f2p = how to nickel and dime your playerbase in order to gain profit without impacting gameplay and supplying content updates on a far more regular basis than P2P .
p2p = how to create a grindy game and keep content going on in order to keep subs going through achievements/reinforced scarcity in late game items (to gain profit)
Fixed it for you dear sir as I doubt you were not drunk when you posted.
I see them as quite different from a developer perspective. Compare "Play my game free but only the parts I want to let you into" versus "Play my whole game free and if you want or need stuff, use the item shop". Freemium as I've seen it is more like a content limited trial.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Play Vindictus if you want to know what's wrong with F2P.
You don't have 15k ATK?
-> You don't get to join groups until you do.
Play WoW if you want to know what's wrong with subs.
You dont have ____ gear score?
-> you dont get to join raids until you do.
Sorry, your point can be applied to P2P games as well thus proving once again, the arguments against F2P games are made by people with double standards or just plain dont know the market at all.
Gear score was the first thing that came to mind when I saw that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
One thing I will say about Cash Shops though: As long as their convenience orientated I am perfectly ok with them, once they start selling items which you cannot get otherwise and are better than anything in-game (potions count here only if they alter stats, healing/mana potions of a superior grade than those normally found in-game are still ok though) then you have a pay 2 win system.
Someone mentioned Vindictus earlier as what's wrong with F2Ps.... uhmm that's a asian MMO applying an asian system of F2P which believe it or not is fair, you can pay to get ahead faster or you can slog it out to get the stuff you need for free, those are choices but you end up at the same level of power regardless of how quickly you got there. For the same reason Warframe is also a true F2P game, if you are not forced by the mechanics to buy things from the cash shop then you are ok, sure the drop rates might be abysmal but... how should I put this... in World of Tanks the best tanks I have are tier 7, in 3 years of gametime I've not had one tier 8 post beta, why? because I play casually and for free and quite frankely only recently have I decided to slog it out to tier 8 maybe 9 on the chinese medium line because I like the feel and look of the tanks.
When looking at a business model, just be careful to think carefully about what it is you are actually paying the developers to develop. Are you buying a game or is the game just the bait?
Interesting argument. Bait for what though?
The entire concept of a cash shop is that you're paying real money to scratch an itch that you didn't even have until you started to play the game.
Originally posted by aleos it really means Free 2 Pay?
depends on player. the devs have no power here.
actually the devs carry all the power when they're holding it above your head for 2.95
The fact that i dont have to buy it doesnt mean shit.
its there.
So we're all idiots who pay regardless? The devs have no power over our spending habits, the sooner people realize this and start really voting with their wallets the sooner we'll start getting quality games (B2P,F2P and even P2P).
I was there and the players voted with their wallets (a dip of around 10.000 subbers canceling their subs) and got the developer to see reason (btw the Jita 4-4 monument was blown up by the devs and a wreck left there in honour of that protest) as the direction they were heading in with the game was impacting negatively the gameplay and they were becoming increasingly arrogant and aloof towards the community... fast forward 3 months and we even got a apology letter from CCP's CEO for words he spoke during the protests ^^. Money is power and your wallet matters for any MMO you play.
Originally posted by aleos it really means Free 2 Pay?
depends on player. the devs have no power here.
actually the devs carry all the power when they're holding it above your head for 2.95
The fact that i dont have to buy it doesnt mean shit.
its there.
So we're all idiots who pay regardless? The devs have no power over our spending habits, the sooner people realize this and start really voting with their wallets the sooner we'll start getting quality games (B2P,F2P and even P2P).
I was there and the players voted with their wallets (a dip of around 10.000 subbers canceling their subs) and got the developer to see reason (btw the Jita 4-4 monument was blown up by the devs and a wreck left there in honour of that protest) as the direction they were heading in with the game was impacting negatively the gameplay and they were becoming increasingly arrogant and aloof towards the community... fast forward 3 months and we even got a apology letter from CCP's CEO for words he spoke during the protests ^^. Money is power and your wallet matters for any MMO you play.
Hey i agree. more players should be voting with their wallets. The work around for players voting with their wallets has now turned into a box sale and a hope for an extra month or two. so thats what 60 bucks and the potential for an extra 14.95 after that? Why create anything other than a bare bones system when you're running a hype train through the crowed of consumers. Thing is a lot of us really arent the target audience anymore. So no we arent all idiots. But yea a large proportion of the playerbase is. This is the want it now generation. I am just not apart of it.
How'd you feel when you saw SOE's new "Free to play Your Way" slogan. As if you didn't already know it was your own choice to spend any money. I thought it was pretty condescending personally. But hey, thats just me.
