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Should MMOs remove the death penalty?

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,998Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by apocoluster
     Depends on the game. 

     Likely yes.

    Other than video games can you think of a game with a penalty other than not advancing when you lose?

    Fraternity Drinking games? All I could come up with, of the top of my head, outside the realm of video games.

     Haha.  You win.

    How about... chess?  Think about it, lose a piece, (without a corresponding trade) and you are now penalized for the rest of the game in playing in a handicapped position, unless you can somehow turn the tide you'll likely lose the game.

    Or perhaps if you've ever played make it, take it basketball, the side who scores gets the ball back again until the other side can take it from them.

    Speaking of basketball, foul too many times and you are taken out of the game, and your teammates suffer.

    I could go on, but there's all sorts of examples in gaming and sports where there is a long term penalty for "failing" in some fashion so MMO's aren't the only things to include this.

    And let's not forget about real life, plenty of examples of long term penalties for failure, including true permadeath.image

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.

    Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot.  After all, winning should be it's own reward too.  You risk nothing you gain nothing.

    Move the slider up the rewards become better and better.  You're risking more and receiving more.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by apocoluster
     Depends on the game. 

     Likely yes.

    Other than video games can you think of a game with a penalty other than not advancing when you lose?

    Fraternity Drinking games? All I could come up with, of the top of my head, outside the realm of video games.

     Haha.  You win.

    How about... chess?  Think about it, lose a piece, (without a corresponding trade) and you are now penalized for the rest of the game in playing in a handicapped position, unless you can somehow turn the tide you'll likely lose the game.

    Or perhaps if you've ever played make it, take it basketball, the side who scores gets the ball back again until the other side can take it from them.

    Speaking of basketball, foul too many times and you are taken out of the game, and your teammates suffer.

    I could go on, but there's all sorts of examples in gaming and sports where there is a long term penalty for "failing" in some fashion so MMO's aren't the only things to include this.

    And let's not forget about real life, plenty of examples of long term penalties for failure, including true permadeath.image

     

     IMO chess is a single encounter, losing a peice is like losing hitpoints while you in a pve/pvp match.  When the chess match is done thats it, nothing further.  When you die in an MMO with a penalty, something happens that makes the next round harder.  In chess this would be akin to starting the game with less pecies. 

    A foul in basketball is for breaking the rules, not for losing the game.  When the other team loses the basketball game, nothing happens to them to make it harder to play again, they just don't advance to the next round.  Starting the game with less palyers, or a handicap to make it harder to play would be a penalty akin to MMO Penalty

    In RL there are many thing that are penalties, those aren't games though.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Nibs
    Originally posted by FallguyArmy
    ...So again, I ask, what benefits do death penalities have in improving your character in an MMO?

    Why on earth should death, failure improve your character?

    What's next? Purples for not completing the raid? Levelling from 1st - end game by not playing?

    Death should sting. Death should be an inconvenience. You should have a reason to avoid death.

    If death improved your character, wha...I...I don't even know what to say...

    I take it you haven't heard then, about WOW's new plan to reward PUG DF groups who wipe with increasing 10% buff bonuses up to like 50 or maybe 90% to help them complete the content?  True story actually.

     

    Really? Is it an option or are they giving the buff to everyone whether you want it or not?

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dave6660

    How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.

    Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot.  After all, winning should be it's own reward too.  You risk nothing you gain nothing.

    Move the slider up the rewards become better and better.  You're risking more and receiving more.

     Possibly.  What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by dave6660

    How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.

    Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot.  After all, winning should be it's own reward too.  You risk nothing you gain nothing.

    Move the slider up the rewards become better and better.  You're risking more and receiving more.

     Possibly.  What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).

    You get XP.  Shouldn't winning be it own reward though?  I keep hearing that death alone is it's own penalty.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Nibs
    Originally posted by FallguyArmy
    ...So again, I ask, what benefits do death penalities have in improving your character in an MMO?

    Why on earth should death, failure improve your character?

    What's next? Purples for not completing the raid? Levelling from 1st - end game by not playing?

    Death should sting. Death should be an inconvenience. You should have a reason to avoid death.

    If death improved your character, wha...I...I don't even know what to say...

    I take it you haven't heard then, about WOW's new plan to reward PUG DF groups who wipe with increasing 10% buff bonuses up to like 50 or maybe 90% to help them complete the content?  True story actually.

