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Poll: Do you want a /stick command that works on enemies?

2

Comments

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jimmac

    Yes, I do want a /stick command. And /assist name or /assist defensive target.

    Before explaining why, I want to briefly explain that I believe what made DAOC's pvp great was the combat mechanics. By combat mechanics, I mean movement mechanics, spell abilities and their complexity, combat rules (such as if you are hit with a melee weapon, your spell casting is interrupted; crowd control timer equations, etc.), and the need for constant positioning for some classes (usually dps casters and healers) depending on the current combat situation.

    It seems to me that most people cite the fact that DAOC had 3 realms as the main reason the pvp was great. Having 3 realms was nice, but it was not the primary reason...at least not for me. It was just icing on the cake, and it really helped build realm loyalty. But think about Warhammer. 3 realms wouldn't have transformed the combat into something exciting and challenging. Look at The Secret World. It has 3 realms and the combat is just a slam-into-each-other fest where the side with the most glance tanks (the OP build right now) wins.

    So now back to my original point. A /stick command on enemies may very well be necessary for DAOC-like pvp to occur in Camelot Unchained. It sounds counter intuitive, but without /stick, the combat risks being watered down. Think about it. If you are a squishy caster and let 3 melee dps'ers get on top of you and stick you, you are going down within seconds. You probably can't shake them and you are being interrupted. Your primary job in a fight is (usually) to stay alive. Stay alive, and then as much as possible, fulfill your class role.

    If the high dps melee enemies have /stick, then that means you have to extend. That means you have to kite. You need to be paying constant attention to where you are, where your tanks/dps are, where the healer is, and where all those things for the enemy realm are. This is where the game gets strategic and tactical at the same time. You are playing in a group with 7 other players and your casters are trying to extend while not getting too far from their own melee classes. Meanwhile, your DPS'ers are trying to take down enemies in the thick of the battle while trying to make sure not to get too extended from the casters and healers behind them.

    Yeah, the melees and tanks are sticking each other right in the middle of the battle so they can focus on their chains. They have to constantly make the decision of whether to stay sticked or try to get on someone else nearby or try to retreat to stay with their group. The healers know they only have a split second to start healing whoever the /stick train attacks next. All the while everyone is trying to maintain optimal positioning for their character. This is group coordination at it's finest.

    With no stick, the melee combat becomes side stepping, circle strafing party where everyone is focusing on doing a circle dance around the opponent and not focusing on the awesome parts of a fight - the tactical positioning of everyone in the group and hitting your necessary abilities. Sure the healers still need to heal and casters still need to run from the tanks, but the threat is less, the need is less, the tactical requirements are lowered and watered down. The need for extension is less and so it just doesn't happen.

    With no /stick, the fight strategies end up being the same for both sides - slam your team into theirs and mix around with each other in one general place until the team with more cookie cutter builds wins. Don't bother extending, since it probably doesn't matter. It sounds weird, but every mmorpg I see without stick suffers from this same symptom - side strafing maniacs. This comes at the expense of necessary or meaningful coordinated extension.

    In short, the combat isn't fun in the long run.

    If you want 8 manning, I think /stick is a necessary part of that. If you want 8 manning versus a zerg and being able to kill some of the zerg while extending and possibly surviving, then again, /stick is a necessary part of that. /stick makes tactical positioning matter for everyone on the board at all times, and requires everyone to be at the top of their game at all times. This is one of the things that makes the combat in DAOC awesome and skill based.

    There are two types of mmorpg pvp - live action chess, or football with weapons. DAOC was live action chess. Warhammer, TSW, most other mmo's are football with weapons.

    Not disagreeing with your opinion because you're entitled to them but if the game was a 2 faction MMO it would of been a disaster.  The combat was in my opinion the worst part of the game to me it was always the community and the constant flow of kicking so much ass being on the winning side (Albion) and watching the other 2 factions try to double team us ever single day.  Take that away and you're left with a fairly standard and bland MMO.

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  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    It's becoming sickeningly obvious from this thread who has and who has not played Dark Age of Camelot. 

     

    Seriously? Go back to Halo? wtf. 

