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Gearing treadmill and game immersion
Dexter2010
Member UncommonPosts: 244
How would you improve this experience? I find it's difficult to immerse myself in the world because the act of improving your arsenal is so trite in most games. At present day, gear act as nothing more than lego pieces with stats and little more.
It seems that gear don't change the way you play anymore since it only increase stats so minimally, your combat experience stays the same. Numerous games are like WoW where you try to renew your gear at every level up and you don't get attached anymore. in WoW, you only gain 1-2 strength when upgrading a level 60 weapon with a level 61. In WoW, rare gear may be weaker than uncommom. Why craft when random drops are equal or better? Swords that shoot fireballs don't shoot fireballs; you can't use it at range, and you see no graphical effect. Instead, you rarely see very weak yellow numbers signifying magic damage. How captivating! My mage gained 1 int from lv 82 - 83 but got so much smarter wearing new shoes.
On the subject of crafting, most crafted recipes in WoW are strictly for pvp and have little bearing in pve. Other recipes are forged with random stats so spending all your hard earned mats may yield an unusable piece. Worse yet, you lose all mats and end up with nothing in Aion (and EQ2?) if you fail. Why couldn't you re-smelt the metal after failing?
Even at level cap, you look like you're wearing a quilt unless you're suited in tier gear because devs don't put enough effort in creating random boss drops. In the case of tier gear, Every raider looks the same, how is it possible for every player to have their own Excalibur? Due to having no variety, every X class uses that BIS (best in slot) sword and every Y class wields that BIS wand.
What happened to creative ideas like the Aeleosys Shield from Dragon Warrior that blew away enemies when activated? Armor of Radiance that regen-ed health, or Chestguard of Thorns that made the bearer want to soak up attacks so attackers take damage. The Mirror of Reflection oftenly reflected harmful and helpful spells. The Poison Needle only hits for 1 damage but could instantly kill. In FF6, the Atma Weapon made you keep your health up because life multiplies its damage. The Valiant Knife had the opposite effect. The Fire Shield made fire spells heal you but you take 50% more ice damage. You equipped the Black Belt to retaliate when struck and the Gauntlet to take attacks for others! The Vorpal from the Dark Queen of Krynn can decapitate.You could only wield 1 item but collected them all. Upgrading swords and finding new tools in Zelda was exciting because it offered more strategies.
I say have stats be derived from levels and be customizable (fast cast vs. effectivness) and let gear allow different playstyles and strategies.
Comments
It is alive in well.
Back in WOTLK, there is a staff that has a chance to summon a valkyrie to fight for you whenever you attack. In CATA, there is a sword that put poison AOE on mobs, and a sword that spawn tentacles that attack.
If you look at D3, a non-MMO but nevertheless item ideas can be implemented in MMOs, there are weapons will be proc a pet to fight for you, a ring that will unleash a fireball from time to time, and boots you can wear that put a fire trail on the ground (and it damages mobs).
I'd make MMOs about more than just improving your arsenal.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And lose all the combat-centric, progression centric players?
There are, of course, games that already does that like Tales of the Desert, and SIMS.
The valkyries were also finely tuned to not overshadow other gear choices.
In this sense the op is searching for firewalkers that do significant dps in special cases and can have builds built around (ww, strafe orwhatwasthat), not cosmetic token effects.
Relics of an other age, when 0.42% dps was not enough to make the wheels turn...
Flame on!
Move to horizontal progressions.
Drop levels entirely. You make your character and that's your character - your base gear is your base gear and anything you gain is simply cosmetic. Instead, as you progress through a story, you build up buffs for that specific story, learn the magic of that specific conjunction of stars, create an artifact to slay that specific story's dragon.
This would allow you to have any number of multiple independant campaigns for different playstyles without needing to accelerate people through all the previous levels or render all previous stories moot because you've outleveled them. And it would also solve my personal pet peeve: high level wildlife.I didn't say remove that aspect, just make MMOs about more than just a bunch of genocidal maniacs slaughter everything in their path for the next ding/epic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Already done.
The tentacle sword is BIS back in CATA.
