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Should MMOs remove the death penalty?

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  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    The trend I see which I do not like:

    no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

    This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

    What game are you talking about. MOST games i have played (WOW, DCUO, STO, ...), the boss reset if you wipe. So you cannot zerg.

    Heck, even in a non-MMO like D3, bosses reset (not elite/champion .. but bosses).

     

    GW2

  • slobkingslobking Ashaway, RIPosts: 4Member
    Death Penalty like original EQ. Die and go find your corpse. No map and no sure fire way to get to it. Die on the way and you are a retard.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    The trend I see which I do not like:

    no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

    This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

    What game are you talking about. MOST games i have played (WOW, DCUO, STO, ...), the boss reset if you wipe. So you cannot zerg.

    Heck, even in a non-MMO like D3, bosses reset (not elite/champion .. but bosses).

     

    GW2

    So how is ONE game make a trend?

  • supertouchmesupertouchme corpus christi, TXPosts: 68Member
    i suggest people read about the psychology of mmos and why most people play them. they afford you the opportunity to live out a fantasy and death penalties enhance your experience in the fantasy world.
  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    The trend I see which I do not like:

    no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

    This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

    What game are you talking about. MOST games i have played (WOW, DCUO, STO, ...), the boss reset if you wipe. So you cannot zerg.

    Heck, even in a non-MMO like D3, bosses reset (not elite/champion .. but bosses).

     

    GW2

    So how is ONE game make a trend?

    GW2 - y'know, the 'wave' of the future.....

    + WoW's 'death buff' = a trend.

    Let's not, get bogged down in that though;

    My only point has been this:

    I believe a game is most fun when encounters take skill, coordination, tactics and strategy to 'prevail'. I believe, if a game is designed well, all of the incentive and reward will be placed on that philosophy.

    The nature of that incentive has been 'a death penalty' in various degrees for years in mmo's.

    The one's with light death penalties often don't give me the incentive to be careful when reaching an encounter, because, there are no consequences if I go Leeroy Jenkins. 

    I believe there can be other incentives other than a death penalty. 

    I'm just saying that I need a mechanic that incentivizes 'doing it right' rather than 'doing it over'.

    Like it or not, Pavlov and B.F. Skinner agree with me. Incentive for reward produces the desired behavior.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Ugh...the inconvenience rebuttal again.

    Death penalty with some substance (xp loss or gear damage) makes that fight that much more exciting and scary for many people. That sense of what could happen if you lose, Sure, if you die it really sucks...but if you win, it's that much more gratifying.

    Death penalty with some substance makes you think before you act. Otherwise you can just Rambo into a fray because if you die nothing happens. That's just boring...to me anyways. Should be consequences for stupidity...like rushing a group of 6 enemies solo and expecting to come out unscathed.

    Yeah like it is better when nobody takes ANY risks and only take on engagements they are absolutely sure they will win. How exciting is that?

    Death penalty is a cheap thrill. I'd rather have the game rely on gameplay for fun. Gameplay, atleast, is fun for everyone.

    Taking on engagements with little to no risk is personal preference and doesn't effect everyone. Boring to me, but some just don't have the cojones to make it interesting. But many like a challenge of taking on mobs lvls higher than them, or groups of them. I do it all the time.

    Especially when you know if you fail, you FAIL via xp loss, or some other form of death penalty beyond a respawn as a ghost and safely retrieve your gear with a tiny inconvenience of maybe the travel back to where you were. Which in most cases isn't an issue either with all the various forms of instant travel, flying mounts, etc.

    Taking away death penalty with some sting ruins it for EVERYONE. It's a double edged sword.

     

    Could just as easily say being able to go through the game to cap with little to no fear of death is a cheap thrill too. Depends on your outlook and playstyle.

  • MurdusMurdus bayville, NYPosts: 698Member
    Originally posted by Nibs

    Without a death penalty where's the risk in combat?

    Without a death penalty death just becomes another means of fast travel (it already is in WoW).