     

    And calling /stick macroing? Uhhh...

  • deathangelldeathangell oviedo, FLPosts: 85Member
    anyone who didnt play daoc will vote no its pretty simple u should do this poll based on yes and no and also have Yes-played daoc or No-played daoc that way we can see if its people who dont understand because there not use to ability chains and positionals and how tough they could truly be in active combat.
  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Jimmac
     

    Not disagreeing with your opinion because you're entitled to them but if the game was a 2 faction MMO it would of been a disaster.  The combat was in my opinion the worst part of the game to me it was always the community and the constant flow of kicking so much ass being on the winning side (Albion) and watching the other 2 factions try to double team us ever single day.  Take that away and you're left with a fairly standard and bland MMO.

    Yeah, I hear where you're coming from. The game wasn't perfect. I didn't see any reason whatsoever for stealther classes, and I wasn't a huge fan of the pve for example. I agree that 2 realms needing to come together was probably crucial to the fun usually. Minus the 3 realms and the game very well could have been garbage, despite otherwise having great PVP mechanics.

    My central point is that those mechanics were a necessary part of making the PVP awesome. Was it the only thing? No. For many people like yourself, I'm sure it wasn't. Just saying it was a very critical part.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    It's becoming sickeningly obvious from this thread who has and who has not played Dark Age of Camelot. 

     

    Seriously? Go back to Halo? wtf. 

     

    And calling /stick macroing? Uhhh...

    No one wants a bunny hop halo fest, it's been mentioned in nearly every post disagreeing with /stick, so your Halo comment is silly and off base. That can be kept from happening by having enurance taken from jumping or many other ways.

    /stick Is for people who cant use both hands at the same time or do not want to expend the effort to actually play their character. Games have enough automation now, and this was wanna of my biggest gripes with DAoC for years because even with situational and positional styles, a lot of players had no idea how to use them and just used the /stick assist train because they have to idea how to pick targets or which skill chains to use and when to use them.

    Saying someone obviously didn't play DAoC is presumptuous and flat out wrong, a lot of us greatly enjoyed DAoC and just want the small problems it did have fixed.

    Then again what do I know, I only had 6 50s and 3 above RR5 so I wasn't exactly the RvR king if you catch my drift :)

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  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Detroit, MIPosts: 376Member

    No.

    DAOC needed it, because let's face it... movement and character control is not very good when compared to more recent MMO's.

  • gregoryvggregoryvg Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 35Member

    Jimmac - well said.

     

    Edit: I agree and in my post mentioned some of the same reasons as you.  /stick and /assist actually make the game more tactical, you actually have to make more decisions and have more situational awareness.  Also it allows a smaller, dedicated force to actually damage and sometimes prevail against a larger force.

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by OgreRaper

    No.

    DAOC needed it, because let's face it... movement and character control is not very good when compared to more recent MMO's.

    Originally posted by deathangell
    anyone who didnt play daoc will vote no its pretty simple u should do this poll based on yes and no and also have Yes-played daoc or No-played daoc that way we can see if its people who dont understand because there not use to ability chains and positionals and how tough they could truly be in active combat.

    OP has asked one of those questions where it seems like the answer is obvious, which is why this is a fun topic to discuss. Anyway...

    deathangell gets it. With 4 hotbars and a bunch of abilities/potions/etc and complex ability chains, it is pointless to require the melees to circle straf battle each other looking ridiculous at the same time. It's not like /stick is easy mode. /stick the wrong person, and you just wasted your time and 2 of your buddies time who were /assiting you. Your team wipes. /sticking one person then the battle situation changes now you have to switch targets. This is not easy mode.

    /stick isn't about shitty movement controls. It's about opening the player up to shine. Circle dancing isn't skill. ability chains and positionals, as deathangell said, are where the talent shines through.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by deathangell
    anyone who didnt play daoc will vote no its pretty simple u should do this poll based on yes and no and also have Yes-played daoc or No-played daoc that way we can see if its people who dont understand because there not use to ability chains and positionals and how tough they could truly be in active combat.

     Except those of us that did play...and voted no.

