce real complexity into such a game is pretty much superflous. Thus the game turn really easy, they are typically twitch based, like Tetris.

There are exceptions. You can make the permadeath mode a special mode of an ordinary RPG. Like the hardcore mode of Diablo 2. Or you can introduce elements that can compensate for permadeath - like clones in EVE.

Diablo 2 hardcore mode works because there is a non-hardcore mode where you can test what works and what doesnt work, thus removing the potential immense frustration from the hardcore mode. Hardcore mode in Diablo 2 is still a score game, though - it includes the toplists. And you can basically "cheat" - you can store the good drops gained in the hardcore mode on a second character that isnt exploring and thus doesnt face the danger of permadeath, so while the character will be gone, the good drops will still be there.

EVE works because thanks to stuff like cloning. It is thus not actually really permadeath.

If you introduce such loopholes, a game can be complex and technically have permadeath and make sense as a game concept. But in general, permadeath means your game is pretty shallow and just a score game.

 

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Comments

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member
    My comments in green!
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    What I feel in many threads discussions is that people forget that games are supposed to be fun.

    Fun can be story content, or it can be socialization, or it can be challenges of sorts.

     

    However, if you introduce stuff like item decay into your game, it doesnt mean that crafting is important in your game. It means crafting is a hassle. It means crafting just HAS to be done, all the time, again and again, and is thus a timewaster. It means a sane player will script their crafting because they cant avoid it - even if it needs zip thinking and has zip entertainment value.

    Even in the MMORPGs that had item decay, namely for me Pre-NGE SWG, you were never forced into Crafting.  Not once in the years I played did the game force me to do crafting, and I was a predominantly combat type of player.  What WAS occuring though were crafters / merchants selling gear, and the player was free to shop around to get a good bargain for the credits they were willing to fork out.  You could of course negotiate with a crafter for a more specialize need.

    Again: Item Decay == Forcing Non-Interested Players Into Crafting

    Item decay makes complex items impossible. Working for hours at a single item is just not an option anymore.

    Thus, item decay is treadmill gaming. It trivialized content and it keeps players busy with an inherently dull action.

    Define complex items?  If you're meaning varied stats and such, crafting can do that. For example again, SWG's outstanding crafting system allowed a knowledgeable crafter to make items with greatly varying stats for a like item, depending on the materials used, rare components, quality of tools, and of course, what the crafter knew of the game.

    A blaster carbine for instance, if the crafter knew what he was doing, can make that weapon with powerful damage per shot, accurate at medium ranges, but costing more points to use per attack.  On the other hand, if a customer wishes, he can try to design that same blaster carbine with poor-moderate accuracy, high damage, low usage costs/attack to spam powerful attacks.  Or maybe some other customer wants a "well-rounded" version.  The sky was the limit.

    The system also allowed more powerful versions of those very same items to be made, if the rare components are made available.

    Crafting as an entertaining game element means it must offer a challenge. It means your crafting system would have to be complex and powerful, making it possible to spend extended length of time for better results. An ideal crafting system would allow you to spend weeks in the process of crafting the ultimate item, and months to collect the ultimate ingredients. Then crafting has entertainment value because you actually archieve something.

    I'd like to offer again, SWG's crafting system as a great example.  Browse around on the internets and this site's old SWG forums, and even this very subforum, and you will frequently find praise for SWG's system.  A good crafting system should be deep enough for players to enjoy.  They learn the nuances and the trade on what it takes to be a good crafter, and it took time and dedication.  A good crafter on a server in the 'ol days of Pre-NGE SWG had a known reputation on the server.  On down times, adventurers would argue as to who was the best weaponsmith, armorsmith, etc. on the server was.  The syste was done so well that we had players who totally dedicated every skillpoint, every bit of their playtime to crafting and running their in-game business.  You had players, that never, ever bothered to lift a weapon to fight, no ounce of points dedicated to any combat ability.  Just crafting and doing business.  That was what a good crafting and game economy did.

    And the best part of it all?  If the idea of a really deep crafting system scares you, the game never forced you into it.  What you did do though was learn to find who the good merchants were.  Some try to gouge you, but shop around and you know what the normal going rate is for a product, and you knew who the good merchants were from the sheisty ones.
     

