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F2P ... Tell me whats wrong with it...

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  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Because, the developers deliberately build a road filled with potholes and then sell you bags of rubble to fill in the holes.

    I would rather the developers would develop the best game they can in terms of gameplay and then charge me a set fee to play it. That way if they want to succeed they are concentrating on improving the gameplay experience rather than producing a gimped version they can monetize.

    Are you being *forced* to purchase those bags?  Or can you simply find another game that is more to your taste?

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
      I doubt any of us here ACTUALLY believe F2P means absolutely FREE.

    yet about 90% of players MAKE IT so for them it's that way.

     

    what they believe doesn't really matter. it's only what they do.

     

    It can mean absoluely free for me if I want it to be. You (metaphorically, I'm talking about developers) can't stop me.

     

    and on such a shaky business model...things can go unstable quickly. And now I'm really not investing in something that's so unstable.

     

    see the issue ?

    League of Legends, World of Tanks, DDO, Age of Conan, stop me when your argument sinks completely. Good F2P games will never be shakey because people will love them and want to support them, that's why most of the crap F2Ps slowly die off while the decent to good ones live on (christ World of Tanks isn't even a MMO in the real sense of the word and its shakey as a game can get but it shot through the roof and turned Wargamming into an international player in the games world).

    I agree.

     

    problem is...are we talking "f2p" or "ideal f2p". because quoting 4 f2p's with a good model doesnt cover up the other 1,000.

     

    ideal f2p is an entirely different topic. and it comes down to "if it's so good I'd play it under f2p, b2p or p2p...because it's that good". I have no problem with a great and cheap f2p. the average f2p is not that way, though.

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  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

     

    If enjoyment is subjective how do we quantify?  Is limited bag space really a big/major issue to playing a game?

    Why do we care what other gamers do/buy?

    it's ideologic.

     

    why do we care what poachers in asia do to their elephants ?

     

    and ... why does it matter why do we care ?

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  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

     

    If enjoyment is subjective how do we quantify?  Is limited bag space really a big/major issue to playing a game?

    Why do we care what other gamers do/buy?

    it's ideologic.

     

    why do we care what poachers in asia do to their elephants ?

     

    and ... why does it matter why do we care ?

    Well Im more pragmatic.  My question was rhetorical.

    And if I dont care its not an issue nor cause to impact F2P.   Hence it comes down to choice/opinion (as opposed to it being a bad model or bad for the genre).

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  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by craftseeker

    Also from his profile "mmo experience limited to WoW and EVE",  both subscription games btw.

     

    wow's f2p to 20.

    eve can be played with in-game currency for ever.

     

    Well Im more pragmatic.  My question was rhetorical.

    And if I dont care its not an issue nor cause to impact F2P.   Hence it comes down to choice/opinion (as opposed to it being a bad model or bad for the genre).

     

    It wasn't rethorical. It was setting the ground for "the reason you care is meaningless therefore you caring is irrelevant. ". regardless, I agree it varies from individual to individual. absolutely.  problem is most players fall in the "pro", "con", "indifferent" categories. And when they start debating about it...it becomes a lot like "my god has a hammer, yours was nailed to a cross". It won't end well.

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  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
      I doubt any of us here ACTUALLY believe F2P means absolutely FREE.

    yet about 90% of players MAKE IT so for them it's that way.

     

    what they believe doesn't really matter. it's only what they do.

     

    It can mean absoluely free for me if I want it to be. You (metaphorically, I'm talking about developers) can't stop me.

     

    and on such a shaky business model...things can go unstable quickly. And now I'm really not investing in something that's so unstable.

     

    see the issue ?

    League of Legends, World of Tanks, DDO, Age of Conan, stop me when your argument sinks completely. Good F2P games will never be shakey because people will love them and want to support them, that's why most of the crap F2Ps slowly die off while the decent to good ones live on (christ World of Tanks isn't even a MMO in the real sense of the word and its shakey as a game can get but it shot through the roof and turned Wargamming into an international player in the games world).

    I agree.

     

    problem is...are we talking "f2p" or "ideal f2p". because quoting 4 f2p's with a good model doesnt cover up the other 1,000.

     

    ideal f2p is an entirely different topic. and it comes down to "if it's so good I'd play it under f2p, b2p or p2p...because it's that good". I have no problem with a great and cheap f2p. the average f2p is not that way, though.

    The difference between 'f2p' and 'ideal f2p' is implementation.

    F2P as model is neither good nor bad, its the perception of the game it covers.   If the game is bad F2P wont change that.

