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Why the MMO is nice at begining and bad in the end? (about leveling)

2

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  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,548Member Uncommon

    It is a themepark disease.  Yeah, I hate it too.  It becomes a great burden when there is no other direction to go but up.

     

    Ever stop in a game and ask yourself WHY AM I LEVELING and WHAT ELSE IS THERE?  I play a cheezy f2p named Mabinogi because they have harder but it's a choice of the player how hard.  If you don't want to do it pick a different dungeon.  It wont matter to leveling because you skill up instead of level up.  No difference what you skill on because skill is based on time not accomplishments.  Time and doing something/anything.  You choose challenge based on how many friends you can gather up or if a solo mission (which can be very hard) how you learned to defeat enemies.  Sad my game is so immature looking and laggy it has great concepts I would like to see applied to other games.


  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    After a few hours/days/weeks/months years, we're bored, been there and done that.  The mechanics don't change, the way we interact with the game doesn't change.

    Thats why it's bad in the end, we're just bored of it.

    It baffles me how men can grow bored with their wives in just a few years, but expect a hobby/games to still be "like it used to be" after more than a decade.

    Havent you heard the old one?

    When a woman marries a man she expects him to change, but he doesnt.

    When a man marries a woman he expects her to stay the same, but she changes.

    Flame on!

    :)

     

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,978Member Uncommon

    Not sure what titles OP is complaining about, modern MMO's have hardly any leveling curve to them at all compared to the earlier titles.

    I recall in DAOC it was a pretty steady (but increasing) slog uphill to level 40, then the curve started to go up substantially from lvls 40-45 and almost exponentially from 46-50 and you didn't grind levels by days, but across many with the final ones taking perhaps weeks to complete (assuming a more casual play style)

    Which was child's play compared to the leveling curves of Lineage 1 and 2.

    In Lineage 1 the curve went steady upwards the entire way, and again, the fight from level 40-47 (or 48?) was significant but manageable.

    Around 48 they started basically requiring you to earn the same amount of experience you earned to get from levels 1-47 to gain one level to 48.  They repeated this for level 49 on upward, always having to gain the full amount of experience of all levels prior to it.   Most folks got to 50 and gave up, therefore only real diehards ever made it to 51 or 52, and every now and then a rare 55. 

    Exp gains at that time were measured in microdots, you might gain 2-5% a night, and if you happened to die for some reason, PVE or PVE you could see all that and more erased in a single death.

    Lineage 2 was a bit more forgiving, but it was a long hard slog to 74 and I never made it, burned out after 6 months at only level 51.  (and earning enough adena to gear yourself properly turned out to be the real hill I couldn't master)

    So at the end of the day, I guess it  all depends on one's perspective.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • dgarbinidgarbini San Jose, CAPosts: 185Member

    I would argue that its not the leveling thats boring, its the games that are boring overall.  MMO's in genreal have subpar gameplay when compared to single player games.  As far as I am concerned leveling should be a implimented method for obtaining power as you naturally progress through the game.  That is progression.

    Think about single player games such as borderlands or elderscrolls or fallout (or any) leveling wasnt the pupose it just happened as going through the game, no grind.  There is not reason that MMO's could not be just as enjoyable in an open world.  And I do think that leveling is the 'game' so the longer it takes essentially the more 'game' you get to play.  I do not buy into the idea of 'end game' becuase more often then not it is essentially the same grind or nothing.

    If you game is based on end game (say like guild wars 2) why have leveling at all then?  Why not just start with pvp or wvw or raids, why even have the other content?

    I spent many more hours on games like Everquest or Anarchy Online then most modern MMOs (say GW2 more recently) but the leveling was much much slower.  So saying speeding up leveling is the answer is just not so.  I would agree that the leveling process though needs to be made more fun, which means the games need to be made more fun in general, as well as more content, more complexity (for replayability as well as variety), and more of a game 'world' then a theme park.

