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Should GW2 have kept more traditional mmo mechanics?

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  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

    Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

    image

    But, everything is defined anyway.  In GW2 everything is defined, do you think it is not?  Genuinely?  We are playing games... games... things you mess about on in your spare time that are programmed to react in certain ways to your inputs... games.  Am I missing something? 

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

    Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

    image

    more diversity the better imho.. why do people want to play the same old same old? I myself get bored fast and if something doesn't feel somewhat new or fresh i tend to stop playing.. for example games like TL2 and PoE feel to much same old for me and i lost interest after a few hours.. this genre needs developers to take more chances and not try to stick with what worked in the past just because it was popular and sold well..

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

    Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

    image

    more diversity the better imho.. why do people want to play the same old same old? I myself get bored fast and if something doesn't feel somewhat new or fresh i tend to stop playing.. for example games like TL2 and PoE feel to much same old for me and i lost interest after a few hours.. this genre needs developers to take more chances and not try to stick with what worked in the past just because it was popular and sold well..

    Well this I agree with.  I want to see development, I want to see new ways of playing.  When I consider, for example, what was that game where you created holes in walls and turned onto the ceiling etc?  Nevermind, GW2 for me was a small devolution, nothing spectacular, just a small change.  

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

    Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

    image

    more diversity the better imho.. why do people want to play the same old same old? I myself get bored fast and if something doesn't feel somewhat new or fresh i tend to stop playing.. for example games like TL2 and PoE feel to much same old for me and i lost interest after a few hours.. this genre needs developers to take more chances and not try to stick with what worked in the past just because it was popular and sold well..

    Well this I agree with.  I want to see development, I want to see new ways of playing.  When I consider, for example, what was that game where you created holes in walls and turned onto the ceiling etc?  Nevermind, GW2 for me was a small devolution, nothing spectacular, just a small change.  

    its all perspective on what you look for in a game.. for example my buddy doesn't care about context in quests about npcs moving around or anything like that. So when he played gw2 he didn't see the big deal in that aspect. For me static feeling worlds is one of the biggest and first things I catch onto in a MMO. This one reason brings GW2 a HUGE step above and beyond most other MMOs for me.. for you it could just be a meh thing and nothing you notice or care about.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • ShrillyShrilly Citra, FLPosts: 380Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Shrilly
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Shrilly
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    You mean, make it just like another WoW clone like all those we got served these last 8 years?

    Sorry, but no thanks.

    And for those who can't live without those "traditional MMO mechanics", which are inreality "EQ/WoW clone mechanics", they have the vast majority of games to chose from! Leave GW2 alone for those who enjoy having a different games, a thing that didn't happen for mainstream MMOs (not talking about bug ridden crap made by amateurs like Darkfall and co) since a long time.

    AMEN SIR AMEN!!! when i read this post i looked JUST LIKE YOUR AVATAR!!! LMFAO

    Try readin it again then.  I genuinely believe that neither of you understand that criticism (that you may or may not agree with) is perfectly valid.  If you genuinely believe that your POV is the only correct opinion please do not bother me or this thread with it.  

    You asked for said criticism so take it with a pinch of salt if you wanted your opinion to be the only one you shoulda said WHO ELSE THINKS THE WAY I DO....

    I didn't but expected some objectivity.  I see that you have tried to 'turn heads', but do not see the validity of it.  

    I see it as a totally valid point something new everything else has turned WoW clone and has a trinity its good to see people trying a new system. Whats an opinion without reasoning?

  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,930Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

    Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

    image

    But, everything is defined anyway.  In GW2 everything is defined, do you think it is not?  Genuinely?  We are playing games... games... things you mess about on in your spare time that are programmed to react in certain ways to your inputs... games.  Am I missing something? 

    Definition as in, clearly defined roles, clearly defined objectives, defined ways of playing said game. GW2 has some defined gameplay, but it's not nearly as structured as other mmos. WoW is the usual example, so I will use that as well.

    In GW2, if I choose to, I can level from 1-80 all in Queensdale (Human 1-15 zone). I miss out on the rest of the world, and higher level crafting mats, etc. But I can choose to level that way for the entire game, which makes how you level less defined.

    In WoW, you have to move out of a zone once you out level it, because you stop earning meaningful xps. I cannot stay in the Barrens and expect to get to level 90. Heck, Blizzard went as far as to penalize xp gains for certain level ranges if you tried to stay in certain areas (i.e. keeping in Cataclysm areas to try to level past 85).