    I agree most older F2p games are cheaply made (though I have had some limited fun with them) - but overall I see the model evolving especially as AAA publishers begin to look and invest in the model.

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  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon

    What if the game is good? can f2p change that?

     

    gpotato says "yes we can".

     

    personally I have a very difficult time with the simple concept of ME giving things to MY CHARACTER. Shouldn't we be one and the same from a RP standpoint ? It's not my main issue, it's a very minor one in fact but ... can you relate to your character when at its core the game presents "it" as different than 'you' ?

     

    buying expansions and access is no problem in this sense since I'm not giving 'it' an expansion. i'm just opening the gates. but items, bags, stats, potions...that's the issue.

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,756Member Uncommon
    I dont really see anything wrong with it....The option to try games for free is very appealing....IMO its a much better business model than b2p or p2p....Theres jsut too many games out now to justify paying for each one......
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    I dont really see anything wrong with it....The option to try games for free is very appealing....IMO its a much better business model than b2p or p2p....Theres jsut too many games out now to justify paying for each one......

    but that's not F2P.

     

    you're describing "Freemium". or free trials which bigger P2P games have. I played a trial for WoW and for EvE. My investment wasnt blind.

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  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonPosts: 845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    What if the game is good? can f2p change that?

    gpotato says "yes we can".

    personally I have a very difficult time with the simple concept of ME giving things to MY CHARACTER. Shouldn't we be one and the same from a RP standpoint ? It's not my main issue, it's a very minor one in fact but ... can you relate to your character when at its core the game presents "it" as different than 'you' ?

    buying expansions and access is no problem in this sense since I'm not giving 'it' an expansion. i'm just opening the gates. but items, bags, stats, potions...that's the issue.

    You have a problem distinguishing between yourself and your level 85 paladin?  That sounds like a psychological problem if true. From a RP (role play) point of view your in game persona is supposed to be entirely seperate from your real life persona.  If you play multiple characters (in one or more than one game) each is supposed to be seperate and distinct from each other and your real life persona from a RP point of view.  
    I can relate to a variety of people and personas, not being able to relate to other personas is considered to be a little disturbed, not saying you are, just that it is something that would be concerning if it was true.

    BTW its interesting that you supported your F2P credentials by pointing out WoW is free to level 20 when you play a level 85 paladin.  Also you do not actually say you manage to pay your Eve subscription through actual in game activity, just that it is possible. Nor do you claim to actually play any free to pay game.  Makes your arguments kind of straw men really.

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon
    Instead of the dev team being focused on making the entire game engaging enough to keep people subbed, their focus becomes on how to engineer gameplay to drive people to the store.
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by craftseeker

    BTW its interesting that you supported your F2P credentials by pointing out WoW is free to level 20 when you play a level 85 paladin.  Also you do not actually say you manage to pay your Eve subscription through actual in game activity, just that it is possible. Nor do you claim to actually play any free to pay game.  Makes your arguments kind of straw men really.

    my paladin retire when my annual pass expired. I'm not playing WoW right now. It has nothing to do with subscription model.

     

    I actually don't use PLEX in eve for the exact same reason but looked at from the other direction.

     

    My character's money is for my character, in game. not for my personal expenses. I have a job for that. I have a problem sticking my hand into my character's pocket for real-life reasons. even if they involve ... well you get it. I simply prefer to pay the traditional way. I make that subscription money in an hour. for a month. It's not about the money.

     

    Now the 'free to play" games I played/play are/were: urban rivals, Travian and presently Halosphere2. I'm currently level 45 in halosphere2 and have access to everything without paying. So the cash shop doesn't bother me.

     

    ----------

     

    to sum it up I don't like RMTing, even if it's done with the actual company. it feels...I don't know. wasteful. I'll buy access to a new area that contains a dragon which drops a sword but i won't buy a sword. Maybe it makes no snse. /shrug.

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  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    What if the game is good? can f2p change that?

    gpotato says "yes we can".

    personally I have a very difficult time with the simple concept of ME giving things to MY CHARACTER. Shouldn't we be one and the same from a RP standpoint ? It's not my main issue, it's a very minor one in fact but ... can you relate to your character when at its core the game presents "it" as different than 'you' ?

    buying expansions and access is no problem in this sense since I'm not giving 'it' an expansion. i'm just opening the gates. but items, bags, stats, potions...that's the issue.

    This argument makes no sense to me. What does buying a bag, health potion, or plush backpack have to do with relating to your character? What it sounds like you meant to say was simply 'it breaks my immersion'. Which, i dunno, seems like kind of a weak argument, tbh. It's not unlike acusing a game of being 'immersion breaking', because it has a UI you need to go through in order to log in.

