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Destructive criticism the cancer of gaming forums

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  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,912Member Uncommon

    Irony:  Destructive criticism in a thread about avoiding destructive criticism.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • SafoSafo Marina, CAPosts: 46Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    I don't think the problem in these forums is too much "destructive criticism", it's more a case of huge doses of general negativity.

     

    The obvious "this game sucks" posts are far outnumbered by relatively fleshed-out posts which are simply hugely critical. No game escapes this flood of negativity. If it's a themepark, there'll be countless posts about how boringly linear it is, how it's just a clone of game x, how it lacks any signs of originality, etc. If it's a vaguely sandboxy game, it will be torn to shreds because it has no content, is a time sink, etc.

     

    Let's face it, there's very little "truth" or "lies" involved in these discussions. It's 99.9% opinion and perception, and there lies the problem.

     

    If I think a game is boring as hell, and I post my opinion, there'll be many people that strongly disagree with me, because they actually love that game. In their eyes, I "lied" when I said it was the most boring thing since Pong. Similarly, if I'm really enjoying a game and post about it here, there'll be countless replies that feel compelled to point out all the failings of the game in question, and how nobody with more than 2 braincells could possibly find THAT game enjoyable...

     

    Maybe the pervasive negativity is because most people that are spending a lot of time in these forums don't currently have a game they are enjoying. So they have a lot of "forum time" on their hands, and they're just grumpy and mean...

    haha yea seems that way and i understand i guess.. for me i like all sorts of games and like talking about games I like.. i never saw the point in dwelling on things I dislike because well i dislike it.. why would i want to bring that up all the time? there are so many games out there if you can't find anything you enjoy it may be time for a new hobby or just a break from gaming for awhile.. i dunno maybe i'm in the minority on this

     

    This is pretty much me. If I don't like a game no need to talk about it. Tbh I'd rather talk about games I do like.

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Drolkin
    The OP's post would've been better if it was shortened by a lot.    

    the OP is just my copy and paste of an article aside from the first paragraph

    I think that was ironic sarcasm on his part.

     

     

    She was the op wasn't she?
  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Irony:  Destructive criticism in a thread about avoiding destructive criticism.

     

    Shut up 

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,912Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Irony:  Destructive criticism in a thread about avoiding destructive criticism.

    Shut up 

    I get that all the time. image


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Irony:  Destructive criticism in a thread about avoiding destructive criticism.

    Shut up 

    I get that all the time. image

    sorry that was meant to be more jocular than- well it was just plain rude, sorry.   If you had heard me say it it would have ben like shut up you twat!, you knobber.  You know kind of haha, I am seriously messing now, it was a joke.  

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,912Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Irony:  Destructive criticism in a thread about avoiding destructive criticism.

    Shut up 

    I get that all the time. image

    sorry that was meant to be more jocular than- well it was just plain rude, sorry.  

    NP.  I took it as dry humor, like the British stuff on TV.  Quite well timed on your part, and did sort of help drive the point.  These people love to argue about anything.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Irony:  Destructive criticism in a thread about avoiding destructive criticism.

    Shut up 

    I get that all the time. image

    sorry that was meant to be more jocular than- well it was just plain rude, sorry.  

    NP.

    read the edit mate, haha sorry.  

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jerek_
    Originally posted by niceguy3978
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
     

    Are we going to ban effusive praise as well?  All praise and no criticism doesn't really help make a better product either.  We are coming dangerously close to just banning forums altogether.

     I find the effusive praise to be worse than the trolls.  They are trying to support something they enjoy so it's tempting to try and engage them about their games, but it is just as pointless as feeding a troll.  When you are actively trying to see things in a postive or negative way, you can't see the whole truth of things.  Seeing only the good is a straight line to mediocrity.

    obviously just saying a game is perfect! doesn't do any more good than game is shit! as they both are baiting in a way.. just overall the overwhelming negativity i see here and on every games forums is frustrating sometimes. 

    The problem is that so many of these arguments quickly devolve into binary extremes -- the game is either "absolute perfection" or "complete and utter trash" -- no room for in-between at all once things get into that mode, and extremes are where reasonable debate and discussion have a tough time.  Notice how many user reviews on Metacritic are 0 and how many are 10?  Then count the number of reviews that are 2-9 -- not so many.