    Some other points I want to add regarding Item Decay and how much it mattered in Pre-NGE SWG (Pre fall of 2005).

    1.  Powerful items were kept in control.  They never stayed in permanent existence because they eventually wear out, or that the owner kept it for special occasions like important PVP sessions or whatever.

    2.  With the regulation of high-end items, other bits of gear were viable.  If I wanted to, I can purchase average costing & quality gear and hop onto PVP and not feel like a speedbump due to my gear.

    3.  A chance for crafters to gain repeated business from a customer.  Since your weapons, armor, etc. wear out, the adventurer needs to find replacements.  Which leads into...

    4.  Fair pricing... And that adventurer will seek a merchant that can offer him the best items for his money.  Crafters competed to get your business back by offering a compromise in quality and cost to the adventurer.  You learned to avoid the rip-offs, and who offered a good deal.  With the chance for the repeated business, gear was fairly priced.  In 20004, when things were humming along nicely in the game, a quality set of all 7 pieces of Composite Armor costed a buyer anywhere from 150k-220k credits, depending on the market for quality resources available.  When the game did away with item decay, it skyrocketed to the millions.  Without the decay, crafters needed to get all their money they can possibly get with that 1 purchase that you will ever make with them.  With the decay, they knew you were always looking for more, and the game was one between them to earn your business (preferrably repeated).

    ====

    The way I see it, in terms of crafting, combat, and the economy, my ideal MMORPG would have.

    a. Deep crafting system for those that want to dive into it.

    b. Crafting should never be forced.  But again, it is there for those that want a totally different style of play that they could, in effect, totally replace their combat time with it.

    c.  A healthy, constant cycle.  Combat adventurers (PVP or PVE oriented) always will need quality gear, and will seek out a good deal for those replacements.  And Crafters in return compete to offer such gear.

    ====

    A side note in how SWG additionally handled the relationship between dedicated fighters and dedicated crafters/merchants.  For the truly high-end items, you of course needed high-end, rare components.  Quite oftenly, this was only found by taking down some very powerful NPCs / Creatures / etc.  This means the fighting types get that stuff.  On the other hand, you needed a competent crafter with quality tools to make you the best item possible for your hard-earned reward.

    This was where you learned to bargain and work something out.  That high-end final product can net the crafter great cash, but they don't want to set their services cost so high that the customer is put off to look for business elsewhere.  I've worked out many deals with crafters with some hard earned components.

    Hell, on the old Ahazi Server, I still, after all these years since I left the game in 2005, remember my favorite weaponsmith's character name.  A Rodian by the name of 'Az.  The guy got me good deals and I've frequently recommended him to friends in the game since the guy made quality products at competitive prices.

    A good MMORPG, IMO, should have any player, despite their angle of play, potentially be a key member of the server.  That crafter and dedicated combatant should both feel that the game offers them good play despite what their preferred method of play be.  And they all need each other at one point or another.  And *maybe* because you need each other at one point or another, develop a better sense of community.

    "No man is an island," and that should be true in an MMORPG.  Again, my opinion.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member

    This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7.

    Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good  player driven economy.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,659Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    What I feel in many threads discussions is that people forget that games are supposed to be fun.

    Fun can be story content, or it can be socialization, or it can be challenges of sorts.

     

    However, if you introduce stuff like item decay into your game, it doesnt mean that crafting is important in your game. It means crafting is a hassle. It means crafting just HAS to be done, all the time, again and again, and is thus a timewaster. It means a sane player will script their crafting because they cant avoid it - even if it needs zip thinking and has zip entertainment value.

    Item decay makes complex items impossible. Working for hours at a single item is just not an option anymore.

    Thus, item decay is treadmill gaming. It trivialized content and it keeps players busy with an inherently dull action.

    Crafting as an entertaining game element means it must offer a challenge. It means your crafting system would have to be complex and powerful, making it possible to spend extended length of time for better results. An ideal crafting system would allow you to spend weeks in the process of crafting the ultimate item, and months to collect the ultimate ingredients. Then crafting has entertainment value because you actually archieve something.

    Permadeath has the same problem. People demand permadeath to make games "harder". But in reality, permadeath is usually creating games that are easier, or even simply trivial. They are score games - you check out how long your character can survive, and then when ultimately your character will die, you get a score. Thats all the game is about - get the highest score. Any attempt to introduce real complexity into such a game is pretty much superflous. Thus the game turn really easy, they are typically twitch based, like Tetris.