    I can't think of ANY game in which my character is defined by how much bag space, potions he has; or whether or not his backpack is a collectable. As far back as I can remember, what made your character unique was the class, actions, skills, and story you partook in, as well as your ability to relate to the story / environment that character was placed within.

    That's not to say that F2p can't be done wrong (and often is), but I just don't get the argument being presented here.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    Now the 'free to play" games I played/play are/were: urban rivals, Travian and presently Halosphere2. I'm currently level 45 in halosphere2 and have access to everything without paying. So the cash shop doesn't bother me.

    Now we can see why you have so many misconceptions about the F2P market as a whole. Limited experience. The market is vast and varied in concept, design and operation that is not restricted to what you know or think you know.

    Example: Atlantica Online is more a gamblers cash shop, nothing like what is in most F2P games. Yet amazingly enough the game was making a larger profit than all of Funcoms games combined during its peak years of 2008-2009, enough so that 6 years after its release the company was still worth enough to warrent a 175 million dollar buyout...and that wasnt a very good game.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • xpowderxxpowderx Radcliff, KYPosts: 2,131Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    ...because I'm not seeing it.  Open to all arguments but please try to stay logical and back them up.

    Looking to see if this is more a personal choice (opinion) or actually a bonafide benefit (or constraint) to the player.

    Whats your view?

    Go!

    There is no benefit to a F2P player. At one point or another he/she must buy something. Or they can stay gimped forever :-D

    Logically if a mmorpg was truly free to play it would not last long or would depend on donations to keep its server up.

     

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon

    The number one reason is because it's marketing. See quotes below and a paper you can read about it beyond the first paragraph quotes I took. I don't want a game that is built around ways to sell me more, to annoy me with popups and offers, to market me in my fantasy game and to make my gameplay uncomfortable if I don't comply.

     

    The second reason is we already have people in society who have little and those that have more financially. I would rather not be reminded of that in games. I like to look at everyone as equal with all the ability to improve as each other - the good old American Dream - you output effort, you gain results.

     

    The third reason - micro-transaction shops will let you buy as much as you want. Subscription games stop and say this is what is fair for us to operate. If you can tell me upfront what you need and I can pay it, we can avoid Number 1 altogether. You can make an enjoyable game and I can enjoy it. It also helps restrict people with gambling problems or people that wouldn't buy pampers to afford some virtual perk. I don't want to be party to systems that would take advantage of people doing bad in real life just to show off in their virtual life pretending all is well - that would be enabling their offerings to not speak against it.

     


    Electronic copy available at: http://ssrn.com/abstract=1443907


    "Int. Journal of Business Science and Applied Management, Volume 5, Issue 1, 2010

    Game design as marketing: How game mechanics create demand for virtual goods

    Juho Hamari
    Helsinki Institute for Information Technology

    5 MECHANICS THAT DRIVE DESIRABILITY OF VIRTUAL GOODS

    5.1 Item Degradation
    In some virtual worlds, virtual items degrade with time or usage, sometimes to the extent of vanishing completely.
    ...
    In marketing terms, degradation is closely analogous to contrived durability, as the operator controls exactly when and how the item ceases to function or exist.

    5.2 Inconvenient Gameplay Elements
    Several free-to-play MMO operators sell user interface (UI) enhancements to generate revenues. This implies that some gameplay or interface elements have been intentionally designed to be somewhat inconvenient, at least from the point of view of an advanced user. The enhancements range from actual virtual items to non-item power-ups and UI upgrades. Some services provide additional advantages over other players,

    5.3 Mediums of Exchange
    In MMOs and other online hangouts, various points, credits and currencies are used as mediums of exchange in purchases and transactions, and also as rewards for accomplishments. In most free-to-play games, users first buy credits with which they buy the actual virtual items. Credits can also sometimes act as a status indicator and thus can be a desirable virtual asset themselves. In this section, we concentrate on the use of credits as a medium of exchange, and how they can be used to encourage demand.

    5.4 Inventory Mechanics
    Limited inventory space is often used as a gameplay element, but it can also be a means to increase sales.

    5.5 Special Occasions
    Christmas, Halloween, birthdays and other special occasions have been actively used by virtual world operators to promote virtual item sales. Occasions that traditionally provoke buying behaviour are simulated and referenced so that the same effect may be achieved in the virtual setting.

