Originally posted by Bigmac1910 It just ruins the immersion for me, that is all. I'm constantly being told to buy something from the real money store from level 1, I'm sorry how the heck am I supposed to know whether to invest or not at level one. I'd rather pay a subscription fee, and I don't have to think about real money. That is why I'm in this world to begin with, to forget real life for a limited amount of time.
Which game you are talking about?
I have played many F2P MMOs (STO, DCUO, DDO ....) and none does that. In particularly, there is no frequent pop-up ads which "constantly being told" implies.
The only game I'm being constantly reminded about that is swtor, quest rewards (almost all of them) say with f2p you get this, with sub you get this...
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
2. Free to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit LoTRO. When raid buffs and stat tomes came out, it created a rift between the players. If you wanted to take on the harder and more rewarding dungeons or raids, you needed buffs. It's acceptable to have buffs that increase leveling of something, cosmetics, or seasonal items. It is completely unacceptable to sell anything that puts other players ahead or renders players unable to play paid content. Furthermore, no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require money unlock. Once again, LoTRO requires free players to pay for horse travel. SWTOR charged for skill bars.
There are some games that have handled F2P well, like League of Legends. However, I think most F2P MMOs are not worth playing.
Flip side.
Pay to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit WoW. When dungeons started dropping tiered gear, it created a rift between the players. if you wanted to take on the hard and more rewarding dungeons or raides, you needed to be geared with previous raids gear drops. It is completely unacceptable to require a person to have to raid for countless hours to gain gear to be able to raid again for countless hours. no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require you to play a lot of time just so you can play a lot of time for a little content. Once again, WoW requires paying players to play on end, just to be able to continue playing.
There are some games that have handled P2P well, like Asherons Call. However, I think most P2P MMOs are not worth paying for.
Once again, I have yet to see any real argument against F2P that isnt either a double standard or complete BS based on mis-information or not knowing a thing about it at all.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar The only game I'm being constantly reminded about that is swtor, quest rewards (almost all of them) say with f2p you get this, with sub you get this...
That sounds horrible. No wonder i am not playing this game.
Free 2 Play blurs the distinction between achievers and purchasers.
I have a cool mount in Runes of Magic.
Did I do some long quest chain? No.
Did my character slay some mega-boss? No.
Did I grind reputation for hours? No.
How did I get it? Credit card.
See the blur? Am I an achiever for having my mount?
If you're going to try to point out a flaw of F2P, it's best to use any example other than mounts.
First off, I don't consider it a flaw. It is a characteristic. Nobody cares if I like something or not, especially not publishers working to make a buck. Certainly my opinion isn't enough to make a design feature a "flaw", even if it's not something I think fits with how I understand MMORPG gameplay (effort yields achievement which in turn yields convenience).
On a related note, I feel the same way about purchased mounts in WoW even though it's not F2P. They used to be achievement (epic Warlock mount was a huge fight, so was the epic for Paladins), but Blizzard opted for a new revenue stream blurring the achievers from the purchasers.
Where is the effort in buying gear? How can having purchased gear be considered an achievement without effort?
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
On a related note, I feel the same way about purchased mounts in WoW even though it's not F2P. They used to be achievement (epic Warlock mount was a huge fight, so was the epic for Paladins), but Blizzard opted for a new revenue stream blurring the achievers from the purchasers.
Where is the effort in buying gear? How can having purchased gear be considered an achievement without effort?
You have to make the money in the first place. That costs effort (except for kids who get money from parents, of course).
Secondly, in WOW, you can tell which mount is bought, and which one is an in-game achievement. I doubt people got confused over it.
Lastly, we are talking about video games here. There is no real achievement. Killing some monster 1000 times is not a true achievement. It is at best an illusion. No better than buying some good feelings. You did not solve a real problem. You kill a monster because the devs set it up to let you do so.
if I say "eve" ill you say "no storage can ever be infinite due to the definition of infinity" ?
has anyone ever filled one single Station Container in eve? I mean you can have as many of them as you want but has anyone ever filled ONE of them ?
Good point. I don't even want to think about the thousands upon thousands of modules, weapons, armor and endless other things that I picked up over almost six years of playing. Eve has the largest storage of any game, I've ever played.
I wish some other games (no matter what the business model) had something like that.
Originally posted by 123443211234 Because f2p games tend to revolve around ways the devs can extract more money out of you rather than just focusing on creating a good game.
Yeah, there never been P2P MMOs like that...