     

    Really? Is it an option or are they giving the buff to everyone whether you want it or not?

     

     With WoW I'm guessing they want everyone to get to end game quickly to participate in the end game activites.  From that end the buff makes sense.

    Stupid IMO, death shouldn't be penalized but definatley not rewarded.  Of course I don't do end game activities either so the whole thing is wacky to me.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by FallguyArmy
    I think a better question to ask is, "What benefits do death penalties have in the progression of character leveling in MMOs?"

    it's simple.

     

    let's say a questgiver asks you to kill he scary wolf that's terrorizing the village.

     

    the developers can easily make a wolf. It's not very easy to make the wolf scary though.

     

    but if the wolf can kill you can dying sucks...suddenly the wolf just got scary a little, didn't it ?

    Not remotely.  If the wolf gets to be more dangerous than it's worth, that the benefit of killing it don't significantly outweigh the potential costs of killing it, then I'll tell the questgiver where to shove his quest.  If the whole game is like that, I'll go find something else to play.

    I don't give a damn about scary wolves, I want a game that's fun to play.

    and what makes it fun for you, then ?

    everyone wants a fun game to play, but that doesn't mean they want the same thing.

     

    interesting isn't it ?

    image

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by dave6660

    How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.

    Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot.  After all, winning should be it's own reward too.  You risk nothing you gain nothing.

    Move the slider up the rewards become better and better.  You're risking more and receiving more.

     Possibly.  What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).

    You get XP.  Shouldn't winning be it own reward though?  I keep hearing that death alone is it's own penalty.

     If the gameplay is fun enough, xp is just fine.  When I lose I have to do it again, that is a penalty that is incurred by dieing. 

    If the gameplay is borderline, as in most MMO's, xp is not enough.  There should be a reason to want to kill it in the first place.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
     

    and what makes it fun for you, then ?

    everyone wants a fun game to play, but that doesn't mean they want the same thing.

     

    interesting isn't it ?

    That is why difficulty options, and options about death penalty is a good thing. Each player can choose their level of risk/challenge and reward.

     

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    It depend on the game.  If the game is dungeon raid focus I dont' think it should have high death penalty.  If the game is focus on the world itself it could have high death penalty.

    Those game focus on raiding have unavoidable death.  And players are already punished by wipe after wipe of getting nothing.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by dave6660 How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself. Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot. After all, winning should be it's own reward too. You risk nothing you gain nothing. Move the slider up the rewards become better and better. You're risking more and receiving more.
    Possibly. What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).
    You get XP. Shouldn't winning be it own reward though? I keep hearing that death alone is it's own penalty.

    True. If death is its own penalty then success should it its own reward. Like your slider idea too. Fresh ideas to an age old problem are always welcome.

    Someone mentioned humans respond better to positive reinforcement, so I posted weeks ago about a stay-alive-bonus rather than death-penalty. Perhaps an xp or stat buff. That could work.

    Your post made me think of something different. How about dying costs the player coin (silver, gold, plat). Most games lack sufficient money sinks so this kills two birds with one stone. For lore, just have the Church be some all-seeing power that ressurects the dead for a set fee which can be avoided if a player can do the ressurection.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,442Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by dave6660

    How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.

    Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot.  After all, winning should be it's own reward too.  You risk nothing you gain nothing.

    Move the slider up the rewards become better and better.  You're risking more and receiving more.

     Possibly.  What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).

    You get XP.  Shouldn't winning be it own reward though?  I keep hearing that death alone is it's own penalty.

     If the gameplay is fun enough, xp is just fine.  When I lose I have to do it again, that is a penalty that is incurred by dieing. 

    If the gameplay is borderline, as in most MMO's, xp is not enough.  There should be a reason to want to kill it in the first place.

    With that stance, death penalties can be severe as long as the gameplay more than makes up for it. Who cares if that death was a setback when the gameplay is so fun. Great replayablity and perma-death could be an option.

    I do agree with the sentiment, if the game is boring, brutal death penalties don't improve that fact that it is still boring.

     

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    How about... chess?  Think about it, lose a piece, (without a corresponding trade) and you are now penalized for the rest of the game in playing in a handicapped position, unless you can somehow turn the tide you'll likely lose the game.