    Without a death penalty where's the rush from surviving an epic fight?

    Having permadeath in an MMO is insanely fun.

  • OlgarkOlgark BostonPosts: 319Member Uncommon

    No the death penalty should not be removed. I like the old UO system and EQ1 where if you died you had to run to get your equipment back. In UO you had to hope that the players or monsters that killed you don't loot your corpse. i find death penalties in MMO's to be lacking and I wish they was tougher on the players.

    I can't wait for CCP to release WoD mmo with perma death as a mechanic. If I die in a game I want harsh penalties, I dont want some mechanic to hold my hand, as you will never learn how to play the game.

    I also want to see MMO's go back to breaking equipment so you players have to carry spare weapons and armour with them when on long dungeon crawls. MMO's have become way to easy of late and the masses now expect everything to fed to them because they demand it.

    WoW has destroyed the market with its carebear handling of its players.

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Murdus
    Originally posted by Nibs

    Without a death penalty where's the risk in combat?

    Without a death penalty death just becomes another means of fast travel (it already is in WoW).

    Without a death penalty where's the rush from surviving an epic fight?

    Having permadeath in an MMO is insanely fun.

    To you. Fun is not the same for everyone. That is why it should be an option.

    BTW, did you play D3? It has perma death.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    Originally posted by WillyMMORPG In Everquest 1, way back when, the death penalty was brutal. You'd lose a considerable amount of experience and could actually de-level, thus losing level based spells and level restricted gear. A friend of mine got adventurous and went to an EQ1 zone right after leveling because he was a wizard and got the portal spell to travel their automatically. Because EQ1 devs were sadistic bastages, that zone had pockets of high level mobs mixed in with the more level appropriate monsters. This friend was out exploring the zone and ran into an island populated with spectres who were twice the level of the rest of the monsters in that zone (36ish compared to 16-18 normal mobs -- it was that Oasis area near Freeport in case you were wondering). Well, long story not-so-short -- my friend died horribly, one shotted by a nasty group of spectres and (of course) was bound in Qeynos on the other side of the continent. He also de-leveled from 16 to 15, thereby making his level 16 portal spell to the Oasis no longer available. Oh, and in EQ1, your items remained on your body at point of death, so he was looking at walking through about 6-8 zones, "naked" to get back to Oasis, because in those days, you couldn't find someone willing to port a level 15 character, who was broke, out of the goodness of their heart. Luckily, some actual kind soul in Oasis, who was a cleric resurrected my friend back to his body, he was able to loot his stuff, but had to remain in the area for an hour or so killing level appropriate stuff to get his level (and spells) back. Guess what? He never again got curious about new zones without first getting a couple bubbles of experience buffer.
    thx for this friend, too bad this kinda of rich story doesnt happen anymore. lets translates for nowadays models

    " ur friend gained 2 lvls on the last 5 minutes and clicked "M" to take a look on the map, then he cliked in one of a million teleports on map and zing he is there with a lot of static mobs with a npc with a "!" on its head, he cliks the npc "oh pls mighty hero these lvl 20 hellishchickens are beating the crap outta of me kill 10 of them and return for a reward ( a piece of shit gear that will last 1 lvl)..." return to npc, "oh might leet hero i lost my googles please find for me!" ur friend click at the foot of the npc and take the google * click the npc to deliver ( advance 1 more lvl...



    WillyMMORPG, great story. I played EQ in those times and accomplishments felt epic!

    TsaboHavoc, omg that is so true. ROFL. Haven't laughed that hard in a while. Brilliantly spoken and dead-on.

    Olgard I totally agree with you too! What game is your pic from? Looks cool.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    Originally posted by WillyMMORPG

    In Everquest 1, way back when, the death penalty was brutal. You'd lose a considerable amount of experience and could actually de-level, thus losing level based spells and level restricted gear.