Awesome video by the way.
Shame more games wont allow you to protest in such a fassion. Thats due to limited player choice.
limited to a small fee of 2.95
its all the choice you got now.
EDIT: Also i can guarantee 100% that we will see more MMORPG's Made as P2P games just specifically to go F2P. Grab the cash as soon as possible just so they can and roll over on the game. Throw the cash shop in there and come back every now and then with some more BS people keep calling content. These games know they suck. and with a contention plan like Free 2 Pay whos really even trying anymore. If these games even offered half the stuff they did before mainstream took over. we wouldn't be having this conversation.
It's like having DLC made before a game is released. They're ready for it. Things that actually used to be free no longer are. Pieces of the game left out just to outright charge you for it. Forget that. I wont be apart of it.
Originally posted by aleos it really means Free 2 Pay?
depends on player. the devs have no power here.
actually the devs carry all the power when they're holding it above your head for 2.95
The fact that i dont have to buy it doesnt mean shit.
its there.
So we're all idiots who pay regardless? The devs have no power over our spending habits, the sooner people realize this and start really voting with their wallets the sooner we'll start getting quality games (B2P,F2P and even P2P).
I was there and the players voted with their wallets (a dip of around 10.000 subbers canceling their subs) and got the developer to see reason (btw the Jita 4-4 monument was blown up by the devs and a wreck left there in honour of that protest) as the direction they were heading in with the game was impacting negatively the gameplay and they were becoming increasingly arrogant and aloof towards the community... fast forward 3 months and we even got a apology letter from CCP's CEO for words he spoke during the protests ^^. Money is power and your wallet matters for any MMO you play.
Hey i agree. more players should be voting with their wallets. The work around for players voting with their wallets has now turned into a box sale and a hope for an extra month or two. so thats what 60 bucks and the potential for an extra 14.95 after that? Why create anything other than a bare bones system when you're running a hype train through the crowed of consumers. Thing is a lot of us really arent the target audience anymore. So no we arent all idiots. But yea a large proportion of the playerbase is. This is the want it now generation. I am just not apart of it.
How'd you feel when you saw SOE's new "Free to play Your Way" slogan. As if you didn't already know it was your own choice to spend any money. I thought it was pretty condescending personally. But hey, thats just me.
Awesome video by the way.
Shame more games wont allow you to protest in such a fassion. Thats due to limited player choice.
limited to a small fee of 2.95
its all the choice you got now.
Uhmm... and why do you think I so fervently support free to play? Because the devs don't get to hype their game up and not deliver, because if they don't then they will be quite literally drawn and quartered by their own investors because of abysmal returns on investments.
Also what is with the 2.95 fee? You can protest however much you like in a F2P MMO because you can, even if outright banned on one account, register multiple accounts and let people know on their forums and spread the news around on other websites about what the devs are doing, take a cue from Darkfall: UO, that game's atrocious and we all know it, it'll likely sink if it isn't fixed prior to release, another example is SWTOR which even after going F2P is struggling for dear life but I doubt it will live past the IP contract renewal in a few years.
Free to play allows you the choice to try the game and decide if it is worth investing, if it is not you move on, you vote with your wallet, P2P and even B2P do not give you the choice, once you invest you've paid the devs and effectively given your vote away especially if it's, as you put it, a hyped up piece of garbage.
On a personal/tangential note: I've had beta access to SWTOR prior to its release and saw it was basically WoW-lite with Star Wars theme, I warned everyone I knew around me about that fact ( and the ones who were looking for SWG 2.0 or something not like WoW actually listened and either waited for reviews or outright cancelled their preorders waiting for reviews before purchasing) and submitted a beta report to Bioware stating that their game while decent and relatively polished was lacking any incentive to actually play it.... I never got another beta invite.
...because I'm not seeing it. Open to all arguments but please try to stay logical and back them up.
Looking to see if this is more a personal choice (opinion) or actually a bonafide benefit (or constraint) to the player.
Whats your view?
Go!
Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" (whether the cash-shop is in the game client which is bad, or out of the game client doesn't matter) you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.
What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword.
But after the gamification and simplification and pussification of gaming since .... 8 years ago. A new generation of players would never understand such argument but in the end I go back to this simple philosophy. Some people want this game and others wants a DIFFERENT game... there's nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But the problem is I don't get to play the game I want, it's always the OTHER game. Hence, why we come here to complain.
...because I'm not seeing it. Open to all arguments but please try to stay logical and back them up.
Looking to see if this is more a personal choice (opinion) or actually a bonafide benefit (or constraint) to the player.