    Or perhaps if you've ever played make it, take it basketball, the side who scores gets the ball back again until the other side can take it from them.

    Speaking of basketball, foul too many times and you are taken out of the game, and your teammates suffer.

    I could go on, but there's all sorts of examples in gaming and sports where there is a long term penalty for "failing" in some fashion so MMO's aren't the only things to include this.

    And let's not forget about real life, plenty of examples of long term penalties for failure, including true permadeath.image

     

     IMO chess is a single encounter, losing a peice is like losing hitpoints while you in a pve/pvp match.  When the chess match is done thats it, nothing further.  When you die in an MMO with a penalty, something happens that makes the next round harder.  In chess this would be akin to starting the game with less pecies. 

    A foul in basketball is for breaking the rules, not for losing the game.  When the other team loses the basketball game, nothing happens to them to make it harder to play again, they just don't advance to the next round.  Starting the game with less palyers, or a handicap to make it harder to play would be a penalty akin to MMO Penalty

    In RL there are many thing that are penalties, those aren't games though.

    I think the key point of contention is what exactly do we consider 'the game' and 'singlr encounter' in a MMORPG. 

    I prefer to think of a single encounter as the time between the combat starting and the game deciding that my character is out-of-combat and allowing me regenerate health and mana fully.  Failure penalties should persist throughout the encounter but should end when the encounter is over  ie if I fail to dodge, I get a debuff while the fight lasts but lose it when the fight ends. 

    Death penalties extend the failure penalties incurred in one encounter to another encounter. 

    I think death penalty advocates see the entire MMORPG 'life' (ie from character creation till they quit the game) as a single encounter and thus want the failure penalties persist.  While this is an intereseting game design concept, I do not see it having much appeal to me since I am a believer in learning from your mistakes and then trying again with a clean slate.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,442Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by dave6660 How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself. Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot. After all, winning should be it's own reward too. You risk nothing you gain nothing. Move the slider up the rewards become better and better. You're risking more and receiving more.
    Possibly. What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).
    You get XP. Shouldn't winning be it own reward though? I keep hearing that death alone is it's own penalty.

     

    True. If death is its own penalty then success should it its own reward. Like your slider idea too. Fresh ideas to an age old problem are always welcome.

    Someone mentioned humans respond better to positive reinforcement, so I posted weeks ago about a stay-alive-bonus rather than death-penalty. Perhaps an xp or stat buff. That could work.

    Your post made me think of something different. How about dying costs the player coin (silver, gold, plat). Most games lack sufficient money sinks so this kills two birds with one stone. For lore, just have the Church be some all-seeing power that ressurects the dead for a set fee which can be avoided if a player can do the ressurection.

    In the first few months of Aion, deaths were very expensive to recovery from. If you died you recieved an XP loss and a debuff but it could be recovered & removed by a soul mendor. People that died often would continue to rack up a very expensive mendor fee and simply not pay it off. Then sit through the long debuff. I'm not sure if they learned to play more cautiously. Of course later the recover cost was greatly reduced.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoguy43
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by dave6660

    How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.

    Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot.  After all, winning should be it's own reward too.  You risk nothing you gain nothing.

    Move the slider up the rewards become better and better.  You're risking more and receiving more.

     Possibly.  What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).

    You get XP.  Shouldn't winning be it own reward though?  I keep hearing that death alone is it's own penalty.

     If the gameplay is fun enough, xp is just fine.  When I lose I have to do it again, that is a penalty that is incurred by dieing. 

    If the gameplay is borderline, as in most MMO's, xp is not enough.  There should be a reason to want to kill it in the first place.

    With that stance, death penalties can be severe as long as the gameplay more than makes up for it. Who cares if that death was a setback when the gameplay is so fun. Great replayablity and perma-death could be an option.

    I do agree with the sentiment, if the game is boring, brutal death penalties don't improve that fact that it is still boring.

     

     I agree.  If the gameplay is fun then repeating content is ok, typically however repeating content isn't that fun.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • WillyMMORPGWillyMMORPG Texarkana, TXPosts: 78Member

    In Everquest 1, way back when, the death penalty was brutal. You'd lose a considerable amount of experience and could actually de-level, thus losing level based spells and level restricted gear.

