Well, why not just remove death? I mean what's the point? These games already hand you everything else on a silver platter and all but play the game for you.
Just goes to show there will always be a market for ultra-mega casual/easy solo God Mode MMO games.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Well, why not just remove death? I mean what's the point? These games already hand you everything else on a silver platter and all but play the game for you.
Just goes to show there will always be a market for ultra-mega casual/easy solo God Mode MMO games.
Hmm I guess you belive that not having a death penalty somehow means that they don't want challenge either.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
all depends on the game really. it just needs to make sense for the game.
eve online makes sense. your ship gets blown up you have to buy a new one and new equipment, pretty hefty penalty depending on the ship. if your pod gets blown up you lose your toon, unless you had him cloned. which depending onthe last time you cloned you could lose a good bit of exp and trained skills. had a friend that forgot to clone right after training up a rank 5 in carrier, he died and lost months of training time.
asherons call made sense as when you died your body resurrected at a lifestone with some of your lifeforce gone until you earned it back via exp. plus you dropped some items that you were carrying and all your loose coin. the worst part sometimes is you had to run back to where you were hunting/questing at and then you could recover your items but your coins were lost forever. but depending on what you were doing that was not always possible.
wow never really made sense, go back to a spirit binder and have to spirit walk back to your body or rez at the spiritbinder with durability damage. maybe its somewhere in warcraft lore but to me it was just a time and money sink just to say we have a death penalty.
most modern games the death penalty is meaningless so it might as well not even be there. i like the idea if it makes sense to the lore, if not just remove it if the only reason you have one is because every game before had a death penalty.
Originally posted by FallguyArmy ...So again, I ask, what benefits do death penalities have in improving your character in an MMO?
Why on earth should death, failure improve your character?
What's next? Purples for not completing the raid? Levelling from 1st - end game by not playing?
Death should sting. Death should be an inconvenience. You should have a reason to avoid death.
If death improved your character, wha...I...I don't even know what to say...
I take it you haven't heard then, about WOW's new plan to reward PUG DF groups who wipe with increasing 10% buff bonuses up to like 50 or maybe 90% to help them complete the content? True story actually.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, why not just remove death? I mean what's the point? These games already hand you everything else on a silver platter and all but play the game for you.
Just goes to show there will always be a market for ultra-mega casual/easy solo God Mode MMO games.
Hmm I guess you belive that not having a death penalty somehow means that they don't want challenge either.
Exactly.
I mean, really, what's the difference between:
1. Wiping on a challenging boss over and over for 4 hours and paying 100 gold in repair bills (minimum DP)
and
2. Wiping on a challenging boss once and spending 100 gold replacing items and 4 hours re-gaining the XP you need to work off a death penalty (high DP)
You want to know the answer?
#1 you actually have room to learn, improve, and practice/get better.
#1 actually rewards you for playing really skillfully and not wiping for hours
#1 rewards you for trying new strategies and taking chances and trying new things
#1 gives more variation in acceptable tactics, character builds, group compesition
it's not for nothing that modern MMO punish you with few coins, but some oldish MMO gave you large XP or time penalties, or, even worse, loss of your items / money.
I think small penalty can't bother my game playing but large one can be annyoing and drive to to the door.
about question if we should remove it completely, I would tell, why not, all depends on general game content and play style.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises. Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
Brilliant!! please, allow me to go further and sugest to remove death!! death in a mmorpg is lame and a inconvenience and should be removed asap. everybody win !!
Originally posted by FallguyArmy I think a better question to ask is, "What benefits do death penalties have in the progression of character leveling in MMOs?"
it's simple.
let's say a questgiver asks you to kill he scary wolf that's terrorizing the village.
the developers can easily make a wolf. It's not very easy to make the wolf scary though.
but if the wolf can kill you can dying sucks...suddenly the wolf just got scary a little, didn't it ?
Not remotely. If the wolf gets to be more dangerous than it's worth, that the benefit of killing it don't significantly outweigh the potential costs of killing it, then I'll tell the questgiver where to shove his quest. If the whole game is like that, I'll go find something else to play.