There are many builds in D3 that depends on special gear. For example, zero dog witch doctor build uses gear to reduce CD of summoning zombie dogs to zero, and then use the combo of continuously summoning them, and blow them up (a separate skill) to cost damage and healing. In this build, you reduce CD, and don't gear for DPS.
Another example is the Buriza bow in D3 where you will put one in your follower and you can use the "cold blooded" passive in a Wiz without using a cold skill yourself. That blow will cold snare and occasionally freeze mobs, and "cold blooded" add 20% damage to them. BTW, that bow is not even an end-game bow, so the dps is minimal. This strategy is on top of a build, and not the build itself, but the point is that what the item does, interact with how you build and play.
There are MANY more examples like this. I am aware that D3 is not a MMO, but the build & play style is quite close to the instanced dungeon play of many MMO .. so in this aspect, it serves as a good example.
Why? It is hard to do multiple things well. Look at WOW. It is probably the most successful to cram many playstyle into one game. But even just combat-centric, there is huge problem in pve and pvp balance just because they share the same mechanics.
It is probably much better to make separate games. For example, Minecraft is great if you are a lego builder fan, but i won't play it for action combat.
Modern P2P themeparks are based on everyone having a nearly identical gameplay experience. As such, options are limited, and performance is standardized. The reason they don't allow freedom in custom builds or gear that offers variety is because it is foreign to the intended design.
Start -> get gear and levels -> you win! (just like everyone else)
If it were possible to lose, the crying would be incredible. People would go to another game where they could win.
I see it as a characteristic of mass-appeal gaming.
I would start by making gear a ton more rare to find and aquire instead of being thrown at you like candy during a parade. Then introduce a better variety of gear without the teirs that have been introduced. Let the players debate what will be better. Is that ring with no AC but +20 sta and +10 all resists better than the one with 30 AC and low stats? Depends on what the rest of your armor is looking like where the need will be since not everyone will be able to get top of the line gear all the time like they can now. Maybe your AC is lacking because you've come across a lot of good stat gear while adventuring so you take that one. Maybe your AC is respectable so you could use the extra HP and resists for raids. Maybe (most likely) someone will number crunch it and figure out that having the AC is more efficient than having the extra stamina for HP since you'll be taking less damage each hit that will on average save you more hp than the stamina will give you.
Plus...how realistic is it that every little task you do you're getting all these magical weapons and armor for your mindless tasks that are given out and dropped off of very basic creatures? Wow, you got top teir boots off of that boar, that's awesome! What did he do, swallow a guy who was wearing uber boots while he was passed out drunk? Or did he break into somoene's home while they were sleeping and he was wearing them on his front legs for fashion?
TL;DR: Less quantity of gear, more quality. None of this recycling whole sets of gear every few levels.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
Play EVE for free for 21 days
The QQing will be unimaginable.
Just look at D3. You have random items, and it got successive harder to find upgrades. What happened? People complained that drops are "useless", and they have to up the drop rate of legendaries, and make them, on average, better.
People want candies.
It's really difficult to balance the gear loot thing and the progression thing. I am one of those who enjoys those gear pieces that give you extra abilities but if the game were fun and the loot cosmetic I wouldn't mind that either so long as they had fun activities to do.
I thought GW2 would be like that since most of the stats on that game come from leveling however, it didn't pan out. There's nothing worse then having a gear treadmill (implemented on Nov 15th) and then take away all means of reaching the goal accept 1. Sorry I played a game where there was nothing else to do but dungeons and raids all day for 6 years, not going back to that.
There will be QQing no matter what is released. The pendulum has swung one way too far, it'll come back towards the middle soon enough.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
People shouldn't always get what they want, frequently they don't know what's best for them, even if they think they do.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Serious question. So how do you get immersed in these games even though you know that you are using keyboard, mouse and computer. Take whatever skill you call that, then apply it to any "immersion-breaking" aspect of game play.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
i tried it. Combat is no fun.
Done to he extentent that you can claim that they are there, nothing more.