     

    A friend of mine got adventurous and went to an EQ1 zone right after leveling because he was a wizard and got the portal spell to travel their automatically. Because EQ1 devs were sadistic bastages, that zone had pockets of high level mobs mixed in with the more level appropriate monsters. This friend was out exploring the zone and ran into an island populated with spectres who were twice the level of the rest of the monsters in that zone (36ish compared to 16-18 normal mobs -- it was that Oasis area near Freeport in case you were wondering).

     

    Well, long story not-so-short -- my friend died horribly, one shotted by a nasty group of spectres and (of course) was bound in Qeynos on the other side of the continent. He also de-leveled from 16 to 15, thereby making his level 16 portal spell to the Oasis no longer available. Oh, and in EQ1, your items remained on your body at point of death, so he was looking at walking through about 6-8 zones, "naked" to get back to Oasis, because in those days, you couldn't find someone willing to port a level 15 character, who was broke, out of the goodness of their heart.

     

    Luckily, some actual kind soul in Oasis, who was a cleric resurrected my friend back to his body, he was able to loot his stuff, but had to remain in the area for an hour or so killing level appropriate stuff to get his level (and spells) back. Guess what? He never again got curious about new zones without first getting a couple bubbles of experience buffer.

     

  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by WillyMMORPG

    In Everquest 1, way back when, the death penalty was brutal. You'd lose a considerable amount of experience and could actually de-level, thus losing level based spells and level restricted gear.

     

    A friend of mine got adventurous and went to an EQ1 zone right after leveling because he was a wizard and got the portal spell to travel their automatically. Because EQ1 devs were sadistic bastages, that zone had pockets of high level mobs mixed in with the more level appropriate monsters. This friend was out exploring the zone and ran into an island populated with spectres who were twice the level of the rest of the monsters in that zone (36ish compared to 16-18 normal mobs -- it was that Oasis area near Freeport in case you were wondering).

     

    Well, long story not-so-short -- my friend died horribly, one shotted by a nasty group of spectres and (of course) was bound in Qeynos on the other side of the continent. He also de-leveled from 16 to 15, thereby making his level 16 portal spell to the Oasis no longer available. Oh, and in EQ1, your items remained on your body at point of death, so he was looking at walking through about 6-8 zones, "naked" to get back to Oasis, because in those days, you couldn't find someone willing to port a level 15 character, who was broke, out of the goodness of their heart.

     

    Luckily, some actual kind soul in Oasis, who was a cleric resurrected my friend back to his body, he was able to loot his stuff, but had to remain in the area for an hour or so killing level appropriate stuff to get his level (and spells) back. Guess what? He never again got curious about new zones without first getting a couple bubbles of experience buffer.

     

    thx for this friend, too bad this kinda of rich story doesnt happen anymore.  lets translates for nowadays models

    " ur friend gained 2 lvls on the last 5 minutes and clicked "M" to take a look on the map, then he cliked in one of a million teleports on map and zing he is there with a lot of static mobs with a npc with a "!" on its head, he cliks the npc "oh pls mighty hero these lvl 20 hellishchickens are beating the crap outta of me kill 10 of them and return for a reward ( a piece of shit gear that will last 1 lvl)..." return to npc, "oh might leet hero i lost my googles please find for me!" ur friend click at the foot of the npc and take the google * click the npc to deliver ( advance 1 more lvl...

  • BonecrusherBonecrusher AnkaraPosts: 3Member

    Some people's arguments about death penalty are really really weird...

    1) "Death penalty gives us more adrenaline".

    Why? losing %25 XP, %25 gear durability or %25 stats for a duration is not THAT important feature. The fight gives you adrenaline and excitement, not the penalty at the end of the battle. Do you want proof? Many Multiplayer FPS, TPS and similar combat games have no "death penalty"  but you still get excitement playing them. Quake 3, TF2, Jedi Outcast, DOTA, Battlefield 3 are some of the examples. Death's itself is a penalty, you lose frag, you lose time, you lose points... You don't also need to have extra penalty after death.

    2) "New games have no death penalty."

    Actually they do. Games like WoW were using a gear durability loss after death. So if you die a few times before repairing your gear (for example during a dungeon instance), your items will broke and you will not use them in that battle. Most of the game have a time loss penalty due to death. If you are not playing instaspawn games like Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, Modern Warfare etc, you will have to wait from seconds up to a minute (TF2, DOTA, WoW, Counter-Strike, Awesomenauts...) before returning to the battle. You will wait respawn time, and run back to the combat zone. Waiting time is a death penalty. Another death penalty is, your team friends will be alone during that duration, this will give disadvantage to your team.

