Originally posted by TsaboHavoc Originally posted by WillyMMORPGIn Everquest 1, way back when, the death penalty was brutal. You'd lose a considerable amount of experience and could actually de-level, thus losing level based spells and level restricted gear.A friend of mine got adventurous and went to an EQ1 zone right after leveling because he was a wizard and got the portal spell to travel their automatically. Because EQ1 devs were sadistic bastages, that zone had pockets of high level mobs mixed in with the more level appropriate monsters. This friend was out exploring the zone and ran into an island populated with spectres who were twice the level of the rest of the monsters in that zone (36ish compared to 16-18 normal mobs -- it was that Oasis area near Freeport in case you were wondering).Well, long story not-so-short -- my friend died horribly, one shotted by a nasty group of spectres and (of course) was bound in Qeynos on the other side of the continent. He also de-leveled from 16 to 15, thereby making his level 16 portal spell to the Oasis no longer available. Oh, and in EQ1, your items remained on your body at point of death, so he was looking at walking through about 6-8 zones, "naked" to get back to Oasis, because in those days, you couldn't find someone willing to port a level 15 character, who was broke, out of the goodness of their heart.Luckily, some actual kind soul in Oasis, who was a cleric resurrected my friend back to his body, he was able to loot his stuff, but had to remain in the area for an hour or so killing level appropriate stuff to get his level (and spells) back. Guess what? He never again got curious about new zones without first getting a couple bubbles of experience buffer.
thx for this friend, too bad this kinda of rich story doesnt happen anymore. lets translates for nowadays models
" ur friend gained 2 lvls on the last 5 minutes and clicked "M" to take a look on the map, then he cliked in one of a million teleports on map and zing he is there with a lot of static mobs with a npc with a "!" on its head, he cliks the npc "oh pls mighty hero these lvl 20 hellishchickens are beating the crap outta of me kill 10 of them and return for a reward ( a piece of shit gear that will last 1 lvl)..." return to npc, "oh might leet hero i lost my googles please find for me!" ur friend click at the foot of the npc and take the google * click the npc to deliver ( advance 1 more lvl...
WillyMMORPG, great story. I played EQ in those times and accomplishments felt epic!
TsaboHavoc, omg that is so true. ROFL. Haven't laughed that hard in a while. Brilliantly spoken and dead-on.
Olgard I totally agree with you too! What game is your pic from? Looks cool.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
In Everquest 1, way back when, the death penalty was brutal. You'd lose a considerable amount of experience and could actually de-level, thus losing level based spells and level restricted gear.
A friend of mine got adventurous and went to an EQ1 zone right after leveling because he was a wizard and got the portal spell to travel their automatically. Because EQ1 devs were sadistic bastages, that zone had pockets of high level mobs mixed in with the more level appropriate monsters. This friend was out exploring the zone and ran into an island populated with spectres who were twice the level of the rest of the monsters in that zone (36ish compared to 16-18 normal mobs -- it was that Oasis area near Freeport in case you were wondering).
Well, long story not-so-short -- my friend died horribly, one shotted by a nasty group of spectres and (of course) was bound in Qeynos on the other side of the continent. He also de-leveled from 16 to 15, thereby making his level 16 portal spell to the Oasis no longer available. Oh, and in EQ1, your items remained on your body at point of death, so he was looking at walking through about 6-8 zones, "naked" to get back to Oasis, because in those days, you couldn't find someone willing to port a level 15 character, who was broke, out of the goodness of their heart.
Luckily, some actual kind soul in Oasis, who was a cleric resurrected my friend back to his body, he was able to loot his stuff, but had to remain in the area for an hour or so killing level appropriate stuff to get his level (and spells) back. Guess what? He never again got curious about new zones without first getting a couple bubbles of experience buffer.
thx for this friend, too bad this kinda of rich story doesnt happen anymore. lets translates for nowadays models
" ur friend gained 2 lvls on the last 5 minutes and clicked "M" to take a look on the map, then he cliked in one of a million teleports on map and zing he is there with a lot of static mobs with a npc with a "!" on its head, he cliks the npc "oh pls mighty hero these lvl 20 hellishchickens are beating the crap outta of me kill 10 of them and return for a reward ( a piece of shit gear that will last 1 lvl)..." return to npc, "oh might leet hero i lost my googles please find for me!" ur friend click at the foot of the npc and take the google * click the npc to deliver ( advance 1 more lvl...