    Sorry, just because people played a game it doesnt mean they agreed with/or liked every single thing in it.

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  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nibs

    /stick helped combat the circle strafing and bunny hopping. The fact that strafing also had a slower movement rate helped as well.

    []

    Yeah, even with /stick there will be strafing. But I think the real question we have to ask is what kind of strafing do we want? Because it's going to happen whether /stick is in the game or not.

    DAOC had strafing and it was used for positionals. Other games that don't have stick still have players strafing, except that they are doing it for the same reason people bunny hop...to force the other player to have to dance/straf right back with them, constantly trying to keep face. Both types require skill, but the types of skill here are very different from each other.

    So then the question is, do you want the skill to come from hitting your buttons or from being the better dancer?

    I want skill from buttons. I don't like needing to be skillful at straf dancing. It isn't fun to me. I like to focus on positionals and ability chains, and if I don't have to worry about doing the circle dance, then that opens me up to being able to monitor where everyone else is in my group. Do I need to extend? Do they? That sort of tactical coordination happens less, I think, when the meleers are circle dancing constantly and their screens are spinning 360 all the time. It's just much easier for them to do their fancy dance moves if the middle of the battle stays stationary so they can duke it out until death, than to actually make the tactical decision to extend and retreat.

  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deathangell
    anyone who didnt play daoc will vote no its pretty simple u should do this poll based on yes and no and also have Yes-played daoc or No-played daoc that way we can see if its people who dont understand because there not use to ability chains and positionals and how tough they could truly be in active combat.

    IMO it's more like: Are you a clicker? yes/no. 

     

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  • majimaji ColognePosts: 1,993Member Uncommon
    The more the game does automatically the less there is to play.

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  • ZinzanZinzan NorthPosts: 1,351Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by deathangell
    anyone who didnt play daoc will vote no its pretty simple u should do this poll based on yes and no and also have Yes-played daoc (lol) or No-played daoc (lol)
    that way we can see if its people who dont understand because there not use to ability chains and positionals and how tough they could truly be in active combat.

     Except those of us that did play...and voted no.

    Sorry, just because people played a game it doesnt mean they agreed with/or liked every single thing in it.

    Same here. Played from beta 8+ years and i also voted no and gave my reasons.

    I guess some people like to make sweeping assumptions based on nothing but their own ignorance.

    The amusing thing is he seems to think you need to /stick to land positional chains, i used the destroy players like this ad-nauseum, it was rediculously easy to kill the /stick monkeys unless they resorted to runthrough. Good players never used /stick for anything other than following their main CC while moving in a group...even then the top groups did not run on stick to avoid the aoe CC :)

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  • EolexEolex Winnetka, CAPosts: 20Member

    Look, if CU is going to have the same sort of combat mechanics, it is going to need a stick/face option. Plain and simple. Unless they revamp the mechanics to give attekers more time for follow up attacks, a zig zag motion is enough lapsed time to mess up a combat chain, making chains uneffective. in DAOC, the stick was there to be close enough to a target to do follow up attacks, if for whatever reason your attack chain was interupted, you start back from the first move in the chain.

     

    Please, if you have not played DAoC, your no /stick is invalid. When zerg meets zerg and there is an assist train of melee slamming into another jumble of melee, you assist the target, strafe to the deiserd position, and start your chain. If people were zig zagging, spinning, jumping with or without endurence restraints, this would make any combat chain of 3+ moves worthless. Might as well play one of the many other MMO's that already has boring PVP with out combat chains/positionals. Position and Facing were CRITICAl in DAOC, You couldnt guard arrows if getting shot from behind, You could not evade attacks from the side. Keep in mind both those things above would allow you to retaliate with a combat chain.

     

    Face/stick are stamples for the mechanics in DAoC, if you never played you don't know, if you did and you never used them, you were doing it wrong. If CU follows DAoC combat train of thought then face/stick need to be in the game. If it goes action orinated or hotkey spamming like the masses of other games already on the market, then count me out. I can already play a bunch of failed pvp mechanic games.

     

    TLDR: Don't be lazy, read the post.