    3) "NO!!!"

    Why not? As in the Loktofeit's chicken argument, it can change from game to game. Yes, death in EVE gives you a heavy penalty, but this penalty is very suitable inside the gameplay. Game's itself built according to that death system. But think about WoW, Quake Live or similar games. What if your game was blocked 15 minutes and you were not allowed to played the game each time you die. Think about this, In some MMOs, chickens really enhance the environment. In others, the chickens are out of place. In some MMOs, the chickens are just plain annoying. So you need to plan the death penalty according your game's own gameplay and rules.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    Whether it is a death penalty to me is irrelevent.

    There should be real and tangible motivation for living.

    If the game lacks incentive for staying alive and winning battles, I'm not sure it meets the requirements of being a game anymore.

     What other games penalize you for losing.  They lose, they don't advance till they win.  Sometimes they may have to wait for the next competition but they don't make the competition harder just because you lost.  Thats it.

    I didn't say anything about being penalized for losing.

    I said a game needed incentive to stay alive.

    Think outside the box.

     No but you did say you weren't sure it meets the requirements of a game.  The incentive for not dying in an MMO is the same as any other game, you don't advance till you successfully complete the encounter, or do a different encounter.  Simple. 

    The incentive is dying sucks, having to redo the content sucks, not advancing sucks.

    Just saying think outside the box means you are trapped in the box.

    .....ok, you are still misunderstanding me.

    I don't think a game needs a death penalty.  I can imagine scenarios where there is in fact no death penalty. 

    But if that is the case, I believe the game needs to have an incentive to stay alive/beat the content/survive the encounter.

    These incentives could be any number of mechanics.

    The trend I see which I do not like:

    no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

    This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

    In addition, now WoW is adding a death 'buff'. To me, that not only has crossed the line, it has removed all incentive to take down the boss 'as intended'. Now the intent is not to 'win the encounter' it is to 'push through the content'. 

    Blah!

    Don't argue symantics to me about my use of the word 'game'. I'm using it metaphorically, philosophically, subjectively as I see it. I'm not here to parse the literal definition. I was stressing a philosophical point.

     

    I think a game should be designed in such a way that when you have an encounter, there is a tactical coordinated way of winning it requiring individual skills to mesh together just right in order to reach the objective. 

    I believe this is a pretty standard definition of 'team sports', i.e. the purpose of the 'game'. 

    Therefore, I believe that above philosophy should be reinforced and incentivized.

    Too long have devs relied on the 'death penalty' to provide that incentive. For some, it works. but,

    I like to think out of the box.....

    does it have to be a 'death penalty' 

    or would people who beg for punative death penalties actually find themselves happy, 

    just as long as they have 'incentive to win'.

    So, you see, I agree. 

    We do not need death penalties.

    We need incentives to take down the boss in a strategic, coordinated, tactical way without resorting to death, rinse, repeat.

     

  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAPosts: 1,066Member Uncommon
    This should be optional, allow a feature to turn it on or off when you first create your character. It can even be a path your character can pick or allow some form of achievement maybe a title!

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    The trend I see which I do not like:

    no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

    This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

    What game are you talking about. MOST games i have played (WOW, DCUO, STO, ...), the boss reset if you wipe. So you cannot zerg.

    Heck, even in a non-MMO like D3, bosses reset (not elite/champion .. but bosses).

     

  • BonecrusherBonecrusher AnkaraPosts: 3Member
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Well, why not just remove death?  I mean what's the point?  These games already hand you everything else on a silver platter and all but play the game for you.

    Just goes to show there will always be a market for ultra-mega casual/easy solo God Mode MMO games.

    So what? Do we have only two choices?

    1- Either put very harsh very brutal very unforgiving death penalties

    2- or entirely remove dieing and make the player immortal?

    If people play more death forgiving games will it make the game automatically ultra-mega casual / easy god mode game? So you neglect games like Quake, Starcraft or Unreal Tournament?

  • TheJodaTheJoda chicago, ILPosts: 467Member
    No, there is no risk vs reward in todays games.......and that part of the lack luster I believe we have in todays MMO's

    ....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

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