    There are exceptions. You can make the permadeath mode a special mode of an ordinary RPG. Like the hardcore mode of Diablo 2. Or you can introduce elements that can compensate for permadeath - like clones in EVE.

    Diablo 2 hardcore mode works because there is a non-hardcore mode where you can test what works and what doesnt work, thus removing the potential immense frustration from the hardcore mode. Hardcore mode in Diablo 2 is still a score game, though - it includes the toplists. And you can basically "cheat" - you can store the good drops gained in the hardcore mode on a second character that isnt exploring and thus doesnt face the danger of permadeath, so while the character will be gone, the good drops will still be there.

    EVE works because thanks to stuff like cloning. It is thus not actually really permadeath.

    If you introduce such loopholes, a game can be complex and technically have permadeath and make sense as a game concept. But in general, permadeath means your game is pretty shallow and just a score game.

     

    I take it you're not a UO fan.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7.

    Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good  player driven economy.

    And yet it is a major inconvenience to those who are uninterested in crafting and economy - and they are a majority among gamers. The net sum is negative. Find another way to drive economy.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,205Member Uncommon

    I'm not a huge fan of permanent item decay (like DDO and others) or in permadeath for MMOs.

    I do think there should be incentive to remove items from the game and there should be setbacks for making foolish choices.   The item systems I've liked the most have been those that offer an enchantment process to make the item more powerful, but risk the possibility of item destruction on a critical failure.  If base items are common enough, and can be supplied through crafting or adventuring, and the enchantment process is engaging then people will blow items and keep that flow of trade moving.

    Likewise, penalties for combat failure shouldn't discourage game play or risk taking, but they should encourage smart play.  This is trickier than itemization though and worth its own discussion.  The penalties for failure are more highly dependant on how the entire game is designed.

  • mastersam21mastersam21 Long Beach, CAPosts: 43Member Uncommon
    When you design a game for the net sum in my eyes you already failed no matter how financially successful the game become. 

    image

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7.

    Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good  player driven economy.

    And yet it is a major inconvenience to those who are uninterested in crafting and economy - and they are a majority among gamers. The net sum is negative. Find another way to drive economy.

     

    They are not forced in anyway to craft anything they can hack mobs left and right how much they like so i fail to see your point.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7.

    Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good  player driven economy.

    And yet it is a major inconvenience to those who are uninterested in crafting and economy - and they are a majority among gamers. The net sum is negative. Find another way to drive economy.

     

    They are not forced in anyway to craft anything they can hack mobs left and right how much they like so i fail to see your point.

    is it?  Is it?  It is?  My favourite poster, Torgrim.  Hey mate.  I agree.  

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    The OP makes the usual snap conclusions based on the premise that "most people think like me and like what I like". So he then blithely declares that because "most players" hate item decay and permadeath, these features should never appear in MMO's.

    Wrong.

    Those features should not appear in MMO's that are aiming at the mass market. But there's plenty of scope for those features in games that target a specific subset of the overall playerbase.

    We need more diversity in game choices, not a homogenised and sanitised collection of games that appeal to the widest possible audience.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,940Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Warmaker

    My comments in green!
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    What I feel in many threads discussions is that people forget that games are supposed to be fun.

    Fun can be story content, or it can be socialization, or it can be challenges of sorts.

     

    However, if you introduce stuff like item decay into your game, it doesnt mean that crafting is important in your game. It means crafting is a hassle. It means crafting just HAS to be done, all the time, again and again, and is thus a timewaster. It means a sane player will script their crafting because they cant avoid it - even if it needs zip thinking and has zip entertainment value.

    Even in the MMORPGs that had item decay, namely for me Pre-NGE SWG, you were never forced into Crafting.  Not once in the years I played did the game force me to do crafting, and I was a predominantly combat type of player.  What WAS occuring though were crafters / merchants selling gear, and the player was free to shop around to get a good bargain for the credits they were willing to fork out.  You could of course negotiate with a crafter for a more specialize need.

    Again: Item Decay == Forcing Non-Interested Players Into Crafting

    Item decay makes complex items impossible. Working for hours at a single item is just not an option anymore.