How is that even a story? There is no lore context. Essentially, he died and was screwed by the game, and someone helps.
How is that different than we wipe 20 times, and some kind godly tank arrives, and help us to kill the boss?
I was there .. i remember the spectres (you kite them around for single kills .. because they gave the best xp). Very boring grinding mob game with frustrating like ... oh i lose xp, now i have to kite some more spectres?
Permadeath is not fun, but there should always be a penalty for rushing in blindly into a fight and getting killed. Experience loss was one of the best things about EQ1 because it actually matters where you went and how you went about things. Nowadays a death costs you 10 seconds to time. The entire thought process is gone from staying alive because there isn't a real penalty.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Originally posted by Aeonblades Permadeath is not fun, but there should always be a penalty for rushing in blindly into a fight and getting killed. Experience loss was one of the best things about EQ1 because it actually matters where you went and how you went about things. Nowadays a death costs you 10 seconds to time. The entire thought process is gone from staying alive because there isn't a real penalty.
The many players who play D3 hard core would disagree.
Personally it is not fun for me, so i don't play hard core mode. But obviously there are those who find it fun.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Originally posted by dave6660 Move the slider up the rewards become better and better. You're risking more and receiving more.
Can't have hardcoded loot tables though. :stare Blizzard:
I wonder how often gamers realise just how many things are the way they are, not for well thought out game design reasons, but for cost/benefit--it was just easier to code that fast and dirty.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Should MMOs remove the death penalty? It never really made sense to me. Especially in the older MMOs.
You are dead! Lose 25% of your stats and/or skills! (usually a debuff for x amount of minutes or needing to earn x amount of exp/kill x amount of monsters to remove it)
This never made sense. Okay, so I die...I lose 25% of my ability...how am I supposed to kill anything to remove the debuff? Even if it is just 30 minutes...that just means I can't play for 30 minutes? Especially since most MMOs penalize you for killing weaker stuff than your level/skill...so...this seems very counter beneficial
I too dislike the penalty but it's a way for devs to prolong your gaming experience or sub. Too weak to fight now? You have to continue later.
Then if all your gear is damaged...how are you supposed to continue in a dungeon or a raid or do anything? gear is very important in almost all MMOs...I guess go and repair it...but usually...ESPECIALLY for tanks...its so expensive, sometimes you cant even afford to repair it all.
I've had many people turn down group activities because they couldn't afford the anticipated repair bill, usually after a recent purchase. Imagine, you bought new gear but can't afford to use it.
And then it runs into the same problem as losing stats/skills...but even worse...because gear is usually way more important...so without fully repaired items, again...you are penalized so much, you can't do anything.
So going back to the original question...should MMOs remove the death penalty? Or, at least change it to something that still lets you...you know...still play the game even if you die?
Definitely get rid of it! When was the last time you heard someone say "Woohoo! I got rez sickness! I'll join you in another 10 min." Or "I'm repeatedly committing suicide because my repair bills cost too little." In WoW, people try to retrieve their bodies to minimize damage.
I feel the lessing of death is what caused the zerg fest we have now a days. I remember back in EQ when taking a xp hit was something you went out of your way to avoid, not anymore though.
You would spend time and plat to get a cleric to come rez you!
I feel the lessing of death is what caused the zerg fest we have now a days. I remember back in EQ when taking a xp hit was something you went out of your way to avoid, not anymore though.
You would spend time and plat to get a cleric to come rez you!
Zerg fest is *good*. You would rather players be timid and do nothing most of the time, than rushing into battle and try out the new skills?
Originally posted by dave6660 Move the slider up the rewards become better and better. You're risking more and receiving more.
Can't have hardcoded loot tables though. :stare Blizzard:
I wonder how often gamers realise just how many things are the way they are, not for well thought out game design reasons, but for cost/benefit--it was just easier to code that fast and dirty.