Whats your view?
Go!
Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" (whether the cash-shop is in the game client which is bad, or out of the game client doesn't matter) you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.
What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword.
But after the gamification and simplification and pussification of gaming since .... 8 years ago. A new generation of players would never understand such argument but in the end I go back to this simple philosophy. Some people want this game and others wants a DIFFERENT game... there's nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But the problem is I don't get to play the game I want, it's always the OTHER game. Hence, why we come here to complain.
Opinion and damn pitifully argumented one. I agree with the move towards mass-market appeal since WoW (which FYI was 10 years ago almost) games have gotten a bit more easy but if you're having fun in a game it does not really matter if it's null sec EVE-Online or Hello Kitty Online, you are having fun and that's what a game is, a mode to have fun, so complain all you want you're not gonna see that many games cater your specific tastes because it is an MMO, you aren't important, a group of people isn't important, a healthy stable community is and if it is a community of only casual players... well your damn fault for being there.
As for the "immersion" breaking cash shop... unless it is pushed into your face like certain bad F2P games do it doesn't really matter, it's just another button on your "immersion" breaking UI. If the sword itself is widely available in-game or is a cheap to repair average high level sword in a game where items attrition at high rates it is not offering any gameplay altering advantages because there are better swords around which you only get by playing the game as for the Roleplay side of things... you have Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 roleplay servers and certain MMOs which also offer roleplay capabilities, do not enforce your own tastes onto others when your tastes are being catered to in certain areas, pick more wisely and learn to not bitch so much.
...because I'm not seeing it. Open to all arguments but please try to stay logical and back them up.
Looking to see if this is more a personal choice (opinion) or actually a bonafide benefit (or constraint) to the player.
Whats your view?
Go!
Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" (whether the cash-shop is in the game client which is bad, or out of the game client doesn't matter) you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.
What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword.
Your primary argument against F2P is about a scenario that does not exist save for maybe 2 or 3 of the 300+ F2P MMOs. Are you aware of that?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Free 2 Play blurs the distinction between achievers and purchasers.
I have a cool mount in Runes of Magic.
Did I do some long quest chain? No.
Did my character slay some mega-boss? No.
Did I grind reputation for hours? No.
How did I get it? Credit card.
See the blur? Am I an achiever for having my mount?
That line is not blurry it's crystal clear. Cha-Ching. The most annoying thing to me is claiming cosmetic items have no value when you put a price tag next to them. Now almost everything has a subscription and a cash shop and they call that Free to Play and life runs on rainbows and puppy dogs.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I do not have a problem with free to play per say, but rather, some common elements in free to play games. Here is a list of a few common problems I have with free to play models.
1) Gambling. Many free to play games force you to gamble if you want your item. Especially the ever so popular key to box of mysteries. I really feel terrible knowing that the only way to obtain something is to spend money and possibly get nothing or next to nothing in return.
2) Exponential advantage. Many free to play games say they are not pay to win because of the fact that you can get everything in game. What they don't tell you is that to get the BEST of anything your options are to farm said items for more hours than any working person (and in some cases simply impossible even for those who play 16 hours a day) can possibly ever acheive OR spend usually up to hundreds of dollars to just buy the items off the item store. This is especially common with crafting success items or items that prevent enhanced items from breaking. This problem is compouded by items that can be enhanced to effectiveness levels impossible to acheive ingame (due to time constraints) for users with bottomless wallets that can just keep buying crafting success / anti break items.
3) The ability to trade / sell auction house items. This basicly means that you can have everything you want in game immediatly if you have the money to spend. Want 1 000 000 gold on a game where the average player has 100g? Just buy thousands of dollars worth of cash shop items and put them on the auction house (even in a game that has only vanity items). This inflates the economy to the point were even players willing to spend a little money can't buy anything for a decent price because of the few very rich (real world money) players.
All in all, there is one basic rule I like to follow in free to play games; if I can get the max non-vanity advantage in a game for under 15$ per month, I am fine with the cash shop. If the deeper my wallet, the more gold/gear/exp or any other advantage I can get, then the game is pay to win in my eyes. Sadly, games that DO NOT give exponential advantage for real money are very rare!
Play Vindictus if you want to know what's wrong with F2P.
You don't have 15k ATK?
-> You don't get to join groups until you do.
Want 15k ATK?
-> You have two options, you grind this scroll that drops in 1 out of 10,000 runs and has a 99% of failing, it will take you 6 months. OR you just buy scrolls and runes from the marketplace and you'll have your weapon in 2 miutes.
I don't play the game anymore, I never played it serious since I have my guild in another game, but this is what's wrong with F2P.
