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Originally posted by Novusod A lot of the hard core raiders especially put in LESS hours than casuals because they play hard and play to win. I have seen both sides as I have spent years raiding with casuals as well as a couple years raiding hard core. The idea that hard core gamers must be basement dwellers is largely a myth. Most hardcore players were adults with jobs. Hard core guilds are just very efficient and ultimately just better than casuals. They are not there for the friendships or other socializing. If someone is not pulling their weight in a hard core raid guild they get kicked out. Getting rid of slackers, Leeroy Jenkins types, and all arround bad players makes top guilds extremely efficient. Casuals often complain that it takes an hour just to form up a raid but the reality is in a hard core guild form up is done in less than 5 minutes. They get in, get the job done, and then go home. It is surprising how much can be accomplished if there is zero tollerance for fooling arround. Hard core players make gaming a lifestyle. This means they will take vaction time off when new content is released especially if there is a level cap in crease. The may put in marathon sessions for a few days but when that is over they are back to raiding just a couple hours for 3 or 4 days a week. The difference between hard core and casual is not the time spent but that the hard core player takes the game very seriously.
Right, this is how it works with us. I do not play a lot, nor do many of our guild members, but still we can maintain being a top guild.
When there is a level uncap we do play a lot, but again it's far more productive than casuals. I have the people who I play with on my messenger, I know when they're on, I know when they're asleep, as they do from me. Before a new expansion we log off fully buffed and our group is ready, we have planned out how we are going to level, we have planed out reserves if someone doesn't show up, we have planned out how long we will level etc. and we will play 8-10 hours in a row, but those are the only days we do that, every other day we play far less than some casuals.
We raid 3-4 hours and log off, raid 3-4 hours, log off, raid 3-4 hours, log off. This system of logging on on the same time and setting up groups and raids in minutes is a very productive way to play MMO.
3-4 hours 5 times a week is not a lot of playtime compared to casuals, but a casual is still looking for a group after 30 minutes while most raid guilds have gathered 54 peple in 2 minutes and have taken out a raid mob by then.
It's not because top guilds play more, it's their structure, their playstyle, the very srong bond and organisation skill they use to come together at the exact same time and their intolernace for anyone who doesn't abide by those same rules.
I will say that there are raiders in top guilds who simply play a lot, there are players who play non-stop, but this is not the case for the majority in our guild, 90% of the players log in for raid, raid and log off. they do not stay on to play, they have a job and don't have the time to play longer than 3-4 hours, but in those 3-4 hours, they are highly effective at contributing to the guild, far more effective than a casual who play 10 hours but log in at random times without consistency.
It's the same difference between casual guilds and top guilds when a new character enters the guild. In most casual guilds that player is left to fend for her / himself. In top guild every new character that comes in is immediatly "corrected", any missing xp or flags are checked and if that person is lacking anything they are immediately helped by good players in the guild who are good at powerleveling and going through missions as fast as possible. That player will be ready to play in a matter of days, while in casual guilds that player is still figuring out who to group with. When a new player comes into the guild who is not ready an officer will take the initiative and tell members of the guild to stop what they're doing and join the group with the newbee, and you play with this new character until they're ready and then go back to your regular group within the guild.
Most probably don't have jobs.
A friend of mine has known a guy for years that plays EVERY game in existence and has never worked a day in his life. He claims to have an incredible fear of going outside. Whatever that phobia is called. So he lives on disability due to his "illness" is very fat, and spends most of the government assistence on video games.
But there's tons of people like that. Living with their parents. Never work. Getting paid disability when in my humble opinion they're probably perfectly able. A lot of these people are gamers. I mean what else are they gonna do? They're not working.
If you think its an impossibility that you just can't get by without a job, thats reality for most people. However there's a ton of folks that's not a reality at all. They can sit around at home all day and not do crap. Except read comic books, play video games, and watch pornography all the while getting extremely impatient on whats taking mom so long to finish making the chicken friend steak and green bean DINNER! COMON ALREADY! MOOOOOM! GAWD!!!!
If you think this is some sort of fiction, or rarity, it's not. It's totally not. In online games these people are all over the place. Its just the way it is.
EDIT: I also have to say I'm amused that most of the replies in this thread are working off some premise that these people must be doing something for money. Seriously folks. No. Just no. If they're not earning on disability regarding their chronic itchy toenail, they're just 35 years old saying, " MOM! I want the WoW EXPANSION! I HAVE NOTHING TO DOOO! Yea....thank you. Its not that expensive anyways. NO I DONT WANT TO MOW THE LAWN!!!! ". I know they make comedies like "Step Brothers" about this stuff. But it seriously exists. For real. And its actually far more common than most of you would seem to be able to believe.
So in short what do they do for a living? Probably jack diddly squat that's what.