But really, the bad thing with F2P games is that they tend to make devs that are already greedy greedier. Some of them charge a huge amount far beyond what a monthly fee would cost for people to play the game after the initial noob game. If you want a good example, look on EQ2.
F2P is in itself not bad as long as the developer sell enough stuff to earn money but not so much that you always have to buy to be able to play the game as intended.
Freemium on the other hand is usually a rip off. To get anywhere you more or less both have to pay a monthly fee and buy stuff. Not always but usually (DDO seems pretty fair to me for example).
I can agree with that. I cant fault a developer for being greedy as long as I have the option to not play the game. What I find interesting is most of the games I felt had poor cash shop implementations I tended not to like playing anyway. Perhaps coincidence that they go hand in hand but it works for me.
I just started DDO. Still getting used to not getting loot from mobs. But I cant lie I love the stats and hardcore AD&D 3.5 rule set. I say I won't play this anymore then I log in again. Level 2 and climbing :-)
I look at freemium as a try-n-buy. If the freemium has me playing for an extended period of time I justify the cost of the sub. I dont see that as a rip-off. But I've been known to sub for one month then stop. It all comes down to what is keeping my interest at the time.
Originally posted by snapfusion ... So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible...
This
Originally posted by Robokapp ...personally I have a very difficult time with the simple concept of ME giving things to MY CHARACTER. Shouldn't we be one and the same from a RP standpoint ? It's not my main issue, it's a very minor one in fact but ... can you relate to your character when at its core the game presents "it" as different than 'you' ?
/Signed
Originally posted by Gruug ...What is totally illogical is to buy into the concept of "f2p" in the first place. SOMEONE has to pay in order to let one person to even attempt to play one of those "f2p" games for free. The fact that anyone is paying means that the game IS NOT free. The whole use of the term "free" in f2p is invalid.
QFT
Originally posted by Skuall IMO:
f2p = how to nickel and dime your playerbase in order to gain profit .
p2p = how to create a fun game and keep content going on in order to keep subs (to gain profit)
Yes
Originally posted by LauraFrost Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" ... you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.
What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword.
But after the gamification and simplification and pussification of gaming since .... 8 years ago. A new generation of players would never understand such argument but in the end I go back to this simple philosophy. Some people want this game and others wants a DIFFERENT game... there's nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But the problem is I don't get to play the game I want, it's always the OTHER game. Hence, why we come here to complain.
Well said
Deciding where to spend my $ on a game is not fun for me. I'd like a set fee per month. Let the game be the part that needs figuring out, not the cash shop.
So F2P as a model is sound, you just PREFER the option of someone telling you what you can do (even if you wont do some of it). I can see that.
I'm the opposite. I dont need someone to tell me what I get. I can decide for myself and much PREFER to select the options I would like to use.
In my opinion nothing is wrong with it. There are plenty of games that went the correct way and made it completely free and had optional things to purchase in the cash shop. Aion, Lineage 2, and Tera are perfect examples of free to play done correctly. Then there are the correct buy to play options too like Guild Wars 1 and 2, and TSW.
...because I'm not seeing it. Open to all arguments but please try to stay logical and back them up.
Looking to see if this is more a personal choice (opinion) or actually a bonafide benefit (or constraint) to the player.
Whats your view?
Go!
Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" (whether the cash-shop is in the game client which is bad, or out of the game client doesn't matter) you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.
What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword.
But after the gamification and simplification and pussification of gaming since .... 8 years ago. A new generation of players would never understand such argument but in the end I go back to this simple philosophy. Some people want this game and others wants a DIFFERENT game... there's nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But the problem is I don't get to play the game I want, it's always the OTHER game. Hence, why we come here to complain.
I agree with your points, but dont see how they are related to F2P (specifically). For example most of the MMOs released today (across all models) exihibit the lack of lore and world-belonging feeling. I would love to see a game bring this back.
but in terms of F2P specifically how do you know if someone else bought that blue sword in the cash shop? Second why does it bother you so much what another random player does? Its like we are exacting what we want on a game system that is meant to be shared across multiple views. I cant see how you could 'stop' that thus would refrain from seeing it as an issue.
For example, I would more be like "Wow, thats a wierd sword" ... shrug it off and go about my worldy business I planned for myself that day.
Come on OP you must know players have a lot of negative views about F2P and quite rightly, so this thread is a bit of a troll.
The hybrid finance systems now in place have blured the issue. Many times now when people talk about F2P they are talking about a game that has a subcription.
If you are going to compare like for like you will need to find a subsription only game and compare to a MMO with no sub what so ever. Not easy to do.
Free to play creates a community of misfits, whome have no investment in their character...