Thats not a problem with F2P. Its a problem with the implementation that the developer of Vindictus chose to use.
You represent an example of my point. If F2P is implemented poorly it will drive more players away then attract. But an interesting question is if Vindictus had a sub would you pay it? Or was the draw to vindictus the fact that it was F2P?
And how do you know it was a "poor" implementation of F2P? Do you have the numbers for how much they've earned?
Free 2 Play blurs the distinction between achievers and purchasers.
I have a cool mount in Runes of Magic.
Did I do some long quest chain? No.
Did my character slay some mega-boss? No.
Did I grind reputation for hours? No.
How did I get it? Credit card.
See the blur? Am I an achiever for having my mount?
If you're going to try to point out a flaw of F2P, it's best to use any example other than mounts.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
For me personally it depends on the value someone gets. If I play Rift (for example), I spend a fixed amount per month, and I don't have to worry about anything. I'm not saying I have access to all of the content, but at least the sub feels worth the money if the game offers enough content/fun. I say this, because in F2P games, the value of items seems to be out of proportion. For 10 to 15 euros/dollars, you can get, lets say, a questpack or 2, or maybe a mount. If you're lucky a cosmetic item set. I understand you get the game for free, so publishers want to make money back. However, quite some publishers price their cash shop items very high.
I do play a lot of F2P games, and I like both models, only if the pricing is fair. I don't mind paying money at all to a company if I like their product, but a lot of (the F2P) companies tend to forget it's about making a quality and fun product.
There is nothing wrong with F2P. It has the advantage of everyone being able to try out the game and once youve tried it you can decide whether you want to drop money it. Unfortunately, the amount of money you're able to drop on it is so insane that it can quickly turn incredibly expensive.
It could be great, but once they get enough people playing they'll start squeezing the player base for as much money as they think they can get away with. Paying those bills, it's got to be done at some point in time.
One money grab after another, paying and paying for the illusion of getting ahead, that is often the reality of F2P games. And when they can't squeeze enough money out of the players anymore, then they'll just shut it down.
Know what you're getting yourself into with F2P game and quit before you get the feeling that you can't possibly quit now for this or that reason.
well free to play generally has a horrible community especially free to play pvp games. pve games might be different but f2p pvp games are horrible community. also most free to play games just suck and are a cash grab from the get go or are so grindy that you want to spend money just to get out of the grind, just go check out most korean games.
that said my preferred type of game is a sub fee game, unfortunately sub fee games are being made as free to play games now and charging a sub fee. companies are putting out a game with less than 30 days of content knowing they cant release any more for months and asking you to pay a box plus 15 bucks a month for what is essentially a single player game. you get more content out of some single player games than you get out of a mmo now a days. the mmo instead gives you two or three endgame dungeons and 4 different levels of gear that you have to grind alot to get, and each level gives you what, plus 5 to stats. this is how they intend to keep a customer paying each month until they can release 5 new missions or quests and another dungeon. we have taken that crap for so long some people think its normal to eat crap and continue to do it, not me.
for that reason and that reason alone i play free to play games, but i try to play free to play games that arent as obvious cash grabs. im not even playing a new mmo anymore, i play asherons call and ddo, soon to be neverwinter. we are just now seeing companies trying to make good free to play games over here in the states, so maybe they can make a good game that isnt about a cash grab and isnt a grindfest. to me if they make a good game the money will come whether it is sub or free to play, but they dont make good games anymore. it really makes me wonder if game devs even play games anymore.
I do not have a problem with free to play per say, but rather, some common elements in free to play games. Here is a list of a few common problems I have with free to play models.
1) Gambling. Many free to play games force you to gamble if you want your item. Especially the ever so popular key to box of mysteries. I really feel terrible knowing that the only way to obtain something is to spend money and possibly get nothing or next to nothing in return.
"if you want your item". There is nothing being forced here. Many free players chose NOT to want the item. If you have weak will power, then it may be a problem. But it is never a problem for me.
2) Exponential advantage. Many free to play games say they are not pay to win because of the fact that you can get everything in game. What they don't tell you is that to get the BEST of anything your options are to farm said items for more hours than any working person (and in some cases simply impossible even for those who play 16 hours a day) can possibly ever acheive OR spend usually up to hundreds of dollars to just buy the items off the item store. This is especially common with crafting success items or items that prevent enhanced items from breaking. This problem is compouded by items that can be enhanced to effectiveness levels impossible to acheive ingame (due to time constraints) for users with bottomless wallets that can just keep buying crafting success / anti break items.