I never raided hardcore, but I did knew a few people that seemed to be online at all hours. Some were college students, others, just happened to do nothing but work and play, when they weren't at work, they were at home playing, and almost all day long on weekends.
One case I knew worked from home doing audio stuff, he had his whole studio at home next to his gaming computer. When he had to work it was usually doing overnight stuff, and when he had big projects he would dissapear for days at a time, but other than that he was in game most of the day.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
I'm a software consultant for a computer system that the military use. I'm basically a living insurance policy. They pay me to be a subject matter expert on the system, so that when it breaks, I can fly out and fix the problem.
I bring my gaming laptop to work and play single player games there most of the day, then I go home, do whatever my wife has for me to do on the "honey-do" list, help the kids with their homework, eat dinner with my family at the table, and then I play games most of the evening.
Some of us just simply have a lot of free time.
If you're smart, then you plan out a career path that has absolutely nothing to do with time cards, cash registors or sitting in cubicles for 8 hours a day. Every day I log onto my computer and bill the company for 8 hours of work, and that's just to keep my expertise around, whether I did anything that day or not. Work smarter, not harder and you'll have plenty of time to do the things you want to do like paint Warhammer 40k armies and play video games all day.
Originally posted by Corehaven Most probably don't have jobs. A friend of mine has known a guy for years that plays EVERY game in existence and has never worked a day in his life. He claims to have an incredible fear of going outside. Whatever that phobia is called. So he lives on disability due to his "illness" is very fat, and spends most of the government assistence on video games. But there's tons of people like that. Living with their parents. Never work. Getting paid disability when in my humble opinion they're probably perfectly able. A lot of these people are gamers. I mean what else are they gonna do? They're not working. If you think its an impossibility that you just can't get by without a job, thats reality for most people. However there's a ton of folks that's not a reality at all. They can sit around at home all day and not do crap. Except read comic books, play video games, and watch pornography all the while getting extremely impatient on whats taking mom so long to finish making the chicken friend steak and green bean DINNER! COMON ALREADY! MOOOOOM! GAWD!!!! If you think this is some sort of fiction, or rarity, it's not. It's totally not. In online games these people are all over the place. Its just the way it is.
I have played MMORPGs for a good long while and I do not know of many players who fall into this category. In fact, I only know of two "basement dwellers".
Almost everyone else I know does not fall into this category. I know of one or two stay-at-home mothers who were home watching over extremely young children. In one case, she had immigrated to another country and was waiting for her paperwork to go through for a work permit. She fully expected to go to work and her house-boundedness was only temporary.
Many of the hardcore gamers I know have seasonal work, are in the military, are business people, are sysadmins that have time to kill. In these cases, they are not always online, but when they are on their favourite game, they are there a lot.
The vast majority of gamers I have met that play a lot every day, as I said, are disabled and many of them are already in retirement. Or they are in isolated areas where it is difficult for them to get out and socialize (like some places in Canada, Norway, etc.).
Quite a few are unemployed and have time to kill but not a lot of money to spend on entertainment, so they play MMORPGs. Unemployment rates are very high here in the EU, and not just for the young. Slightly more than 1 out of 10 people are looking for work on average, and once you are laid off, it is harder to find work again, so why not play MMORPGs when you can ? It is quite possible to play a lot of MMORPGs and look for work at the same time
I hardly know of any teenagers even who play all the time, especially here in the EU where people tend to have large exams at the end of high school.
Outside of the two people I mentioned in my first paragraph, most players I know would prefer to be gainfully employed and/or well enough to have a normal life, but for whatever reason, they can't. The paragraph I bolded is really the vast majority of people I have met in these games : they either lived far away from other people or they were extremely ill.
Edit - I also know quite a few university students who play a lot.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Originally posted by Xiaoki Originally posted by Greyhooff Originally posted by Mors.Magne Originally posted by Panther2103 A lot of the top players get sponsorships from companies to run things and be the best at what they do. If they clear something first, and stream it, or make videos of it, the more views they get the more ad revenue the companies provide to them. Some top gaming clans and top MMO clan players can make more than enough to live off of just playing their favorite game(s).
This is something that comes as a surprise to people who thought paragon were millionaires living off Asus sponsorship or whatever.
Most top MMO guilds actually don't even play as many hours as you'd think. Most of their players have jobs, and I know casual guilds that spend more time in-game than a lot of top MMO guilds.
It's just a matter of efficiency. Just like productivity of modern mechanised farmers vs ancient egyptian farmers who needed 10x the hours and manpower for the same yield of crops.
Paragon teamed with the Chinese guild Dream and Dream is a well known e-sports sponsor in Asia.
So, yes, there are WoW guilds that are paid to raid.
You obviously don't know what WoW sponsorship is, or what you get for it.
You get a free gaming mousemat, or a headset or some junk. Sometimes you get tickets to events and maybe a shared hotel room. That's it.