I don't give a damn about scary wolves, I want a game that's fun to play.
Interesting. Of course the biggest different is an MMO doesnt' end, the board game does, so IMO a board game is more akin to an individual encounter in an MMO, or since you can die in Arkham and the game doesn't end, possibly a single play session in an MMO, unless of course the board game doesn't end.
Just out of curiousity what is the penalty?
It depends.
If your investigator is reduced to 0 sanity or 0 stamina while in Arkham he loses half his ability cards, spell cards, money and any retainers he possess. You start your next turn normally but with 1 sanity or stamina.
If your investigator is reduced to 0 sanity or 0 stamina while in the Other World, it's the same as above plus you lose a turn.
There are other rules for if you're fighting the ancient one (the boss) but I don't remember them off hand. They get pretty nasty though.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I think everyone is in agreement that the death penalty in games is generally pretty adequate.
I'm of the opinion that there should be an increasing penalty for repeat offenders. Games with low death penalties like WoW should have a building debuff that increases by a stack each time you die within 24 hours. It would be like a 2% overall stat decrease for 30 minutes, but still keep track of how many times you die, the debuff would just be a short punishment while the stacking would punish players for being careless.
Another cool concept would be to allow players to rez up a certain number of times each day. Like lives in a single player game except you can pay for more lives or wait 24 hours. If you run out of lives, game over until tomorrow or you can pay for more.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift. I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough. I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Originally posted by apocoluster Depends on the game.
Likely yes.
Other than video games can you think of a game with a penalty other than not advancing when you lose?
Fraternity Drinking games? All I could come up with, of the top of my head, outside the realm of video games.
Haha. You win.
How about... chess? Think about it, lose a piece, (without a corresponding trade) and you are now penalized for the rest of the game in playing in a handicapped position, unless you can somehow turn the tide you'll likely lose the game.
Or perhaps if you've ever played make it, take it basketball, the side who scores gets the ball back again until the other side can take it from them.
Speaking of basketball, foul too many times and you are taken out of the game, and your teammates suffer.
I could go on, but there's all sorts of examples in gaming and sports where there is a long term penalty for "failing" in some fashion so MMO's aren't the only things to include this.
And let's not forget about real life, plenty of examples of long term penalties for failure, including true permadeath.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.
Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot. After all, winning should be it's own reward too. You risk nothing you gain nothing.
Move the slider up the rewards become better and better. You're risking more and receiving more.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by apocoluster Depends on the game.
Likely yes.
Other than video games can you think of a game with a penalty other than not advancing when you lose?
Fraternity Drinking games? All I could come up with, of the top of my head, outside the realm of video games.
Haha. You win.
How about... chess? Think about it, lose a piece, (without a corresponding trade) and you are now penalized for the rest of the game in playing in a handicapped position, unless you can somehow turn the tide you'll likely lose the game.
Or perhaps if you've ever played make it, take it basketball, the side who scores gets the ball back again until the other side can take it from them.
Speaking of basketball, foul too many times and you are taken out of the game, and your teammates suffer.
I could go on, but there's all sorts of examples in gaming and sports where there is a long term penalty for "failing" in some fashion so MMO's aren't the only things to include this.
And let's not forget about real life, plenty of examples of long term penalties for failure, including true permadeath.
IMO chess is a single encounter, losing a peice is like losing hitpoints while you in a pve/pvp match. When the chess match is done thats it, nothing further. When you die in an MMO with a penalty, something happens that makes the next round harder. In chess this would be akin to starting the game with less pecies.
A foul in basketball is for breaking the rules, not for losing the game. When the other team loses the basketball game, nothing happens to them to make it harder to play again, they just don't advance to the next round. Starting the game with less palyers, or a handicap to make it harder to play would be a penalty akin to MMO Penalty
In RL there are many thing that are penalties, those aren't games though.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by FallguyArmy ...So again, I ask, what benefits do death penalities have in improving your character in an MMO?
Why on earth should death, failure improve your character?
What's next? Purples for not completing the raid? Levelling from 1st - end game by not playing?
Death should sting. Death should be an inconvenience. You should have a reason to avoid death.