  • Angier2758Angier2758 Mt. Prospect, ILPosts: 1,011Member
    Originally posted by fanglo

    I voted yes. Current MMO's without /stick favor bunnyhopping mechanics which is way to twitchy for me. Free RPs as well as Lagged Again, 2 of the top 8man guilds used /stick and they did amazing with it. Like another poster said, stick allows you to focus on situational awareness better. Now obviously the people who just /stick and stay stuck for the majority of the fight are doing it wrong. You hit your assist button, stick to figure out exactly where the target is and then break /stick to get off your positionals, just like Free RPs and Lagged again did it.

     

     Ummm have you played DAoC?

    The top guilds did *NOT* do that.  They just spammed rear positionals in the /stick train or their normal abilities.   Remember Left Axe?

    The people who want stick just can't pvp... every other arguement is just trying to hide that fact.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by deathangell
    anyone who didnt play daoc will vote no its pretty simple u should do this poll based on yes and no and also have Yes-played daoc or No-played daoc that way we can see if its people who dont understand because there not use to ability chains and positionals and how tough they could truly be in active combat.

    IMO it's more like: Are you a clicker? yes/no. 

     

    No - I don't think that is the right way to think about it.

     

    If you can't play well, suing /stick isn't going to help one iota.

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  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member

    As a caster for a majority of my DAoC gaming life, I never really needed /stick except when following a MA, and it worked to my class advantage (shaman) to have a melee train stick to me so that I could sprint them out of range, pop an instant pbaoe disease, and run back to the group while their melee were snared.

    The few times I played melee, it had it's uses, but was by no means something that was overpowering. It just helped me concentrate more on my chains and improved my situational awareness.

    I voted yes in this poll, because I don't think it's that big of a deal. The good players will find advantages around it.

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by Jostle
    Interesting. There seems to be this thought that without /stick we would necessarily have bunny-hopping. I disagree. Make jumping cost endurance. Or increase incomming damage. Or both. That'll castrate those bunnies. Stupid bunnies.Back on topic... I voted no. And I surprised myself. I say yes, a follow command for friendly players that's as snappy and quick as /stick would be great (I always felt like this command in other games didn't work as well for some reason, like I was following them from too far back and getting stuck in terrain as a result) but for enemies, it's really not necessary anymore.

    I was just thinking this same thing...its pretty fucking easy to stop bunny hoping without lobotomising a game. I hope there is /stick with the ability to charge over gaps just so I can send clickers to their deaths.

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  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Detroit, MIPosts: 376Member
    Originally posted by skyexile

     


    Originally posted by Jostle
    Interesting. There seems to be this thought that without /stick we would necessarily have bunny-hopping. I disagree. Make jumping cost endurance. Or increase incomming damage. Or both. That'll castrate those bunnies. Stupid bunnies.

     

    Back on topic... I voted no. And I surprised myself. I say yes, a follow command for friendly players that's as snappy and quick as /stick would be great (I always felt like this command in other games didn't work as well for some reason, like I was following them from too far back and getting stuck in terrain as a result) but for enemies, it's really not necessary anymore.


     

    I was just thinking this same thing...its pretty fucking easy to stop bunny hoping without lobotomising a game. I hope there is /stick with the ability to charge over gaps just so I can send clickers to their deaths.

     

    Ha! Yes, that would be awesome!

  • CluckingChickenCluckingChicken Calgary, ABPosts: 54Member
    I'm convinced that the majority of players that support /stick are amputees. Thats ok I'm totally down with that. Why are people assuming this is going to play like DAoC? They've been very clear that this is not DAoC2, so I imagine the first thing they would deviate from are the ancient movement mechanics. Get your head out of the past.
  • shaodrinshaodrin sdf, AKPosts: 30Member

    i can understand when some people say no to stick ... but no to /face ? wtf guys ? in a game where standing still is a must for caster there is such a high need for face ... dunno how often my targets would have died without face as cleric(healer) since u needed like 1 sec to actually stand still without /Face ... same goes for caster when you had to run watch your back for that tank /face him and root him ... without face this whole action would have needed 1+ secs more wich are essential when your assist target had to die/the rupt was needed or what ever and when a single swing of his weapon would rupt your whole cast  ... /face was your only option to actually stand still the moment you want to stand still and even if camelot unchain has a deceleration next to 0 secs ... it will never have 0 sec from 100 to 0 since that will not "feel" right with normal movement ... so you will allways lose time as soon as you start moving and every caster will have a disadvantage without /face (assuming melee swings are doable while moving)