No one in Paragon got a salary. No one is getting paid for tanking junk in WoW, no one cares, it's not a job and no one has ever earned a living playing a MMO.
People who believe this junk are like children with no clue about real life.
The average day in the life of a top MMO raid/pvp player: go to work like everyone else, come home and play for 90%+ of free time, and go back to work the next day.
Yes, some are unemployed, yes some are millionaire retirees, and some are housewives/househusbands. But that's true of the overall population also. They're just regular people who put more effort and purpose into their MMOing.
A guy I know works full time 40 hours a week, 8-5, M-F type deal. As soon as he gets off work he hops online ( WoW at the time). He would play until 12-1am or so daily after work. Rinse & repeat M-F.
Sat and sunday were pretty much all day / night gaming.
Add that up and he was spending around 60 + hours a week gaming, at least. He did work full time, pay his bills, did not live with mom and dad, even had a live in GF.
I would imagine alot of people do what he did / does. Granted I think that is excessive, but who am I to judge how he spends his time.
Not everyone who games hardcore is an unemployed basement dweller living off the Gov. titty, or parents money. Some do i am sure. But I would think many many of them just devote all the free time to gaming online.
friend of mine very good profesional in real live. Got well paid job Mon-Friday 9-5. Plays about 4-5 hours a day after work. At least u know where to find him if hes not answering a phone.
I used to lead a WoW guild that would always be top for server firsts in Vanilla. We had the Green dragons on farm and always seemed to be able to amass a raid group for whatever popped up. We worked hard to rush through Molten Core, then Blackwing Lair and then into AQ. We had the best gear and everyone said we were no lifers who lived in their parents basement. None of us were, we all had jobs, rather succesful ones.
Most of the players were regular people. Our main tank was in a wheel chair at 19 and took online classes while living at his parents home. Then there was a Captain in the Army, when he wasn't deployed he was very dependable, his wife also loved to play as well. We also had two programmers that worked for NASA, no shit. One of the guys ran a construction business and recruited players from his work.
We had a few housewives, but mostly it was 9-5 working husbands with various jobs. We had several college students as well. We rarely talked work and usually just used the game and smashing whichever bosses we fought for the night as a means to unwind from the day.
The idea that anyone who raids and does it successfully is a fat, worthless bald guy in the basement of their parents house is only said to make others feel better about their lack of achievements in games. It is very often said, and only very rarely true.
i failed in Architecture ...
i gone to army, come back, and still play MMOs but i return to my studies for 2 years now, also live with my girlfriend and on weekends i work ... i play around 5hours per day my MMO which are enough to be a good player
i am not top player cause i lack of skill .. but i was hardcore cause of time wasted ... : /
the MMO i play ? GW2 cause its the only MMO where you can top(top statistics) your character without grinding ...
Personally I think it's very illogical to try and extract real life observations based on gaming achievements.
From my experience I will agree with many of the posters, most people that are successful in games don't really play more than the average of any other hobbyist. But like any hobbyist that really is into it they just devote more energy into making the best with the time they have available.
Sometimes I think the only reason the stereotype exist about living in the basement, mooching off etc comes from the same source as when people say "Oh he works 24/7, he doesn't have a personal life what a loser".
Most people I met online playing it hard and for long hours had at least minor RL issues... And by RL issues I mean "conditions" that allow for a lot of time to be poured into online gaming. Like:
- Kids (and by kids I mean everyone ages 1 to 18)
- University students
- People with a disability
- Unemployed, part-time
SOME, I guess around 30% of the 'hardcore'-crowd, were normal people with a job but serious issues regarding their leisure time management (like work-8h, eat-15mins, play-8h, sleep-rest) - practially locking out most rl-related stuff (GF, wife, kids, sport, friends).
In all my years, I've never met one single "normal" person (me included while being at university) with a healthy social life playing an online game.
Now, I am married, have a son, work 45 hours a week: If I want to keep a normal life, see my child grow up, spend time with my wife, go out and actually do stuff and work full time all that's left are a meager 90 minutes at unsteady times. As much as I'd want to change that, It just won't happen, not if I want to keep the "normal" life.
AT least that's my take on it, from experience.
Originally posted by CalmOceans About 3 hours, 5 times per week, which to me is not that much,
That is 15 hours per week. A typical job is about 40 hours per week. So you are playing almost 1/2 of a full time job's amount each week.
I wouldn't equat that to casual at all. Casual would be 1-4 hours in an entire week. I think sometimes people who play a lot forget how much time they really do play.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the amount of time or having MMOs as a hobby. Just pointing out that 15 hours a week isn't a small amount of play time in a game.
Originally posted by Kazuhiro Originally posted by Zorgo Originally posted by gambe1 I knew few people that could play at work. Goverment jobs mostly. No surprise there.
You cannot play games on a government network.