What hardcoded loot tables? Last time i played Diablo 3, you can adjust drop rates by changing difficulty levels. Last time I play WOW, i can choose a different level of raid for different level of drops.
I feel the lessing of death is what caused the zerg fest we have now a days. I remember back in EQ when taking a xp hit was something you went out of your way to avoid, not anymore though.
You would spend time and plat to get a cleric to come rez you!
Zerg fest is *good*. You would rather players be timid and do nothing most of the time, than rushing into battle and try out the new skills?
I would prefer they learn that new skill before they join a raid or just 'rush' into battle.
Originally posted by Aeonblades Permadeath is not fun, but there should always be a penalty for rushing in blindly into a fight and getting killed. Experience loss was one of the best things about EQ1 because it actually matters where you went and how you went about things. Nowadays a death costs you 10 seconds to time. The entire thought process is gone from staying alive because there isn't a real penalty.
The many players who play D3 hard core would disagree.
Personally it is not fun for me, so i don't play hard core mode. But obviously there are those who find it fun.
We are talking about MMO's not ARPGs, thanks.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Let's resurrect I-D-D-Q-D. Then we can all brag about our l33t skillz.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Rather than a one size fits all i would rather see differing death penalties in all games. Of course mass market mmo's means catering to the widest possible audience which is why you see death penalties watered down so much.
It won't be long before some smart developer starts rewarding people for dying.
Playing Path of Exile has made me realise how much i actually miss the old days. A decent death penalty means i am more considered in how i play rather than trying to Rambo through everything. It's nice to have to turn tail and run for your life trying to survive rather than just going down swinging, respawning and charging back into the mobs for another go.
I feel the lessing of death is what caused the zerg fest we have now a days. I remember back in EQ when taking a xp hit was something you went out of your way to avoid, not anymore though.
You would spend time and plat to get a cleric to come rez you!
Zerg fest is *good*. You would rather players be timid and do nothing most of the time, than rushing into battle and try out the new skills?
I would prefer they learn that new skill before they join a raid or just 'rush' into battle.
Doesn't matter when they learn it. If the death penalty is too high, they are less likely to try and learn in other settings too. And if you don't rush into battle, how do you learn the raid? You never play a practice raid before? (knowing that you are going to wipe, but just practice some manevers).
I feel the lessing of death is what caused the zerg fest we have now a days. I remember back in EQ when taking a xp hit was something you went out of your way to avoid, not anymore though.
You would spend time and plat to get a cleric to come rez you!
I still go out of my way to avoid XP hits. I simply do not play games that include these types of death penalties.
I really do not see why anyone who avoided death in older games due to death panalties would stop doing so in games without a harsh death penalty. That smacks of laziness and a lack of motivation.
When there's no penalty for dying there are no repercussions for failure. This causes all content to feel trivial as there is no risk to make the reward feel worthwhile.
This sort of thing just reinforces my belief that gamers want things that would actually harm their play experience just to make it easier... if you took away every inconvenience, challenge and penalty in a game it would be wholly unsatisfying to play. The feeling of exhilaration I'd feel in FFXI (a game where death means losing XP and losing levels) when completing major content was on a completely different level to what modern MMOs manage, and that was partly because of how big the risk was when tackling challenging content.
I wonder if the younger generation of MMO gamers actually even know that feeling...
The death penalty servers a positive function in MMO.
It tends to help community building, it's no longer possible to zerg and make mistakes, it requires geting to know people, having faith in people, communicating with people.
Comments
" ur friend gained 2 lvls on the last 5 minutes and clicked "M" to take a look on the map, then he cliked in one of a million teleports on map and zing he is there with a lot of static mobs with a npc with a "!" on its head, he cliks the npc "oh pls mighty hero these lvl 20 hellishchickens are beating the crap outta of me kill 10 of them and return for a reward ( a piece of shit gear that will last 1 lvl)..." return to npc, "oh might leet hero i lost my googles please find for me!" ur friend click at the foot of the npc and take the google * click the npc to deliver ( advance 1 more lvl...
WillyMMORPG, great story. I played EQ in those times and accomplishments felt epic!
TsaboHavoc, omg that is so true. ROFL. Haven't laughed that hard in a while. Brilliantly spoken and dead-on.