    In GW2, my Guardian can be more tanky, be more of a dpser, can be a support role, or I can build a balanced character and perform all actions to a lesser degree.

    In WoW, you are a Tank, DPS or Healer. Not even all classes have all roles. You can't even play as a reliable alternative role in a spec not designed for that role. It is clearly....and purposefully defined.

    In GW2, once I hit level 80 my style of play doesn't really have to change. I can keep on doing the same things I have done the previous 79 levels. I can obtain the gear I want through farming karma, fractals, crafting, AH, etc.

    In WoW, endgame CLEARLY starts at level 90. You cannot do ENDGAME raiding before that point. Heck, the first 89 levels of the game are all completed solo, unless you do dungeons or pvp, and at endgame the only PvE progression system is raiding, which is the opposite of anything that came into the game before. Ironically, the leveling portion and the endgame portion are like two entirely different games. You can't even craft a full set of endgame level gear.

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Shrilly
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Shrilly
    Originally posted by MightyChasm
    Originally posted by Shrilly
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    You mean, make it just like another WoW clone like all those we got served these last 8 years?

    Sorry, but no thanks.

    And for those who can't live without those "traditional MMO mechanics", which are inreality "EQ/WoW clone mechanics", they have the vast majority of games to chose from! Leave GW2 alone for those who enjoy having a different games, a thing that didn't happen for mainstream MMOs (not talking about bug ridden crap made by amateurs like Darkfall and co) since a long time.

    AMEN SIR AMEN!!! when i read this post i looked JUST LIKE YOUR AVATAR!!! LMFAO

    Try readin it again then.  I genuinely believe that neither of you understand that criticism (that you may or may not agree with) is perfectly valid.  If you genuinely believe that your POV is the only correct opinion please do not bother me or this thread with it.  

    You asked for said criticism so take it with a pinch of salt if you wanted your opinion to be the only one you shoulda said WHO ELSE THINKS THE WAY I DO....

    I didn't but expected some objectivity.  I see that you have tried to 'turn heads', but do not see the validity of it.  

    I see it as a totally valid point something new everything else has turned WoW clone and has a trinity its good to see people trying a new system. Whats an opinion without reasoning?

    Well that was just an opinion without an agenda.  So fair play.  

  • VorchVorch Somewhere, FLPosts: 800Member

    You are dying entirely too much. I would recommend learning the basics a bit. Study the encounter, learn the encounter, master the encounter.

    -----

    Secondly, you are saying that the combat is both very simple and very complex, and that both problems would be fixed if it just used the trinity or at least defined roles. I would disagree. The system is simple enough to understand, but much more difficult to master.

    For instance, you can make it through the majority of open world content from 1-60 simply by burning through your cooldowns on most classes. Eles and thieves may find that a bit harder to get away with, but it's doable.

    However, dungeon content is designed as content that cannot be simply conquered by pressing random numbers. Knowing what Definance is, knowing what Stun Breakers are, knowing how to rid yourself of conditions, and knowing how to ressurect teammates SAFELY are extremely important. Understanding combo fields and the effects they create, knowing your finishers, and knowing the boss mechanics are also essential.

    -----

    This is basically why it is PAINFUL to try and run a dungeon with some groups that don't seem to understand the intricasies of combat. In my experience, these are also the same groups that skip content that is profitable (i.e. kholer and troll in Ascalonian Catacombs). It is also why it is AMAZING to play with a group that knows what they are doing.

    -----

    Keep in mind, there are people who think dungeon content is too EASY, atm. They want a hardmode. Also, bear in mind that dungeons have been toned down compared to what they were pre-launch so that people could understand them.

     

    TL;DR: The combat is easy to learn and difficult to master...some people actually want instances with higher difficulties.

     

    Here are a few wiki articles I think will help you A LOT

    Combat: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combat

    Stun (and stun break): http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun

    Unshakable: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unshakable

    Defiant: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiant

    Combos: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combos

     

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    I'm not sure about problem here, but sometime I miss my monk (hero=XD)

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member

    wow lots of long reads int this thread, ill go aherad and throw my two cents in which is about all its worth anyway :p

     

    NO, although i no longer play guild wars its not due to the break from standard MMOmechanics, to be honest i fill GW2 is a step in a better direction for MMOs in alot of ways.

    but on the other hand it suffer from NCsoft bussness style in alot of ways, the game suffers from lots of bugs and imbalence, but that is not a priority with NCsoft since you already paid for the game, they would rather focus on the cash shop to get you to give them more money then fixing the game as it is.