     

    I think it has less to do with always prefacing things with "imo" but more to do with looking at a game in pieces and parts rather than a complete whole.  I think you can criticize aspects of the game, preferrably with some personal reasons why you didn't like it, but you can also praise things that are good without degrading your summary argument.  If there are more minuses than pluses, the game gets a thumbs down in your opinion, and that's fair.

     

    I think the flame wars start up when an extreme positive/negative position is put down without any backup , when a positive/negative opinion is put down as irrefutable "fact" when it really is open for debate, or  when the crticism/praise is so extreme that someone is bound to come along and trash it.  If you can articulate why you liked/didn't like a feature, and make it clear that it was your experience, I don't think anyone can say you are being a fanboy/troll.

     

    But if you come in stating something as if it were divine truth (positive or negative), and that you are speaking for everyone, that is when you are drifting into fanboy/troll territory.  Rule of thumb: speak for yourself, and back up what you say.

     

    Good thread Aerowyn!  :)

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Safo
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    I don't think the problem in these forums is too much "destructive criticism", it's more a case of huge doses of general negativity.

     

    The obvious "this game sucks" posts are far outnumbered by relatively fleshed-out posts which are simply hugely critical. No game escapes this flood of negativity. If it's a themepark, there'll be countless posts about how boringly linear it is, how it's just a clone of game x, how it lacks any signs of originality, etc. If it's a vaguely sandboxy game, it will be torn to shreds because it has no content, is a time sink, etc.

     

    Let's face it, there's very little "truth" or "lies" involved in these discussions. It's 99.9% opinion and perception, and there lies the problem.

     

    If I think a game is boring as hell, and I post my opinion, there'll be many people that strongly disagree with me, because they actually love that game. In their eyes, I "lied" when I said it was the most boring thing since Pong. Similarly, if I'm really enjoying a game and post about it here, there'll be countless replies that feel compelled to point out all the failings of the game in question, and how nobody with more than 2 braincells could possibly find THAT game enjoyable...

     

    Maybe the pervasive negativity is because most people that are spending a lot of time in these forums don't currently have a game they are enjoying. So they have a lot of "forum time" on their hands, and they're just grumpy and mean...

    haha yea seems that way and i understand i guess.. for me i like all sorts of games and like talking about games I like.. i never saw the point in dwelling on things I dislike because well i dislike it.. why would i want to bring that up all the time? there are so many games out there if you can't find anything you enjoy it may be time for a new hobby or just a break from gaming for awhile.. i dunno maybe i'm in the minority on this

     

    This is pretty much me. If I don't like a game no need to talk about it. Tbh I'd rather talk about games I do like.

    Same here!

     

    I have commented in other game forums but only to the degree that I try to use that as fuel for the hypocrysy most destructive criticisms showcase.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Funny, whoever wrote it has next to no idea why trolls even exist, so I don't know if I trust his opinion on "destructive criticism".

     

    Calling people who have different opinions than you a petulant toddler, whether it is constructive or destructive criticism, just seems like the author of the article itself is flame-baiting and trolling.

     

    type of criticism has nothing to do with differing in opinions its how the criticism is worded

    But you have some people on here who would argue semantics may differ but the point is the same and others who would say your point is crap.  Do I just dismiss the latter?  Yes, yes I do.  

     

    I argue my point but unless someone is straight up lying I do not dismiss someone's opinion if it differs from mine.. Problem is most arguments I see is game x is pure crap or feature of game x is garbage.. How's that constructive or in anyway helpful to any conversation

    That's actually not how you've been treating my posts about their economy in GW2 for example. The experiences of thousands of players their posted (and deleted) screenshots their posted (and ignored) videos on youtube they recorded themselves to illustrate how 1 person can get everything in a single 30 minute run and other people are getting crap and they're not doing a single thing about it was all but poo pooed by you and others on here as if I was lying. I wanted to love GW2 but what they did in Nov to loot and have continued to ignore for 5 months now has been nothing less then neglegant. When I report those things on these forums the last thing I'd expect is someone to attack my post as if I was lying when there is plenty of evidence to the support what I and others like me experience everyday in that game since Nov. The devs themselves are accusing the community of players of lying about their experiences we don't need other players doing it too.