    Thus, item decay is treadmill gaming. It trivialized content and it keeps players busy with an inherently dull action.

    Define complex items?  If you're meaning varied stats and such, crafting can do that. For example again, SWG's outstanding crafting system allowed a knowledgeable crafter to make items with greatly varying stats for a like item, depending on the materials used, rare components, quality of tools, and of course, what the crafter knew of the game.

    A blaster carbine for instance, if the crafter knew what he was doing, can make that weapon with powerful damage per shot, accurate at medium ranges, but costing more points to use per attack.  On the other hand, if a customer wishes, he can try to design that same blaster carbine with poor-moderate accuracy, high damage, low usage costs/attack to spam powerful attacks.  Or maybe some other customer wants a "well-rounded" version.  The sky was the limit.

    The system also allowed more powerful versions of those very same items to be made, if the rare components are made available.

    Crafting as an entertaining game element means it must offer a challenge. It means your crafting system would have to be complex and powerful, making it possible to spend extended length of time for better results. An ideal crafting system would allow you to spend weeks in the process of crafting the ultimate item, and months to collect the ultimate ingredients. Then crafting has entertainment value because you actually archieve something.

    I'd like to offer again, SWG's crafting system as a great example.  Browse around on the internets and this site's old SWG forums, and even this very subforum, and you will frequently find praise for SWG's system.  A good crafting system should be deep enough for players to enjoy.  They learn the nuances and the trade on what it takes to be a good crafter, and it took time and dedication.  A good crafter on a server in the 'ol days of Pre-NGE SWG had a known reputation on the server.  On down times, adventurers would argue as to who was the best weaponsmith, armorsmith, etc. on the server was.  The syste was done so well that we had players who totally dedicated every skillpoint, every bit of their playtime to crafting and running their in-game business.  You had players, that never, ever bothered to lift a weapon to fight, no ounce of points dedicated to any combat ability.  Just crafting and doing business.  That was what a good crafting and game economy did.

    And the best part of it all?  If the idea of a really deep crafting system scares you, the game never forced you into it.  What you did do though was learn to find who the good merchants were.  Some try to gouge you, but shop around and you know what the normal going rate is for a product, and you knew who the good merchants were from the sheisty ones.
     

    Some other points I want to add regarding Item Decay and how much it mattered in Pre-NGE SWG (Pre fall of 2005).

    1.  Powerful items were kept in control.  They never stayed in permanent existence because they eventually wear out, or that the owner kept it for special occasions like important PVP sessions or whatever.

    2.  With the regulation of high-end items, other bits of gear were viable.  If I wanted to, I can purchase average costing & quality gear and hop onto PVP and not feel like a speedbump due to my gear.

    3.  A chance for crafters to gain repeated business from a customer.  Since your weapons, armor, etc. wear out, the adventurer needs to find replacements.  Which leads into...

    4.  Fair pricing... And that adventurer will seek a merchant that can offer him the best items for his money.  Crafters competed to get your business back by offering a compromise in quality and cost to the adventurer.  You learned to avoid the rip-offs, and who offered a good deal.  With the chance for the repeated business, gear was fairly priced.  In 20004, when things were humming along nicely in the game, a quality set of all 7 pieces of Composite Armor costed a buyer anywhere from 150k-220k credits, depending on the market for quality resources available.  When the game did away with item decay, it skyrocketed to the millions.  Without the decay, crafters needed to get all their money they can possibly get with that 1 purchase that you will ever make with them.  With the decay, they knew you were always looking for more, and the game was one between them to earn your business (preferrably repeated).

    ====

    The way I see it, in terms of crafting, combat, and the economy, my ideal MMORPG would have.

    a. Deep crafting system for those that want to dive into it.

    b. Crafting should never be forced.  But again, it is there for those that want a totally different style of play that they could, in effect, totally replace their combat time with it.

    c.  A healthy, constant cycle.  Combat adventurers (PVP or PVE oriented) always will need quality gear, and will seek out a good deal for those replacements.  And Crafters in return compete to offer such gear.

    ====

    A side note in how SWG additionally handled the relationship between dedicated fighters and dedicated crafters/merchants.  For the truly high-end items, you of course needed high-end, rare components.  Quite oftenly, this was only found by taking down some very powerful NPCs / Creatures / etc.  This means the fighting types get that stuff.  On the other hand, you needed a competent crafter with quality tools to make you the best item possible for your hard-earned reward.