This is no difference than any non-F2P MMO. If you want the best items, you need to grind/raid 100x more than the casual. It is either time or money. And as many would say, time *is* money.
3) The ability to trade / sell auction house items. This basicly means that you can have everything you want in game immediatly if you have the money to spend. Want 1 000 000 gold on a game where the average player has 100g? Just buy thousands of dollars worth of cash shop items and put them on the auction house (even in a game that has only vanity items). This inflates the economy to the point were even players willing to spend a little money can't buy anything for a decent price because of the few very rich (real world money) players.
Why is this a problem? Supply & demand. Of course the rare good items are expensive. I don't think you want a game that if you drop $5 or 100g, you get all the best items. And it is a fair world. If someone pays $1000 for a game, he has to make it in the first place. If you are unwilling to do so, or can't make the money, then obviously he should have the item.
Originally posted by snapfusion ... So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible...
This
Originally posted by Robokapp ...personally I have a very difficult time with the simple concept of ME giving things to MY CHARACTER. Shouldn't we be one and the same from a RP standpoint ? It's not my main issue, it's a very minor one in fact but ... can you relate to your character when at its core the game presents "it" as different than 'you' ?
/Signed
Originally posted by Gruug ...What is totally illogical is to buy into the concept of "f2p" in the first place. SOMEONE has to pay in order to let one person to even attempt to play one of those "f2p" games for free. The fact that anyone is paying means that the game IS NOT free. The whole use of the term "free" in f2p is invalid.
QFT
Originally posted by Skuall IMO:f2p = how to nickel and dime your playerbase in order to gain profit .p2p = how to create a fun game and keep content going on in order to keep subs (to gain profit)
Yes
Originally posted by LauraFrost Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" ... you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword. But after the gamification and simplification and pussification of gaming since .... 8 years ago. A new generation of players would never understand such argument but in the end I go back to this simple philosophy. Some people want this game and others wants a DIFFERENT game... there's nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But the problem is I don't get to play the game I want, it's always the OTHER game. Hence, why we come here to complain.
Well said
Deciding where to spend my $ on a game is not fun for me. I'd like a set fee per month. Let the game be the part that needs figuring out, not the cash shop.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
...because I'm not seeing it. Open to all arguments but please try to stay logical and back them up.
Looking to see if this is more a personal choice (opinion) or actually a bonafide benefit (or constraint) to the player.
Whats your view?
Go!
While it is not inherently a bad pracitce, it is often implemented poorly, especially in MMOS. I see free to play in a negative light for several reasons.
1. The transition from a subscription or otherwise front-side price model to free-to-play indicates the developer didn't understand the market, their product, or what their customers wanted. Take for instance, SWTOR. It's a game that should never, ever had been an MMO. It suffers from an identity crisis - trying to inherit the beautiful gameplay of its predecessors while attempting to grab the WoW clients. These are two starkly different game types, which require two very different price models. Next, consider Lord of the Rings Online. It was previously a subscription game that was profitable and enjoyable. New content came out fairly regularly and it boasted one the most mature and welcoming communties in the MMO world. Because of the success of DDO's transition, it was transitioned as well. However, it didn't have the episodic content that DDO had. Where I'm particularly bitter is having to buy old content after the transition. I bought the game (the content) and paid a subscription fee (for access). Of course, this subject is very contentious but that doesn't change the fact that I was once a paying customer. I, among many others, felt burned by this and other changes. Particularly, having seen the turbine points advertised everywhere completely ruined the feel of the game for me.
2. Free to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit LoTRO. When raid buffs and stat tomes came out, it created a rift between the players. If you wanted to take on the harder and more rewarding dungeons or raids, you needed buffs. It's acceptable to have buffs that increase leveling of something, cosmetics, or seasonal items. It is completely unacceptable to sell anything that puts other players ahead or renders players unable to play paid content. Furthermore, no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require money unlock. Once again, LoTRO requires free players to pay for horse travel. SWTOR charged for skill bars.
There are some games that have handled F2P well, like League of Legends. However, I think most F2P MMOs are not worth playing.
2. Free to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit LoTRO. When raid buffs and stat tomes came out, it created a rift between the players. If you wanted to take on the harder and more rewarding dungeons or raids, you needed buffs. It's acceptable to have buffs that increase leveling of something, cosmetics, or seasonal items. It is completely unacceptable to sell anything that puts other players ahead or renders players unable to play paid content. Furthermore, no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require money unlock. Once again, LoTRO requires free players to pay for horse travel. SWTOR charged for skill bars.
Why is that an issue? All online games have haves & have-nots. You don't belong to the ultra hard core raid guild, you don't get the best gear. You don't play 24/7, you have less gold than the guy who does.