    you keep repeating the same thing over and over and over.. you made your point but by now it's to the point of trolling imho.. also your issues I have not experience nor heard anyone else on here or in game complain about said issues.. so not sure who these thousands of players are but i have not come across them yet. Again obviously not everyone has the same experiences as you or I but overall I have not  found anyone to have had the same issues(or if they have they have not found them to be game breaking or a huge issue in anyway since they haven't mentioned them)

    I have also asked you to elaborate on how ascended gear in anyway effects most players in the game in anyway or has effected the game overall as I have not seen it.. ascended gear is needed for less than 1% of the entire games content to accomplish

    There's this

    and this

    this

    this

    this

    this

    oh yeah and this

    How can you claim to NOT know about the loot issues in this game or have heard about it at all? or DR for that matter? It only began in November of last year prior to the 15fh and DR was announced while the loot nerfs were stealth. It's had more and more attention as this whatever it is affects more and more players.How can you not know about that. As you see above there are plenty of reports on this very phenomenon and I'd like to point out, they posted yet another brush off of the community by promising they were "gathering all the data together" well they've been gathering all the data together for five months now, it's either deliberate or even their data collection software has serious bugs in it.

    The reason I repeat myself on this website especially isn't because I don't think you are listening, it's due to the blind people who still play the game and defend it with cognitive dissonance, I'm warning people before they play because they have had 5 months of time to fix the problem and what did they do with that time? Tell us they are gathering data.

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Irony:  Destructive criticism in a thread about avoiding destructive criticism.

    Shut up 

    I get that all the time. image

    sorry that was meant to be more jocular than- well it was just plain rude, sorry.  

    NP.  I took it as dry humor, like the British stuff on TV.  Quite well timed on your part, and did sort of help drive the point.  These people love to argue about anything.

    btw, as you said I was making myself laught, that is not ok but bloody hilarious, apologious

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Funny, whoever wrote it has next to no idea why trolls even exist, so I don't know if I trust his opinion on "destructive criticism".

     

    Calling people who have different opinions than you a petulant toddler, whether it is constructive or destructive criticism, just seems like the author of the article itself is flame-baiting and trolling.

     

    type of criticism has nothing to do with differing in opinions its how the criticism is worded

    But you have some people on here who would argue semantics may differ but the point is the same and others who would say your point is crap.  Do I just dismiss the latter?  Yes, yes I do.  

     

    I argue my point but unless someone is straight up lying I do not dismiss someone's opinion if it differs from mine.. Problem is most arguments I see is game x is pure crap or feature of game x is garbage.. How's that constructive or in anyway helpful to any conversation

    That's actually not how you've been treating my posts about their economy in GW2 for example. The experiences of thousands of players their posted (and deleted) screenshots their posted (and ignored) videos on youtube they recorded themselves to illustrate how 1 person can get everything in a single 30 minute run and other people are getting crap and they're not doing a single thing about it was all but poo pooed by you and others on here as if I was lying. I wanted to love GW2 but what they did in Nov to loot and have continued to ignore for 5 months now has been nothing less then neglegant. When I report those things on these forums the last thing I'd expect is someone to attack my post as if I was lying when there is plenty of evidence to the support what I and others like me experience everyday in that game since Nov. The devs themselves are accusing the community of players of lying about their experiences we don't need other players doing it too.

    you keep repeating the same thing over and over and over.. you made your point but by now it's to the point of trolling imho.. also your issues I have not experience nor heard anyone else on here or in game complain about said issues.. so not sure who these thousands of players are but i have not come across them yet. Again obviously not everyone has the same experiences as you or I but overall I have not  found anyone to have had the same issues(or if they have they have not found them to be game breaking or a huge issue in anyway since they haven't mentioned them)

    I have also asked you to elaborate on how ascended gear in anyway effects most players in the game in anyway or has effected the game overall as I have not seen it.. ascended gear is needed for less than 1% of the entire games content to accomplish

    There's this

    and this

    this

    this

    this

    this

    oh yeah and this

    How can you claim to NOT know about the loot issues in this game or have heard about it at all? or DR for that matter? It only began in November of last year prior to the 15fh and DR was announced while the loot nerfs were stealth. It's had more and more attention as this whatever it is affects more and more players.How can you not know about that. As you see above there are plenty of reports on this very phenomenon and I'd like to point out, they posted yet another brush off of the community by promising they were "gathering all the data together" well they've been gathering all the data together for five months now, it's either deliberate or even their data collection software has serious bugs in it.