     

    A friend of mine got adventurous and went to an EQ1 zone right after leveling because he was a wizard and got the portal spell to travel their automatically. Because EQ1 devs were sadistic bastages, that zone had pockets of high level mobs mixed in with the more level appropriate monsters. This friend was out exploring the zone and ran into an island populated with spectres who were twice the level of the rest of the monsters in that zone (36ish compared to 16-18 normal mobs -- it was that Oasis area near Freeport in case you were wondering).

     

    Well, long story not-so-short -- my friend died horribly, one shotted by a nasty group of spectres and (of course) was bound in Qeynos on the other side of the continent. He also de-leveled from 16 to 15, thereby making his level 16 portal spell to the Oasis no longer available. Oh, and in EQ1, your items remained on your body at point of death, so he was looking at walking through about 6-8 zones, "naked" to get back to Oasis, because in those days, you couldn't find someone willing to port a level 15 character, who was broke, out of the goodness of their heart.

     

    Luckily, some actual kind soul in Oasis, who was a cleric resurrected my friend back to his body, he was able to loot his stuff, but had to remain in the area for an hour or so killing level appropriate stuff to get his level (and spells) back. Guess what? He never again got curious about new zones without first getting a couple bubbles of experience buffer.

     

    thx for this friend, too bad this kinda of rich story doesnt happen anymore.  lets translates for nowadays models

    " ur friend gained 2 lvls on the last 5 minutes and clicked "M" to take a look on the map, then he cliked in one of a million teleports on map and zing he is there with a lot of static mobs with a npc with a "!" on its head, he cliks the npc "oh pls mighty hero these lvl 20 hellishchickens are beating the crap outta of me kill 10 of them and return for a reward ( a piece of shit gear that will last 1 lvl)..." return to npc, "oh might leet hero i lost my googles please find for me!" ur friend click at the foot of the npc and take the google * click the npc to deliver ( advance 1 more lvl...

    How is that even a story? There is no lore context. Essentially, he died and was screwed by the game, and someone helps.

    How is that different than we wipe 20 times, and some kind godly tank arrives, and help us to kill the boss?

    I was there .. i remember the spectres (you kite them around for single kills .. because they gave the best xp). Very boring grinding mob game with frustrating like ... oh i lose xp, now i have to kite some more spectres?

    I am glad those days are over.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Permadeath is not fun, but there should always be a penalty for rushing in blindly into a fight and getting killed. Experience loss was one of the best things about EQ1 because it actually matters where you went and how you went about things. Nowadays a death costs you 10 seconds to time. The entire thought process is gone from staying alive because there isn't a real penalty.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Permadeath is not fun, but there should always be a penalty for rushing in blindly into a fight and getting killed. Experience loss was one of the best things about EQ1 because it actually matters where you went and how you went about things. Nowadays a death costs you 10 seconds to time. The entire thought process is gone from staying alive because there isn't a real penalty.

    The many players who play D3 hard core would disagree.

    Personally it is not fun for me, so i don't play hard core mode. But obviously there are those who find it fun.

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by supertouchme
    no

    /thread

    /thread again

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Maybe they should just remove death, no child left behind.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Move the slider up the rewards become better and better.  You're risking more and receiving more.

    Can't have hardcoded loot tables though. :stare Blizzard:

    I wonder how often gamers realise just how many things are the way they are, not for well thought out game design reasons, but for cost/benefit--it was just easier to code that fast and dirty.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Dexter2010Dexter2010 Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 244Member Common
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Should MMOs remove the death penalty? It never really made sense to me. Especially in the older MMOs.

     

    You are dead! Lose 25% of your stats and/or skills! (usually a debuff for x amount of minutes or needing to earn x amount of exp/kill x amount of monsters to remove it)

     

    This never made sense. Okay, so I die...I lose 25% of my ability...how am I supposed to kill anything to remove the debuff? Even if it is just 30 minutes...that just means I can't play for 30 minutes? Especially since most MMOs penalize you for killing weaker stuff than your level/skill...so...this seems very counter beneficial

     I too dislike the penalty but it's a way for devs to prolong your gaming experience or sub. Too weak to fight now? You have to continue later.