  • WereLlamaWereLlama Lubbock, TXPosts: 243Member

    I definately believe human relationships are very similar to games.

    Alot of relationships (in either case) end due to a Shock and Awe moment that is more powerful then the 'stickyness' or mutual investment between the two things.   Any thing that makes you 're-evaluate' your relationship, is a Shock and Awe moment.  I think Raff Koster calls these 'Exit' opportunities.

    Human Ex. If you put alot of challenging Time and Effort into your Wife (investment), you might be less likely (stickyness) to dump her when you find out she slept with your brother (shock and awe).

    Game Ex. If you have invested alot of Time and Effort into a Game, you might be less likely to quit the game in boredom and stick with it once you find out there is nothing to do on a particular day (like in EQ being LFG for 4 hours caused alot of Exits).

    -Blitz

     

     

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by phantomghost

    When you max level and there is nothing to do you get bored. 

    EQ did it right with AA.... always leveling.

    EQ AA is a form of a vertical progression but much milder

     

    I wish more mmos had nongear progression at max level

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    This is the Obvious Fault of the themepark, Alot of people will claim the endgame for their respective games is great then say that they have 5 lvl 80's. If you have that many endgame characters then the endgame is not good. the endgame at that point would be "Reroll and do it again" Im quite positive that its nearly impossible for a Themepark to have good endgame. Im on the Fence about TSW because of monthly releases. However after being pushed B2P those releases have stopped being monthly. This is much to my aggrivation. i can only hope this is a temporary setback while they change sites.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,310Member Uncommon
    Sandbox is no different. Whether there is an actual end game like inmany themeparks or just a repeat of pvp/craft... like in many sandboc its still the same thing. Repeated content. Same gameplay, same interaction. That's the problem, it gets boring, tjere is nothing new to learn, figure out or in many caaes do.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member

    From the 3 mmos that i played more than 1 month, only WoW fits the thread's title. The others 2 (UO and L2) had better experience in the "endgame".

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nebullae

    Why the MMO is nice at begining and bad in the end? (about leveling)

     A couple of reasons, but I think one of them that is often overlooked is that they often don't give players enough time to test endgame in open beta. Most games made this mistake.

     

    They should have stock high level characters in open beta so people can do endgame contents, test it, and give feedback.

     

    However I suspect they also DON'T want to do that because they know they have not put enough effort into endgame by the time the game was launched - most don't because they wanted to refine the start so that it looks good when people first come play it, and they THOUGHT they have time to refine the endgame by the time people get there.

     

    Problem is pretty much all developers underestimate the number, the speed and the desire of players who want to get to max level in the shortest time.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,471Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by pongdun
    Ok guys but would it be possible to do a list of the ones that doesn't follow this stupid leveling curve? GW2 is one, more?

     Sounds like work.  How much are you paying for that?

  • pongdunpongdun CampinasPosts: 64Member

    Dgarbini I agree with you in some aspects. But what I think is the main problem is that you have to choose a better method for leveling, that would mean making it fun to level (just like you said about single player games) or if it's a boring grinding, then I think it would be better to speed up, since that will make a lot of players, including me, to quit playing before reaching max level, that is when (if the developers are good enough) you really need to have good content and good pvp!

    BlitzVF yeah I understand your point, but I don't think that a healthy way of managing the players, it seems to me a bit like a prison. We should stay in a game cause it's good, dinamic, fun etc not because we "need it".

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Sandbox is no different. Whether there is an actual end game like inmany themeparks or just a repeat of pvp/craft... like in many sandboc its still the same thing. Repeated content. Same gameplay, same interaction. That's the problem, it gets boring, tjere is nothing new to learn, figure out or in many caaes do.

    Even the desert has borders...

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yakkin
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Sandbox is no different. Whether there is an actual end game like inmany themeparks or just a repeat of pvp/craft... like in many sandboc its still the same thing. Repeated content. Same gameplay, same interaction. That's the problem, it gets boring, tjere is nothing new to learn, figure out or in many caaes do.

