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Why kickstarter?

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  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Galadourn

     

    MJ has decided that he wants to be held accountable to the players who will play and support the game, 

     

    Kickstarter you are held accountable to no one.

     

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member

    It's not the programming, most fail by design.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • GaladournGaladourn AthensPosts: 1,052Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Galadourn

     

    MJ has decided that he wants to be held accountable to the players who will play and support the game, 

     

    Kickstarter you are held accountable to no one.

     

    I'm not referring to legal accountability, I'm referring to design decisions.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Galadourn

     

    MJ has decided that he wants to be held accountable to the players who will play and support the game, 

     

    Kickstarter you are held accountable to no one.

     

    I'm not referring to legal accountability, I'm referring to design decisions.

    Still not seeing the accountability.  Its not like the money can be pulled back.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    Trion was able to get MAJOR funding for a startup company.  

    They were making a themepark, PVE-centered cookie cutter fantasy MMO - a "WoW killer" if you like. Of course they were able to get MAJOR funding for that.

    CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

    I'm going to back up CU if they will have something solid to show when the campaign launches. Not going to support ideas only, because ideas I can make myself.

     

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

     

    Originally posted by Voiidiin

    Hmm you think maybe Mark does not have confidence in publishers ?

    On a side note, Kickstarter will allow game innovation to flourish, and no longer stagnate on the back burners of publishing houses who refuse to attempt new ideas. My personal opinion is that the age of WoW clones is coming to an end finally.

    And raising development money has nothing to do with a publisher.  If Mark wants to self-publish, thats just extra capital to raise.

    People are donating to kickstarter without even understanding some basic concepts.

    There are 3 basic options for publishing.  Option 1 is what ArenaNet, Mtyhic, Bioware, etc do:  have your parent company publish.  Obviously for a startup company this isnt an option, and this is the one that people hate because this is the case where you have the least freedom.

    Option 2 is to strike a deal with someone to publish for you.  the most recent example of this is ArcheAge having Trion publish.  Usually a company will have near complete creative control with this set up, they just lose some of the revenue to the publisher.

    Option 3 is to self publish.  Trion and Funcom are two examples.

    With or without kickstarter, Mark needs a publishing option.  With or without kickstarter, he would choose 2 or 3, and both options leave him in control.

    As for the whole WoW clone thing, last year saw TERA, GW2 and TSW release.  All significantly different than WoW.  The biggest MMO franchise is getting a sandbox.  We have MMOFPSs and a MMORTS in development.  And there have been a few sandboxes over the last few years, but they all have one thing in common:  they suck.  Kickstarter isnt going to solve shitty programming. 

     

     

     

     

     

    Since I'm totally clueless on the financial aspect of mmorpg.  Can you explain me the option 2 and 3 example?

    Trion is a western publisher of Archage.  But they don't fund the game at all.  All they do is take a completed game, maybe do some translation and sell it to the western audience. 

    And isn't funcom a public trading company? They get most of their fund through the public people buying shares of the company. 

    So I'm not sure how the case of Camelot Unchain is related to those example.

    And I don't understand how company raise funds for their game.  Do they "loan" money, or do they find "partner/shareholder" for it.

    Since you sound like an expert in this topic, can you explain?

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon

    I read through the whole thread now and I realize most of you guys don't understand the difference between an investment and a loan.

    I think that's enough to end this discussion, until you guys do a little reading and learn the difference.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DarkLordIxor

    Just need lax investors that  don't try to change a game or push for the release too soon.

    Yeah about that...

    Good luck.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by tom_gore

     

    CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

     

     

    Because the investment is significantly smaller, DAoC has a great reputation, and PvP-centric MMOs done right can lead to success (EvE).  there is definitely a demand for a DAoC successor.

     

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by tom_gore

     

    CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

     

     

    Because the investment is significantly smaller, DAoC has a great reputation, and PvP-centric MMOs done right can lead to success (EvE).  there is definitely a demand for a DAoC successor.

     

    Ok read the my previous post.  EIther many things you say don't make alot of sense, or I'm totally clueless.

  • GaladournGaladourn AthensPosts: 1,052Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Galadourn

     

    MJ has decided that he wants to be held accountable to the players who will play and support the game, 

     

    Kickstarter you are held accountable to no one.

     

    I'm not referring to legal accountability, I'm referring to design decisions.