Olgard I totally agree with you too! What game is your pic from? Looks cool.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
How is that even a story? There is no lore context. Essentially, he died and was screwed by the game, and someone helps.
How is that different than we wipe 20 times, and some kind godly tank arrives, and help us to kill the boss?
I was there .. i remember the spectres (you kite them around for single kills .. because they gave the best xp). Very boring grinding mob game with frustrating like ... oh i lose xp, now i have to kite some more spectres?
I am glad those days are over.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
The many players who play D3 hard core would disagree.
Personally it is not fun for me, so i don't play hard core mode. But obviously there are those who find it fun.
/thread again
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Can't have hardcoded loot tables though. :stare Blizzard:
I wonder how often gamers realise just how many things are the way they are, not for well thought out game design reasons, but for cost/benefit--it was just easier to code that fast and dirty.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Definitely get rid of it! When was the last time you heard someone say "Woohoo! I got rez sickness! I'll join you in another 10 min." Or "I'm repeatedly committing suicide because my repair bills cost too little." In WoW, people try to retrieve their bodies to minimize damage.
losing progress in mmos is always bad, that make ma want to shut down the game.
The best penalty was in CoH, remember dept-brothers ? :-)
I feel the lessing of death is what caused the zerg fest we have now a days. I remember back in EQ when taking a xp hit was something you went out of your way to avoid, not anymore though.
You would spend time and plat to get a cleric to come rez you!
Zerg fest is *good*. You would rather players be timid and do nothing most of the time, than rushing into battle and try out the new skills?
What hardcoded loot tables? Last time i played Diablo 3, you can adjust drop rates by changing difficulty levels. Last time I play WOW, i can choose a different level of raid for different level of drops.
I would prefer they learn that new skill before they join a raid or just 'rush' into battle.
We are talking about MMO's not ARPGs, thanks.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Let's resurrect I-D-D-Q-D. Then we can all brag about our l33t skillz.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Rather than a one size fits all i would rather see differing death penalties in all games. Of course mass market mmo's means catering to the widest possible audience which is why you see death penalties watered down so much.
It won't be long before some smart developer starts rewarding people for dying.
Playing Path of Exile has made me realise how much i actually miss the old days. A decent death penalty means i am more considered in how i play rather than trying to Rambo through everything. It's nice to have to turn tail and run for your life trying to survive rather than just going down swinging, respawning and charging back into the mobs for another go.
Doesn't matter when they learn it. If the death penalty is too high, they are less likely to try and learn in other settings too. And if you don't rush into battle, how do you learn the raid? You never play a practice raid before? (knowing that you are going to wipe, but just practice some manevers).
I still go out of my way to avoid XP hits. I simply do not play games that include these types of death penalties.
I really do not see why anyone who avoided death in older games due to death panalties would stop doing so in games without a harsh death penalty. That smacks of laziness and a lack of motivation.
thought they already removed it.
last games with propper death penalty i can remember are neocron and DAoC
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
They need to bring experience penalty back to new MMO's. It's a true game changer.
When there's no penalty for dying there are no repercussions for failure. This causes all content to feel trivial as there is no risk to make the reward feel worthwhile.
This sort of thing just reinforces my belief that gamers want things that would actually harm their play experience just to make it easier... if you took away every inconvenience, challenge and penalty in a game it would be wholly unsatisfying to play. The feeling of exhilaration I'd feel in FFXI (a game where death means losing XP and losing levels) when completing major content was on a completely different level to what modern MMOs manage, and that was partly because of how big the risk was when tackling challenging content.
I wonder if the younger generation of MMO gamers actually even know that feeling...
If you want a harsh death penalty play this:
https://crawl.s-z.org/#lobby
If you can win a game once you are probably better than 99.9% of all MMO players.
Ofcourse death penalty makes sense.
If there wasnt any kind of penalty people would just die and rush continuosly until they kill whatever they want to kill.
Bots paradise.
Beta tester maniac
The death penalty servers a positive function in MMO.
It tends to help community building, it's no longer possible to zerg and make mistakes, it requires geting to know people, having faith in people, communicating with people.