    Even the desert has borders...

    Yes.  I didn't say there is a practical way out of it.  I don't think there is actually.  The part that makes games intriguing is often the challenge of a puzzle or difficult encounter, or the thrill of something new.  Once the newness is gone you are left with the game itself, sometimes the gameplay is challenging as in you need to employ new and different strategies to conquer than it's great.  When you've mastered that task whats left?

    Some games are just fun as a shoot em up, god mode play, those are great in short bursts.  But long term play needs something more, a challenge, or a least a goal.  Most games just don't offer enough variety in them.

    You are playing the same way in WoW lvl 80 as you are at level 10, you've allready mastered most of that task.  In the genre we are basically playing the same way as we did 12 years ago.  We've allready mastered that.

    Want to get the thrill at the end as you do at the beginning?  The only way is do something new.

    In RL hobbies last longer as you can always learn a new technique, make it a little bit better, do something a little or a lot different.  But in a game with limited options (and they all have limits) this really isn't possible.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Yakkin
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Sandbox is no different. Whether there is an actual end game like inmany themeparks or just a repeat of pvp/craft... like in many sandboc its still the same thing. Repeated content. Same gameplay, same interaction. That's the problem, it gets boring, tjere is nothing new to learn, figure out or in many caaes do.

    Even the desert has borders...

    Yes.  I didn't say there is a practical way out of it.  I don't think there is actually.  The part that makes games intriguing is often the challenge of a puzzle or difficult encounter, or the thrill of something new.  Once the newness is gone you are left with the game itself, sometimes the gameplay is challenging as in you need to employ new and different strategies to conquer than it's great.  When you've mastered that task whats left?

    Some games are just fun as a shoot em up, god mode play, those are great in short bursts.  But long term play needs something more, a challenge, or a least a goal.  Most games just don't offer enough variety in them.

    You are playing the same way in WoW lvl 80 as you are at level 10, you've allready mastered most of that task.  In the genre we are basically playing the same way as we did 12 years ago.  We've allready mastered that.

    Want to get the thrill at the end as you do at the beginning?  The only way is do something new.

    In RL hobbies last longer as you can always learn a new technique, make it a little bit better, do something a little or a lot different.  But in a game with limited options (and they all have limits) this really isn't possible.

    That was my way of saying "I agree". :P

  • EmrendilEmrendil TirionPosts: 199Member
    If you ask me, leveling should be really really short. More like an introduction to the game. The main focus should be on the "end game". I far more enjoy in challenging dungeons, raiding, or some big world events with fully developed character then in slow leveling with boring "go kill 9 rats" or "bring 20 flowers" quests.
  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member

    in reply to the OP

    in short its tradition. i know that sounds corny and is a bad excuse buts its the truth, as far bakc as most people can rember a game with level takes expidionaly more xp tp rech the next level.

    why *shrugs* beats me. some MMOs break this others dont, to be honest i dont actully have a preference its just how it is.

    im sure ots of people her have given really really long reason why you should agree with them but meh, its opions and not something that can be argued in facts.

     

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • GraeyGraey Jacksonville, FLPosts: 218Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Sijjistoryus
    This is why it's important to have player-generated content as well as game content.

    i agree and its still odd to me how so many games release with 0 systems in place for player made content.. and many that do add it like housing for instance usually do it well down the line in the games lifespan.. really why I'm looking forward to NW and hoping their new foundry system is worth putting time into

    Played the Beta to NW. From what I played I don't see it becoming a sleeper hit. I might be wrong but...

    I think the concept of the foundry is a great idea. It gives players something to do  and the devs leeway in terms of non player made content. I think games like wow, rift, gw2 do not have a base system set up for that. What would be really nice is if there was an MMO, with all the parts necessary to function in  a changing environment.