    Still not seeing the accountability.  Its not like the money can be pulled back.

    you're still referring to the legal aspect. An investor in any investment can't pull his money back either, unless he either finds someone to sell his shares to OR has a specific such term in the shareholder's agreement contract.

  • Origin1983Origin1983 thatPosts: 3Member

    I don't understand the discussion. If you think that it is to risky for you don't support it.

    It's really that easy. Mark has decided to use Kickstarter over a big publisher, so he can publish and make the game he wants.

     

    Let me guess you still don't understand it?

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by laokoko

    Since I'm totally clueless on the financial aspect of mmorpg.  Can you explain me the option 2 and 3 example?

    Trion is a western publisher of Archage.  But they don't fund the game at all.  All they do is take a completed game, maybe do some translation and sell it to the western audience. 

    And isn't funcom a public trading company? They get most of their fund through the public people buying shares of the company. 

    So I'm not sure how the case of Camelot Unchain is related to those example.

    And I don't understand how company raise funds for their game.  Do they "loan" money, or do they find "partner/shareholder" for it.

    Since you sound like an expert in this topic, can you explain?

    Publishing is a seperate concept from funding.   However, a publishing deal can be a source of funding.

    There are two main parts to launching and running a game:  Developing and Publishing.  Developing is actually maing the game.  Publishing is making the game accessible to the public: sales, marketing, subscription management, often server hosting..that sort of thing.

    So ArcheAge is developed by XLGames, but the players gateway to the game will be through Trion.  They are forgoing some of the revenue because they dont want to have to deal with those aspects of the game in the west.

    With Funcom, they choose to make the games, and do all the other stuff as well.

    Now where funding and publishing can cross paths is if a publisher wants a bigger investment, they can help fund the project in return for a bigger cut of the revenue.  Im pretty sure this is what went down between Microsoft and Sigil.  And when Microsoft ended the deal, Sigil went to SoE as a publisher only.  And when Sigil ran out of money SoE bought them instead of funding them and Vanguard became an SoE game.

     

    And different companys use different techniques for funding.  

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Galadourn

     

    MJ has decided that he wants to be held accountable to the players who will play and support the game, 

     

    Kickstarter you are held accountable to no one.

     

    I'm not referring to legal accountability, I'm referring to design decisions.

    Still not seeing the accountability.  Its not like the money can be pulled back.

    you're still referring to the legal aspect. An investor in any investment can't pull his money back either, unless he either finds someone to sell his shares to OR has a specific such term in the shareholder's agreement contract.

    and you are just referring to some moral accountability, not any real accountability.   The players donate the money.  Once this happens, exactly how is Jacobs accountable to them?  In theory every developer is accountable to the players to keep the revenue coming, but we all know how that can turn out.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by tom_gore

     

    CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

     

     

    Because the investment is significantly smaller, DAoC has a great reputation, and PvP-centric MMOs done right can lead to success (EvE).  there is definitely a demand for a DAoC successor.

     

    Do you have any statistics or hard evidence to back that claim?

    WAR was supposed to be the "DAoC successor", but the suits that financed that game wanted to go for a more WoW-like experience with two factions, battlegrounds, lots of quests n' stuff. Alas, it failed.

    If there would "definitely" be a demand for a DAoC successor, the investors would have funded the development of such a game already. As it appears, your "definitely" is not that definite after all. Professional investors mostly care about the return of investment. They are not interested in "long term projects that might be slightly profitable". They aim to get the maximum ROI in the minimum period of time.

    That's why Mark is gauging real demand for a DAoC successor with KS. It's the ultimate poll, where you are asked to put your money where your mouth is. If he meets the goal, he has not only proven that the demand really exists, he has also got a bunch of money he does not have to get from an inevitably more ROI-centered source.

  • chase17tnchase17tn whitwell, TNPosts: 93Member
    Love when ppl who dont make videogames say things like its easy to get funded when they dont really know if it is or not.

    image
    made by nonny
    and
    image
    made by Braggi

    thanks both u guys

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Origin1983

    I don't understand the discussion. If you think that it is to risky for you don't support it.

    It's really that easy. Mark has decided to use Kickstarter over a big publisher, so he can publish and make the game he wants.

     

    Let me guess you still don't understand it?

    Why do people keep bringing up publisher?  

    funding =/= publisher

    funding =/= inability to self publish

    Trion got funding. they self published.  WHen Funcom was still a private company with Anarchy Online, they got funding, they self published.  Star Vault got funding, they self published Mortal Online.