It just ruins the immersion for me, that is all. I'm constantly being told to buy something from the real money store from level 1, I'm sorry how the heck am I supposed to know whether to invest or not at level one. I'd rather pay a subscription fee, and I don't have to think about real money. That is why I'm in this world to begin with, to forget real life for a limited amount of time.
Comments
Fixed it for you dear sir as I doubt you were not drunk when you posted.
I see them as quite different from a developer perspective. Compare "Play my game free but only the parts I want to let you into" versus "Play my whole game free and if you want or need stuff, use the item shop". Freemium as I've seen it is more like a content limited trial.
Gear score was the first thing that came to mind when I saw that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
One thing I will say about Cash Shops though: As long as their convenience orientated I am perfectly ok with them, once they start selling items which you cannot get otherwise and are better than anything in-game (potions count here only if they alter stats, healing/mana potions of a superior grade than those normally found in-game are still ok though) then you have a pay 2 win system.
Someone mentioned Vindictus earlier as what's wrong with F2Ps.... uhmm that's a asian MMO applying an asian system of F2P which believe it or not is fair, you can pay to get ahead faster or you can slog it out to get the stuff you need for free, those are choices but you end up at the same level of power regardless of how quickly you got there. For the same reason Warframe is also a true F2P game, if you are not forced by the mechanics to buy things from the cash shop then you are ok, sure the drop rates might be abysmal but... how should I put this... in World of Tanks the best tanks I have are tier 7, in 3 years of gametime I've not had one tier 8 post beta, why? because I play casually and for free and quite frankely only recently have I decided to slog it out to tier 8 maybe 9 on the chinese medium line because I like the feel and look of the tanks.
actually the devs carry all the power when they're holding it above your head for 2.95
The fact that i dont have to buy it doesnt mean shit.
its there.
The entire concept of a cash shop is that you're paying real money to scratch an itch that you didn't even have until you started to play the game.
So we're all idiots who pay regardless? The devs have no power over our spending habits, the sooner people realize this and start really voting with their wallets the sooner we'll start getting quality games (B2P,F2P and even P2P).
How can I say this? Well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfjQ_Lq9FWg
I was there and the players voted with their wallets (a dip of around 10.000 subbers canceling their subs) and got the developer to see reason (btw the Jita 4-4 monument was blown up by the devs and a wreck left there in honour of that protest) as the direction they were heading in with the game was impacting negatively the gameplay and they were becoming increasingly arrogant and aloof towards the community... fast forward 3 months and we even got a apology letter from CCP's CEO for words he spoke during the protests ^^. Money is power and your wallet matters for any MMO you play.
Hey i agree. more players should be voting with their wallets. The work around for players voting with their wallets has now turned into a box sale and a hope for an extra month or two. so thats what 60 bucks and the potential for an extra 14.95 after that? Why create anything other than a bare bones system when you're running a hype train through the crowed of consumers. Thing is a lot of us really arent the target audience anymore. So no we arent all idiots. But yea a large proportion of the playerbase is. This is the want it now generation. I am just not apart of it.
How'd you feel when you saw SOE's new "Free to play Your Way" slogan. As if you didn't already know it was your own choice to spend any money. I thought it was pretty condescending personally. But hey, thats just me.
Awesome video by the way.
Shame more games wont allow you to protest in such a fassion. Thats due to limited player choice.
limited to a small fee of 2.95
its all the choice you got now.
EDIT: Also i can guarantee 100% that we will see more MMORPG's Made as P2P games just specifically to go F2P. Grab the cash as soon as possible just so they can and roll over on the game. Throw the cash shop in there and come back every now and then with some more BS people keep calling content. These games know they suck. and with a contention plan like Free 2 Pay whos really even trying anymore. If these games even offered half the stuff they did before mainstream took over. we wouldn't be having this conversation.
It's like having DLC made before a game is released. They're ready for it. Things that actually used to be free no longer are. Pieces of the game left out just to outright charge you for it. Forget that. I wont be apart of it.
Uhmm... and why do you think I so fervently support free to play? Because the devs don't get to hype their game up and not deliver, because if they don't then they will be quite literally drawn and quartered by their own investors because of abysmal returns on investments.
Also what is with the 2.95 fee? You can protest however much you like in a F2P MMO because you can, even if outright banned on one account, register multiple accounts and let people know on their forums and spread the news around on other websites about what the devs are doing, take a cue from Darkfall: UO, that game's atrocious and we all know it, it'll likely sink if it isn't fixed prior to release, another example is SWTOR which even after going F2P is struggling for dear life but I doubt it will live past the IP contract renewal in a few years.