Thus, each person within that gameworld has no responsibility to his own (worthless) character.. & simply a transient.
Why would anyone ever want to play a free game. These the same people who want to eat a $5 pizza..? They like cheap stuff, because they are not old enough to have an income and much easier to play a free game, than it is to try and convince Mommy to pay $14/month.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
posted this on another thread and though it was a good expression of how i truly fill about free to play
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by gessekai332 so you dont think paying 50 bucks once is worth 3 months of unlimited playtime for a personal hobby. thats really, really funny. have fun dealing with real world expenses when you get older, kid.
Your argument only applies if in fact you play fro 3 months or more and enjoy it. I played for less than threee hours and hated it. Therefore for me it was not worth it. There are others with similar experiences of GW2. At this level of disappointment in a product there is no difference between the B2P and subscription model as most subscription games have a box price that includes 30 days. As I would not have been a subscriber to this game the loss is the same.
question if this where a single player game, how would this be any diffrent.
or do you want free to play games and thats the end of it.
because that sounds more like people not being willing to spend money for something but still wanting it.
and that is the crux of what F2P is in the end no matter what anyone says (and im sure they will)
people wanting to play games for free and not haveing to ever pay for it, while those of us that are willing to pay for a game so its has high quality watch a genra we love turned into a quick cash scam
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
2. Free to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit LoTRO. When raid buffs and stat tomes came out, it created a rift between the players. If you wanted to take on the harder and more rewarding dungeons or raids, you needed buffs. It's acceptable to have buffs that increase leveling of something, cosmetics, or seasonal items. It is completely unacceptable to sell anything that puts other players ahead or renders players unable to play paid content. Furthermore, no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require money unlock. Once again, LoTRO requires free players to pay for horse travel. SWTOR charged for skill bars.
Why is that an issue? All online games have haves & have-nots. You don't belong to the ultra hard core raid guild, you don't get the best gear. You don't play 24/7, you have less gold than the guy who does.
The difference is that free to play requires you to pay for those differences. Of course there will always a difference between those who are hardcore and those who are not. That's not the issue. The issue is a fundamental game system is dependent on how much you spend in a cash shop and you are constantly reminded about this cash shop on every screen. It's becomes less of a game and more of an advertising medium.
2. Free to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit LoTRO. When raid buffs and stat tomes came out, it created a rift between the players. If you wanted to take on the harder and more rewarding dungeons or raids, you needed buffs. It's acceptable to have buffs that increase leveling of something, cosmetics, or seasonal items. It is completely unacceptable to sell anything that puts other players ahead or renders players unable to play paid content. Furthermore, no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require money unlock. Once again, LoTRO requires free players to pay for horse travel. SWTOR charged for skill bars.
There are some games that have handled F2P well, like League of Legends. However, I think most F2P MMOs are not worth playing.
Flip side.
Pay to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit WoW. When dungeons started dropping tiered gear, it created a rift between the players. if you wanted to take on the hard and more rewarding dungeons or raides, you needed to be geared with previous raids gear drops. It is completely unacceptable to require a person to have to raid for countless hours to gain gear to be able to raid again for countless hours. no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require you to play a lot of time just so you can play a lot of time for a little content. Once again, WoW requires paying players to play on end, just to be able to continue playing.
There are some games that have handled P2P well, like Asherons Call. However, I think most P2P MMOs are not worth paying for.
Once again, I have yet to see any real argument against F2P that isnt either a double standard or complete BS based on mis-information or not knowing a thing about it at all.
I don't see it as a double standard. Free to play manipulates the opportunity cost of players' time. Raiding models have nothing to do with pricing models in pay to play. That's the difference. I pay my monthly fee, I can raid or not. I can play enough to have that gear or not. I've paid upfront. However, in free to play this is not the case. I come into the game, expecting to be able to play it and instead hit wall after wall. And you're right, most P2P mmos are not worth paying for. I'd argue most MMOs are not worth paying for in general.
some f2p games push you to spend too much at Item Shop, once you are hooked. some just never offer you enough security nor good content, can be dull, outdated and full of bugs. some community is just repulsing.
so IMO read about game b4 pick it up.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises. Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
This. Plus nothing in life is free. Rather than charging a fair price, F2P games use deception and trickery to prod you to keep reaching for your wallet. All F2P games that I know of offer character advancement for a fee (xp potions). Meaning all F2P games are P2W. I will not ever download a F2P game.
You need to learn the difference between pay to win and pay for convience.