Lets not forget when all the "good" legendaries were added into D3. (And name 10 if there are that many)
But lets stick to the point, where the real disconnect is that i (and probably the op) would expect the current D3 options be in a mmorpg and D3 itself as an arpg and a game revolving around gear to be completely over the top.
Not just token items.
Flame on!
So let's be clear. In D3, many items (as some of the examples i have given) are not token and have profound impact on gameplay and builds.
And about the point about D3 being ARPG? i would say many MMO have closed enough play style that it does not make a huge difference. Specifically, we are talking about running instanced dungeons. I don't really care if i run a 5-man dungeon in a MMO, or a ARPG, because pretty much it would be the same.
And you miss the point about the tentacle sword in CATA .. that one is BIS .. so pretty much NOT token.
I still dont see 10 mentioned, if you really want to talk about "many".
As for arpg, from the pov of the usual "one system to rule them all" nonsense, i want them to be different, sorry if you disagree.
As for token, i meant it as a token of "fun" itemization, when you create 1000 items and one of them is playstylechanging or whatnot, it is a token, symbolic gesture.
Flame on!
I remember utility weapons in Everquest 1, Low dmg dagger that has a chance to summon food on attack now this may not seem like alot but food/water was vital in Everquest your combat proficency would drop significantly if you were hungry not to meantion you start to loose HP if u were starving so you could acualy starve to death, ( unlike what ur use to now in most games food/drink is just out of combat stat regen and you never need to eat)
This dagger was useful to carry around if you 1. you couldnt carry much food around cause your weight limit didnt allow for excess weight (Monk in EQ has a passive that they fought much better when they were carrying less than 13kg total or something around that so they tried to keep weight of gear and inventory minimal as posible) and 2. there were no merchants nearby that you could purchase food from there was also a weapon that summoned water which was a great help when farming in a desert because you would drink all your drinks fairly quickly since it was a dessert.
There were also weapons with chance on hit effects, dmg, bleeds, stuns on unique weapons. Also there was armor that had active effects. For example the theif had a armband that could summon throwing knifes.
Also equipment was used for a much longer period of time it was normal to be wearing a single piece of equipment for more than 10-20 levels on somecase i was wearing an earing for 27 levels before replacing it It was my trust onyx earing that gave me +2 agi.
Gosh .. do you have to be dense? Can you just go to forums, or do a google search? Here is 10. Don't ask for 20. Go google them yourself if you really want to know more.
1) chanto set for CM wiz
2) Truim source for archon wiz
3) 4-5 pieces for WD zero dog build
4) Frostburn gauntlet for wiz cold build
5) monk sweeping build with 4-piece inna bonus
6) skorn for slow disintegration build (and other disintegration AP reducing items)
7) Thing of teh Deep for pick-up raidius based build
8) buriza bow on rogue follow with cold blooded passive on wiz
9) leoric ring for xp
10) Three hundredth spear for Barb weapon throw build
And as you can see, most are from wiz (4 out of 10), because i am not as familiar with other classes and how their special builds. Furthermore, i haven't even touched on the specific skill boosting affix which will further synerize with MANY builds.
Lastly, there are also non-build synergy, but game mechanics changing items such as a) a trail of fire on ground, b) cast random fireballs, c) give you a random shild, d) summon a pet occasionally ......
So the idea that items are just about specs ... is false, at least in this game.
Now we are not talking about there should be just one system to rule them all ... we are talking about item diversification and whether they are only about stats. That is obviously not true, at least in this example.
You sub gear variety for build variety.
WoW might have piss poor gear variety, as in there is a clear cut BiS for each class and spec.
But if you do the math, there are what, 33 specs?
Or you take a game like Rift there are almost countless soul builds - though the # that are viable is a different and probably much smaller number.
Unique gear is great... but when everyone has unique gear it is no longer unique.
And when only a few have unique gear, everyone else hates it.
Better off spending the dev time creating more playstyle options (classes, specs, builds etc.) than making custom gear for everyone.
More bang for your buck, but more so more enjoyment for your players for your dev TIME, and that leads to more players and more money which leads to more devs and more dev TIME etc etc. etc.