     

    Player made content

    Pvp as part of the game not tacked on

    One world, or a variation of this.

    Leveling should be slowed, but there should be sub leveling sort of like the mini-dings in EQ2.

    With sub leveling there should be something that you get in between to keep people moving. Perhaps dungeons level requirements, and you have to progress in the dungeon to unlock the next tier of your leveling process like FF11.

    Great story and Lore

    Players should start the game with nothing. I really dont understand how a player can start the game with items already. Picture them shipwrecked on an island or something with nothing but cloth. All mechanics are taught until you become proficient at them.

     

    No FFA PVP. unless its done right. if you cant stop griefing then at the least have a FFA server and non FFA server.

    Housing.

     

    You know just have one big ass dungeon in the middle of nowhere with say 100+ floors. and the player builds pretty much everything else. around that dungeon.

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    Originally posted by Emrendil
    If you ask me, leveling should be really really short. More like an introduction to the game. The main focus should be on the "end game". I far more enjoy in challenging dungeons, raiding, or some big world events with fully developed character then in slow leveling with boring "go kill 9 rats" or "bring 20 flowers" quests.

    WHY, sorry but really why what happend to MMOs being about the adventure about the story why is everyone in such a HUGE hurry to get to the end a hit each other in PVP is that all anyone cares about anymore.

    i miss when i could spend months playing a game with friends and learning about the world and lore now all anyone wants to do is get to the ends and read the walkthrough and be ubber.

    to hell with that i miss my stories and immerison dammit

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    Originally posted by Emrendil
    If you ask me, leveling should be really really short. More like an introduction to the game.

    WHY, sorry but really why what happend to MMOs being about the adventure about the story why is everyone in such a HUGE hurry to get to the end a hit each other in PVP is that all anyone cares about anymore.

    You're describing two polar opposite models, that's all. 

    Some focus more on the leveling content, some focus more on the "end game" content.

    I wrastled with a goal of chasing down and applying the beatdown to Arthas for...about 18 months all together. That was the "adventure" and the "Story", despite only involving ten levels of leveling content (less than a month). It also involved many dozen other stories along the way, goals both short and long.

    And I've also spent ten years on leveling content without approaching the cap, the extreme at the other end.

    PvP? Some people focus entirely (and only) on that, for their own reasons. Other guys like focusing on Building Stuff. Or Exploring. Or crafting. I've been know to dig roleplaying, even to the exclusion of any of the Mechanics systems. (It is common for gamers to grow bored enough to change their "favorite" focus entirely, from time to time.)

    Not my place to tell any other people what the "right" way to play is.

    Good thing we have all of these titles to choose from.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • pongdunpongdun CampinasPosts: 64Member
    Hey Squeak69 the problem is that this thing, leveling with friends, learning about the world, etc it doesnt exist anymore, they don't make the game in a way that there's something to learn or found out about the world, leveling became just grinding. If they make a way that leveling would be good nobody would be complaning about it. In Tera for example it's fun to level until level 20m that's when you are still having fun, meeting new mobs, etc. After this the thing become boring, even the mobs are the same (with some modified horns and colors), nothing new, totally boring and stupid! And then you realize you have to face this from 20 to 60.... it's worst than mc donalds job!!!
  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by nebullae

    Guys I know that maybe someone already posted about this, but my doubt is:

    Why does the developers do a system that you can level in a good timing when you are low level and them it gets so hard when you are on mid to high levels. Thats tottaly not nice. I played lots of MMO and all of them have this (almost all), you can level 4 or 5 levels a day at the begining but not even 1 level a day in the end!!!!

    Other thing is that when you are starting a game, it's much more cool, more players, so it keeps you going... but as you level you become more lonely and it gets boring. This happens more in asians MMOs I believe.

    Why do you think developers do this? Is that a lack of sense or perception, or maybe bad work, what you think?

