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Item Decay is the bullet that must be bitten.

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  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common

    First of all, you do NOT need a good economy in games, not even MMOs. Its nice to have, certainly - but its a feature, not a requirement. Plenty of games have a screwed up economies and yet they are still fun.

     

    Second, there are three mechanisms I know of to assert people need new items:

    - Item Decay. You use an item, it starts an counter. Once you reach zero, byebye. A typical case of treadmil gaming - you have to work to stay at the same point. The only way to have this kind of mechanism is if you have really shallow kinds of crafting - i.e. quick and fast and dirty - and items arent too powerful.

    - Soulbound. Now this is the same in the end, but you can play one and the same character without end. The appropiate mechanism for quest rewards. Otherwise, highly annoying for people who love playing many characters, but completely neutral to people who only ever play one character.

    - Overenchanting. This is definitely my favorite. You can craft items, and you can improve them endlessly - but every time you do, there is a chance of breaking the item. Players with excess items will simply try to enchant them, thus thining the market. Also, you can get better and better with your equipment, without limitations.

    So in the sum, item decay is the worst mechanism. It makes elaborate crafting impossible and it makes powerful items impossible. Overenchanting is the best, its an already eloborate form of crafting in itself.

     

    Third of all, there are three things that are absolute no-gos for me:

    - Pay to win

    - First person perspective

    - Item decay

    If you have any of these "features", well you wont get me as a player, end of story.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Iselin

    MMOs are about fighting the bad guys. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups of varying sizes, sometimes here and sometimes there...that's it

    Everything else... crafting, buying and selling, cooking, fishing, building and outfitting houses...those are just side activities that, at best, can support the "fighting the bad guys" part and at worst are just time-sinks to keep you from looking too closely at the defficiencies in the core gameplay.

    The EQ/WOW design is one way to build an MMO, not the only way.

     Technically, you're correct. World of Ping-Pong is yeat another way...you could even craft your own decaying paddles. image

    You really don't know that MMOs outside of the EQ/WOW formula exist? Really? Here are a few.

    • ATITD
    • Tales Runner
    • Project Powder
    • Crazy Kart
    • Free Realms
    • Gaia Online
    • IMVU
    • Muxlim
    • HKO
    • Furcadia
    • OnVerse
    • Red Light Center
    • Sociolotron
    • Garden Party World
    • vMTV
    • Kaneva
    • Second Life
    • There
    • Habbo Hotel 

    There's a difference between knowing and not giving a shit. Some people enjoy collecting shovels...good for them!

    There's a real problem when the secondary, optional parts of MMORPGs become the dominant topic for discussion...a phenomenom seen here every day.

    And then there is the seemingly egalitarian philosophy of this and many other discussion forums of including everything that remotely resembles an MMORPG due to having an online component in the description.

    Btw, that's quite the lists of time-wasters I would never willingly have anything to do with you have there.

    I play MMOs to adventure, explore, kill and loot. In real life I fish, cook and even do a bit of leather crafting. I want to simulate that in an MMO about as much as I want to simulate actuarial risk assesments there.

    No one is contesting your personal playstyle. No one is saying your particular view of what you want an MMO to be is wrong or bad.

    Iselin, it's one thing to be incorrect. It's another to know what is correct and then take the stance of "I don't give a shit" because it conflict with what you personally like. You're not really contributing to the discussion in any meaningful way at that point.

    There's your real problem, Iselin, and it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KruulKruul Houston, TXPosts: 476Member
    Originally posted by adam_nox

    Do you want crafting to play an important role in an mmo?

    Do you want to be able to give items to your friends?

    Do you want your mmo to have a functioning economy?

     

    If you answered yes to all three (or maybe just 2), then there is only one solution.  Item Decay.  Now just hold that rage inside for a moment.   I know the thought of losing your epic purples from use might seem distasteful at first, but please consider a couple things.

     

    1.  In most modern mmo's crafting has lost most it's significance.  Blizzard has in two different games introduced special items that you can craft, but if you don't care about them, then there's no point to crafting except something to do.

     

    2.  Similarly, we now have the concept of soulbinding, where we cannot freely trade or gift items around.  Even if in practice it doesn't infuriate you, how do we tolerate something that makes so little sense?  Oh yeah...

     

    3.  Economic inflation.  As more and more gear floods the economy, currencies crumble and gear acquisition and ownership become pointless. 

     

    Unfortunately, the bandaid of soulbinding hasn't fixed the issue, while it creates it's own problems.  Now let me sell you on Item Decay.  First off, in at least WoW, you don't keep the same gear because blizzard releases new expansions that raise the cap and introduce new epic tiers, thus creating a gear treadmill that can lead only to OVER 9000 syndome.  You become more powerful, enemies match you, doesn't it all get a little old?