Free to play allows you the choice to try the game and decide if it is worth investing, if it is not you move on, you vote with your wallet, P2P and even B2P do not give you the choice, once you invest you've paid the devs and effectively given your vote away especially if it's, as you put it, a hyped up piece of garbage.
On a personal/tangential note: I've had beta access to SWTOR prior to its release and saw it was basically WoW-lite with Star Wars theme, I warned everyone I knew around me about that fact ( and the ones who were looking for SWG 2.0 or something not like WoW actually listened and either waited for reviews or outright cancelled their preorders waiting for reviews before purchasing) and submitted a beta report to Bioware stating that their game while decent and relatively polished was lacking any incentive to actually play it.... I never got another beta invite.
Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" (whether the cash-shop is in the game client which is bad, or out of the game client doesn't matter) you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.
What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword.
But after the gamification and simplification and pussification of gaming since .... 8 years ago. A new generation of players would never understand such argument but in the end I go back to this simple philosophy. Some people want this game and others wants a DIFFERENT game... there's nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But the problem is I don't get to play the game I want, it's always the OTHER game. Hence, why we come here to complain.
Opinion and damn pitifully argumented one. I agree with the move towards mass-market appeal since WoW (which FYI was 10 years ago almost) games have gotten a bit more easy but if you're having fun in a game it does not really matter if it's null sec EVE-Online or Hello Kitty Online, you are having fun and that's what a game is, a mode to have fun, so complain all you want you're not gonna see that many games cater your specific tastes because it is an MMO, you aren't important, a group of people isn't important, a healthy stable community is and if it is a community of only casual players... well your damn fault for being there.
As for the "immersion" breaking cash shop... unless it is pushed into your face like certain bad F2P games do it doesn't really matter, it's just another button on your "immersion" breaking UI. If the sword itself is widely available in-game or is a cheap to repair average high level sword in a game where items attrition at high rates it is not offering any gameplay altering advantages because there are better swords around which you only get by playing the game as for the Roleplay side of things... you have Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 roleplay servers and certain MMOs which also offer roleplay capabilities, do not enforce your own tastes onto others when your tastes are being catered to in certain areas, pick more wisely and learn to not bitch so much.
Your primary argument against F2P is about a scenario that does not exist save for maybe 2 or 3 of the 300+ F2P MMOs. Are you aware of that?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That line is not blurry it's crystal clear. Cha-Ching. The most annoying thing to me is claiming cosmetic items have no value when you put a price tag next to them. Now almost everything has a subscription and a cash shop and they call that Free to Play and life runs on rainbows and puppy dogs.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I do not have a problem with free to play per say, but rather, some common elements in free to play games. Here is a list of a few common problems I have with free to play models.
1) Gambling. Many free to play games force you to gamble if you want your item. Especially the ever so popular key to box of mysteries. I really feel terrible knowing that the only way to obtain something is to spend money and possibly get nothing or next to nothing in return.
2) Exponential advantage. Many free to play games say they are not pay to win because of the fact that you can get everything in game. What they don't tell you is that to get the BEST of anything your options are to farm said items for more hours than any working person (and in some cases simply impossible even for those who play 16 hours a day) can possibly ever acheive OR spend usually up to hundreds of dollars to just buy the items off the item store. This is especially common with crafting success items or items that prevent enhanced items from breaking. This problem is compouded by items that can be enhanced to effectiveness levels impossible to acheive ingame (due to time constraints) for users with bottomless wallets that can just keep buying crafting success / anti break items.
3) The ability to trade / sell auction house items. This basicly means that you can have everything you want in game immediatly if you have the money to spend. Want 1 000 000 gold on a game where the average player has 100g? Just buy thousands of dollars worth of cash shop items and put them on the auction house (even in a game that has only vanity items). This inflates the economy to the point were even players willing to spend a little money can't buy anything for a decent price because of the few very rich (real world money) players.
All in all, there is one basic rule I like to follow in free to play games; if I can get the max non-vanity advantage in a game for under 15$ per month, I am fine with the cash shop. If the deeper my wallet, the more gold/gear/exp or any other advantage I can get, then the game is pay to win in my eyes. Sadly, games that DO NOT give exponential advantage for real money are very rare!
And how do you know it was a "poor" implementation of F2P? Do you have the numbers for how much they've earned?