  • chase17tnchase17tn whitwell, TNPosts: 93Member
    They wanna really get alot of players make it cross plateform xbox 360 and pc and that would work out in there favor we need mmorpg's on xbox and dont start saying 360 cant handle it mmorpgs have been on console since dreamcast and ps2 days.

    image
    made by nonny
    and
    image
    made by Braggi

    thanks both u guys

  • VoiidiinVoiidiin Barrow, AKPosts: 817Member

     After reading all the replies to this thread i found one thing nagging at the back of my mind... OP why do you care so much to basically reply to almost any detractor of your opinion ? If there is a reply and it is not inline with what you feel is how a game should be funded you have been on point telling us how we are wrong.

    I do not understand why you are against me spending my money supporting a games development through Kickstarter.

    Are you oppossed to CU being made?

    Do you have a personal axe to grind with Mark Jacobs ?

    Did Kickstarter do some egregious act against you personally ?

    I just do not see how players funding a game through an alternate form opposite to that of the more traditional way most games in the past have been funded, is a bad thing. Clearly Mark Jacobs has seen how past funding practices have affected the outcome of his games, and clearly he wants control of the game he is now going to create under his control and not some others who feel things need to dillute his original vision.

    So if you could please make me understand why you feel the overly strong reaction to others who differ from your opinion on how games should be funded, i would appreciate it a lot. 

    Lolipops !

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by tom_gore

     

    CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

     

     

    Because the investment is significantly smaller, DAoC has a great reputation, and PvP-centric MMOs done right can lead to success (EvE).  there is definitely a demand for a DAoC successor.

     

    Do you have any statistics or hard evidence to back that claim?

    WAR was supposed to be the "DAoC successor", but the suits that financed that game wanted to go for a more WoW-like experience with two factions, battlegrounds, lots of quests n' stuff. Alas, it failed.

    If there would "definitely" be a demand for a DAoC successor, the investors would have funded the development of such a game already. As it appears, your "definitely" is not that definite after all. Professional investors mostly care about the return of investment. They are not interested in "long term projects that might be slightly profitable". They aim to get the maximum ROI in the minimum period of time.

    That's why Mark is gauging real demand for a DAoC successor with KS. It's the ultimate poll, where you are asked to put your money where your mouth is. If he meets the goal, he has not only proven that the demand really exists, he has also got a bunch of money he does not have to get from an inevitably more ROI-centered source.

    Investors can be simple loans.  They don't care how well the game does, as long as they get their payments.  ROI is set regardless of game performance.

    WAR and GW2 show that there is demand.  Games like MO and DF show that funding for niche PvP games can be gotten, and full loot PvP is a niche of a niche.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Voiidiin

     Clearly Mark Jacobs has seen how past funding practices have affected the outcome of his games

    WAR's failure to become the #2 game on the market can be attributed to funding practices, maybe (but highly doubtful).  WAR's failure to maintain 250k+ subscribers (historically successful number of subscribers) is due to poor handling of the game, which certainly had potential.

    So if you could please make me understand why you feel the overly strong reaction to others who differ from your opinion on how games should be funded, i would appreciate it a lot. 

    Overly strong?  Its a discussion.  No one is being flamed and I have never told people not to donate.   Its really turned into a general discussion on MMORPG kickstarting and isnt about CU in particular.

  • VoiidiinVoiidiin Barrow, AKPosts: 817Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Voiidiin

     Clearly Mark Jacobs has seen how past funding practices have affected the outcome of his games

    WAR's failure to become the #2 game on the market can be attributed to funding practices, maybe (but highly doubtful).  WAR's failure to maintain 250k+ subscribers (historically successful number of subscribers) is due to poor handling of the game, which certainly had potential.

    So if you could please make me understand why you feel the overly strong reaction to others who differ from your opinion on how games should be funded, i would appreciate it a lot. 

    Overly strong?  Its a discussion.  No one is being flamed and I have never told people not to donate.   Its really turned into a general discussion on MMORPG kickstarting and isnt about CU in particular.

     

    Hmm, while i will take your word that, that is your primary intention, you really do come across as someone who is bitter about Kickstarter funding, and with your comment above about WAR, leads me to believe you might have a personal axe to grind with Mark Jacobs, i say this because this subject should have been talked about in the general discussion overall and not in the CU general discussion.