    This was where you learned to bargain and work something out.  That high-end final product can net the crafter great cash, but they don't want to set their services cost so high that the customer is put off to look for business elsewhere.  I've worked out many deals with crafters with some hard earned components.

    Hell, on the old Ahazi Server, I still, after all these years since I left the game in 2005, remember my favorite weaponsmith's character name.  A Rodian by the name of 'Az.  The guy got me good deals and I've frequently recommended him to friends in the game since the guy made quality products at competitive prices.

    A good MMORPG, IMO, should have any player, despite their angle of play, potentially be a key member of the server.  That crafter and dedicated combatant should both feel that the game offers them good play despite what their preferred method of play be.  And they all need each other at one point or another.  And *maybe* because you need each other at one point or another, develop a better sense of community.

    "No man is an island," and that should be true in an MMORPG.  Again, my opinion.

     

    As a longtime crafter in original SWG, I agree on all points. Removing decay and making the loot the center of the economy were among the worst changes to that game during its early life.
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7.

    Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good  player driven economy.

    And yet it is a major inconvenience to those who are uninterested in crafting and economy - and they are a majority among gamers. The net sum is negative. Find another way to drive economy.

    They are not forced in anyway to craft anything they can hack mobs left and right how much they like so i fail to see your point.

    Just think your proposition through for once! Item decay brings along with it...

    • maintaining gear - if not self then relying on someone else
    • keeping spares - if not in inventory then somewhere relatively close by -> moving becomes a hassle
    • re-acquiring gear or acquiring wealth to re-acquire gear - a whole new treadmill
    • breaks the pace whenever you have to do any of the above
    Those are things that you don't have to do when you don't have item decay. Everything in that list is uninteresting. You'd be introducing a whole bag of new inconveniences and a whole lot of grind to a lot of players. Sounds like a bad deal to them. Why should they support item decay in a game?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7.

    Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good  player driven economy.

    And yet it is a major inconvenience to those who are uninterested in crafting and economy - and they are a majority among gamers. The net sum is negative. Find another way to drive economy.

    They are not forced in anyway to craft anything they can hack mobs left and right how much they like so i fail to see your point.

    Just think your proposition through for once! Item decay brings along with it...

    • maintaining gear - if not self then relying on someone else
    • keeping spares - if not in inventory then somewhere relatively close by -> moving becomes a hassle
    • re-acquiring gear or acquiring wealth to re-acquire gear - a whole new treadmill
    • breaks the pace whenever you have to do any of the above
    Those are things that you don't have to do when you don't have item decay. Everything in that list is uninteresting. You'd be introducing a whole bag of new inconveniences and a whole lot of grind to a lot of players. Sounds like a bad deal to them. Why should they support item decay in a game?

     So the game has to keep you constantly high?  That's how I am reading where you are coming from.

  • GhernGhern Shingle Springs, CAPosts: 134Member Uncommon

    Item decay is great.

    For the folks that really enjoy the crafting aspect of MMO's it keeps them engaged.

    It is fantastic for a true player driven economy.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,610Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7.

    Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good  player driven economy.

    And yet it is a major inconvenience to those who are uninterested in crafting and economy - and they are a majority among gamers. The net sum is negative. Find another way to drive economy.

    They are not forced in anyway to craft anything they can hack mobs left and right how much they like so i fail to see your point.

    Just think your proposition through for once! Item decay brings along with it...

    • maintaining gear - if not self then relying on someone else
    • keeping spares - if not in inventory then somewhere relatively close by -> moving becomes a hassle
    • re-acquiring gear or acquiring wealth to re-acquire gear - a whole new treadmill
    • breaks the pace whenever you have to do any of the above
    Those are things that you don't have to do when you don't have item decay. Everything in that list is uninteresting. You'd be introducing a whole bag of new inconveniences and a whole lot of grind to a lot of players. Sounds like a bad deal to them. Why should they support item decay in a game?

    I agree. We see many ideas in this forum about what could be done to make MMORPGs better. There seems to be a crowd who participate here who equate maximizing interesting gameplay with dumbing them down. That is just plain silly.