    The reason I repeat myself on this website especially isn't because I don't think you are listening, it's due to the blind people who still play the game and defend it with cognitive dissonance, I'm warning people before they play because they have had 5 months of time to fix the problem and what did they do with that time? Tell us they are gathering data.

    life is a bitch

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,912Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ortwig
     

    The problem is that so many of these arguments quickly devolve into binary extremes -- the game is either "absolute perfection" or "complete and utter trash" -- no room for in-between at all once things get into that mode, and extremes are where reasonable debate and discussion have a tough time.

     

    Fanboys (wanna-be marketers) and Haters (wanna-be disinformation spreaders) both have an agenda so of course there is no middle ground for them.  The two groups easily make up over half of the regular forum posters.

     

    For example, look at how many sane and balanced forum posts go unnoticed.  These two groups are not here to share and learn.  This is propaganda city!

     

    Or maybe forum PVP city?  I can't tell the two apart.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    This thread still going?

    Destructive criticism is a myth. Nonsense, perpetuated by people who have an unhealthy affection to something which prevents them from listening to criticism without getting upset.

    Criticism is good, it is the most effective way of improving something.

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Yamota

    This thread still going?

    Destructive criticism is a myth. Nonsense, perpetuated by people who have an unhealthy affection to something which prevents them from listening to criticism without getting upset.

    Criticism is good, it is the most effective way of improving something.

    Are you sure you do not belong in that category?

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Yamota

    This thread still going?

    Destructive criticism is a myth. Nonsense, perpetuated by people who have an unhealthy affection to something which prevents them from listening to criticism without getting upset.

    Criticism is good, it is the most effective way of improving something.

    Are you sure you do not belong in that category?

    Which cathegory are you talking about exactly?

    What do I have an unhealthy affection too? I never get too attached to games because they are just entertainment media, no more and no less. That also makes me not stop from criticize it if I see a flaw in it, why would I?

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota

    This thread still going?

    Destructive criticism is a myth. Nonsense, perpetuated by people who have an unhealthy affection to something which prevents them from listening to criticism without getting upset.

    Criticism is good, it is the most effective way of improving something.

    Especially when you are always right and your criticisms are irrefutable fact.  Hubris is great, ain't it?   ;)

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Yamota

    This thread still going?

    Destructive criticism is a myth. Nonsense, perpetuated by people who have an unhealthy affection to something which prevents them from listening to criticism without getting upset.

    Criticism is good, it is the most effective way of improving something.

    Are you sure you do not belong in that category?

    Which cathegory are you talking about exactly?

    What do I have an unhealthy affection too? I never get too attached to games because they are just entertainment media, no more and no less. That also makes me not stop from criticize it if I see a flaw in it, why would I?

    Just messing mate, say hi to your dvd player.  haha seriously just messing.  

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Yamota

    This thread still going?

    Destructive criticism is a myth. Nonsense, perpetuated by people who have an unhealthy affection to something which prevents them from listening to criticism without getting upset.

    Criticism is good, it is the most effective way of improving something.

    Especially when your are always right and your criticisms are irrefutable fact.  Hubris is a great thing, ain't it?   ;)

    Never said that. Strawman and/or presumptious argument.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Yamota

    This thread still going?

    Destructive criticism is a myth. Nonsense, perpetuated by people who have an unhealthy affection to something which prevents them from listening to criticism without getting upset.

    Criticism is good, it is the most effective way of improving something.

    Are you sure you do not belong in that category?

    Which cathegory are you talking about exactly?

    What do I have an unhealthy affection too? I never get too attached to games because they are just entertainment media, no more and no less. That also makes me not stop from criticize it if I see a flaw in it, why would I?

    Just messing mate, say hi to your dvd player.  haha seriously just messing.  

    mm I need a drink. image

  • VarossVaross Nortonville, KYPosts: 462Moderator Uncommon
    Locking this thread, the Pub is for discussion of MMO's, not other poster's posting behavior.
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