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Why kickstarter?

strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common

A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

 

Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

 

Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

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Comments

  • CluckingChickenCluckingChicken Calgary, ABPosts: 54Member

    Wanna know the wonderful secret about Kickstarter?

     

    If it's something you don't support... are you still with me on this?

     

    ...

     

    You don't have to support it!

     

    Golly gee! Who could've imagined?

     

    I would take Kickstarter over having a publisher ANY day. You know that feeling when you see a really interesting MMO in development, only to see EA is publishing it? It's akin to the feeling you get when drowning in a pool of someone's vomit. Or getting attacked by a swarm of bees. ...Bees that are covered in someone's vomit.

  • RaagnarzRaagnarz North Las Vegas, NVPosts: 268Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

    It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

    But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

     

    Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

     

    Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

    First Mark is a big name in game development history, but his new company is not. He is putting money into CU if the KS goal is hit. He is using KS to judge player interest. Think of it as a straw poll. If the public proves they want the game 60% or more of the total money will come from Mark and his other investors. If KS goal doesn't get reached then it will not be made because the public had shown there isn't enough interest.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Raagnarz
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

    It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

    But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

     

    Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

     

    Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

    First Mark is a big name in game development history, but his new company is not. He is putting money into CU if the KS goal is hit. He is using KS to judge player interest. Think of it as a straw poll. If the public proves they want the game 60% or more of the total money will come from Mark and his other investors. If KS goal doesn't get reached then it will not be made because the public had shown there isn't enough interest.

    Trion was able to get MAJOR funding for a startup company.  

    Its a backwards way of deciding to make a game or not.  Of course there is massive demand for a successor to DAoC.  He doesn't need kickstarter to determine that.  Its if people are willing (or gullibe enough) to donate some risk free, free capital to him.  If he cant get enough handouts, he wont make the game.

    Its a major red flag.  if he *really* wanted to make CU, he would make CU.

  • JayFiveAliveJayFiveAlive Arvada, COPosts: 534Member Uncommon

    The real question here is why not use Kickstarter... easy access to some extra funds that will hopefully equate to a more polished game or more features, heck it even means stimulating the economy possibly with addional hires to get the job done right or better.

     

    And as mentioned already... you have a choice not to support it.

     

    It's a win win!

  • RaagnarzRaagnarz North Las Vegas, NVPosts: 268Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Raagnarz
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

    It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

    But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

     

    Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

     

    Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

    First Mark is a big name in game development history, but his new company is not. He is putting money into CU if the KS goal is hit. He is using KS to judge player interest. Think of it as a straw poll. If the public proves they want the game 60% or more of the total money will come from Mark and his other investors. If KS goal doesn't get reached then it will not be made because the public had shown there isn't enough interest.

    Trion was able to get MAJOR funding for a startup company.  

    Its a backwards way of deciding to make a game or not.  Of course there is massive demand for a successor to DAoC.  He doesn't need kickstarter to determine that.  Its if people are willing (or gullibe enough) to donate some risk free, free capital to him.  If he cant get enough handouts, he wont make the game.

    Its a major red flag.  if he *really* wanted to make CU, he would make CU.

    And by getting major investment from outside sources, you are then at the mercy of said outside sources. KS is a crowdfunding source of investment where you don't have to answer to their every whim. You tell them the plan beforehand and if they believe in your vision they support. What Mark is describing would be risky, to say the least, to the average publisher/investor. The numbers he would be happy to have are a mere fraction of what a major publisher/investor would want to hear when approached for investment. When TRION got funded they sold the game as a WOW clone with some new bells and whistles.

     

    CU will be anything but a wow clone and therefor way more risky for investors/publishers. Because of that, if they didn't laugh at the 30-50k playerbase goal,  they would probably want a lot more control.

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member

    Trion also made a WoW clone something that for some reason investors like to get behind, the game was made to be favourable to a vast array of players to bring in alrge amounts of cash, CU isnt that game or with those games, its a game been made to please what could only be a handful of die-hard MMORPG PvP players and it will isolate players with some of its features, a game like rift with a major investor backing would not do.

    I know what your thinking, why would investors only fund a game thats exactly the same as a game already out there and try to get in on an already competitive market...well i dont know...logic tells me that maybe if you take a risk and attempt to capitalise on an untouched market...you might get better results...

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • fat_taddlerfat_taddler Wanaque, NJPosts: 286Member

    Until I actually see a Kickstarter title come to fruition, I will remain very skeptical of this type of business funding. 

    As others have stated, if you have a solid concept and the expertise to execute your ideas, it's not very difficult to secure private funding. 

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by CluckingChicken

    Wanna know the wonderful secret about Kickstarter?

     

    If it's something you don't support... are you still with me on this?

     

    ...

     

    You don't have to support it!

     

    Golly gee! Who could've imagined?