If death improved your character, wha...I...I don't even know what to say...
I take it you haven't heard then, about WOW's new plan to reward PUG DF groups who wipe with increasing 10% buff bonuses up to like 50 or maybe 90% to help them complete the content? True story actually.
Really? Is it an option or are they giving the buff to everyone whether you want it or not?
How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.
Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot. After all, winning should be it's own reward too. You risk nothing you gain nothing.
Move the slider up the rewards become better and better. You're risking more and receiving more.
Possibly. What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.
Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot. After all, winning should be it's own reward too. You risk nothing you gain nothing.
Move the slider up the rewards become better and better. You're risking more and receiving more.
Possibly. What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).
You get XP. Shouldn't winning be it own reward though? I keep hearing that death alone is it's own penalty.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by FallguyArmy ...So again, I ask, what benefits do death penalities have in improving your character in an MMO?
Why on earth should death, failure improve your character?
What's next? Purples for not completing the raid? Levelling from 1st - end game by not playing?
Death should sting. Death should be an inconvenience. You should have a reason to avoid death.
If death improved your character, wha...I...I don't even know what to say...
I take it you haven't heard then, about WOW's new plan to reward PUG DF groups who wipe with increasing 10% buff bonuses up to like 50 or maybe 90% to help them complete the content? True story actually.
Really? Is it an option or are they giving the buff to everyone whether you want it or not?
With WoW I'm guessing they want everyone to get to end game quickly to participate in the end game activites. From that end the buff makes sense.
Stupid IMO, death shouldn't be penalized but definatley not rewarded. Of course I don't do end game activities either so the whole thing is wacky to me.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Well, why not just remove death? I mean what's the point? These games already hand you everything else on a silver platter and all but play the game for you.
Just goes to show there will always be a market for ultra-mega casual/easy solo God Mode MMO games.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Hmm I guess you belive that not having a death penalty somehow means that they don't want challenge either.
all depends on the game really. it just needs to make sense for the game.
eve online makes sense. your ship gets blown up you have to buy a new one and new equipment, pretty hefty penalty depending on the ship. if your pod gets blown up you lose your toon, unless you had him cloned. which depending onthe last time you cloned you could lose a good bit of exp and trained skills. had a friend that forgot to clone right after training up a rank 5 in carrier, he died and lost months of training time.
asherons call made sense as when you died your body resurrected at a lifestone with some of your lifeforce gone until you earned it back via exp. plus you dropped some items that you were carrying and all your loose coin. the worst part sometimes is you had to run back to where you were hunting/questing at and then you could recover your items but your coins were lost forever. but depending on what you were doing that was not always possible.
wow never really made sense, go back to a spirit binder and have to spirit walk back to your body or rez at the spiritbinder with durability damage. maybe its somewhere in warcraft lore but to me it was just a time and money sink just to say we have a death penalty.
most modern games the death penalty is meaningless so it might as well not even be there. i like the idea if it makes sense to the lore, if not just remove it if the only reason you have one is because every game before had a death penalty.
Why on earth should death, failure improve your character?
What's next? Purples for not completing the raid? Levelling from 1st - end game by not playing?
Death should sting. Death should be an inconvenience. You should have a reason to avoid death.
If death improved your character, wha...I...I don't even know what to say...
I take it you haven't heard then, about WOW's new plan to reward PUG DF groups who wipe with increasing 10% buff bonuses up to like 50 or maybe 90% to help them complete the content? True story actually.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Exactly.
I mean, really, what's the difference between:
1. Wiping on a challenging boss over and over for 4 hours and paying 100 gold in repair bills (minimum DP)
and
2. Wiping on a challenging boss once and spending 100 gold replacing items and 4 hours re-gaining the XP you need to work off a death penalty (high DP)
You want to know the answer?
#1 you actually have room to learn, improve, and practice/get better.
#1 actually rewards you for playing really skillfully and not wiping for hours
#1 rewards you for trying new strategies and taking chances and trying new things
#1 gives more variation in acceptable tactics, character builds, group compesition
I could go on and on and on.