     

    Item decay is one of those ideas that leads to less enjoyment for the vast majority of players. The only ones who would benefit are those who craft above all else by creating an artificial dependency on their services.

  • Cypt1Cypt1 Melbourne, FLPosts: 284Member
    As someon else said, guessing the OP never played SWG pre-CU. A pity. I devoted more than just a few hours to crafting some items, and I never thought it was a waste of time, heh.
  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    This might come as a surpirse for you OP but some people love to craft and build their own houses in a game, not everyone likes killing mobs 24/7.

    Item decay is a must to have good ground for a good  player driven economy.

    And yet it is a major inconvenience to those who are uninterested in crafting and economy - and they are a majority among gamers. The net sum is negative. Find another way to drive economy.

    They are not forced in anyway to craft anything they can hack mobs left and right how much they like so i fail to see your point.

    Just think your proposition through for once! Item decay brings along with it...

    • maintaining gear - if not self then relying on someone else
    • keeping spares - if not in inventory then somewhere relatively close by -> moving becomes a hassle
    • re-acquiring gear or acquiring wealth to re-acquire gear - a whole new treadmill
    • breaks the pace whenever you have to do any of the above
    Those are things that you don't have to do when you don't have item decay. Everything in that list is uninteresting. You'd be introducing a whole bag of new inconveniences and a whole lot of grind to a lot of players. Sounds like a bad deal to them. Why should they support item decay in a game?

    Because without it, they'll simply do what they have always done: blow through content in a month, quit, and come here and complain how pathetic end games are.

    __________________________
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    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,610Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cypt1
    As someon else said, guessing the OP never played SWG pre-CU. A pity. I devoted more than just a few hours to crafting some items, and I never thought it was a waste of time, heh.

    He may be one of the cool kids who knows what "pre-CU SWG" means...or not. It makes no difference.

     

    Dedicated crafters don't like to hear it but crafting and economic market simulations are not core MMORPG gameplay activities. I know many find it enjoyable and good for them. But there's a problem when you start to mess with people's enjoyment of actual core adventuring gameplay to create a bigger market for fishing, cooking, alchemy, leatherworking, etc. The fact that you can craft it yourself is also irelevant since many, myself included, prefer to not craft at all or give you crafters my gold.

     

    Item decay adds extra complexity, but not of the enjoyable type. It just creates more dreary overhead to have to deal witjh.

  • mastersam21mastersam21 Long Beach, CAPosts: 43Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Cypt1
    As someon else said, guessing the OP never played SWG pre-CU. A pity. I devoted more than just a few hours to crafting some items, and I never thought it was a waste of time, heh.

    He may be one of the cool kids who knows what "pre-CU SWG" means...or not. It makes no difference.

     

    Dedicated crafters don't like to hear it but crafting and economic market simulations are not core MMORPG gameplay activities. I know many find it enjoyable and good for them. But there's a problem when you start to mess with people's enjoyment of actual core adventuring gameplay to create a bigger market for fishing, cooking, alchemy, leatherworking, etc. The fact that you can craft it yourself is also irelevant since many, myself included, prefer to not craft at all or give you crafters my gold.

     

    Item decay adds extra complexity, but not of the enjoyable type. It just creates more dreary overhead to have to deal witjh.

    I dont agree with this post at all. What is this core crafting, core adventuring? When I step into a MMORPG its a package deal, you deal with the good and bad. While i agree crafting and trading isnt played by the majority doesnt mean it isnt liked. I believe the new generation of MMO gamers simply hasnt giving it a chance, but at some point they well crave a deeper experience from their games because I remember my first MMORPG all i wanted to do was kill shit, crafting and trading was an afterthought. At the same time a lot of dev/publishers are catering to te lowest common denominator and cashing in bigger for it so we may never see that AAA tittle with sort of gameplay.

     

    MMORPG should be an art from their makers instead today visions  are altered because of the bigger potential payoff as well the players screaming for things to become easier. Its like asking a famous artist to change his painting so its more likely to sell.

     

     

     

     

    image

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Cypt1
    As someon else said, guessing the OP never played SWG pre-CU. A pity. I devoted more than just a few hours to crafting some items, and I never thought it was a waste of time, heh.

    He may be one of the cool kids who knows what "pre-CU SWG" means...or not. It makes no difference.