     

    I would take Kickstarter over having a publisher ANY day. You know that feeling when you see a really interesting MMO in development, only to see EA is publishing it? It's akin to the feeling you get when drowning in a pool of someone's vomit. Or getting attacked by a swarm of bees. ...Bees that are covered in someone's vomit.

    Publisher =/= financial backing.  Trion is the publisher of ArcheAge, but they havent funded devleopment.  I dont think EA currently publishes any MMORPGs it doesnt own.  It owns Mythic, Origin and Bioware.  

  • jacklojacklo BlackpoolPosts: 570Member

    It wouldn't surprise if investors stipulate going through the Kickstarter process.

    They get a feel for the interest in a project and get free capital investment. Where's the downside other than ego?

  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonPosts: 845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

    It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

    But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

    Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

    Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

    Of course it adds up.

    What it adds up to is his inablity to raise venture capital for this proposal.  The capital market, which is more than a little tight at the moment, did not like the ratio between risk and gain.  They do not expect the game to make a huge amount of profit and see some risk (maybe a little maybe a lot) of loosing money on the deal.  Result not enough investors.

    Therefore kickstarter or nothing.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Raagnarz

    And by getting major investment from outside sources, you are then at the mercy of said outside sources. KS is a crowdfunding source of investment where you don't have to answer to their every whim. You tell them the plan beforehand and if they believe in your vision they support. What Mark is describing would be risky, to say the least, to the average publisher/investor. 

    This isnt necessarily true.  Once you get the funding, you can make the game how you want it.  Its securing the funding that could be tricky, but Mark isnt looking to make a big budget game.  Big name + indemand concept + small investment relative to other MMOs.

    I highly doubt the canadian pension fund that gave Trion 80 million is having a hands on say in the development of Defiance.  Trion is only obligated to pay them back.

     

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by craftseeker
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

    It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

    But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

    Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

    Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

    Of course it adds up.

    What it adds up to is his inablity to raise venture capital for this proposal.  The capital market, which is more than a little tight at the moment, did not like the ratio between risk and gain.  They do not expect the game to make a huge amount of profit and see some risk (maybe a little maybe a lot) of loosing money on the deal.  Result not enough investors.

    Therefore kickstarter or nothing.

    So investors dont have confidence in Mark.  Why should consumers then?

    If he isnt competent to secure funding for a project like this, he almost certainly isnt competent enough to run a team to develop this.

  • kartoolkartool Hamilton, ONPosts: 472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

    It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

    But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

     

    Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

     

    Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

    Kickstarter is pretty much the same thing as pre-ordering these days. It also means that someone can make the game they want to make instead of having some suits who don't understand games say "Make it more like WoW!"

  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonPosts: 845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Raagnarz

    And by getting major investment from outside sources, you are then at the mercy of said outside sources. KS is a crowdfunding source of investment where you don't have to answer to their every whim. You tell them the plan beforehand and if they believe in your vision they support. What Mark is describing would be risky, to say the least, to the average publisher/investor. 

    This isnt necessarily true.  Once you get the funding, you can make the game how you want it.  Its securing the funding that could be tricky, but Mark isnt looking to make a big budget game.  Big name + indemand concept + small investment relative to other MMOs.

    I highly doubt the canadian pension fund that gave Trion 80 million is having a hands on say in the development of Defiance.  Trion is only obligated to pay them back.

    They may not have a "hands on say in the development" but if you pitch a FPS online shooter and deliver Farmville expect litagation if it does not pay off big.   As to "pay them back", not only the amount they put in but a reasonble return on the funds invested.  Also the higher the risk the bigger the premium expected.

    Finally any investor will expect regular reports on progress, financial documents and forecasts.  Also they would expect to see what was being developed.   If they really did not like what the developer showed them they could pull the plug on finance and perhaps even apply to have an adminstrator appointed to run the company.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by kartool

    Kickstarter is pretty much the same thing as pre-ordering these days. It also means that someone can make the game they want to make instead of having some suits who don't understand games say "Make it more like WoW!"

    Except that if you preorder a game that doesnt launch, you get your money back.

    And EvE was able to secure private funding and were able to make the game they wanted to make.  

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by craftseeker
       As to "pay them back", not only the amount they put in but a reasonble return on the funds invested.  Also the higher the risk the bigger the premium expected.

     

    I would be significantly more inclined to do public funding if it was public investing.

    Kickstarter is like panhandling.  Cant get people to invest?  Ask for handouts.  That you aren't going to pay back.  And if you fail, oh well.

    And the big difference with MMORPGs is the investment required to make them is signifcant, so much more so than a normal low budget game.  EvE was able to make do with 5 million, but that was a perfect storm type of scenario in a game that required significantly less art/animation assets than a game like CU would need.  Im thinking you would need at least 10-15 million for an extreme low budget looking fantasy MMORPG, complete with infrastructure to support it's launch.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,940Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    Originally posted by craftseeker
       As to "pay them back", not only the amount they put in but a reasonble return on the funds invested.  Also the higher the risk the bigger the premium expected.