This. Plus nothing in life is free. Rather than charging a fair price, F2P games use deception and trickery to prod you to keep reaching for your wallet. All F2P games that I know of offer character advancement for a fee (xp potions). Meaning all F2P games are P2W. I will not ever download a F2P game.
You need to learn the difference between pay to win and pay for convience.
Convience doesn't have anyting to do with P2W. P2W is a business model that is based on monetizing game mechanics. This is what all cash shop based games do. Some don't appear to be as "unfair" as other games, but if that was the basis for defining a game as P2W it would be highly opinionated. After all, one person's idea of convience is another person's unfair advantage.
I agree, some view xp potions as P2W even though the person still has to play the game for the gain. I personally feel "P2W" is when direct items can be bought that are powerful but that's just me. For instance I don't see EQ2 as P2W because what is offered are ways to earn it yourself, not just handing it to you.
I think the biggest disparagement is with PvP games. In most PvE situations it's just a matter of time before you get what you want.
With a p2p the developers goal is to keep you subbed, only way to do that is to add stuff that keeps you playing.
With a F2P, developers goal is to get free player paying, and hit those who do pay for as much as possible.
All F2P games are more expensive in the long run than a p2p game. Yeah i know a lot of kids like not paying a dime, but we all know what happens after a while of not paying in these games...the built in fustrations that the cash shop alleviates becomes a pain...paying players have more advantages in some way and its a pain...the game just becomes a pain in the ass to play for free.
As with every thread of this type people use buy to play or pay per content as their smoking gun on f2p being better...those are not free to play...they just have a big trial.
Comments
Which game you are talking about?
I have played many F2P MMOs (STO, DCUO, DDO ....) and none does that. In particularly, there is no frequent pop-up ads which "constantly being told" implies.
Flip side.
Pay to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit WoW. When dungeons started dropping tiered gear, it created a rift between the players. if you wanted to take on the hard and more rewarding dungeons or raides, you needed to be geared with previous raids gear drops. It is completely unacceptable to require a person to have to raid for countless hours to gain gear to be able to raid again for countless hours. no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require you to play a lot of time just so you can play a lot of time for a little content. Once again, WoW requires paying players to play on end, just to be able to continue playing.
There are some games that have handled P2P well, like Asherons Call. However, I think most P2P MMOs are not worth paying for.
Once again, I have yet to see any real argument against F2P that isnt either a double standard or complete BS based on mis-information or not knowing a thing about it at all.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
That sounds horrible. No wonder i am not playing this game.
First off, I don't consider it a flaw. It is a characteristic. Nobody cares if I like something or not, especially not publishers working to make a buck. Certainly my opinion isn't enough to make a design feature a "flaw", even if it's not something I think fits with how I understand MMORPG gameplay (effort yields achievement which in turn yields convenience).
On a related note, I feel the same way about purchased mounts in WoW even though it's not F2P. They used to be achievement (epic Warlock mount was a huge fight, so was the epic for Paladins), but Blizzard opted for a new revenue stream blurring the achievers from the purchasers.
Where is the effort in buying gear? How can having purchased gear be considered an achievement without effort?
You have to make the money in the first place. That costs effort (except for kids who get money from parents, of course).
Secondly, in WOW, you can tell which mount is bought, and which one is an in-game achievement. I doubt people got confused over it.
Lastly, we are talking about video games here. There is no real achievement. Killing some monster 1000 times is not a true achievement. It is at best an illusion. No better than buying some good feelings. You did not solve a real problem. You kill a monster because the devs set it up to let you do so.
Good point. I don't even want to think about the thousands upon thousands of modules, weapons, armor and endless other things that I picked up over almost six years of playing. Eve has the largest storage of any game, I've ever played.
I wish some other games (no matter what the business model) had something like that.
I can agree with that. I cant fault a developer for being greedy as long as I have the option to not play the game. What I find interesting is most of the games I felt had poor cash shop implementations I tended not to like playing anyway. Perhaps coincidence that they go hand in hand but it works for me.
I just started DDO. Still getting used to not getting loot from mobs. But I cant lie I love the stats and hardcore AD&D 3.5 rule set. I say I won't play this anymore then I log in again. Level 2 and climbing :-)
I look at freemium as a try-n-buy. If the freemium has me playing for an extended period of time I justify the cost of the sub. I dont see that as a rip-off. But I've been known to sub for one month then stop. It all comes down to what is keeping my interest at the time.
So F2P as a model is sound, you just PREFER the option of someone telling you what you can do (even if you wont do some of it). I can see that.
I'm the opposite. I dont need someone to tell me what I get. I can decide for myself and much PREFER to select the options I would like to use.