    Dedicated crafters don't like to hear it but crafting and economic market simulations are not core MMORPG gameplay activities. I know many find it enjoyable and good for them. But there's a problem when you start to mess with people's enjoyment of actual core adventuring gameplay to create a bigger market for fishing, cooking, alchemy, leatherworking, etc. The fact that you can craft it yourself is also irelevant since many, myself included, prefer to not craft at all or give you crafters my gold.

    Item decay adds extra complexity, but not of the enjoyable type. It just creates more dreary overhead to have to deal witjh.

    You are paying for the entire game, not an individual piece of the game (like combat). Don't like crafting? Don't buy a game with crafting as a focal point. I don't like spaceships. I'm not going to buy EVE and then tell everyone spaceships are stupid.

    With that said... crafting shouldn't exist if it is going to be half-assed in a game and has no point. I'd rather have a good crafting system with an interesting economy or nothing at all (and have everything be looted and for devs to spend time making other systems better). All these mini-side-game-crafting-MMOs needs to go away forever.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • shingoukiehshingoukieh Fayetteville, NCPosts: 125Member
    Eve works because the cost of ships arent that crippling. if you lose a ship u can replace it faster than say if u been raiding for weeks and lose it in a matter of minutes.
  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,916Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adamantine
     

     However, if you introduce stuff like item decay into your game, it doesnt mean that crafting is important in your game. It means crafting is a hassle. It means crafting just HAS to be done, all the time, again and again, and is thus a timewaster.

     

    Games are time wasters.  Entertaining time wasting is called gameplay.

     

    One person's work is another person's fun.   Seriously.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,659Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Just think your proposition through for once! Item decay brings along with it...

    • maintaining gear - if not self then relying on someone else
    • keeping spares - if not in inventory then somewhere relatively close by -> moving becomes a hassle
    • re-acquiring gear or acquiring wealth to re-acquire gear - a whole new treadmill
    • breaks the pace whenever you have to do any of the above
    Those are things that you don't have to do when you don't have item decay. Everything in that list is uninteresting. You'd be introducing a whole bag of new inconveniences and a whole lot of grind to a lot of players. Sounds like a bad deal to them. Why should they support item decay in a game?

    Have you played UO?

    To address your points:

    • It cost next to nothing to maintain gear in UO. Often it made sense to just refine it, toss the scraps in the crafter bin and grab another piece.
    • In UO, you've got plenty of storage space and getting to your gear is fast an easy, often a click of a button takes you right to it.
    • In UO, you have more gear than you know what to do with. You'd be hard pressed to find a UOer (and there's over 15 years of them) that will tell you gathering gear was a 'treadmill"
    • Breaks the pace any more than any other penalty?

     

    If you think in terms of WoW, yes, your points are very valid. Not every game is designed like WoW, though.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon
    UO and SWG had awesome player economies and it was all because of item decay. I would much rather have item decay than mudflation and soulbound items.

    How to post links.

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  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nilden
    UO and SWG had awesome player economies and it was all because of item decay. I would much rather have item decay than mudflation and soulbound items.

    Lineage had an awesome player economy too and it didn't have item decay.  Item decay is a punishment system.  I would rather see an incentive system rather than a punishment system to remove game resources.  It's not very fun.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,940Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by nilden
    UO and SWG had awesome player economies and it was all because of item decay. I would much rather have item decay than mudflation and soulbound items.

    Lineage had an awesome player economy too and it didn't have item decay.  Item decay is a punishment system.  I would rather see an incentive system rather than a punishment system to remove game resources.  It's not very fun.

     

    Incentives can only go so far. Are you going to continually increase new recipes/schematics to make the old ones obsolete? That's not much help. Neither is soulbinding/biolinking items. Item decay may not be perfect, but it beats all the alternatives in a game with heavy crafting. Everyone who played SWG saw what happened when item decay was removed: items went up by at least 10X in price, because you only ever needed to buy that item once. In Eve, you have item LOSS, which is a more direct form of decay. And in SWG there were things to mitigate item decay: insurance terminals reduced wear associated with deaths, and weapons/armor could be repaired multiple times, on a reducing basis, so it was not like an item would wear down and be instantly useless.
    We know that item decay "worked" in SWG, because when it went away, we saw the utter devastation in the player economy, player interdependence, the crafting game, the whole of SWG itself.
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