     

    I would be significantly more inclined to do public funding if it was public investing.

    Kickstarter is like panhandling.  Cant get people to invest?  Ask for handouts.  That you aren't going to pay back.  And if you fail, oh well.

    And the big difference with MMORPGs is the investment required to make them is signifcant, so much more so than a normal low budget game.  EvE was able to make do with 5 million, but that was a perfect storm type of scenario in a game that required significantly less art/animation assets than a game like CU would need.  Im thinking you would need at least 10-15 million for an extreme low budget looking fantasy MMORPG, complete with infrastructure to support it's launch.

     

    This. I have very serious doubts about any MMO being funded through KS and being: 1.Good and 2. Actually released. For SPGs and some of the other things on there, I have no doubt believing they will come out well (I backed Wasteland 2 myself). But MMOs are something different entirely: they REQUIRE at least 10X the amount raised by the largest KS to come out decent. And you can't even make a "cheap" MMO for that these days and not get DFUW or MO. So, KS: fine for some things, for MMOs, no. And again, when the game doesn't come out, the developer is not on the hook for anything. Free money from foo... umm... sucke.... err... "fans"... yeah, let's go with that.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    I actually look at it the opposite way.  Those game studio are taking advantage of investors, taking alot of risk, and when the game fail, they don't care.

    On the other hand the guy is taking advantage of public fund + his own fund to make a game.  At least his using "some" of his own money. 

    I like this idea, because first of all he is taking risk since he is using some of his own money.  But I do understand why he would do it, since any money he make will be into his own parket so he's willing to take the risk.

  • SirDerpSirDerp Lake Jackson, TXPosts: 72Member

    I think this sounds really shoddy... I've never really agreed with kickstarter. Sure, it's great for people with a passion for something to get a little funding, but from my experience, most things that come from it aren't very good. If you have a solid plan for a solid game, you should be able to get private investors and be able to go through all the "formal" processes of business. When you ask for money from random people all I see is some dude in a basement crunching out bugged code, pocketing the cash and being like, "Hey, look what I did!"

     

    In other words... It seems unprofessional.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by laokoko

    I actually look at it the opposite way.  Those game studio are taking advantage of investors, taking alot of risk, and when the game fail, they don't care.

     

    So you dont think Curt Schilling cares that his game failed?  

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by laokoko
    I actually look at it the opposite way.  Those game studio are taking advantage of investors, taking alot of risk, and when the game fail, they don't care.On the other hand the guy is taking advantage of public fund + his own fund to make a game.  At least his using "some" of his own money. I like this idea, because first of all he is taking risk since he is using some of his own money.  But I do understand why he would do it, since any money he make will be into his own parket so he's willing to take the risk.

    except they still have to pay that money back.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by skyexile

     


    Originally posted by laokoko
    I actually look at it the opposite way.  Those game studio are taking advantage of investors, taking alot of risk, and when the game fail, they don't care.

     

    On the other hand the guy is taking advantage of public fund + his own fund to make a game.  At least his using "some" of his own money. 

    I like this idea, because first of all he is taking risk since he is using some of his own money.  But I do understand why he would do it, since any money he make will be into his own parket so he's willing to take the risk.

     


     

    except they still have to pay that money back.

    Since you two are correcting me, I must have no idea and is wrong.

    I always thought "most" game studio get funds through investor/shareholder, not by loan.  ANd even if it is, it is in the company's name and not hteir own name.

    Since I'm not a business major and you two seemed to know what you talking about, I'll shut up.  Yes Curt Schilling cares if he's company go bankrupt, because those money are "loan" and more like personal loan.

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSPosts: 775Member Uncommon

    It's as he already said: With public funding, he doesn't have to answer to any higher ups, just make the game he has envisioned, and hopefully "pay back" those supporters with an awesome game.

    It's really as simple as that. Crowdfunding gives companies a level of freedom that was not possible before. There's a chance those supporters will be screwed over in the end, as there's risk involved in everything, but those supporters aren't "being taken advantage of" as you put it.  They know full well the risks of throwing money at something that is little more than an idea at the time.

     

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    I think its pretty smart. He is not making a game for everyone and wants to see if there is a actually a population that is actually interested in it. He said they will be asking for 2 mil and if it is met, he will throw in 3 mil of his own money to make the game. If its not met the game is dead and nobody loses any money.
  • MortisRexMortisRex Columbia, TNPosts: 348Member Common

    It's good to see you know what you're talking about OP, otherwise, this whole thread would look pretty silly. Hey, have you looked at the Kickstarter TOS?

    Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

    How is it free money exactly? Do you think this will be completely different from every other Kickstarter software project ever and offer no tiered donation rewards? That's a pretty bold stance to take. I'm going to go ahead and say you're wrong. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there'll be rewards like beta access, in game items, mounts, statues, etc, etc depending on what you contribute.

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