    5.6 Artificial Scarcity
    Scarcity is a common strategy in traditional marketing. It has been used as an indicator of high quality and thus to justify premium prices (Kotler and Keller 2006).
    ...
    Sulake also introduces collectible items, which are sold only for a limited time.
    ...
    In most performance-oriented MMOs, scarcity is more commonly achieved by making certain items difficult to obtain through gameplay. Most commonly, these rare items drop from slain monsters. Either the rate at which the rare items are dropped is small, or the monsters that have to be slain are hard to come by and slay.

    5.7 Alterations to Existing Content
    One way of addressing the long-term attractiveness of an MMO and the items sold inside it is to introduce regular updates and to add new, meaningful content. At the same time, the new content devalues the existing content and items, hence making the new content and items more desirable to obtain."


     

     

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon

    we're circling the problem.

     

    f2p isn't the issue. the cash shop is.

     

    a f2p without a cash shop like Greed Monger promises I would have no problem with.

     

    Maybe because I'm an EVE player, I feel storage (fixed and mobile) space is part of a character. In Eve, each ship has its unique cargo size and it's often very relevant. how you fly a stealth bomber for example who has to carry those huge bombs, and barely has room for torpedoes...matters.

     

    the fact that a f2p char stores a little and one that pays stores a lot isn't a problem in most games. EQ2 aside. The problem is someone at some point spent time developing the code that shrinks that storage space for a f2p character by implementing bag limits.

     

    they DEVELOPED LIMITATIONS. They literarly...developed...limitations.

     

    that to me is disturbing. If it comes out that way out the gate its one thing. When you go back and re-squeeze it...then it gets ugly.

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  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    the fact that a f2p char stores a little and one that pays stores a lot isn't a problem in most games. EQ2 aside. The problem is someone at some point spent time developing the code that shrinks that storage space for a f2p character by implementing bag limits.

     

    they DEVELOPED LIMITATIONS. They literarly...developed...limitations.

     

    that to me is disturbing. If it comes out that way out the gate its one thing. When you go back and re-squeeze it...then it gets ugly.

     That is a FARSE.

    It doesnt matter if a game is F2P, B2P or P2P, they have bag size limits. The only difference is that one is giving you the illusion of being able to INCREASE the size, the other does not by making it so you can NEVER increase the size at all beyond what they give you.

    Seriously, name me the P2P games that allow unlimited storage...you are INVENTING reasons to hate F2P...worse yet, you are hating for having to spend...$2 for a PERM increase in bag size to defend games that charge $15 a month EVERY month for giving you what you end up with after spending pocket change lol.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon

    unlimited storage...

     

    if I say "eve" ill you say "no storage can ever be infinite due to the definition of infinity" ?

     

    has anyone ever filled one single Station Container in eve? I mean you can have as many of them as you want but has anyone ever filled ONE of them ?

     

     

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  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    unlimited storage...

     

    if I say "eve" ill you say "no storage can ever be infinite due to the definition of infinity" ?

     

    has anyone ever filled one single Station Container in eve? I mean you can have as many of them as you want but has anyone ever filled ONE of them ?

     

     

    So yet again you base your entire argument on the very very few games you have played and cannot seem to add any examples from outside it.

    Sadly, the world of MMOs is not that small and most of us have sampled a larger portion of it and will not limit ourselves to a small island off the coast of nowhere. But I do thank you for at least coming close to a refute this time.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    has anyone ever filled one single Station Container in eve? I mean you can have as many of them as you want but has anyone ever filled ONE of them ?
     

    *raises hand*  Yes.

    ( I didn't fill the max volume, but I managed to hit the ceiling on the number of different items )

     

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs 

     

    So yet again you base your entire argument on the very very few games you have played and cannot seem to add any examples from outside it.

    well...yeah.

     

    I mean MY argument is obviously derived from my experiences and can't add examples from outside my experience.

     

    I'm not sure what's unusual or unexpected here.

     

    but yes, my experience is very limited. I can't deny that. I was lucky enough to stick for very long to the two MMOs I've 'seriously' played. between WoW and EVE I have covered my 'me time' between 2006 and 2013. I think that's not too bad.

     

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  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    What if the game is good? can f2p change that?

     

    gpotato says "yes we can".

     

    personally I have a very difficult time with the simple concept of ME giving things to MY CHARACTER. Shouldn't we be one and the same from a RP standpoint ? It's not my main issue, it's a very minor one in fact but ... can you relate to your character when at its core the game presents "it" as different than 'you' ?

     

    buying expansions and access is no problem in this sense since I'm not giving 'it' an expansion. i'm just opening the gates. but items, bags, stats, potions...that's the issue.