I think we should keep and continue building into games a Time death penalty.
You dont lose stats/power/items/wealth, you lose time.
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
Time is a predator that stalks us all our lives...
Odd. I've always viewed challenge as what I need to do to win a fight, penalty is what happens after I lose.
They are different.
Strip poker? Losing is winning. Affects after the game may be permanet.
IMO, depends of penalty.
it's not for nothing that modern MMO punish you with few coins, but some oldish MMO gave you large XP or time penalties, or, even worse, loss of your items / money.
I think small penalty can't bother my game playing but large one can be annyoing and drive to to the door.
about question if we should remove it completely, I would tell, why not, all depends on general game content and play style.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
Not remotely. If the wolf gets to be more dangerous than it's worth, that the benefit of killing it don't significantly outweigh the potential costs of killing it, then I'll tell the questgiver where to shove his quest. If the whole game is like that, I'll go find something else to play.
I don't give a damn about scary wolves, I want a game that's fun to play.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
If you're trying to kill the game, sure.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
It depends.
If your investigator is reduced to 0 sanity or 0 stamina while in Arkham he loses half his ability cards, spell cards, money and any retainers he possess. You start your next turn normally but with 1 sanity or stamina.
If your investigator is reduced to 0 sanity or 0 stamina while in the Other World, it's the same as above plus you lose a turn.
There are other rules for if you're fighting the ancient one (the boss) but I don't remember them off hand. They get pretty nasty though.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I think everyone is in agreement that the death penalty in games is generally pretty adequate.
I'm of the opinion that there should be an increasing penalty for repeat offenders. Games with low death penalties like WoW should have a building debuff that increases by a stack each time you die within 24 hours. It would be like a 2% overall stat decrease for 30 minutes, but still keep track of how many times you die, the debuff would just be a short punishment while the stacking would punish players for being careless.
Another cool concept would be to allow players to rez up a certain number of times each day. Like lives in a single player game except you can pay for more lives or wait 24 hours. If you run out of lives, game over until tomorrow or you can pay for more.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
How about... chess? Think about it, lose a piece, (without a corresponding trade) and you are now penalized for the rest of the game in playing in a handicapped position, unless you can somehow turn the tide you'll likely lose the game.
Or perhaps if you've ever played make it, take it basketball, the side who scores gets the ball back again until the other side can take it from them.
Speaking of basketball, foul too many times and you are taken out of the game, and your teammates suffer.
I could go on, but there's all sorts of examples in gaming and sports where there is a long term penalty for "failing" in some fashion so MMO's aren't the only things to include this.
And let's not forget about real life, plenty of examples of long term penalties for failure, including true permadeath.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How about a slider where you can the set serverity of the death penalty yourself.
Players who want no penalty and think death is it's own penalty receive no loot. After all, winning should be it's own reward too. You risk nothing you gain nothing.
Move the slider up the rewards become better and better. You're risking more and receiving more.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
IMO chess is a single encounter, losing a peice is like losing hitpoints while you in a pve/pvp match. When the chess match is done thats it, nothing further. When you die in an MMO with a penalty, something happens that makes the next round harder. In chess this would be akin to starting the game with less pecies.
A foul in basketball is for breaking the rules, not for losing the game. When the other team loses the basketball game, nothing happens to them to make it harder to play again, they just don't advance to the next round. Starting the game with less palyers, or a handicap to make it harder to play would be a penalty akin to MMO Penalty
In RL there are many thing that are penalties, those aren't games though.
Really? Is it an option or are they giving the buff to everyone whether you want it or not?
good lord.
isnt fast travel fast enough as it is?
Possibly. What reason do I have to even try to beat the guy unless I get something for it (unless the gameplay is really fantastic then I wouldn't care about the loot).
You get XP. Shouldn't winning be it own reward though? I keep hearing that death alone is it's own penalty.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
With WoW I'm guessing they want everyone to get to end game quickly to participate in the end game activites. From that end the buff makes sense.
Stupid IMO, death shouldn't be penalized but definatley not rewarded. Of course I don't do end game activities either so the whole thing is wacky to me.