     

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Squeak69

    wow lots of long reads int this thread, ill go aherad and throw my two cents in which is about all its worth anyway :p

     

    NO, although i no longer play guild wars its not due to the break from standard MMOmechanics, to be honest i fill GW2 is a step in a better direction for MMOs in alot of ways.

    but on the other hand it suffer from NCsoft bussness style in alot of ways, the game suffers from lots of bugs and imbalence, but that is not a priority with NCsoft since you already paid for the game, they would rather focus on the cash shop to get you to give them more money then fixing the game as it is.

     

    haha mate, there is a reason I did not put a poll in this, it is not a yes or no answer.  Unfortunately a lot of grief has been received from fans, most of which was a diatribe off topic.  But it was intended as a discussion.  Well, never mind, maybe we will get a reasonable response.  

  • ShrillyShrilly Citra, FLPosts: 380Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

    Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

    image

    too true

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Shrilly
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    Threads like these shows me how much the community as a whole doesn't truly want anything that's different. People are comfortable with their defined roles and defined quest hubs, and defined end game, defined everything. The community has spent so much time allowing game developers telling them what to like, that they've actually come to believe it.

    Too bad there isn't a rep system or at least an applaud emoticon, because I'd use both for that part of your post alone, not to mention the rest of the post which is excellent too.

    image

    too true

    tbh I do not know if you are taking the piss or not

     

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    not imo.  i no longer play because they didn't stray far enough from "traditional mmo mechanics."   

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    BIG NO!!

    image


    image

  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAPosts: 1,082Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Loktofeit 

    I like new choices and different approaches to gameplay. specifically, I enjoy GW2's departure from the mainstream EQ/WOW approach. If you want something more traditional, definitely check out the dozens of MMOs that travel that path.

    Yeah, that also amazes me. People complain for 8 years that every game is based on WoW/EQ's model, and when a mainstream company produces a quality game which is not using that model, they complain that it's not using the model.

    If that's not /facepalm material, they I don't know what it is...

     

    Yeah it never ends! If it's new it's not old school enough!

    image

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by StoneRoses
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Loktofeit 

    I like new choices and different approaches to gameplay. specifically, I enjoy GW2's departure from the mainstream EQ/WOW approach. If you want something more traditional, definitely check out the dozens of MMOs that travel that path.

    Yeah, that also amazes me. People complain for 8 years that every game is based on WoW/EQ's model, and when a mainstream company produces a quality game which is not using that model, they complain that it's not using the model.

    If that's not /facepalm material, they I don't know what it is...

     

    Yeah it never ends! If it's new it's not old school enough!

    we want things like they were!! we want things new and fresh!! we want this! no we want that!! no wonder games turn out like they do no one can agree on crap

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Riverside, RIPosts: 3,266Member Uncommon
    They could have kept traditional roles and did everything else the way they did and it would have been an amazing game. They went overboard with the reinvention IMO. There's a reason that roles have played a part in RPGs since the 1970's.

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
    ESO, FE, FFXI, FFXIV, FF, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MO, MxO, NW, Rift, RoE,
    Ryzom, SB, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    I think GW2 does some really nice things and the 'trinity' mechanic is something new as well.

    However, ANet really can't design a good tutorial that explains their game (which to their credit they admit) and that is what is causing a large pain-point within the playerbase.

    It isn't that the mechanic is objectively good / bad, its that ANet can't explain their new mechanic so people think it is bad.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    I think GW2 does some really nice things and the 'trinity' mechanic is something new as well.

    However, ANet really can't design a good tutorial that explains their game (which to their credit they admit) and that is what is causing a large pain-point within the playerbase.

    It isn't that the mechanic is objectively good / bad, its that ANet can't explain their new mechanic so people think it is bad.

    that's what youtube is for:) anything you want to know with videos and all

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
     

    that's what youtube is for:) anything you want to know with videos and all

    When you roll a new char, does it say what that char does?

    Does it say 'this char does damage in this way, healing in this way'? Which profession has an AOE heal?