    Well if the game is good (from a personal perspective) it would probably support the reason to sub.  Meaning if it had a sub I would probably pay it because I would feel Im getting my money's worth.  Would F2P change that?  Good question.  It depends on the implementation.  If the content I enjoy are part of the F2P portion I would question the need to continue the sub (and put that money elsewhere... such as a new or other MMO).

    A developer cant determine what F2P can change for me.  I make that decision based on whats offered versus how much they want me to pay for it.

    I have no interest in how your character recieved things. When I see you in the game I dont ponder 'Wow, Where did he get that item'  Granted maybe others do it.  So if you purchased it or earned it in a dungeon doesnt change how I feel about the game and if I enjoy it.  Well Role Play to me just means I play a role when I play.  I cant enforce that role on others or place their role/character in my world.  It sounds nice but hard to see how effective it would be considering you cant control the other players in the game.  To me thats part of the fun of an MMO that I cant predict what another player would do or what their intentions are.

    Yes I say there are different ways to role play. One way is to play as a character in a game.  The character is your avatar and is a representation of my actions in the game.  Watching that avatar grow, change and achieve is fun.  But its more of an arcade role play rather than a realistic/virtual world role play.  Another way is like Everquest II.  This is closer to your definition where the character is me.  But EQ2 allows this level of immersion due to the level of content and detail in the game giving me devices to get lost in.  So to me the level of role play or immersion is directly related to how the game delivers the content.  The more detailed the more immersive.  But in either case what another character does in the world doesnt take me out of character or  ruin my fun.  I just accept it as another part of the world like it or not.

    I can agree somewhat with items.  I personally dont buy XP boosters, revive vials and the such.  But I have been known to buy the occassional bag and it didnt wear on my conscience. It was just another means to whatever goal I was trying to obtain at the moment.  I cant get so deep into a game that I deny myself fun, which makes it ok for me to use things in a cash shop if I deem them necessary.

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  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    we're circling the problem.

     

    f2p isn't the issue. the cash shop is.

     

    a f2p without a cash shop like Greed Monger promises I would have no problem with.

     

    Maybe because I'm an EVE player, I feel storage (fixed and mobile) space is part of a character. In Eve, each ship has its unique cargo size and it's often very relevant. how you fly a stealth bomber for example who has to carry those huge bombs, and barely has room for torpedoes...matters.

     

    the fact that a f2p char stores a little and one that pays stores a lot isn't a problem in most games. EQ2 aside. The problem is someone at some point spent time developing the code that shrinks that storage space for a f2p character by implementing bag limits.

     

    they DEVELOPED LIMITATIONS. They literarly...developed...limitations.

     

    that to me is disturbing. If it comes out that way out the gate its one thing. When you go back and re-squeeze it...then it gets ugly.

    Good point lets talk cash shops.  Assuming we are in pretty much agreement that F2P is subjective but in all is not a bad thing in and of itself but could have a bad implementation.

    I dont think I've played a F2P without a cash shop.  Someone give me an example if they have one.  Would like to check it out.

    I dont have issues with cash shops but again its a balancing act.  If I feel the prices are too high for what they are offering I begin to question the motives of the game.  So its sensitive.  I haven't seen P2W items in Cash Shops but then again I dont believe in P2W.  Now someone can probably come up with some remote example where actual P2W items are actually sold in a cash shop.  But even in that example I would question the game.  If I played a game where the only way I could proceed (I dont see how you 'win' a MMO) was to purchase something I felt should be in the world... I simply boycott that game.  No sub. No cash shop money.  If they can be financed by others dropping millions to play?  More power to them.  I'm more concerned with what I enjoy playing rather than what other gamers are doing.

    What's disturbing about bag limits?  At some point we have to separate the minutiae from a real problem.  Yes they do limit bag space and probably a ton of other stuff if I sat and really thought about it.  But at somepoint it becomes nitpicking.

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  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon

    I believe a f2p without a CS is still a theoretical concept.

     

    Greed Monger promissed it but ... it's not out yet, nor anywhere near a beta.

     

    I always imagined a Grand Theft Auto - like mmo with bilboards in the city with various real-life company logos like coca cola or samsung... afterall real cities really have those logos already. it'd fit in just fine. in fact it'd ADD to the game instead of distract.

     

    and the game could be financed by virtual ads like those.

     

    does this exist yet? No.

     

    a FFA PVP with territorial conquest and player-owned and built cities in a GTA universe remains the ultimate fantasy for me...:)

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