    + you need this to find your targets running through a keep or even the landscape and getting hit by something without the chance to instantly know where the shot came from (with los this realy is sometimes hard on a large map) just lets you die without the chance to do anything ... when the enemy caster needs like 4-5 casts (like 4-5 secs till your death) and your only chance to survive this is to rupt him by casting a cast wich needs like 3secs(using qc because of rupt so u were able to cast through rupt) there is no time to look in a 360 degree radius sorround you

     

     

    well i understand that some people say no to stick but as a skilled player you never used stick to realy stick your target lol ... as a warri i most of the times used stick to find the direction towards the assist target or my bg/guard target(knowing where 15 people are at the same time isnt allways that easy) but not to actually stick them since this made me more vulnerable towards poistioning styles/melee stuns ...you just simply had less controll above your char maybe some low skilled people used this to run/stick with your 4 people melee assist after a single caster but hey ... as a def tank this made my whole job a cake since i had all the time in the world to backsnare em one after another ... after all you used this comand to decrease your reaction time and to do your job as fast as possible but not to realy stick and afk your target .. stick never made a skilled player uber it gave bad people a chance to partisipate without feeling totaly useless

  • vonbose0vonbose0 Anchorage, AKPosts: 23Member

    I played daoc for years and i guess I could go either way on this. We didn't have /stick in warhamer and it seemed fine. Sure there were lots of weirdos like running and jumping in circles, (im assuming WoW pvp?) but it was simple enough to just swivel to face them. To me /stick is no worse than ranged spells like a fireball following a moving target, or heals not requiring line of site, or even pbae only affecting enemies.

    Maybe we should be talking about those things as well. There was friendly fire in Shadow bane and the fights were much more tricky! 

  • koocmadaaakoocmadaaa Rochester, NYPosts: 9Member
    I personally would welcome the stick command. As Mark stated he wants it to be about team/realm strategy. I really don't want to play another game with the run through bunny hopping. I agree that takes skill but it just cheapens the experience and makes combat silly IMO. Just if stick is implemented there better be a way for some team/realmmate to get the pain train off so its not /stick /assist /rinse&repeat. 
  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member

    Depends on the overall combat system.  In a game oriented towards action combat like, say, GW2, /stick wouldn't make any sense.

     

    In a game geared more towards strategic combat, and less about twitch, I could see its place. 

     

    Depends on where this game is headed.

  • MuckbeastMuckbeast Lexington, KYPosts: 19Member

    1) /stick is one of the main reasons DAoC PvP was the best PvP in the history of MMOs. 

     

    2) /stick solved the problem of idiots spaz jumping like fools and being able to exploit lag, latency, client-server miscommunication, etc. Jumping around as a way to have 100% mitigation is stupid. 

     

    3) /stick is a huge step towards making melee viable. In almost every PvP MMO, melee classes quickly become fodder and there are huge problems balancing melee and ranged classes. /stick is the key to moving towards balance.

     

    4) /stick solved a lot of problems with lag and client-server not knowing exactly where everyone was. There is no way for client-server information to always be perfect.

     

    5) /stick isn't cheap. /stick removes things that are cheap. See above, especially #2 and #3.

     

    6) /stick adds strategy, because you spend more time thinking about what you are going to do and less time fighting the UI to just be in melee range.

     

    7) /stick is better for UI design, because you are able to use more buttons and keybinds since you don't have to constantly keep 3 or 4 fingers on WAD or WASD.

     

    I sincerely hope CU has /stick. The lack of /stick in MMOs after DAoC is a huge reason they have been dramatically inferior in so many ways.

     

    /stick is grossly underrated as a vital feature in MMOs.

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