    Not sure why it was important enough to ask this in the CU general discussion, but it looks like a bias against Mark Jacobs and CU.

    Lolipops !

  • OmnifishOmnifish LondonPosts: 616Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Raagnarz
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

    It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

    But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

     

    Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

     

    Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

    First Mark is a big name in game development history, but his new company is not. He is putting money into CU if the KS goal is hit. He is using KS to judge player interest. Think of it as a straw poll. If the public proves they want the game 60% or more of the total money will come from Mark and his other investors. If KS goal doesn't get reached then it will not be made because the public had shown there isn't enough interest.

    Trion was able to get MAJOR funding for a startup company.  

    Its a backwards way of deciding to make a game or not.  Of course there is massive demand for a successor to DAoC.  He doesn't need kickstarter to determine that.  Its if people are willing (or gullibe enough) to donate some risk free, free capital to him.  If he cant get enough handouts, he wont make the game.

    Its a major red flag.  if he *really* wanted to make CU, he would make CU.

    I think this is a consequence of games development, or more specifically MMOs, being too much of a risk for investors so now players are expected to foot the bill.

    I don't know how many thousands/millions some groups lost on Hellgate: London, WAR, Tabula Rasa, APB, Auto Assault, the list goes on.  If I was managing a hedge fund I wouldn't touch MMO development with a bargepole, it's far too unpredictable for accountants to judge how it'll do.  More then likely you'll lose money, the days of the boom investmentwise in this market are over.

    Five years ago, Jacobs probably could get the funding he needed from private sources.  Nowadays people like him are just looking for new backers: us.  

    I'm not a fan of Kickstarter, it exploits fan willingness to believe and is too much of a risk with little guarantee.  As a gamer I like to buy and play games, not be involved in the financing as well. Funding for a project works on the principle of key stage target meeting and a whole host of other liabilities.  There's none of this with just handing money over to hope someone develops their ideas.  

     I've seen investment portfolios presentations before and boy if you think your disapointed when your next big MMO doesn't live up to your standards, you should see the anger from those suckers who dumped millions into funding it.

    This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

  • Marcus-Marcus- chepachet, RIPosts: 969Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by tom_gore

     

    CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

     

     

    Because the investment is significantly smaller, DAoC has a great reputation, and PvP-centric MMOs done right can lead to success (EvE).  there is definitely a demand for a DAoC successor.

     

    Do you have any statistics or hard evidence to back that claim?

    WAR was supposed to be the "DAoC successor", but the suits that financed that game wanted to go for a more WoW-like experience with two factions, battlegrounds, lots of quests n' stuff. Alas, it failed.

    If there would "definitely" be a demand for a DAoC successor, the investors would have funded the development of such a game already. As it appears, your "definitely" is not that definite after all. Professional investors mostly care about the return of investment. They are not interested in "long term projects that might be slightly profitable". They aim to get the maximum ROI in the minimum period of time.

    That's why Mark is gauging real demand for a DAoC successor with KS. It's the ultimate poll, where you are asked to put your money where your mouth is. If he meets the goal, he has not only proven that the demand really exists, he has also got a bunch of money he does not have to get from an inevitably more ROI-centered source.

    Investors can be simple loans.  They don't care how well the game does, as long as they get their payments.  ROI is set regardless of game performance.

    WAR and GW2 show that there is demand.  Games like MO and DF show that funding for niche PvP games can be gotten, and full loot PvP is a niche of a niche.

     Strangiato, i'd like you to meet the state of Rhode island....

  • EyrothathEyrothath Phoenix, AZPosts: 198Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by CluckingChicken

    Wanna know the wonderful secret about Kickstarter?

     

    If it's something you don't support... are you still with me on this?

     

    ...

     

    You don't have to support it!

     

    Golly gee! Who could've imagined?

     

    I would take Kickstarter over having a publisher ANY day. You know that feeling when you see a really interesting MMO in development, only to see EA is publishing it? It's akin to the feeling you get when drowning in a pool of someone's vomit. Or getting attacked by a swarm of bees. ...Bees that are covered in someone's vomit.

    Publisher =/= financial backing.  Trion is the publisher of ArcheAge, but they havent funded devleopment.  I dont think EA currently publishes any MMORPGs it doesnt own.  It owns Mythic, Origin and Bioware.  

    The Secret World

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