If you're going to try to point out a flaw of F2P, it's best to use any example other than mounts.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
For me personally it depends on the value someone gets. If I play Rift (for example), I spend a fixed amount per month, and I don't have to worry about anything. I'm not saying I have access to all of the content, but at least the sub feels worth the money if the game offers enough content/fun. I say this, because in F2P games, the value of items seems to be out of proportion. For 10 to 15 euros/dollars, you can get, lets say, a questpack or 2, or maybe a mount. If you're lucky a cosmetic item set. I understand you get the game for free, so publishers want to make money back. However, quite some publishers price their cash shop items very high.
I do play a lot of F2P games, and I like both models, only if the pricing is fair. I don't mind paying money at all to a company if I like their product, but a lot of (the F2P) companies tend to forget it's about making a quality and fun product.
There is nothing wrong with F2P. It has the advantage of everyone being able to try out the game and once youve tried it you can decide whether you want to drop money it. Unfortunately, the amount of money you're able to drop on it is so insane that it can quickly turn incredibly expensive.
It could be great, but once they get enough people playing they'll start squeezing the player base for as much money as they think they can get away with. Paying those bills, it's got to be done at some point in time.
One money grab after another, paying and paying for the illusion of getting ahead, that is often the reality of F2P games. And when they can't squeeze enough money out of the players anymore, then they'll just shut it down.
Know what you're getting yourself into with F2P game and quit before you get the feeling that you can't possibly quit now for this or that reason.
well free to play generally has a horrible community especially free to play pvp games. pve games might be different but f2p pvp games are horrible community. also most free to play games just suck and are a cash grab from the get go or are so grindy that you want to spend money just to get out of the grind, just go check out most korean games.
that said my preferred type of game is a sub fee game, unfortunately sub fee games are being made as free to play games now and charging a sub fee. companies are putting out a game with less than 30 days of content knowing they cant release any more for months and asking you to pay a box plus 15 bucks a month for what is essentially a single player game. you get more content out of some single player games than you get out of a mmo now a days. the mmo instead gives you two or three endgame dungeons and 4 different levels of gear that you have to grind alot to get, and each level gives you what, plus 5 to stats. this is how they intend to keep a customer paying each month until they can release 5 new missions or quests and another dungeon. we have taken that crap for so long some people think its normal to eat crap and continue to do it, not me.
for that reason and that reason alone i play free to play games, but i try to play free to play games that arent as obvious cash grabs. im not even playing a new mmo anymore, i play asherons call and ddo, soon to be neverwinter. we are just now seeing companies trying to make good free to play games over here in the states, so maybe they can make a good game that isnt about a cash grab and isnt a grindfest. to me if they make a good game the money will come whether it is sub or free to play, but they dont make good games anymore. it really makes me wonder if game devs even play games anymore.
This
/Signed
QFTYes
Well saidDeciding where to spend my $ on a game is not fun for me. I'd like a set fee per month. Let the game be the part that needs figuring out, not the cash shop.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
While it is not inherently a bad pracitce, it is often implemented poorly, especially in MMOS. I see free to play in a negative light for several reasons.
1. The transition from a subscription or otherwise front-side price model to free-to-play indicates the developer didn't understand the market, their product, or what their customers wanted. Take for instance, SWTOR. It's a game that should never, ever had been an MMO. It suffers from an identity crisis - trying to inherit the beautiful gameplay of its predecessors while attempting to grab the WoW clients. These are two starkly different game types, which require two very different price models. Next, consider Lord of the Rings Online. It was previously a subscription game that was profitable and enjoyable. New content came out fairly regularly and it boasted one the most mature and welcoming communties in the MMO world. Because of the success of DDO's transition, it was transitioned as well. However, it didn't have the episodic content that DDO had. Where I'm particularly bitter is having to buy old content after the transition. I bought the game (the content) and paid a subscription fee (for access). Of course, this subject is very contentious but that doesn't change the fact that I was once a paying customer. I, among many others, felt burned by this and other changes. Particularly, having seen the turbine points advertised everywhere completely ruined the feel of the game for me.
2. Free to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit LoTRO. When raid buffs and stat tomes came out, it created a rift between the players. If you wanted to take on the harder and more rewarding dungeons or raids, you needed buffs. It's acceptable to have buffs that increase leveling of something, cosmetics, or seasonal items. It is completely unacceptable to sell anything that puts other players ahead or renders players unable to play paid content. Furthermore, no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require money unlock. Once again, LoTRO requires free players to pay for horse travel. SWTOR charged for skill bars.
There are some games that have handled F2P well, like League of Legends. However, I think most F2P MMOs are not worth playing.
Why is that an issue? All online games have haves & have-nots. You don't belong to the ultra hard core raid guild, you don't get the best gear. You don't play 24/7, you have less gold than the guy who does.