To each his own...
I agree with your points, but dont see how they are related to F2P (specifically). For example most of the MMOs released today (across all models) exihibit the lack of lore and world-belonging feeling. I would love to see a game bring this back.
but in terms of F2P specifically how do you know if someone else bought that blue sword in the cash shop? Second why does it bother you so much what another random player does? Its like we are exacting what we want on a game system that is meant to be shared across multiple views. I cant see how you could 'stop' that thus would refrain from seeing it as an issue.
For example, I would more be like "Wow, thats a wierd sword" ... shrug it off and go about my worldy business I planned for myself that day.
YMMV of course ;-)
There is nothing wrong with F2P "Now"...
Other people that has been on this site as long as i have tho know "Back then" F2P=asian trash mmo
"Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
^MMORPG.com
didnt read the whole thing i now the argument by now so im saying this for myself not anyone else
I WANT QUALITY IN THE CORE GAME ITSELF NOT PRETTY SHINIES IN A MARKET
if i got to give up a extra beer a month fine, its better then getting a pile of crap to pay tons for instead of
Solid Servers
Good GMs
regular bug fixes
regular updates
actual well made games
and several other things
basicly you can say F2P is the future all you want i say they dont make them like they used to
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Come on OP you must know players have a lot of negative views about F2P and quite rightly, so this thread is a bit of a troll.
The hybrid finance systems now in place have blured the issue. Many times now when people talk about F2P they are talking about a game that has a subcription.
If you are going to compare like for like you will need to find a subsription only game and compare to a MMO with no sub what so ever. Not easy to do.
Thus, each person within that gameworld has no responsibility to his own (worthless) character.. & simply a transient.
Why would anyone ever want to play a free game. These the same people who want to eat a $5 pizza..? They like cheap stuff, because they are not old enough to have an income and much easier to play a free game, than it is to try and convince Mommy to pay $14/month.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
posted this on another thread and though it was a good expression of how i truly fill about free to play
question if this where a single player game, how would this be any diffrent.
or do you want free to play games and thats the end of it.
because that sounds more like people not being willing to spend money for something but still wanting it.
and that is the crux of what F2P is in the end no matter what anyone says (and im sure they will)
people wanting to play games for free and not haveing to ever pay for it, while those of us that are willing to pay for a game so its has high quality watch a genra we love turned into a quick cash scam
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
The difference is that free to play requires you to pay for those differences. Of course there will always a difference between those who are hardcore and those who are not. That's not the issue. The issue is a fundamental game system is dependent on how much you spend in a cash shop and you are constantly reminded about this cash shop on every screen. It's becomes less of a game and more of an advertising medium.
I don't see it as a double standard. Free to play manipulates the opportunity cost of players' time. Raiding models have nothing to do with pricing models in pay to play. That's the difference. I pay my monthly fee, I can raid or not. I can play enough to have that gear or not. I've paid upfront. However, in free to play this is not the case. I come into the game, expecting to be able to play it and instead hit wall after wall. And you're right, most P2P mmos are not worth paying for. I'd argue most MMOs are not worth paying for in general.
nothing wrong if you choose carefully.
some f2p games push you to spend too much at Item Shop, once you are hooked.
some just never offer you enough security nor good content, can be dull, outdated and full of bugs.
some community is just repulsing.
so IMO read about game b4 pick it up.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
You need to learn the difference between pay to win and pay for convience.
Convience doesn't have anyting to do with P2W. P2W is a business model that is based on monetizing game mechanics. This is what all cash shop based games do. Some don't appear to be as "unfair" as other games, but if that was the basis for defining a game as P2W it would be highly opinionated. After all, one person's idea of convience is another person's unfair advantage.
I think the biggest disparagement is with PvP games. In most PvE situations it's just a matter of time before you get what you want.
Well its all with the development.
With a p2p the developers goal is to keep you subbed, only way to do that is to add stuff that keeps you playing.
With a F2P, developers goal is to get free player paying, and hit those who do pay for as much as possible.
All F2P games are more expensive in the long run than a p2p game. Yeah i know a lot of kids like not paying a dime, but we all know what happens after a while of not paying in these games...the built in fustrations that the cash shop alleviates becomes a pain...paying players have more advantages in some way and its a pain...the game just becomes a pain in the ass to play for free.
As with every thread of this type people use buy to play or pay per content as their smoking gun on f2p being better...those are not free to play...they just have a big trial.
"Free to play creates a community of misfits, whome have no investment in their character..."
There lies the issue for a F2P MMO's community. They don't have one.