    I don't mind the xp arc, that is part of the game.  But often the starter areas are better developed than the mid and end areas- I understand why this is done but it always leaves you a little disappointed.  It also results in packed early zones as people experiment with alts and packed cap zones/ instances/ whatever and the rest of the world empty and all the effort put into it for nought.  

    I would actually prefer to have multi-level zones.  I would like to revisit that level 10 zone at 40 to complete higher level parts of earlier quests.  

  • pongdunpongdun CampinasPosts: 64Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    Originally posted by Emrendil
    If you ask me, leveling should be really really short. More like an introduction to the game.

    WHY, sorry but really why what happend to MMOs being about the adventure about the story why is everyone in such a HUGE hurry to get to the end a hit each other in PVP is that all anyone cares about anymore.

    You're describing two polar opposite models, that's all. 

    Some focus more on the leveling content, some focus more on the "end game" content.

    I wrastled with a goal of chasing down and applying the beatdown to Arthas for...about 18 months all together. That was the "adventure" and the "Story", despite only involving ten levels of leveling content (less than a month). It also involved many dozen other stories along the way, goals both short and long.

    And I've also spent ten years on leveling content without approaching the cap, the extreme at the other end.

    PvP? Some people focus entirely (and only) on that, for their own reasons. Other guys like focusing on Building Stuff. Or Exploring. Or crafting. I've been know to dig roleplaying, even to the exclusion of any of the Mechanics systems. (It is common for gamers to grow bored enough to change their "favorite" focus entirely, from time to time.)

    Not my place to tell any other people what the "right" way to play is.

    Good thing we have all of these titles to choose from.

    Ice sincerily we really have some titles to choose from but the great majority of it (99%) are crap, old or have this stupid grinding system. Come on guys, let's tell the truth it's really not like old games anymore. When in my opinion when in a game, the players just wanna go fast to max level this means your leveling system is crap, is boring and stupid. And more than that, if when the players reach max level your endgame is crap too, they all will quit!

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by pongdun

    (99%) are crap

    If a mind is that completely closed, what do you expect developers can do to fix it?

    Watch these threads carefully, A huge percentage of them are entirely reactionary--I don't want any new game at all, I want an ancient one as it existed fifteen years ago, please clone it, just fix the bugs and update the graphics. EZ!

    The original developers couldn't keep their games entirely static (which we will happily grouse at them for, the TOAs or the NGEs or whatever ancient grudge we're still nursing). Even when and where those ancient games are operating, we can't play one (omg graphics so outdated, it's not the same game it was, nanana).

    What chance does a new developer have to hit the unique and magical combimation of "feelings" these people are trying to recover from their lost youths?  Realistically?

    :point at the guy listing 30 ex-games in his resume:

    Can he be pleased, at all? Or is he the high-maintenance type of customer who's more expensive to try to keep than to lose?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by pongdun

    (99%) are crap

    Once your mind is that completely closed, what do you expect developers can do to fix it?

    Watch these threads carefully, A huge percentage of them are entirely reactionary--I don't want any new game at all, I want an ancient one as it existed fifteen years ago, please clone it, just fix the bugs and update the graphics. EZ!

    The original developers couldn't keep their games entirely static (which we will happily grouse at them for, the TOAs or the NGEs or whatever ancient grudge we're still nursing). Even when and where those ancient games are operating, we can't play one (omg graphics so outdated, it's not the same game it was, nanana).

    What chance does a new developer have to hit the unique and magical combimation of "feelings" these people are trying to recover from their lost youths?  Realistically?

    :point at the guy listing 30 ex-games in his resume:

    Can he be pleased, at all? Or is he the high-maintenance type of customer who's more expensive to keep than to lose?

    If you spent too much time searching for that magical first year when you found pubs you would wind up alcoholic.  An extreme and entirely irrelevent example, but I think it is literally nothing like this with mmo's.  In conclusion no-one is ever going to rediscover the magic of their first mmo experience.  

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