    Do we have to watch some video tutorial on Youtube (I can accept if it is on ANet's site, not ideal since it should be in the game but w/e) for an hour to know what the heck this profession called 'Engineer' does?

    I'm asking for some basic, what is this class about and the game itself does absolutely nothing to tell that to the player.

    If Diablo3 / League of Legends does a better job at explaining their class, you have a problem.

     

    This lack of anything for new players is what is creating this perception that this new thing ANet has done is 'bad'.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
     

    that's what youtube is for:) anything you want to know with videos and all

    When you roll a new char, does it say what that char does?

    Does it say 'this char does damage in this way, healing in this way'? Which profession has an AOE heal?

    Do we have to watch some video tutorial on Youtube (I can accept if it is on ANet's site, not ideal since it should be in the game but w/e) for an hour to know what the heck this profession called 'Engineer' does?

    I'm asking for some basic, what is this class about and the game itself does absolutely nothing to tell that to the player.

    If Diablo3 / League of Legends does a better job at explaining their class, you have a problem.

     

    This lack of anything for new players is what is creating this perception that this new thing ANet has done is 'bad'.

    i figured it all out on my own.. wasn't hard and I'm no "hardcore" player

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon

    I don't think GW2 should have kept with the "traditional" mmo mechanics. It was interesting to see the attempt for a no party role dungeon system. More mmo's should try new things and bring something new and fresh over the table.

     

    That said, GW2 failed as far as I'm concerned. Hope some other AAA title in the near future succeeds.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
     

    i figured it all out on my own.. wasn't hard

    I figure that it is reasonable to assume that some basic explaination of game mechanics (esp if this is some new thing) is in the game or on ANet's site.

    Not on some youtube channel that isn't even ANet's official one.

    GW2 does some new things but it doesn't explain it at all to the players. How can anyone expect that to be accepted positively?

     

    I like a lot of GW2's new mechanics but that's something subjective. 

    I hate GW2's inability to explain itself, that's objectively bad.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member
    Originally posted by MightyChasm

    There is plenty that is good about GW2 but I just found it overwhelmingly tedious.  There are many reasons for this that I won't go into, but principally I never felt any sense of immersion.  I put this down to the following: -

    1) Lack of Quest Hubs:

    2) Lack of Defined Roles:

    Given the above, does anyone else feel that GW2 would have been a better game if it had retained more defined roles and more traditional quest hubs?  

    All the above is IMO so can we please avoid the usual pointless argument about this.  

     

    I think quest hubs along the current system could have been best, something for everyone. The variables in the quests/events are so damn simple anyway it would not have brought many dev hours more.

     

    I agree with the roles, the game felt like I never I had to even know what others are doing. It felt like it does not matter what class I pick my self, I can still just throw my self pretty much into any situation. But this is no surprise, the devs going on and on about the freedom and fun fun fun before the game released kinda tipped out the customers that this game will be extremely streamlined to make sure there will never be any obstacles, any at all, no matter how you play or what class, and that's a bit boring.

     

    I have to mention the abilities tied to weapons too, I never got to use the weapons I love on any of the classes pretty much because the skill set was wrong. I kinda like the idea of abilities tied to weapons and not just use every damn acid-arrow on rifles etc, but there should have been two or more abilites for eachs slot that you can choose from.

     

    Also, before launch I didnt like the lack of mounts replaced with instant teleporting to any discovered location and I still dont. It was perhaps the single most immersion breaking and annoying feature of the game. Not only did it get expensive unless you want to jog around super slow (out of combat movement being like standard movement in other mmorpgs, in combat like in tar), just blinking instantly basically anywhere kinda made the world feel super artificial, no need to actually travel anywhere, just blink.

     

    Other immersion breaking features that goes under the freedom and fun fun fun category is the mail anywhere auction anywhere. Again, less reasons to travel, and less reasons to visit population centers so I can just spam onwards, even if it was not so, I would just blink to auctioneer and then blink back in 30 seconds.

     

    Another thing was not having to visit any quest related npc's after completing basically anything... A lot of interaction with the world is removed from the game and I dont like it.

     

    The game was super easy and fun to hop into at first, but on the long run I miss the interaction with the world like quest givers, mailboxes, auctioning, traveling with mount vs. instantenous blinking, finding rare nodes etc etc. The game is just way way too streamlined having less of believable fantasy world feeling than your average themeparks.

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