     

    Secondly, do you really want to wear the same gear month after month, year after year?  With Item Decay, acquiring backup weapons and gear becomes interesting and necessary, and your game experience becomes more varied as you switch things up.

     

    This can also alleviate a little bit of gear stingyness on the part of devs who want people to keep playing, and are afraid once they have the gear from a dungeon that it will no longer appeal to them. 

     

    For crafting, some kind of reverse engineering process can help crafters put together weapons and armor that mimics the power of that found in dungeons, and better yet, custom made with the stats and effects the player wants.  A penalty to this might be a faster decay rate.

     

    You could also modify soulbinding to attunement, where once a weapon has been used (or picked up in some cases) for the first time, it's attuned to that owner, and suffers half the normal decay rate (which would be somewhat fast).  So tossing used items at friends won't be quite as good as finding it themselves.

     

    If you don't want to forget about that time you had that great weapon with super rare stats, when it's become unusable, it could go up in some sort of trophy room.

    amen

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,552Member Uncommon
    Yep.  Agree with OP.  Gawd I hate bound items.

  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    Item decay is a big part of WorldAlpha.  Everything decays including all buildings.  It is important to keep the economy rolling.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • ScottgunScottgun Williamsville, NYPosts: 356Member
    Originally posted by craftseeker

    While I never felt this, and in fact like the idea of Item Decay, you have to recognise it is not going to happen.  Too many people would scream and stamp there feet about it.  As a consequence the developer would either abandon the idea or pretty soon the game would be reduced to a slowly dying niche game.

    ^^This. It's right up there with the solo vs. "forced" grouping. The pandering to the squeaky wheels practically guarantees that mmoprgs are doomed to be single-player-gratuitously-sharing-a-server games.

    Now we're calling prostitutes "sex workers". What's next? Calling hit men "end-of-life technicians"?

  • WereLlamaWereLlama Lubbock, TXPosts: 243Member

    No.  Due to player churn, item decay is not neccessary, only item binding. 

    That way people feel true character development when they get a new item, and not the 'well its charged so who cares'.

    And, there always be a demand for the product  ( as 5% new players come in every month)

    -Blitz

     

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scottgun
    Originally posted by craftseeker

    While I never felt this, and in fact like the idea of Item Decay, you have to recognise it is not going to happen.  Too many people would scream and stamp there feet about it.  As a consequence the developer would either abandon the idea or pretty soon the game would be reduced to a slowly dying niche game.

    ^^This. It's right up there with the solo vs. "forced" grouping. The pandering to the squeaky wheels practically guarantees that mmoprgs are doomed to be single-player-gratuitously-sharing-a-server games.

    If that is what a lot of players find fun, what is wrong?

    if "pandering to the squeaky wheels"="listening to your customers", then yeah, why not.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by craftseeker

    While I never felt this, and in fact like the idea of Item Decay, you have to recognise it is not going to happen.  Too many people would scream and stamp there feet about it.  As a consequence the developer would either abandon the idea or pretty soon the game would be reduced to a slowly dying niche game.

    Decay is durability. It is wear and tear. Most MMOs already have it.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • quseioquseio stevens, PAPosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

    There is a big problem with item loot.

    When it comes to raiding, instead of huge monsters dropping epic swords and shields, they should drop crafting schematics and skills / abilities.

    there cannot be a   recipiee only drop is everyone has to be a crafter not everyone wants to be and if everyone is a crafter prices go crazy

     

    and also not everyone wants to kisss the butt of  someone to make something for them there should be a mix with t he crafting stuff being the best or at least more customizeable

     

    Dont get me wrong i do  want crafting to be  important just not the only option.

     

    Here is a  good choice in between  both crafter friendly and  loot n go crowd have generic armor drop but able to customize and upgrade it via crafting

  • Dexter2010Dexter2010 Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 244Member Common
    Thanks Aviggin.
  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by craftseeker

    While I never felt this, and in fact like the idea of Item Decay, you have to recognise it is not going to happen.  Too many people would scream and stamp there feet about it.  As a consequence the developer would either abandon the idea or pretty soon the game would be reduced to a slowly dying niche game.

    Decay is durability. It is wear and tear. Most MMOs already have it.

    We talk about item decay here, not item durability.

    Item decay is permanent.

    Durability is repairable. Personally I would leave it out as well, but meh, its not killing anything. While item decay kills itemization.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adamantine
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by craftseeker

    While I never felt this, and in fact like the idea of Item Decay, you have to recognise it is not going to happen.  Too many people would scream and stamp there feet about it.  As a consequence the developer would either abandon the idea or pretty soon the game would be reduced to a slowly dying niche game.