    Then if all your gear is damaged...how are you supposed to continue in a dungeon or a raid or do anything? gear is very important in almost all MMOs...I guess go and repair it...but usually...ESPECIALLY for tanks...its so expensive, sometimes you cant even afford to repair it all.

     I've had many people turn down group activities because they couldn't afford the anticipated repair bill, usually after a recent purchase. Imagine, you bought new gear but can't afford to use it.

    And then it runs into the same problem as losing stats/skills...but even worse...because gear is usually way more important...so without fully repaired items, again...you are penalized so much, you can't do anything.

     

    So going back to the original question...should MMOs remove the death penalty? Or, at least change it to something that still lets you...you know...still play the game even if you die?

    Definitely get rid of it! When was the last time you heard someone say "Woohoo! I got rez sickness! I'll join you in another 10 min." Or "I'm repeatedly committing suicide because my repair bills cost too little." In WoW, people try to retrieve their bodies to minimize damage.

  • Mari2kMari2k rzhz, MNPosts: 371Member

    losing progress in mmos is always bad, that make ma want to shut down the game.

    The best penalty was in CoH, remember dept-brothers ? :-)

  • wesjrwesjr Gilbert, AZPosts: 365Member Uncommon

    I feel the lessing of death is what caused the zerg fest we have now a days.  I remember back in EQ when taking a xp hit was something you went out of your way to avoid, not anymore though.

     

    You would spend time and plat to get a cleric to come rez you!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by wesjr

    I feel the lessing of death is what caused the zerg fest we have now a days.  I remember back in EQ when taking a xp hit was something you went out of your way to avoid, not anymore though.

     

    You would spend time and plat to get a cleric to come rez you!

    Zerg fest is *good*. You would rather players be timid and do nothing most of the time, than rushing into battle and try out the new skills?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Move the slider up the rewards become better and better.  You're risking more and receiving more.

    Can't have hardcoded loot tables though. :stare Blizzard:

    I wonder how often gamers realise just how many things are the way they are, not for well thought out game design reasons, but for cost/benefit--it was just easier to code that fast and dirty.

    What hardcoded loot tables? Last time i played Diablo 3, you can adjust drop rates by changing difficulty levels. Last time I play WOW, i can choose a different level of raid for different level of drops.

  • wesjrwesjr Gilbert, AZPosts: 365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by wesjr

    I feel the lessing of death is what caused the zerg fest we have now a days.  I remember back in EQ when taking a xp hit was something you went out of your way to avoid, not anymore though.

     

    You would spend time and plat to get a cleric to come rez you!

    Zerg fest is *good*. You would rather players be timid and do nothing most of the time, than rushing into battle and try out the new skills?

    I would prefer they learn that new skill before they join a raid or just 'rush' into battle.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Permadeath is not fun, but there should always be a penalty for rushing in blindly into a fight and getting killed. Experience loss was one of the best things about EQ1 because it actually matters where you went and how you went about things. Nowadays a death costs you 10 seconds to time. The entire thought process is gone from staying alive because there isn't a real penalty.

    The many players who play D3 hard core would disagree.

    Personally it is not fun for me, so i don't play hard core mode. But obviously there are those who find it fun.

    We are talking about MMO's not ARPGs, thanks.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    Let's resurrect I-D-D-Q-D.  Then we can all brag about our l33t skillz.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • MykellMykell MackayPosts: 618Member Uncommon

    Rather than a one size fits all i would rather see differing death penalties in all games. Of course mass market mmo's means catering to the widest possible audience which is why you see death penalties watered down so much.

    It won't be long before some smart developer starts rewarding people for dying.

    Playing Path of Exile has made me realise how much i actually miss the old days. A decent death penalty means i am more considered in how i play rather than trying to Rambo through everything. It's nice to have to turn tail and run for your life trying to survive rather than just going down swinging, respawning and charging back into the mobs for another go.

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