Even gaming sites, like this one are blocked.
*Laughs uncontrollably for a few momments.*
Yeah, sure, no way around that, nope, not at all.
Anyway, while I was never into games with raiding and all that stuff. I did play some very time demanding pvp games like EVE and PERPETUUM for nearly 18 hours a day sometimes. In my case I'm a network administrator, my day consists of sitting either at home or in the office with one or monitors keeping tabs on performance and issues, and leaves me with nothing but time for games/internet until a issue arises. Honestly software takes care of almost everything today, but they have to keep someone on hand for the odd issue it can't handle.
You have a high opinion of government employees if you think they have the skills to work around the administrative access. Yes there are IT folks that can do it; but for the normal government worker, ..... heck, they have to call IT to get Adobe flash player updated. It is a very restrictive system.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf Originally posted by CalmOceans About 3 hours, 5 times per week, which to me is not that much,
I think though up to a point it's a bit of a double standard. I mean for example if someone goes to the gym for like 1hour per day would you say that's a lot?
Or others that spend like 1-2 days fishing or hiking. Up to a point I think gaming is associating with "doing nothing" that's why for many people 10 hours per week seem a lot while other activities of equal time get less attention
Originally posted by Mors.Magne In DUST - and probably in all MMORPGs - there seems to be several hundered players who are in the top few clans or guilds. They are the elite of the game - by a large margin - and they seem to play the game like it's a job. If there is a tournament, their clans will be the top few teams. If you want to join them, the expectation is that you play the game like it's a job as well. But how do these people find the time? What do they do for a living? I'm just curious as to whether anyone has an insight into this.
ahhh easy answer
they eat their parent's money
Originally posted by Tymoris Originally posted by SnarlingWolf Originally posted by CalmOceans About 3 hours, 5 times per week, which to me is not that much,
I cut his post down to not make a huge post. He was saying that he plays that much and that there are casual players who play more than he does.
Once you get to 15 hours a week, you aren't casual anymore. My point was more when people do any hobby a lot, they don't view it as a lot anymore because that is what they do and inevitably know someone who does it more than they do.
Someone who worked out 1 hour everyday wouldn't be someone who casually worked out. They would be a person who was into fitness and either staying in shape or building bigger muscles. Again, nothing wrong with it (and actually probably a lot RIGHT with it since it is good for you), but it is at a higher level of doing it since people who are working on getting in shape tend to do more like 4 hours a week (1 hr on 4 different days).
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Usually, the hardcore MMOs players that I've personally known (meaning that i've talked with them on Ventrilo or whatever) were mostly in their early 20s, with a pretty regular job (working in grocery stores, cooks in restaurants and such) but mostly without any social life whatsoever. They pretty much worked and played the game, thats it. When they did ''go out in the real life'' they would probably go to the movies and hang out with their friends that play the same game.
I was once pretty hardcore gamer but it was mainly because I just arrived in a new city, without knowing anybody and since I was going back to college most of my classmates were 17-18 I didnt connect with any of them. As soon as I made good friends with my first part-time job I pretty much stopped being a hardcore gamer.
IMO it is all determined if having an active social life matters to you and that it ACTUALLY interests you more hanging out with people/friends/girlfriend than play the game.
I find all the posts on this thread really facinating.
Thank you all for contributing.
I'll return and read more later on.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf I cut his post down to not make a huge post. He was saying that he plays that much and that there are casual players who play more than he does. Once you get to 15 hours a week, you aren't casual anymore. My point was more when people do any hobby a lot, they don't view it as a lot anymore because that is what they do and inevitably know someone who does it more than they do.
I don't disagree with you that my view is likely skewed.
Just wanted to make a small note really, I use the word casual very differently from you I think. You equate this with someone who plays sparingly, in contrast to someone who plays a lot.
To me a casual is simply a person who plays casually, they play very carelessly and like to smell the flowers and are not interested in efficient progression or don't know how to progress efficiently without playing very long hours. I was pointing out that amongst those players, some of them play a lot more than I do.
I'm not trying to define what "casual" means btw, just pointing out why I said what I said really.
Originally posted by Trudge34 Are they maybe sponsored? Stay at home parents? Work from home? Ebay, digital game items ect. That would be my guess at least.
I'd say it is often this. The word is shill. They do it for a living and they get paid to.
Back when I played FFXI
I was in a linkshell (clan) and one of the people was a wife who's husband was in iraq, and she didn't have any kids or work... so she was on.. 12-15hrs/day
and I was 15 and failing at school, so I would play from 6 at night untill about 3 in the morning..
(after about 9 months of that I realized my life was going to suck if I did't buckle down for school, so I quite FFXI cold turkey)
And there was one other guy in our clan, who was retired (if I remember right he was like 61) and he didn't have a fam of any sort, so he would play for 20+ a day.
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