    Decay is durability. It is wear and tear. Most MMOs already have it.

    We talk about item decay here, not item durability.

    Item decay is permanent.

    Durability is repairable. Personally I would leave it out as well, but meh, its not killing anything. While item decay kills itemization.

    Item loss is permanent. Item decay is wear and tear. It is one of several possible paths to loss

    "Durability is repairable" is a false assumption, as well, as UO and other older MMOs had durability that ended in loss.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member

    OP, I'm sure there will be alot more pages to follow in this thread, but good luck.

    The time of multi-faceted MMORPGs died in 2005.  The time of aspects of gaming outside of NPC-Whack-A-Mole combat is long gone.  The idea of 1 trick pony, always online required SPRPGs (i.e. modern MMORPGs) has long been a fad and will not let up.   Hell, the idea of reinforcing ANY gameplay outside of combat will be met by hostile fire from today's "Massive Multiplayer Online" RPG populace.  [Unless you're talking about PVP.  There's been a trend of PVP going the way of Crafting by developers increasingly marginalizing it.]

    This thread proves that point.

    OP, I hear where you're coming from, but that day will not come.  Not the way the currents have been moving in the genre, which has been going on for almost 10 years now.

    The chances of you seeing this type of play, especially from a big-name developer and publisher, is remote.  The chances of this happening in AAA releases is smaller than me getting off work today, winning the lottery and becoming a multi-billionaire, and coming home to find both Scarlett Johanssen and Kate Upton eagerly waiting for me at home in lingerie... with a wonderful, well cooked meal.

    In short... it's not happening, no matter how much I'd like it to.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Warmaker

    OP, I'm sure there will be alot more pages to follow in this thread, but good luck.

    The time of multi-faceted MMORPGs died in 2005.  The time of aspects of gaming outside of NPC-Whack-A-Mole combat is long gone.  The idea of 1 trick pony, always online required SPRPGs (i.e. modern MMORPGs) has long been a fad and will not let up.   Hell, the idea of reinforcing ANY gameplay outside of combat will be met by hostile fire from today's "Massive Multiplayer Online" RPG populace.

    This thread proves that point.

    OP, I hear where you're coming from, but that day will not come.  Not the way the currents have been moving in the genre, which has been going on for almost 10 years now.

    The chances of you seeing this type of play, especially from a big-name developer and publisher, is remote.  The chances of this happening in AAA releases is smaller than me getting off work today, winning the lottery and becoming a multi-billionaire, and coming home to find both Scarlett Johanssen and Kate Upton eagerly waiting for me at home in lingerie... with a wonderful, well cooked meal.

    In short... it's not happening, no matter how much I'd like it to.

    There was a certain somber note to all that, and I think for the most part you're correct. I'm not giving up hope, though.

    The second part of that post, though, is definitely mental imagery to kickstart a day. Thanks! image

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Warmaker

     

    The time of multi-faceted MMORPGs died in 2005.  The time of aspects of gaming outside of NPC-Whack-A-Mole combat is long gone.  The idea of 1 trick pony, always online required SPRPGs (i.e. modern MMORPGs) has long been a fad and will not let up.   Hell, the idea of reinforcing ANY gameplay outside of combat will be met by hostile fire from today's "Massive Multiplayer Online" RPG populace.  [Unless you're talking about PVP.  There's been a trend of PVP going the way of Crafting by developers increasingly marginalizing it.]

    You make it sound like it is a bad thing. It is a matter of perspective. If you like combat centric games, it is a good thing.

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Warmaker

     

    The time of multi-faceted MMORPGs died in 2005.  The time of aspects of gaming outside of NPC-Whack-A-Mole combat is long gone.  The idea of 1 trick pony, always online required SPRPGs (i.e. modern MMORPGs) has long been a fad and will not let up.   Hell, the idea of reinforcing ANY gameplay outside of combat will be met by hostile fire from today's "Massive Multiplayer Online" RPG populace.  [Unless you're talking about PVP.  There's been a trend of PVP going the way of Crafting by developers increasingly marginalizing it.]

    You make it sound like it is a bad thing. It is a matter of perspective. If you like combat centric games, it is a good thing.

    The notion of a combat-centric MMORPG is not bad at all.  The notion that pretty much almost all MMORPGs are, especially from big name developers / companies, it is a terribly bad thing. Most especially so when there is literally nothing else to do.  Good combat systems and a multi-faceted MMORPG were, once upon a time, possible in the same game.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

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